|
|
| word.
i have always had trouble connecting with God through practical christian biblical teachings. it just isnt easy for me to get on my knees and pray or to exhibit a life of worship. this past year i have done yoga to help myself focus on God.
i find that with simple asanas and meditation on a basis of fundamental yoga stuff, i recieve complete restoration in Jesus Christ and the holy spirit he promises to everyone who believes.
instead of emptying- i find God filling me with his sprirt.
helps me get through everyday life.
and helps me exhibit a life of worship.
yoga is awesome, and i just started this thread to see if anyone else is experiencing Gods help through yoga like i am.
peace out | |
| | |
| Nope.
But I think it's fabulous you are!
I kind of look at the god thing like a romance. And a yoga asana, for that matter: The more one seeks, the fast it runs.
I figure it it happens, I'll just be surprised and run with it.
I'm grateful that yoga does not honor an external god, but is monastic. It helps a lot of people come to yoga, which can definitely enhance the spiritual aspect of their faith without conflict.
Interesting question. 
Christine | |
| | |
| Well, I believe we are all God and when we connect with our spirit we connect to God. Yoga helps us connects with our true self.
Vero | |
| | |
| That's great that you are having such a spiritual experience with your yoga. It is certainly a much different type of experience than what one gets through organized religion, so much more personal without all the dogma and trappings of "religion".
I think it's very important for us all to recognize that we (the human race) are all "one" and interconnected. In doing that, we need to be tolerant and respectful of people of different faiths. I think yoga and meditation can be applied to most any faith.
Have you read any of the information available that compares the sayings of Jesus to those of Buddha? It's really facinating. I have no idea what that similarity means - one can only wonder.
Namaste | |
| | |
| I invoke th Lord's name every practice--asking him to help me get through it primarily.
adroitragedy - 2004-03-29 6:57 PM
word.
i have always had trouble connecting with God through practical christian biblical teachings. it just isnt easy for me to get on my knees and pray or to exhibit a life of worship. this past year i have done yoga to help myself focus on God.
i find that with simple asanas and meditation on a basis of fundamental yoga stuff, i recieve complete restoration in Jesus Christ and the holy spirit he promises to everyone who believes.
instead of emptying- i find God filling me with his sprirt.
helps me get through everyday life.
and helps me exhibit a life of worship.
yoga is awesome, and i just started this thread to see if anyone else is experiencing Gods help through yoga like i am.
peace out | |
| | |
| Kathy, I agree with you about human being all "one". And I think the reason Budda and Jesus teachings are similar is because they taught about spirituality, not about religion. If you ask me organized religion has nothing to do with spirituality.
Vero | |
| | |
| yep. for me its all about relationship-
Jesus yelled at the religiousity of the biblical period, and we should too. God does not want us to make him dogmatic, he would much rather see us employ the gift of life in everyday ways as well as sprituality. i believe in Jesus and I follow his teachings as well as the law of the old testament, but without faith and relationshp it is all for vain.
i am happy that i am able to use yoga as a catalyst for God to move inside of me. | |
| | |
|  I have done many a researches, on yoga. And the backround of it has nothing to do with God!n Although it is very relaxing don't confuse it for something spiritual connected with Christ. Of course there are people that have changed some things or idea of yoga to make it useable with christian beliefs ! , because of the cultural similarities between Modern Hinduism and Mehrgarh, a neolithic settlement (in what is now Afghanistan). In fact, much of Hinduism's ideas, rituals and symbols of today appear to have their roots in this shamanistic culture of Mehrgahr. Soo as u can see it has nothing to do with God. ALthough it has very good relaxing and healthy praticalness to it.c
Bye | |
| | |
| Hey Buddy Yo: I respect you, but you need a little correction. a) it is not true that Yoga has not much to do with God, as per your research. Refer to Patanjali Yoga Aphorisms, Chapter 1: Isvarapranidhanad Va. Va here does not mean OR as it is translated by many, especially Western Translators. Sanskrit has contextual meaning. Va here means ONLY. Thus, the aphorism means ONLY by surrender to the Will of God, one attains Samadhi, which is the main topic of the first Chapter.
b) The problem is caused by the fact that people define God as per their background. Patanjali has defined God, just following the above mentioned aphorism. Almost all definitions of God inYoga and Hindu are Non Sectarian, meaning NON fanatic. So, that way Yoga and Hinduism look separated, and also Yoga and God may look separated. In fanatic Christianity, God is equated to Jesus Christ or whatever related stuff. There is NO question that this is Wrong, because God existed before and shall exist forever. Also, this has created many an inhuman instances in the entire world as can be seen even today.
c) As for the original questioner: You are truely blessed to have a Spiritual Experience in Yoga. Please continue it with an open ness to evolve more. May the True God bless you.
Neel Kulkarni www.authenticyoga.org | |
| | |
| Hi and welcome adroitragedy in our little cuddly community of virtual yogis.
I have absolutely no clue about any religions or gods in any way. So I also had no experiences with finding god in that sense. If you could restore your believe in christ good for you!
That said I must admit that since I'm doing yoga I feel much more alive, more aware of myself, of nature, of faith and all that. Also I feel very thankful just for the fact to be alive. I don't take many things for granted anymore and are more open for spiritual concepts. If there is anybody responsible for all that (life and stuff) I would love to go down on my knees and thank him personally. But since I haven't figured out yet, whoever I have to thank for that gift I just leave it 
| |
| | |
| This message is to those who believe that you can recieve a higher state of consciousness by blocking out thoughts, people, and your surroundings through meditation. The ONLY way to combat the pressures of life is to have a personal relationship with the LORD, JESUS CHRIST!! There are many of you who believe in HIM but deny the power that HE has. Let me let u know that HE is that only true and mighty power that we must rely on to get through this life. Of course there are going to be trials, sorrows and troubles but if we take our problems to the SON OF THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD, we WILL have the peace that passes all understanding. BELIEVE ME. GOD AND JESUS, who are one in the same, have changed my life. I was a weed-smoking, homosexual. But thanks be to the MOST HIGH that I don't have to be high!!! | |
| | |
|
I respect all your ideas but I don’t believe in any Gods.! But I believe in myself and my mind., If I can improve my mind I can achieve lot of things . If not. No way. I think God is just a Matrix.
| |
| | |
| I am very eager to hear more feedback from Christian yogis & yoginis as to how your practice relates to and strengthens your faith. I am not a Christian (I believe there's a higher power, but I don't relate to any particular organized religion), but I teach in a very STRONG Christian community. I'm nervous discussing the spiritual aspects in class because some still fear yoga is some "weird religion" that they must subscribe to in order to do the asanas. Better to let them discover the spiritual benefits on their own? I want to show them that yoga strengthens one's faith no matter what the belief system, but I don't want to scare anyone off by sounding like a new-age whacko!
Please, please share your thoughts on this! | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| >>blocking out thoughts, people, and your surroundings through meditation.<<
See, this is where things go so very wrong. What is described in this post is NOT meditation! It is not helpful to anyone to criticize a practice one has no personal knowledge or apparetnly even a basic understanding of. And it is important to know that (and this has been discussed here before) there are highly respected and valid methods of meditation in Christian traditions. In fact, I believe the phrase >>the peace that passes all understanding<< was used to describe the experience of Christian meditation. It would really, really help this sad world if everyone had a more solid understanding of their own religion.
>>have a personal relationship with the LORD<< This may be the right answer for you, but please do not presume to know what is best for me or anyone else.
And I must ask, since you say you were once a weed smoking homosexual and now you don't have to be high anymore, are you still a homosexual? And if not, please let us know how that works out for you... | |
| | |
| Ok. Warning: Small essay follows:
But first...
Bless your soul, Jesus Chick. I'm glad you've found something in which to place your faith. Make certain you're not replacing one addiction with another.
Jesus Chick, you've fallen prey to one of the sad assumptions people new to a faith or activity often make. What makes you assume that anyone here or practicing yoga doesn't have a relationship with the LORD? Just because you recently came to that particular belief, don't assume others weren't already there or ever actually lost their faith. You're a newbie to this, girlie. Don't presume. Check your doctrine, your delivery, and your assumptions.
Since I've seldom met people as judgmental and condemning as born again or late coming Christians, reformed smokers or people who discover exercise late in life, I will wish you the best and frankly, hope you leave others with your ideas, vs. battering them with your newly-found faith. Dearheart, even the church (yes, EVEN) uses meditation to grow closer to God. Why do you think Moses was in the desert, for example? Why do saints, yes Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Shamanistic, Shinto and Islamic ones, spent time in caves or away from society? Remove themselves from earthly distractions such as indulgence in sex, food, and other small pleasures? Some even work their bodies into that state of ecstasy that self-flagellation brings. Yes, even followers of Christ. Before you preach, learn.
Now....
As far as how to discuss yoga in relation to any faith? It can be tough when religious leaders are screaming that yoga is a distraction or a path to downfall. I teach at an El Salvadorian clinic, where the ladies asked to have a class so we could discuss this. I was a little apprehensive, but it worked out to be very interesting.
My own statements are that although yoga is a method the Hindu faith uses to calm the body for the study of God (meditation), yoga itself does not recognize an external God, which is why the church(es) preach that yoga is a bad thing.
However, I do remind them that like the church(es), yoga teaches us to believe in the God/Spirit of the Divine within. Yoga teaches us to follow rules for living or "commandments", which in the form of yamas and niyamas, are simply the 10 commandments of Moses with different wording. Given the fact that the practice of yoga is believed to have been around for 6000 years, it's not a far stretch to think that young faiths such as Christianity and all its sects have actually expanded upon and adopted those initially passed along from the Hindu faith. And don't forget that Hinduism has its roots in Buddhism, just as Christianity stems from the Islamic and Jewish faiths. Anyway, every organized faith has their rules for living, as does yoga. Yoga and organized faiths simply ask you to try to live a good life and do the right thing while caring for others before ourselves.
I had one young lady, a med student, tell me she couldn't do yoga because her priest told her yoga practitioners were trying to steal her soul. I laughed kind of sadly, and told her I was having enough trouble taking care of my own soul, what would I ever do with another? I also asked if she felt threatened when I centered, asking them to think good thoughts (vs. saying 'prayers') for someone or the universe out there? She said slowly "nooooo..." I simply stated that yoga is a wonderful method to stretch, to calm the body while equalizing the energies in the body for easier movement and better health, and a way to release tension and stress so we could focus on things that were actually important in the scope of life. If that happened to be then prayers to her spiritual leader, Jesus, Buddha or working out a grocery list? Hopefully she could then do it with better clarity and a more pure intention, since she might no longer be distracted with the worries of the day.
So it's important to be sensitive to the fears né ignorance perpetuated by those who really don't know. Anything that might take revenue or attendance away from a collection plate also worries struggling churches. That doesn't have to be our issue, since we can comfortably encourage people to honor their spiritual path while doing something good for their bodies and mind. Yoga doesn't have to be anyone's spiritual path, given the fact that Yoga, in the form of asana, is not a spiritual path.
I had a friend who was going to teach in a Baptist church here in DC. There was a lot of hoo-ha about tolerating yoga in the church. She had to meet with the Church council first. Their initial question was, "So, Gayle. What God do you believe in?"
She responded, surprised (she said), and said, "Why, I thought there was only one!?"
The yoga classes were held with full endorsement of the council. I think she might have given them a small boot in the butt to have more confidence in their own faith! If you fear other faiths' Gods or teachings, doesn't that indicate a small crack in your own belief system? I digress.
My point is that we can't go out there trying to beat down others' fears, but we can lead by gentle example. If someone wants to close their eyes and say a prayer, hail Mary, or even Om "Ahhhhhmen" instead? Why not? OTOH, "In the beginning there was the Word and the word was ...?"
But don't fight the tide. Incorporate what makes your students feel comfortable, because yoga is not a threat unless we try to pound someone with our own ideas and spiritual path, such as Jesus Chick has come to share with us. Christianity, in theory and origin is a lovely, all-encompassing faith. It's only men and how it's been twisted over the years that has caused it to become judgmental, EXcluding and d@mning. Think how we react when we find missionaries at our door? We're not that, yoga's not that, and Christianity can evangelize wherever it wants. Sorry. I digress again.
Simply teach from the heart. Be gentle with your students' concerns. Encourage them to discuss them in class. Be open. Be tolerant. Be a gentle example of acceptance and caring for other human beings. Most of all, and pardon the pun, be flexible with how you address the concerns you encounter.
Edited by YogaDancer 2005-02-03 10:39 AM
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| As always, well put Christine. Thank goodness (or the god of your choice...) someone here can type faster than me and give more complete replies! Just a small note, I think you might have the Hindu/Buddhist connection backwards - isn't it Buddhism growing out of Hinduism? I am trying to remember Neel's generous teachings....
I LOVE your story about your friend Gayle!!! Good for her and GOOD for that church for being open minded. Perhaps there is some hope in this world after all  | |
| | |
| :lol
Tourist you could be right. My head is spinning with these darned taxes. I got an extension to post by tomorrow, but I'm still whirling.
I was also trying to post calmly without showing the disgust I still feel.
I hope I was able to accomplish at leat that!
And I do type quickly. Just give me a glass of wine and watch that speed double, too. All while preforming brain surgery, of course.
c. | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | tourist - 2005-02-03 10:37 AM
Just a small note, I think you might have the Hindu/Buddhist connection backwards - isn't it Buddhism growing out of Hinduism? I am trying to remember Neel's generous teachings....
Some will tell you that Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu.
So far as god and yoga, I think of god as Ishwara but I often focus on his form as Shiva.
Shiva was the author of yoga, after all, and I never practice without acknowledging the
gift.
| |
| | |
| "just as Christianity stems from the Islamic and Jewish faiths."
I think it would be more correct to say that Christianity and Islam stem from Judaism.
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all derived (in that temporal order) from Abraham (Ibrahim), who lived around 1500-2000 (BCE). Each of those religions acknowledges the same God, the God of Abraham. The name of God is given, in the Bible, as: I am. People, from those religions, pronounce that, spell it, or give it appellation differently, depending on language: Yahweh, Elohim, Lord, God, Allah.
Abraham was married to Sarah and had a son Isaac. Abraham also had another son, Ishmael, out of legal wedlock, by his mistress, Hagar. Isaac and Ishmael are then half-brothers. Jesus is said to be descended from Abraham thru Isaac, and, Mohammed to be descended from Abraham thru Ishmael. Jesus and Mohammed both are considered prophets according to Islam.
Christianity started with Jesus (30 CE) and Islam started with Mohammed (600 CE). Christianity and Islam in one sense are religious siblings.
| |
| | |
| Thank you, MichaelJ, for being able to speak more intelligently about this, and in a less riled fasion.
I must admit that my religious education in Christianity is (spare me the PC hoo-ha when I say this) tainted by my very fundamental Episcopalian background. Although I did have religion classes in the 70s to complete a history degree, they were not in Western religions.
I think, however, my point is that there are other faiths that walk the same path, long before Christianity came on the scene. "different" does not mean "wrong." Right?
Christine | |
| | |
| Christine, thank you for putting all that so well!
That reminded me of a cute story. When I first moved to my uber-conservative god-fearing town, I was volunteering at an art fair. Somehow the city had scheduled a local church's "Christian Men's Breakfast" in the same park on the same day, and the artists (being a bunch of long-haired liberal free spirits, of course) were very concerned about what this group was going to think. Halfway through the day, the man in charge of the Men's Breakfast asked to speak with the person in charge of the art fair. The artist was shaking in his shoes, ready for some kind of verbal combat. And it turned out that all he wanted to say was "I hope the city will schedule us together again next year, that way we can bring enough breakfast for everyone and help you set up!"
We had no problems with the men or their religion, but we pre-judged them simply based on our fear of THEM judging US - which they weren't doing! Talk about a lesson learned! | |
| | |
| Just shows to go 'ya that we're all human and full of foibles.
All great works teach us not to pass judgement, because who are we, right?
Guess that's a tough one to learn!
Christine | |
| | |
| Christian messages can make powerful yoga mantras
Beth Nielsen Chapman's Hymns album has a wonderful song that can be used by all faiths.
It simply repeats the phrase
Dona Nobis Pachem, Pachem.
Let us be grateful for the gift of peace.
Edited by MrD 2005-02-03 8:38 PM
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | I think that it translates simply as "Give us peace":
Dona (give...imperative tense) nobis (to us...genative case) pacem (peace)
but I'm reaching back through the years to my Latin.
Here's something similar in Sanskrit:
Mangala murti maruta nandana
Sakala amangala mulani kandana
It referes to Hanuman..."Embodiment of mercy, born of the wind
pull up our sorrows, by the root and bulb" roughly. (If anyone reading
can fine tune the translation, that would be great.) I love this chant.
| |
| | |
| Dear Brother Bay Guy:
Translation with corrected wording, requested by you is at the bottom.
But, to suppliment what you wrote about Buddha, Vishnu, and Ishwara.: Ishwara is the all pervading God Hood which is formless in the Potentiality and becomes perceptible through the nature as multitude. All pervading means - visham (universe) vyapnoti (pervades) iti (qualified as). vishwam vyapnoti it VishnuH that is same as Vishnu. Vishnu is the ONE godhood which is same as Allah or God in Christianity.
Therefore, all major full incarnations in India are Vishnu coming down in a human form to help others. The Buddha the Gautama was the 9th one, and then Kalanki the 10th will be last in this Cycle of creation.
Brahma (NOT brahman, which is the formless reality) and Shiva are the aspect of Vishnu. So, as such Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are the trinity aspect of the same God hood.
The Aspect Shiva of Vishnu is one which is origin of Yoga Science.
Now, coming to your chant:
mangalamoorati marutananadana
sakala amangalamoolanikandana
mangala - auspicious,
murti - one with the form
maruta - God Wind (same as prakritilaya in Patanjali, the one with samadhi who joined the nature)
nandana - son
sakala - the entire
amangala - inauspicious or harmful
moola - root
nikandana - distroyer
I am sure you can make the entire translation with this.
Neel | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Neel,
You seem to know quite a bit about Hinduism...I'm new to this forum and I thinking you must be Indian. I love reading all your posts. Anyway, my husband is Indian/Nepali and I've been studying Hinduism and Buddhism for quite some time now and learning Hindi from him. We spend lots of time in the Hindu Temple. I've noticed that it's very hard for the Western mind to truely actually grasp the concept of Hinduism/Buddhism because of this culture and the Christian background. I think to fully grasp it and apply it to your life.. your upbringing has to be totally revamped - another words you have to redo your thinking process about God and your relationship to God, and CLEARLY understand that and not be in Confict with it. Not only about God, but about nature, the earth and our relationship to it as well. Did I also mention the elements too. This stuff is very powerful and yet people either take it too seriously or not serious enough. I see this all the time in Yoga studios and new age groups and even in Buddhist Centers. It is so hard to mix Christianity's rigid thinking with Hinduism...but you can see the similarities and grasp the pure essences of Christianity or any other religion and the teachings of Jesus Christ - and this ain't about preaching the gospel and telling all your friends - it is a very subtle and personal thing. You have to start with a clean slate with no residue. Kind of like a purification process. I think this is where your personal Guru comes in handy and understanding that concept even more very well without the conflicts. Then, after all of the above and then some happens, THAT IS WHEN GOD IS PRESENT and there are no questions that need to be answered and there is no more self doubt - nothing. Even in India - the Hindu Kingdom there are still people trying to get this because afterall that is why we are all here - self realization. New generations are coming along in every culture but especially in India and Nepal that aren't being taught and the culture is being lost due to modern civilization. The lucky part about being raised in a culture that supports this concept is truely what I call a blessing because you have support around you if your lucky to be born into a nice family that is spiritually blessed or a country that is Hindu/Buddhist, etc. I was fortunate enough to be spiritually blessed by my Mother and Father - I was able to remember who I was, then God found me, I didn't go searching for it - it just happened and it has been a process or as some would say a journey. I guess that goes with the saying "When the student is ready, the Teacher appears" and don't give up if it hasn't happened - because it will. My experience and observation has been that more and more Diversity has come to the US, therefore making it so much easier to practice and even find God and our personal Gurus. When Christianity was more dominate in the US 200 years and even compared to a mere 50 years and even the last 10 years, look at how our country was..we have come a long way and Thank God for Yoga, Hinduism, Buddhism...may the Dharma spread in whatever form. The white men killed God when they tortured the Native Americans....its nice to see God is forgiving and we getting another chance - may that be the case forever and ever!!
Anyway, this could become a book and there are so many aspects of God. All religions have a path to God....some are just more skillful than others. The reason I like Hinduism is because it is so complete and its easy to relate to and there seems to be more willing Hindus and Buddhist sharing the knowledge without the strings attached, well in some places no strings and it doesn't cost you a fortune. My understanding of the Dieties are that they are merely aids - they are all embodiments of God. Buddha and Jesus = Vishnu. Brahma never incarnated on earth and that is another page of typing, and Shiva has no form and came into the form of his devotee/best friend, which is why they have the Shivalingum. and YES, Buddhism came from Hinduism because Buddha was a Hindu and he didn't like what was going on between the Brahmins (they were disagreeing about something as humans do when they are organizing, yes even in temples) during that time period and left the temple and went out and became enlightened on his own - which I think anyone could do if they applied themself and could find a nice Boddhi tree:~) Everyone adored Buddha and his teachings and started their own religion called Buddhism. Then it spread through the incarnation of Padmasambava into Tibet and then it went to China and Japan and talk about spreading the Dharma. Good night and thanks for reading part of my novel. Om Nama Shivia - Bruce I'm with ya on that one about asking God to please get me through till that next Asana - you are too funny!! | |
| | |
| Bad guy, You are accurate on the strict sense of the works, I checked in 4 latin dictionaries online, and find it to be a very rich language with a lot of nuances on the words. I was trying to capture the sense, not the strict definition of the words. Sorry, but I've learned that strict translations may not convey the real sense of the word from my living in a foreign country for a few years.
It's a powerful mantra with either translation.
-----------------------------
In either case a book called "American Yoga" has a small biography of Gary Kraftsow. In that he said "Yoga is really nonsectarian ... and it may not be appropriate to ask a devout Christian to do Hindu Chants. The ability to help a person of deep Catholic or Jewish faith -- or someone who is an athiest to make a spiritual connection increases tremendously if you adapt the practices to that person." Page 152.
His training was from TKV Desikachar (Viniyoga) the son of T. Krishnamancharya.
Edited by MrD 2005-02-04 1:46 AM
| |
| | |
| jeansyoga - 2005-02-03 6:27 AM
I am very eager to hear more feedback from Christian yogis & yoginis as to how your practice relates to and strengthens your faith. I am not a Christian (I believe there's a higher power, but I don't relate to any particular organized religion), but I teach in a very STRONG Christian community. I'm nervous discussing the spiritual aspects in class because some still fear yoga is some "weird religion" that they must subscribe to in order to do the asanas. Better to let them discover the spiritual benefits on their own? I want to show them that yoga strengthens one's faith no matter what the belief system, but I don't want to scare anyone off by sounding like a new-age whacko!
Please, please share your thoughts on this!
How about getting back on topic. The Hindiusm vs Christianity is in the meditation forum, has some great discussion going on there.
Emmy Cleaves (Bikram Yoga instructor) said I'm a completely Western Woman and have no Interest in becoming am ersatz Hindu. American Yoga page 125
The question in this forum as I see it is how can Christians realize a greater spirituality through the practice of yoga without loosing who they are.
Edited by MrD 2005-02-04 1:56 AM
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Mr D --- Yes, I'm pretty sure of the Latin translation. | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2005-02-03 11:09 PM
Dear Brother Bay Guy:
Brahma (NOT brahman, which is the formless reality) and Shiva are the aspect of Vishnu. So, as such Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are the trinity aspect of the same God hood.
The Aspect Shiva of Vishnu is one which is origin of Yoga Science.
Now, coming to your chant:
mangalamoorati marutananadana
sakala amangalamoolanikandana
mangala - auspicious,
murti - one with the form
maruta - God Wind (same as prakritilaya in Patanjali, the one with samadhi who joined the nature)
nandana - son
sakala - the entire
amangala - inauspicious or harmful
moola - root
nikandana - distroyer
I am sure you can make the entire translation with this.
Neel
Dear Brother Neel,
Thanks for all of the above. I've always gotten confused about "Kanda" (which I believe
means bulb or root...eg Kandasana) and "Nikandana".
But now I have another question. Is there any reason not to say that Vishnu is an
aspect of Shiva, rather than Shiva is an aspect of Vishnu, or are these equilavent?
Bay Guy | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | MrD - 2005-02-04 1:30 AM
Emmy Cleaves (Bikram Yoga instructor) said I'm a completely Western Woman and have no Interest in becoming am ersatz Hindu. American Yoga page 125
What is the difference between an "ersatz Hindu" and an "ersatz Christian"? Is she saying
that she could never commit to the Hindu believe system, or is she saying that religion only
counts if you are born into it? Or is the idea that Westerners can only practice western
religions? The way I read her comment, after stripping out the nonsense, is "I have
no interest in becoming a Hindu". | |
| | |
| I'm not sure I understand that comment either. I am not interested in becoming Hindu either, or Christian, or Jewish, or Wiccan, or whatever . . . I consider myself spiritual but not "religious." But I don't see how that really relates to yoga (practicing or teaching). My teacher Joseph LePage put it well: "Yoga is not a religion; Hindu is a religion. Yoga is a science."
Perhaps I'm not giving the Christians in my community enough credit if I think they will be scared to try yoga. I just wish I had a better way to relate to them and explain. I went to church as a small child but have pretty much forgotten everything about it. My main exposure since then are just the zealots who think I'm a bad person if I don't believe everything they believe in, but certainly all Christians are not like that. That seems to go against the actual teachings of Christ - as little as I have studied the religion, I understand it is supposed to have something to do with peace, love, acceptance, and understanding. Funny how often we go to war over it. But I digress . . .
For you Christian yogis/yoginis, what about yoga causes it to strengthen your faith in God? What drew you to practice yoga? How did you know that the yoga teacher would not try to "convert" you or otherwise make you feel spiritually uncomfortable?
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Good questions, Jean!
>>what about yoga causes it to strengthen your faith in God?<< I also consider myself spiritual but not religious so it is not really about me becoming more in touch with God or making me a better practitioner of my faith. I think for me, and perhaps many people, it is just a matter of giving me time and mental space to just be with myself and quieting my brain and mind for a short time each day. It allows space in my life to consider my place in the world and how I can fulfill my time on the planet in the best way. And actually, these conversations online and in person keep bringing me back to the concept of God and making me think about it and define for myself what my own spiritual beliefs are.
>>How did you know that the yoga teacher would not try to "convert" you or otherwise make you feel spiritually uncomfortable?<< Well, being a non-religious person, it didn't matter much to me so I didn't go into it with any such fears. But it was explained early on in my classes that yoga was not a religion. I like the statement that Hinduism is a religion but yoga is a science. We do chant to Patanjali at the beginning of our classes but for me that is a "when in Rome" issue. I have no more problem with that than I do with singing hymns if I am in a Christian church. I often say that I sing "Twinkle twinkle little star" to my little ones often, but it does not make me an astronaut! | |
| | |
| Dar Cyndi:
I read but quickly your big post and enjoyed it. I am little slower in reading. Now, you maylike to know that my wife, Nancy is Eurpoean,and she speaks Hindi very well. She also plays Indian Classical Music. And, she married me becasuse she wanted Indian and we shall settle in India. See our wedding pictures on this board in General, somewhere in the recent past. By the way tell your husband: 'Jaya Pashupatinath'.
Dear Brother Bay Guy:
As for your question: If you feel better with Vishnu being part of Shiva, that will not be offensive. Vishnu and Shiva are identical in a way, meaning that you are looking at a chair from the right side insttead of from the front or the left side. However, Vishnu means one occupies the entire universe and Shiva is the One Aspect of it. For example Shiva deals with dissolution (NOT destruction, as commonly misunderstood) of any material part including the entire nature, so that Brahma aspect can create new one from the dissolved. ETC.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
| | |
| I found the same to be truw with my yoga practice.
Although I'm not a practicing christian , I was was equally aware of the propaganda that exist out there that yoga is demon-worship! How laughable.
I've subsequently discovered my spiritual side though yoga as it connects me to God (or by whatever name we choose to call him.) I've also learn't that we are all spiritual beings having a physical experience in this lifetime, that God is above the dogma of religion and that we are all interconnected through our spiritual awareness of each other.
Glad that we share similiar experiences.
Sat Nam! | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 517
Location: New Jersey | Practicing Yoga has not really intertwined with my faith at this point. Maybe it's because I'm a little confused as to what my faith is at this point. I was raised as a Christian, and went to Church and Sunday School most Sundays. By the time I went to college, I decided that my spirituality was personal, and I didn't want to participate in organized religion. Since then, I have gone back to church several times, and come to the same conclusion. Recently, I have developed an interest in Buddhism and have been exploring that, but as much as an interest as I have in other religions, I think Christian ideals and beliefs have been so ingrained in me that it's hard to let them go. So up til now, I've kept Yoga separate from my beliefs. It is still spiritual in a way for me, just in a different way than a religion would be. Is there anyone else who has been as confused as I am about your beliefs? Has Yoga helped anyone find a spiritual path?
Samantha
| |
| | |
| That sounds very similar to my experience, although I stopped going to church sooner (my mother had a falling-out with the minister). To add more confusion to the mix, she later joined a "metaphysical" church . . . their beliefs were not unlike my own, at least on paper, but most of the people at this particular church were kinda weird and creepy so I didn't get involved.
I did find a terrific welcoming atmosphere at a Unitarian-Universalist Church, whose philosophy seemed to be "Hey - you're ALL right!" and didn't seem to subscribe to any particular dogma. The hymns and sermons tipped a hat to just about every religion under the sun, I loved it! But sadly, I moved away and can't find anything like it in my new hometown.
What I have found through yoga is a way to be at peace with my own spirituality . . . no longer seeking a church to help shape my beliefs into words or needing to see my own faith reflected in the eyes of others. As my mind has grown quieter, I realized that I know what I believe and that doesn't require validation.
This is not to say that people who do attend church are needy in some way! I'm very happy for those who find fulfillment, fellowship, support, and joy at their local church. I haven't really found that in the traditional settings, and my journey involved the frustration of always seeking for something that wasn't quite there. Then I finally realized that all the answers I sought were here in my heart the whole time (there's no place like home!). I don't think I ever could have realized that without yoga.
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I just want to say one thing about church, temples and GOD. I learned this from my husband after he saw me being tortured in a Buddhist Temple. God is not at these organizations called church and organizations that have human development. These places are merely tools to help you find God within yourself. Your home and your body is where God is. God doesn't want to be in these places where people act like idiots. It is our responsibility though to direct ourselves towards a Godward mind even when we are at these places - because of respect. Which is where the challenge lies and why it is so hard for us to understand. YOGA is another tool that helps us direct our mind to God. You cannot even practice Yoga and then go out and commit murder, eat Rajasic or Tamasic foods and act inappropriately. It will eventually interfere with your yoga practice. The true YOGA practice is NON-Violence. Non-Violence is not just about how you deal with others but firstly how you deal with yourself. The other thing about temples is that depending on the temple, is also where you find God for yourself and then when you do, you are like a magnet. People are automatically drawn to you, not you have to go find someone to cling onto and preach and all that wierd stuff. Then when you speak and deal with people outside the temple, your Godlike manners will spread automatically to everyone you come in contact with - without ever breathing a word. Some temples are very rich in India even, while some are just absolutely corrupt...just like churches here in the US. That is where most of the confusion lies is because we haven't understood why it is like that and we need to correct that confusion within ourselves, let it GO and find the God in everything - because even in the corrupt places, God can be found. I will say that I have been to a couple of Hindu temples in the US and I know I saw and felt GOD there. But these were places where the people were truely devoted and there was no Bull you know what!!
Neel, my husband, who's name is Satyam, said to tell you Jai Hind. What part of India are you from?? Satyam's Father is Punjab and his Mother is Nepali.
Take care, Cyndi Singh | |
| | |
| Very nicely written Cyndi--I could not agree more with your statement: "God doesn't want to be in these places where people act like idiots." Thant's my kind of god. | |
| | |
| 1) No one really knows what God wants.
2) Perhaps God is actually in these corrupt places because they need God more?
and
3) Cyndi, I don't disagree with your statements, but I do take exception to your use of absolutes. You WILL find God. You WILL not even be able to practice if...
You're talking about the human aspect of the relationship with the divine here. When you throw humanity into the equation, there are no absolutes. THAT is the only absolute!
These things just might not happen for me or someone else, where this is your experience. Just because you were blessed/cursed/in the right place, doesn't mean someone else will be. All too often as we judge ourselves harshly, and we don't experience the absolutes someone goes on and on about, we find it a failure in ourselves or something we're lacking. I say we need to create a way of delivering our experiences and possibilities while encouraging the chance that this might happen, but ... might not. That things could happen. However, if it does NOT, it isn't that the practitioner is doing something wrong. It could be that they are not yet on that point in their path. I speak from experience here.
I find it interesting that this whole discussion is the very anthisis of yoga. Yoga does not recognize a God or divine separate from the self. (Hence Christianity's issues with yoga.) Each time we make God seperate from ourselves, prepetuating that dualism, we encourage what the Hindu faith and yogic works simply call "suffering." Cyndi's point of finding the divine within is trans-denominational and crosses all the lines of faith.
What is the problem, the fear with conventional western faiths that this is so lost in their denounciation of yoga? | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | YogaDancer - 2005-02-05 12:24 PM
I find it interesting that this whole discussion is the very anthisis of yoga. Yoga does not recognize a God or divine separate from the self. (Hence Christianity's issues with yoga.) Each time we make God separate from ourselves, prepetuating that dualism, we encourage what the Hindu faith and yogic works simply call "suffering." Cyndi's point of finding the divine within is trans-denominational and crosses all the lines of faith.
What is the problem, the fear with conventional western faiths that this is so lost in their denounciation of yoga?
What is the problem? If we are all in direct contact with god, then the folks who spend their
time telling us what god thinks have to get new jobs --- sort of like what Martin Luther was
about when he nailed his theses to the door of the church and translated the Vulgate into
German. Sometimes their fear seems to be protective of their own temporal power --- to
borrow a Christian metaphor.
Sarvam Khalvidam Bramha. Tat tvam asi.
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | ) No one really knows what God wants.
Yes, you do find out what God really wants when you really, really find God.
2) Perhaps God is actually in these corrupt places because they need God more?
and
the concept of God is actually in these places..of course, but the experience of God is NOT in these places, why?? because most of the time the people in these places have not discovered God and they are not practicing God. I am not stating exactly which places because there are some places that are truely DIVINE, but anyone with a GOD experience will recognize this and whatever level of experience, how much of God is there or whatever, a person will know.
3) Cyndi, I don't disagree with your statements, but I do take exception to your use of absolutes. You WILL find God. You WILL not even be able to practice if...
I used to feel that way too!! However, my view changed over the years after having my experiences...and guess what?? If you practice YOGA, if you direct your mind to a Godward mind, I do believe there is a guarantee that you WILL find God, and not being able to practice if??? If what?? If you don't follow some simple discipline of directing your mind and body towards that at all times or in the early stages, as much as possible until you decide and KNOW what is good for you, what works for you and then act accordingly because YOU KNOW that if you don't you will not be balanced internally and externally...I mean like its a choice and we all have free will, that is the human experience...but finding God is one of the simpliest things on this earth, but yet at the same time it is the most challenging because we are human and its a matter of giving up ones EGO and the wordly things of being IN THE WORLD AND NOT OF THE WORLD as Jesus Christ taught and then choosing GOD and living from that place every day, every moment and making it the most important thing in our lives because we Know and understand completely that we cannot go back and don't want to go back. Yoga is definitely a good way to keep our bodies in balance and to align ourselves to a Godward mind. Yes, you are right, it sometimes takes many years to undo and dissolve the Ego and some never discover it, however, that is why there are rebirths. But if you are serious about what you are doing and want it, you will have it. Some takes longer, and some get it right away...that is the person's Karma. But you shouldn't give up in the middle just because you are trying to force something..let it go and I like to say "unpeel the onion" there are many layers of the EGO and I'm sorry to say this, but here in America, we are brought up in a society that FEEDS THE EGO. I too went to Sunday school, in fact my Father is still going and even our president is a good example of that!!!!!!
As for this comment "Cyndi's point of finding the divine within is trans-denominational and crosses all the lines of faith" - that has been the major conflict for thousands of years - but who cares if you cross the line of faith....you tend to pull away from belief's and dogma's once you move towards an enlightened state and towards a Godward mind...you don't need to have someone tell you how to be, you rely on your inner self - your Buddha nature, whatever you want to call it. Everyone has Buddha nature, they just don't tap into it and use it because they have been conditioned by society to rely on things outside of yourself and Christianity & some other religions have been doing this to people simply as a mind control measure to keep their flock in line and so they can stay in business, and did I mention Global Power so they can rule the world, LOL!! Have a nice day, I'm going hiking in the mountains where God likes to hang out. | |
| | |
| See, even these statements are more acceptable and less abrasive than previous posts. "I believe there is a guarantee.." leaves room for the conditional and those who are not on the same path, not at the same place, and just plain not ready.
I also don't believe as mortals that we'll ever blanket-ly know what God wants. We might discover an inner conviction about what we as a person should/should not do, but we aren't divine and cannot know in the huge picture, what God has planned.
I'm happy for you and your convictions, and it's wonderful to put positive experiences out there for those seeking. To know that someone has found that which helps them know the divine encourages everyone, believers or not. At least I think so.
It's the absolutes that still set me back. I find myself thinking, "Oh, to be young and know everything again...."
Christine | |
| | |
|
Some will tell you that Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu.
BG, Buddha is not an Avatar of Vishnu.
Edited by Thushara 2005-02-06 9:19 PM
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | I had heard that the statement was controversial, and that
Hindus and Buddhists see this differently. There are similar
disagreements about Jesus Christ among Christians, Jews,
and Muslims.
Does any of this matter beyond what an individual believes for himself?
| |
| | |
| BG,
if you talk about belief it doesnt matter., coz its blind., But if you want to find the truth YES it matters !!!
BG! If you tell wrong things like this Im going to tell Kulkarnn to give you “Fail” marks in your upcoming Exam
Edited by Thushara 2005-02-06 9:52 PM
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Oh, but Thushara -- the Truth is something that each of us must accept as a matter
of faith, if we are talking about truths that cannot be scientifically tested. What we
believe as a matter of faith is what we accept to be true, despite the lack of objective
proof. To accept that Christ or Buddha lived the lives we are told that they
lived is a matter of faith in itself, and to say that either descended from a god is
a further matter of faith. I don't like to use the word truth when I talk about things
that we take on faith.
| |
| | |
|
WRONG!!!!!!!!! SEEEEE again wrong. One more year in the same class @@|*#$&*$&*$~ | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Hey, no fair editing your message while I'm responding to you!
Before you tell Brother Neel to flunk me on my exam, you'd
better reread the posts above.
So nah. | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Okay, why's it wrong?? | |
| | |
| Bay Guy - 2005-02-07 8:57 AM
Hey, no fair editing your message while I'm responding to you!
Before you tell Brother Neel to flunk me on my exam, you'd
better reread the posts above.
So nah.
 Shape up or ship out !!!!!!!!
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | I just shipped out to another forum. Nobody is yelling at me there.
Edited by Bay Guy 2005-02-06 10:04 PM
| |
| | |
| Bay Guy - 2005-02-07 8:58 AM
Okay, why's it wrong??
So many things bay guy! Not one. wait till I make the list ok
Heyyyy DOOoooooooooont do that. OK OK OK I wont tell Kulkarn and Fail you ok .. Shape up !!
Edited by Thushara 2005-02-06 10:07 PM
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
I await your reply with bated breath...
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
There you go editing your messages while I'm replying to them.
By the way, do you think that Reinbeaux Marz actually knows anything about yoga?
I think that there are a lot of chicky chicks who pick a clever name, get their hair
done, and start selling yoga videos.
| |
| | |
|
Dont wait.... Processing is very slow as the server is multitasking...... Go and do some yoga now. I will keep the answers ready for you ok ?
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Okay, it's time for me to go do Pranayama and get to sleep. I will
log on again tomorrow.
Bay Guy
| |
| | |
| Bay Guy - 2005-02-07 9:10 AM
By the way, do you think that Reinbeaux Marz actually knows anything about yoga?
I think that there are a lot of chicky chicks who pick a clever name, get their hair
done, and start selling yoga videos.
BG, Dont worry about those things. When you see people like that, you have to keep only 1 thing in your mind. That is ;
"CANT BEAT THE STUPIDITY "
then you can ignore them (This is what my best friend tought me.. It really works., You wont be bothered about them )
Edited by Thushara 2005-02-06 10:25 PM
| |
| | |
| Bay Guy - 2005-02-07 8:55 AM
Oh, but Thushara -- the Truth is something that each of us must accept as a matter
of faith, if we are talking about truths that cannot be scientifically tested. What we
believe as a matter of faith is what we accept to be true, despite the lack of objective
proof. To accept that Christ or Buddha lived the lives we are told that they
lived is a matter of faith in itself, and to say that either descended from a god is
a further matter of faith. I don't like to use the word truth when I talk about things
that we take on faith.
Truth is something that each of us must accept as a matter
of faith X
Truth should never be accepted as a matter of faith., Truth should be accepted as a matter of self realization.,
if we are talking about truths that cannot be scientifically tested X
Its not always true. There are so many examples which I can show you when the truth is tested scientifically . Eg: Galileo said the Earth was round and It was true. later it was proven scientifically., Buddhism (Abhidharma pitaka) talks about other planets and today, its scientifically proven. Etc etc etc etc.. You have soooo many examples (I don’t know much about other religions so Im sorry for taking examples only from Buddhism)
I don't like to use the word truth when I talk about things
that we take on faith. X
BG, I think you have taken up with religion on faith.,, I respect that., But I don’t do that., Religion should be something which any body should be able to question at any time. Everybody should have rights to question it and find whether they say the truth. If a person is willing to live and be guided according to his or her religion, Don’t you think ……..??
., I never ever take up anything on faith unless I see there is truth in it. Not even religion. Nothing..
0
____
100
Guys!! Please please don’t be offended by my posts.. This is exclusively to BG.
Edited by Thushara 2005-02-07 8:07 AM
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Thushara - 2005-02-07 8:03 AM
Bay Guy - 2005-02-07 8:55 AM
Oh, but Thushara -- the Truth is something that each of us must accept as a matter
of faith, if we are talking about truths that cannot be scientifically tested. What we
believe as a matter of faith is what we accept to be true, despite the lack of objective
proof. To accept that Christ or Buddha lived the lives we are told that they
lived is a matter of faith in itself, and to say that either descended from a god is
a further matter of faith. I don't like to use the word truth when I talk about things
that we take on faith.
Truth is something that each of us must accept as a matter
of faith X
Truth should never be accepted as a matter of faith., Truth should be accepted as a matter of self realization.,
if we are talking about truths that cannot be scientifically tested X
Its not always true. There are so many examples which I can show you when the truth is tested scientifically . Eg: Galileo said the Earth was round and It was true. later it was proven scientifically., Buddhism (Abhidharma pitaka ) talks about other planets and today, its scientifically proven. Etc etc etc etc.. You have soooo many examples (I don’t know much about other religions so Im sorry for taking examples only from Buddhism )
I don't like to use the word truth when I talk about things
that we take on faith. X
BG, I think you have taken up with religion on faith.,, I respect that., But I don’t do that., Religion should be something which any body should be able to question at any time. Everybody should have rights to question it and find whether they say the truth. If a person is willing to live and be guided according to his or her religion, Don’t you think ……..??
., I never ever take up anything on faith unless I see there is truth in it. Not even religion. Nothing..
Well, let's see.
Faith and Self-realization: if an unprovable proposition leads me to Self-Realization, then
I might accept it as a matter of Faith. Faith means believing something when there is
no objective (i.e., non-subjective) evidence to demonstrate it.
Scientifically testable ideas: Galileo made a testable hypothesis that the Earth orbited
the Sun, rather than the Sun the Earth. He had evidence to support his proposition
which was based on astronomical observation. Subsequent observations and experiments
have continued to support his claim. It is a scicentific theory, well-supported by objective
evidence. Another example is Einstein's theory of General Relativity. At the time he proposed
his theory, experimental proof was absent. BUT, it was clear enough that experiments could
be done to test the theory, and Eddington and others did so within a few years of Einstein's
introduction of the theory. If the experiments had contradicted the theory, it might have
been discarded in favor of a new theory.
In matters of theology, it is very hard to make any experiments to prove things about god,
either in the sense of demonstrating god's existence or in the sense of predicting his future
actions. We can always look back at the past and say that something happened b/c god
meant it to, but such claims are always unprovable.
When you say that "religion is something that anybody should be able to question at
any time", I agree with you completely. So long as the answers one gets to one's questions
about religion are satisfactory (to one's self), one might continue to accept that religion
as a matter of faith. If the answers don't make sense, one might abandon those beliefs.
I started questioning Christianity 30 years ago, and I rejected the whole theory completely
on the basis of its inability either to describe the world or to help me live in it. I have since
found other beliefs to describe the world (i.e., science) and to help me live in it (i.e., yoga).
Yoga has also led me to adopt other beliefs simply as a matter of faith, because these beliefs
provide me with a way to interact with myself and others without so much anger, frustration,
and despair. These latter beliefs are unprovable, but they make me happy.
| |
| | |
| Found an interesting quote.
Let me tell you this: Faith comes and goes. But if it is presumptuous to think that faith will stay forever, it is just as presumptuous to think that unbelief will.
-Flannery O'Connor | |
| | |
|
Who is Flannery O'Connor ????????????
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
She was a Southern American author from the mid-twentieth century.
| |
| | |
| Traditional yoga is yoga I and it brings you to no higher than self-realization, then you have to call God for help if you want to experience God-realization...and this is the beginning of yoga II.
What Jesus taught was yoga II and it begins straight from the oneness with God. You let the God occupy your body, then love the presence of God from the altar of your heart and the Holy Spirit will do the yoga for you. Below is how my teacher puts it.
"The Yoga that Jesus taught
The "key" to the yoga that Jesus taught is Revlations (Christian Bible, New Testement) 11:1 This scripture talks about a fellow that is given a measuring stick and asked to measure the temple, the altar of the temple and those who worship in the temple. The temple is your body, the temple's altar is your heart, and what that is being worshipped is the presence of God in your body/house/temple. What this fellow is measuring is the physiological changes, transformations if you will, that occur when God physically occupys your body and this presence of God is honored, praised, and loved from the altar of your heart.
Luke 24:52-53 "And they returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple praising God."
In M. Govindan,M.A's book "Babaji and the 18 Siddha Kriya Yoga Tradition" Mr. Govindan shares with the reader that the Siddhas achieved physical immortality and left with their bodies. In the translations of the words of some of these Siddhas there is mentioned that one has to be actually physically occupied by God before the transformation to physical immortality is possible. Now poor Mr. Govindan has achieved Self-Realization but he is still trying to figure out how the Siddhas achieved physical immortality. If Mr Govindan were to read Reveations 11:1, with the understanding that it talks about physical immortality, and correlate what the Siddhas said in his book with Revelations 11:1, Mr Govindan would know how physical immortality is done. Jesus also gave us a clue in John 14:20 when he said, "I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."
Acaveyogi"
"The Simple Path
This is how it works:
It starts out that God is an honored, loved guest in your body/house/temple and that his presence in your body/house is praised from the altar that is your heart. Over time the loved presence of God in your body/house transforms your body/house into "His" body/house and you "live in the house of the Lord forever!" (Psalm 23) acaveyogi"
May the Heart's love shine on you, Bodhisattva | |
| | |
| Dear Bodhisattva:
I like, in a way, you call what Jesus taught as Yoga II. Interesting. Yoga was in existence 10000 years before Jesus was born. And, that you call Yoga I. What you call Yoga II as Surrender to God existed much before Jesus was born as follows:
- sarva dharman parityajya mamekam sharanam vraja.... bhagavadgita, 3200 before Christ
- samaadhisiddhi ishwarapranidhaanat... patanjali... 300 before christ
- ishaavaasyam idam sarvam... ishaavaasyopanishad more than 4000 years before Christ.
I can site too many examples of this to fill up this whole bulletin board.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
| | |
| Of course surrender to God existed before Jesus. It's obvious that there were many God-realizers before Jesus. But Jesus created a whole new reality in a dimension of meditation. He brought us under the law of grace. The yoga that existed before was/is based on the law of karma.
| |
| | |
| No, dear Bodhisattva, that is NOT true. Yoga was not only based on law of Karma before Jesus. There was a law of Grace and Bhakti and Devotional Love and surrender all these before Jesus. Jesus did NOT form new Reality. Reality is never new, it is always old, only a method of approaching reality can be new. Even then, the law of grace was not newly formed by Jesus. Yes, the way he stated to the people around him was New, and due to the background of those people, who had never heard such things before due to their background, were totally fascinated and felt it was New, Only Godly, or only Meditation, or whatever. All this existed in plenty before him. I have no ill feelings for what he said. I actually call him a great sage or a Yogi.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
| | |
| You know, I used to think that all the masters taught the same thing in the different package and that all the paths lead to the same goal. I have actually gone through the path of jnana yoga with a little devotional twist from beginning to it's end, so what I say is something I've personally experienced. Self-realization and God-realization are two different things. What Jesus taught/teaches is a direct path to God-realization and I don't think it has existed before him. I don't say that God-realization didn't exist before, but this direct path is new. Ancient yogis did it the hard way.
About the reality. It turns out that basically you create your own reality. Where I'm coming from reality seems new every moment. Sorry if I'm messing with your reality, but that's just what we do everytime we communicate with others.
| |
| | |
| If someone says selfrealization and god realization are two different things, then that is definitely WRONG. when self is realized, one automatically realizes that the self has no dimensions, it has no material properties, and it is all bliss consciousness and permanent. That same self exists in everything, and it is that self which has become everything. When the last thing (it is the self which has become everything), it is called God and that is the God Realization.
this was written in vedas thousands of year ago as:
aadau aatma tatparam khalu idam brahma.
First one realizes one's own self, and then the universal self, called as Brahman, which is identical with Purusha, Purushavishesha, Parameshwara, God, etc.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus or anyone to show a new Reality. The Reality in Vedas is called Aparoksha Jnanam, which is directly perceived in meditation (the term you used above a lot) by the sages, and it was given in Sound Form as Shruti. That aparoksha reality can only be realized by others, it can never be modified or invented in an additional way.
Peace
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
| | |
| Personally, I am unaffected by the religious beliefs and statements of my yoga teachers and friends, but I am a student of Christian theology who has spent thousands of hours in analytical thought and study of the religious history, doctrine, and scriptures of my faith. So I am relatively immune to Buddhist thought.
I find it necessary to avoid things in my practice that offend my God, such as chanting statements that I do not agree with, or expressing excessive veneration for yoga teachers, alive or dead (yes, some Catholics would not have a problem with this :-).
I do not find that my practice deepens my faith, or my relationship with my God, although I would not object if a Christian was able to offer true worship during yoga. True worship is not a matter of form or specific practice, but of truth and intent.
I do not divide my life into spiritual/religious vs other - my whole life is spiritual and religious and physical and mental and emotional and work and play and man and human and father and husband and friend and lover - it is all one, and in all things, God is God.
That said, I value my practice in many areas. In no particular order...
Focus and concentration. The practice of mindfulness during the dance has improved my ability to sit in stillness before my God. This part of my practice becomes a tool that helps me put aside distractions that interfere when I want to talk to God in a concentrated way.
Non-attachment or something. I am prone to get excited and anxious about some things. We all have things about ourselves that we are less fond of, and one of mine is that I can be knocked into an altered state of consciousness (or panic reaction or downshifted, or however you think about it) by certain things. My practice of observing the sensations in my body - as opposed to being the slave of these things - gives me confidence and increases my ability to lean into God & trust in Him. This sounds odd, but it is alot easier to trust God when you are not in a full-fledged panic attack.
I had a tooth go bad the other day (abcess insode a crown). Usually, this would fill me with concern over being able to get in to see my dentist before it blows up, but this time, I was able to experience the pain, sort of sink into it, and become an observer of the sensation, instead of the victim of the pain. I was not able to hold that seat very long, of course, but it was a great confidence-builder, and very freeing.
Much of practical Christianity is about freedom from the lusts which diswtract and decieve us from following God with a whole heart, so this experience was good for me. Again, it was not a faith-builder per se, but it gave me another good tool, and strengthened me.
Physical exercise. I have been exercising for the last couple of decades, and have achieved a pretty decent physical capability. As my program became increasingly yoga instead of lifting & cardio, I find that my endurance and strength have not declined as much as I had expected, and I have fewer stress injuries :-).
Fellowship and sharing. When I practice with others, it is often with one or another teacher from the Anusara school of yoga, and we tend to use the first part of the class in fellowship. Occasionally, when my turn comes, I speak of the greatness of my God, of His acts of devotion to His people, and of my love for Him. This aspect does tend to build, or at least compliment, my faith, because, hey, I'm always happy to speak of my Beloved :-).
Cheers....
| |
| | |
| Bobhisattva :-)
What an amusing interpretation of these scriptures!
Just goes to show that you can make a sentence mean anything by inserting it into the context of your choice.
But to understand what the bible means, wouldn't you want to study the Jewish culture of the authors, the patterns of the source languages of those times, and the scholorship of 2000 to 4000 years of students of that book?
| |
| | |
| What I talk about here is something that I'm experiencing. The problem is that it doesn't go along with traditions. Yogis don't accept what I'm saying and christian don't accept what I'm saying. I can't blame them the usual belief about the subject is more enticing.
My point of view is that
Self is all that is...whole creation and beyond, but God is beyond beyond.
There's a part of self that is beyond understanding and then there's a part of
God that is beyond understanding.
Self-realization is becoming one with the part of self that is beyond
understanding(+universal self) and God-realization is union of the part of God
that is uncomprehensable and part of self that is uncomprehensable.
Self-realization is individual self merging with universal self and this
is ananda...bliss of self being in oneness with itself. But at this point if you
become 'yoked' to God you'll loose that bliss...and this is why so few stick
into oneness with God. The bliss is the last trap. I can't blame them, even the
part of self that is beyond understanding is way too scary to most. Talk about
taking a look at God...many run away screaming.
When you are yoked to God you don't loose your individuality. Your
individual bodymind becomes occupied by God and is transformed from inside out.
Kundalini fades away at this point and the Holy Spirit continues the work.
Eventually you become like God is and can step clean out of creation.
| |
| | |
| I find it necessary to avoid things in my practice that offend my God, such as chanting statements that I do not agree with, or expressing excessive veneration for yoga teachers, alive or dead (yes, some Catholics would not have a problem with this :-).
Elson:
Your posts generally seem well reasoned. I cannot make sense of the above statement.
Why would "your" God be offended by chanting? I presume it is you who is more offended than your God. Do you believe that the God of each religion is different, or that the God of your religion is the "real" God? If so, where does that put the followers of other religions? On the path to he%$?? | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | elson - 2005-04-15 2:19 AM
I find it necessary to avoid things in my practice that offend my God, such as chanting statements that I do not agree with, or expressing excessive veneration for yoga teachers, alive or dead (yes, some Catholics would not have a problem with this :-).
Elson --- Are you saying that some Catholics are not practicing christianity? | |
| | |
| Bay Guy - 2005-04-15 12:25 PM
elson - 2005-04-15 2:19 AM
I find it necessary to avoid things in my practice that offend my God, such as chanting statements that I do not agree with, or expressing excessive veneration for yoga teachers, alive or dead (yes, some Catholics would not have a problem with this :-).
Elson --- Are you saying that some Catholics are not practicing christianity?
I've read statements where Hindus consider the invocation to Patanjali as if they were praying to a god. This would be reprehensible to those from the reform tradition. Protestants talk directly to God, and him only. Since some Catholics pray to Mary or to other Saints as an advocate for them, this use of an intermediary may not be offensive to them.
Edited by MrD 2005-04-15 9:31 PM
| |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Bowing to a saint, such as Jesus or Patanjali, would not offend a yogi.
But I'm still curious to understand the nuance of Elson's comment about Catholics.
[BTW...you should read up on the connection of Patanjali to Adishesha.]
| |
| | |
| Ahh. Good questions. Sorry for the ambiguity.
HotYogi - Yes, "my" God is in fact the real, true, and absolute God, and since He rejects all other conceptions of God as false, then that is what they are. And yes, if you want to get right down to it, those people who my God does not save are on a one-way trip to Hell. But don't worry - if my God deosn't exist, then you have nothing to worry about!
The reason that I do not chant certain things is instructive. First, many chants contain Buddhist philosophy or religious statements that I disagree with, and so I see no need to say them.
I don't make a habit of saying "white people are better than black people" because it is incorrect. Also, it might hurt the feelings of a black person. Finally, it casts dishonor on the reputation of black people, and might cause some unsophisticated person to think less of black folks, just because I said it. It would be worse if someone who has come to respect my ways and thinking hears me say it, because my standing adds weight to the disparagement.
Now if I chant something to the effect of "you are God and I am God," then I am saying something that I believe is false - I am, in fact, lying, because I am deliberately saying something that I know to be wrong. You are not God, and I am most definitely not God. This statement is a deadly insult to the real, absolute, eternal, living God, who is, and was, and is to come. I do not wish to hurt his feelings in this way, for He is my Beloved! Nor am I willing to cast dishonor on his Name, for unto Him is due all honor and praise and glory. And it is even worse if someone hears me saying this, and assumes that Christians are ok with the whole "we are God" thing. So anyway, that was my point :-). I hope that the analogy was not too clumsy.
Bay Guy :-)
Yes, MrD has the right of it. Catholics often ask people of strong faith to help or join them in asking God for something. Often this is a dead relative whose faith they admire, or an official hero of the Church (an official Saint), or even one of the most holy folk - Mary or Joseph. now, this seems silly, but Xtns believe that dead Xtns are right now in the presense of God, so if Uncle Fred was in tight with God, and he's probably got a good seat at the heavenly banquet, and he can hear/see/sense your prayers, why not ask him to put in a good work with the Father??
NonCatholic Xtns do not pray to dead people. Not because they are dead, because "dead" just means "doesn't live here anymore," but because they don't see any need. We go directly to Jesus, and speak through Him to the Father.
Catholics grant special status to some people in the past - the saints & such - and Protestants think that they waste praise on them that should be given to the Father. Catholics could make the case that we owe honor to the heros of the faith, and that if we spent a little more time recognising their accomplishments and strengths, we might lead holier lives. They might be right :-).
So the whole mindset is slightly different in this area. I think that a Catholic might more easily stray from the right path with chanting, but I could be wrong. If there are any catechists out there, I'm sure they will let me know :-).
It was late, and the remark was not well thought out, and I apologise if I offended any of my Catholic brothers or confused anybody. | |
| | |
| Just a question Elson. How come you keep saying "my" God? IF he is the 'one true God', isn't he everyone's god then? And if you are using that for purposes of this discusion, then isn't it false advertising, like the white vs. black people example in your post? Im just confused on the context you are saying things.
Thankyou.
Edited by FamousLadyJane 2005-04-19 9:09 AM
| |
| | |
| HotYogi - Yes, "my" God is in fact the real, true, and absolute God, and since He rejects all other conceptions of God as false, then that is what they are. And yes, if you want to get right down to it, those people who my God does not save are on a one-way trip to Hell. But don't worry - if my God deosn't exist, then you have nothing to worry about!
Elson:
Ok, you are definitely entitled to your belief than that two-third's of humanity is on a one way trip to hell.
I beg to differ though. If your God is the one and true God and also the omniscient, omnipotent and benovolent God that you also claim that he is, then why would he let this happen? Why does one have to overtly accept your God to have a ticket to heaven? Also, if his son died on the cross to accept the sins of all humankind, then shouldn't everyone have a ticket to heaven, irrespective of whether they believe in your God or another version of God.
Also, how does it make you feel when you interact with people on a day to day basis knowing that a lot of them are bound for hell? Or maybe it doesn't matter since you believe that you have a one way ticket to paradise.
| |
| | |
| Hello Famous :-)
The Xtn understanding of God is radically different from that of Buddhism or the understanding of many other religions. I often speak of religious matters with people of different religions - sometimes people with a profound understanding of their conception of God. It seems easier to me in those cases to speak of _my_ understandig of God by saying "my God," and speak of their conception of God as "your God."
This tends to avoid worthless arguements such as whether or not Krishna (or whoever) was an avatar of God. If that is so in another religion, then I am not going to argue that it is not so in that religion - partly because I am not a serious student of that religion, and partly because it doesn't matter to me.
This just a way of speaking for me; one adopted occasionally in the bible by various prophets. My personal conviction, which I know to be true, is that my religion is as accurate an understanding of the actual God as is possible for humans to achieve. All other religions are false.
But my interest is in talking about my God, because I believe that through a mystical and miraculous process, my God used His words (which are hidden in my own words) to open the eyes of those that He has decided to save. For the others, it is only an internet forum, hopefully an interesting one :-).
So I hope that answers your question - I speak of God a my God to add clarity ot the conversation by making clear that I am not making statements about Allah (may his name be praised) or Shiva or the universal being or whatever.
Cheers.... | |
| | |
| Very good questions! Best I've heard all month!
And yes, we disagree on who's God is the real God, but then, my God told us that this would be so.
>> I beg to differ though. If your God is the one and true God and also the omniscient, omnipotent and benovolent God that you also claim that he is, then why would he let this happen?
Who said anything about benevolent? Seriously, in the end, all of this will work out, because my God is bringing forth a great good from all of this suffering. But my God is not benevolent in the sense of a permissive parent who lets his kids get away with anything they want to do. My God brings blessing and misfortune on the Xtn and nonXtn alike. Calimity and disaster and suffering are man's lot on this earth, for two reasons - these are the result of sin that man has unleashed on the world, and also because these are some of the tools that God uses to produce the people that He wants.
I have suffered much to bring my pincha to the point where I can focus on something other than not-falling-down while doing it. And I have far to go before pincha is a meditative and joyous expression of my heart. So, is this suffering bad?
In the same way, God has given me much suffering in the process of making me into a meditative and joyfull son to Him. I am trained and strengthened and refined by the suffering and the following triumphs and celebrations.
People who are not Xtns go through many fo the same trials and suffering, and some can use these things for their own good. And some do not.
>> Why does one have to overtly accept your God to have a ticket to heaven?
Those are the rules. Why should it be any different? What is your purpose on this earth? Any way you answer this question, you come up against a task or a purpose to fulfill, or something other than just pleasing the body and the senses. My God says that my work on this earth is to know Him more and become more like Him.
>> Also, if his son died on the cross to accept the sins of all humankind, then shouldn't everyone have a ticket to heaven, irrespective of whether they believe in your God or another version of God.
Your logic is, of course, correct. But the precedent is incorrect, Jesus did _not_ die on the cross to accept anything, or to do anything to the entire race. His work on & preceeding the cross was pretty complicated, but the simple version is that He died to save the people that He had chosen to become His. Not every single person, but all who would trust Him fo their salvation.
>> Also, how does it make you feel when you interact with people on a day to day basis knowing that a lot of them are bound for hell? Or maybe it doesn't matter since you believe that you have a one way ticket to paradise.
It makes me feel sad at times. It gives me strength to have these kinds of conversations with people who may have originally thought that I was ok, and then learned that I am a Jesus freak, and then held me in contempt. For some people, religion is so loaded with emotion/frustration/anger, that the mere mention of the name of Jesus uncenters them completely. But courage is a daughter of hope, so my hope gives me strength. And it helps that I enjoy philosophical conversation :-).
There isn't anything more that I can do for unbelievers than tell them about my God. Nobody can be argued into the Kingdom of Heaven. You can't force someone to believe, or pay them to believe, or trick them into believing. All you can do is speak the truth in love, and if God is going to save them at that time, then He will. Or He won't.
Why doesn't God save some people? As well ask why some people will not accept Him as their Master.
I have hope that the poor will be served, so I serve them. But there are still poor - more and more every day. And I have hope that the unsaved will be saved, so I serve them by telling them about my God. | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | elson - 2005-04-21 4:23 PM
This just a way of speaking for me; one adopted occasionally in the bible by various prophets. My personal conviction, which I know to be true, is that my religion is as accurate an understanding of the actual God as is possible for humans to achieve. All other religions are false.
But my interest is in talking about my God, because I believe that through a mystical and miraculous process, my God used His words (which are hidden in my own words) to open the eyes of those that He has decided to save. For the others, it is only an internet forum, hopefully an interesting one :-).
.
Elson ---
I think this clarifies everything. You are an evangelist of the christian religion.
Pardon this somewhat rude comment, but I am a bit shocked by your dismissal of
religions other than your own as "false". It reminds me of a bumper stick I once
saw that said: "Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind." If you were sure your
beliefs were correct, it would not be necessary to classify all other religions as false.
You could actually examine them, think about them objectively, and trust that you
wouldn't find anything to change your mind.
Otherwise, what you seem to be saying that your beliefs make you happy, and you
don't care to consider others...which is fine. But it's a big stretch to go from contentment
with your own beliefs to condemnation of the beliefs of others.
"Let him that is without sin cast the first stone."
| |
| | |
| Well, actually, I'm not really any more of an evangelist than most Christians. Since we feel that we can greatly help people by telling them the good news, it is something that we like to do.
>> Pardon this somewhat rude comment, but I am a bit shocked by your dismissal of
religions other than your own as "false". It reminds me of a bumper stick I once
saw that said: "Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind."
Yes, I do find it rude, albeit amusing, that Christianity's claim to be the only true religion elicits such a response. But it is a well thought out position, not a thoughtless one. What _is_ thoughtless is to react to such an assertion with a cliche.
>> If you were sure your beliefs were correct, it would not be necessary to classify all other religions as false. You could actually examine them, think about them objectively, and trust that you wouldn't find anything to change your mind.
Well, as I have explained previously, that is exactly the only position that an intellectually honest Christian can take. Our God makes the claim that all other religions are false. So we are left with the choice of believing Him or believing other religions.
I personally do not have any objection to learning about other religions, and I have learned more than the average American knows about Islam. It is interesting, and helps me to understand the mindset of the people who believe in those religions.
But your "shop around" philosophy shows misunderstanding of my position - let me try to explain. I am married - are you? I don't spend time objectively comparing other women to my wife, looking for a better wife, or maybe just another wife that I can add to my harem. I love my wife. And though I admire many things about other women - strength, beauty, endurance, wisdom, insight, humor, playfulness - none of them is my wife. I will always love and cherish my wife, and I will never break faith with her.
The same is true for my God, whom I love.
That is where the analogy breaks down, of course, because there is a different spouse for everyone. But there is only one God.
>> Otherwise, what you seem to be saying that your beliefs make you happy, and you
don't care to consider others...which is fine. But it's a big stretch to go from contentment with your own beliefs to condemnation of the beliefs of others.
Well, knowing God does make me happy, of course, but so does chocolate. But there are many chocolates and many things which make a man happy. Not so with God - as above, there is only one God.
You need no be so shocked that I claim that your religion is wrong. You claim that my religion is wrong. Sounds like a tie to me. Unless, of course, you are allowing that my religion is as correct as yours, in which case you have affirmed a mutually exclusive pair of assertions. But wait, perhaps you know more about Christianity than I do, so you are asserting that it is just I that am wrong. But wait - that would mean that you are telling me that my personal religion is wrong. Hmmm. I feel so condemned!
Maybe i should think about this more :-).
Cheers..... | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | elson - 2005-04-22 1:29 AM
>> If you were sure your beliefs were correct, it would not be necessary to classify all other religions as false. You could actually examine them, think about them objectively, and trust that you wouldn't find anything to change your mind.
Well, as I have explained previously, that is exactly the only position that an intellectually honest Christian can take. Our God makes the claim that all other religions are false. So we are left with the choice of believing Him or believing other religions.
I personally do not have any objection to learning about other religions, and I have learned more than the average American knows about Islam. It is interesting, and helps me to understand the mindset of the people who believe in those religions.
But your "shop around" philosophy shows misunderstanding of my position - let me try to explain. I am married - are you? I don't spend time objectively comparing other women to my wife, looking for a better wife, or maybe just another wife that I can add to my harem. I love my wife. And though I admire many things about other women - strength, beauty, endurance, wisdom, insight, humor, playfulness - none of them is my wife. I will always love and cherish my wife, and I will never break faith with her.
The same is true for my God, whom I love.
That is where the analogy breaks down, of course, because there is a different spouse for everyone. But there is only one God.
.
Yes, that's really my point. I have my wife, and you have yours, and I would never
refer to your wife as "false" or say that the only true way for a man to take a wife
would be to marry *my* wife. And, making a lifetime commitment to another person
is a bit different that identifying one's religious or philosophical beliefs, am I right?
As regards claims of "wrong", I think the word first used was "false". Your religion doesn't
work for me (and btw, I was a christian at one time), and I'm quite happy that it works for
you as your "true" belief. To say that I don't believe what you believe comes in well short
of dismissing your faith as "false". In other words, I don't see any "exclusion" in mutual
respect. | |
| | |
| >> Yes, that's really my point. I have my wife, and you have yours, and I would never
refer to your wife as "false" or say that the only true way for a man to take a wife
would be to marry *my* wife. And, making a lifetime commitment to another person
is a bit different that identifying one's religious or philosophical beliefs, am I right?
It is different for me only in that I could have made a moistake about who I should have married.
>> As regards claims of "wrong", I think the word first used was "false". Your religion doesn't work for me (and btw, I was a christian at one time), and I'm quite happy that it works for you as your "true" belief. To say that I don't believe what you believe comes in well short of dismissing your faith as "false". In other words, I don't see any "exclusion" in mutual respect.
I understand your point, but I don't think that you understand what I am saying. It does not matter at all to the truth claims of Christianity that it "works" for me, and it does not matter to those truth claims that it does not work for you.
It does not matter how many people in the middle ages believed that the earth was flat, or if someone's belief about that provided him with moral guidance or comfort or whatever. The truth of the shape of the earth just didn't depend on what anyone thought about it.
That is the way with Christianity. Whether the religion is true or not has nothing to do with what you or I think about it. It is cool that Christianity "works" for me, but that has nothing to do with its truth claims. It is fine that Christianity does not work for you, but again, that has nothing to do with its truth claims.
The existence and character of God is not dependent on what any human thinks or believes.
Now, Christianity claims to have the exclusive truth about God. That truth claim is either true or false. So either Christianity is true or false - it is either true religion or false religion.
So, I contend that Christianity is right, and all other religions are wrong. You contend that my position is false. Thus our beliefs are mutually exclusive.
Now you could take this another level, and say that it is not possible to know for sure which religion is true, but Christianity asserts that it is true even if people can not prove its truth assertions. Thus even at this level, our positions are mutually exclusive.
Either Christianity is true, or something else - or a variety of other things - are true. Christianity cannot be mixed with anything else.
Since I am sure of my position, I have no trouble in saying that your nonChristian religion is false - that it makes truth assertions that are false. You are welcome to say the same about Christianity, but of course, then you are treading on the slippery slope of absolutism :-).
It is not necessary for me to agree with you, or to accept your viewpoint, in order to respect you as a fellow human being. I accord you the same respect, and insist that you be treated with the same justice, value, honor, and mercy, that I grant to all humans - all races, religions, young and old, productive and invalid, born and unborn.
Cheers... | |
| | |
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | elson - 2005-04-23 11:33 PM
>> As regards claims of "wrong", I think the word first used was "false". Your religion doesn't work for me (and btw, I was a christian at one time), and I'm quite happy that it works for you as your "true" belief. To say that I don't believe what you believe comes in well short of dismissing your faith as "false". In other words, I don't see any "exclusion" in mutual respect.<<
It does not matter how many people in the middle ages believed that the earth was flat, or if someone's belief about that provided him with moral guidance or comfort or whatever. The truth of the shape of the earth just didn't depend on what anyone thought about it.
That is the way with Christianity. Whether the religion is true or not has nothing to do with what you or I think about it.
The existence and character of God is not dependent on what any human thinks or believes.
...
The existence and character of god are known to us only by way of what we humans
think or believe about god. So our understanding of god is ENTIRELY dependent
upon what humans think or believe. There's no way around this, even allowing that
the ultimate nature of god is unaffected by human belief.
The comparison to the question of Earth's flatness is specious because Earth's flatness
or lack there of is scientifically (objectively) testable. The properties of god cannot be
tested that way because all of our knowledge of god is either subjective or based on
tradition.
And consequently, claims of the truth of a religion by a religion amount to a human
assertion of that a subjective belief is also provable. This is the essence of our
disagreement, and I suppose that on this point we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I do not believe that religion is scientific. It is a matter of faith and personal belief.
From my perspective, your assertion that "christianity is the only true religion" is your
personal belief. I respect your beliefs as your personal beliefs, but I am not convinced
of the "truth" of your claim. If we could devise an experiment to prove objectively your
claims, then I would accept those claims. In contrast, my sense is that no evidence would
convince you to change your beliefs. This again is the difference between faith and science.
Scientifically held beliefs are testable and subject to change in the face of better
evidence. Religious beliefs are not. [Thus, for example, Evolution is a scientific
position whereas Creationism is not.]
In fairness, I will add that I have various beliefs of my own which are not scientifically
provable. I take them on faith and recognize their role in my life as "faith based".
| |
| | |
| >> And consequently, claims of the truth of a religion by a religion amount to a human
assertion of that a subjective belief is also provable. This is the essence of our
disagreement, and I suppose that on this point we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I do not believe that religion is scientific. It is a matter of faith and personal belief.
I agree. As you say, I cannot prove scientifically that my beliefs about God are correct, because God is not containable by science. In addition, we Xtns know that God only reveals Himself to those persons that He has caused to seek His face. In my belief, it is inevitable that you & I disagree about this.
>> From my perspective, your assertion that "christianity is the only true religion" is your personal belief. I respect your beliefs as your personal beliefs, but I am not convinced of the "truth" of your claim.
Yes. That is a logically consistent and reasonable position! If I were you (& I was not a Christian 15 years ago) I would heartily approve of your analysis. I certainly do not expect anyone to believe the claims of Christianity just because I assert them.
Drat! another good arguement ruined by coming to an agreement :-).
Ciao !! | |
| |
|
Yoga and Jesus Christ