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| just lately I have had this knee thing going on.
it is best described as a thin line of burning in the backs of my knees (knee pits). also, the front of my knees are starting to feel funny. the patella is kind of moving- and I get a tingle deep inside- front the front.
It happens in class, and after class on days where I practice more than once. sometimes my knees have started bend back a little further than they used to, almost as if I am losing control of them. (for example standing at the sink washing dishes... it happened as if someone walked up and pushed my knee forward to make me lose balance...you know? weird. you should also know I usually fall out of balancing postures because of fatigue- not a loss of balance- so this knee thing is very weird for me.)
this has started happening lately as my postures all seem to be deepening due to my more regular, more frequent more intense practice. in the last 6 months I have started being able to take my thigh over my head in standing bow- I can kick out much longer in SHTK with HTK, my locust part 3 is mucho higher. however...also I have noticed lessening flexibility and comfort in reclining hero's pose- and a new knee 'weirdness' in camel. (i have 6 yrs bikram experience- 5 of that teaching)
Because of this I am now fascinated by this whole 'micro- bend' of the knee that it is said Tony Sanchez teaches. I have recently purchased yoga challenge 2.3. and 4 tapes and have started looking more at that whole bikram- knees conundrum.
yesterday I started to play with micro-bending and seeing how it would effect balancing. seems like the balance can be maintained once the newness of doing it a little differently has stopped moving the mind around
thoughts?
peace.
dee |
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| What exactly does microbending mean?
Does it mean to maintain the position of the knees just at the point before they lock?
Thnx |
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| Miss Dee,
Having been trained by Tony (studied with him for 5 years total, 3 of which was an apprentice/intern) I think I can field this question.
It sounds like you are experiencing what many Bikram practitioners seem to develop around the 5-6 year mark. Over flexibilty in the knees joints due to holding the poses in a locked, hyperextended position. The way that I was taught was that the leg muscles should engage naturally by keeping a slight bend in the knee IN THE BEGINNING. This will strengthen the leg muscles and eventually allow you to hold the pose with a perfectly straight leg with ease.
It would beneficial for you to work slowly in each of the poses in the standing series with the small bend and perhaps even with a balance bar. It will make your practice stronger and believe it or not it should make your Bikram practice easier. After all the 26 poses is a beginner practice ment to be easy eventually.
AS to the tapes. They are great. You should watch the videos first and then try them. Start with the YC 2 and move up from there. With your knee issues I would recommend avoiding the Lotus series until your knees get better.
Edited by yogabrian 2005-03-18 2:20 PM
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| Miss Dee -- I have the same issue! By the time I get to Separate Leg Stretching, the backs of my knees start experiencing pain unless I lighten up the contraction of my quads. I had knee surgery last year for an injury sustained water skiing (torn PCL) and according to my orthopedic surgeon, my ACL is quite "loose". Sometimes I feel like my knee wants to buckle back in day to day activities. I don't remember having the buckling before I injured my knee, but I do remember that pain at the back of the knees. I wonder if locking the knee prematurely contributed to a weakness in my knee which contributed to the injury.
Yogabrian -- I'm going to give your advice a try & see if it helps. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State |
This is interesting. I had developed a chronic soreness in the back outside of my
right knee after two years of Bikram. It seemed to be related to the attachment of
a tendon there, and it was clearly aggravated by the locked knee standing balances,
especially SFHTK. That cleared up within a few months of quitting Bikram.
I no longer practice SFHTK, since I find that I get most of the same balance and
strength work, *without* the tendency to hyperextension, by practicing Utthita Padahastasana
and its variations. Standing bow, on the other hand, is too beautiful to give up, so I practice that
with an almost total attention to the standing knee (I lock out the upper leg in that pose,
but that's done with control...). Standing bow is a pose with very complex alignments
(in the pelvis, both legs, both arms and the back), and it's one that invites you to fall into
your joints. I'll probably work on it for the rest of my life without feeling that I've gotten it all.
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| thanks for your responses everyone. looks like an epidemic.
I am going to experiment with this micro bend.
(before I try to teach it)
I wish I was in SF and had access to Tony Sanchez. I love his energy in the videos. I know I could learn so much from him. I suppose I already have. I am blessed to have decided to get them. (B Yoga/Hot Yoga is sooo "in the fold" here in H-town. it's tough being "on the fringes" I am so excited to study these tapes.)
I MUST get a TV-VCR for the hot room! maybe try a little special invite class with a few more physically ready students. (TS yoga challenge 2 is the same as the bikram advanced series you know. start to finish- what a boon!)
and by the way- I cant possibly avoid the lotus series-
how else am I going to wow 'em with my open hips? (since head stands and hand stands are not happening- there's not a whole lot left for me!)
besides, tree- lotus -cobbler's (I prefer peach) pose, positioning of the knee -all do not hurt. (hard to think the knee is at risk in that position if they do not hurt...right?)
that dang reclining hero does- and as I mentioned the standing stuff is getting my attention.
also blessed to have y'all to talk to.
Dee |
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| Miss Dee, I'm certainly not as advanced as you and the other yogis responding, but just my 2 cents from my experience with my mom last year. Just please be careful. My mother has always been very athletic (no yoga but skiing, hiking, kayaking) but about 3 years ago she started feeling tightness in the back of one knee. Ignored it and eventually tore her meniscus. Didn't let it heal properly (started moving around too much too soon), the misuse eroded the cartiledge and last year she had to have a knee replacement....don't mean to be dramatic, but you should let it be checked out if you can. I wish I could have known then what I know now to have advised her. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Bay Guy - 2005-03-18 11:12 PM
I no longer practice SFHTK, since I find that I get most of the same balance and
strength work, *without* the tendency to hyperextension, by practicing Utthita Padahastasana
and its variations.
Opps, I meant to type "Utthita Hasta Padangustasana". |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Brian,
Would you explain how you do the standing postures with a balance bar? What is a small bend? I may be interested in trying this if I knew more about how to do it?? Also, it helped me out A LOT in the beginning when I decided to ignore the locking the knee command, I relaxed and do the slight bend like you mentioned...that did wonders for my standing posture abilities...and your right, it gets easier I think. Thanks a lot.
Cyndi |
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| Cyndi,
Surely! You can modify the one legged standing poses with the use of a ballet bar quite easily.
for the SHTK prop the kicking leg on the bar and make sure your wieght is centered just before the heel. This will take some of the load out the standing knee and lower back allowing to work on alignment safely.
for the Standing bow. turn to one side and hold the bar with one hand and work on strengthening the leg by bending the knees.
The basic idea is to find a way in each exercise to the load out of the body enough to work on the alignment. Play around and use your creativity.
Miss Dee,
Tony has closed his studio recently and moved to Mexico! Also the YC 2 is no the Bikram advanced. Everything after the double sided series is ommited. Also there are variations on the triangle and tree if I remember correctly. With your knees I really would avoid the lotus series you can make the damage worse if you have not made them strong first. But go for it if you feel comfortable!
Brian |
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| Tony is gone?! Guess I'm never going to make it to his training  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Tony isn't gone, he's just down in Baja, not far from Cabo San Lucas.
You'll have to make a bit of detour to see him....but not a bad place
to visit (imagine if he had moved to....[fill in your least favorite place]).
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| Tony will be in Cabo for sometime then it is off to China for him! |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
I think I'd rather see him in Cabo than in Beijing.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Brian,
Thanks for that!! I'm going to install a ballet bar across my mirror...what is the best height..like should I install it to the exact area level of where my leg would extend forward for SSLFK, or should I do higher or lower - what do think??
Edited by Cyndi 2005-03-20 10:38 AM
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| Bay guy,
I think I would agree.
Cyndi,
I would install the bar about a little lower then your hip hieght.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Cyndi - this would be a good place for a morror or sharp-eyed helper. You need the bar to be low enough so that your hips don't distort when your leg is up. Be sure to do both legs and go with the lower one. You can always add a blanket or something when you need it to be higher but if it is too high you will twist the spine and defeat the purpose of the prop. "Bikram" with props - oh come on - pull the other one!   |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Thanks Brian and Tourist..
I will set it at hip height as I don't want to loose the intergrity of the posture by it being too low or too high. The reason I want to do this is because I can extend my leg and hold it there, but I can't seem to get enough courage to go forward into the forhead to the knee...this might encourage me to go deeper in this posture. Don't tell Bikram 
Tourist, what do you mean by pulling the other one?? |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
I think she is pulling your leg.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Oops, I got it...thanks BG. Tourist...I'm dead serious, no leg pulling here only extending, we are starting something new, Cyndi's Hot Yoga in the Mountains  |
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| Last night my Anusara yoga teacher made an interesting comment as we were holding T pose. He said "Keep breathing. I want the heat to build up. Heat, not burning. If you feel any burnig, back off."
I've known people with hyper extended knees that hurt themselves if they completely lock the knee. It's not good for their body type. I have to watch that issue myself according to my physical therapist. Since my knee doesn't lock until it's past vertical, I always keep a "bend" to keep it straight, or just a little forward of that. It takes a lot of strain off of the knee. I found this to be very true for the straight legged Trikonasana that other styles of yoga use. I know Birram likes everyone to do things just as he says, but He doesn't know your body. You do. I feel that no one should push a pose to serious injury. Serious Yoga injury is generally avoidable.
And Yes the burning means that the area is getting too much stress. It means to me that you've gone beyond your safe edge. You may have had an imbalance that needed to release to get back normal movement. Maybe some old scar tissue finally broke loose. When that happens it's good, but but you have to retrain the muscles to rebalance themselves.
While I'm sure this statement will be controversial, I would recommend some good old fashioned weight lifting exercises. If you use a knee machine, don't use the one where you are lifting up with the bar on your ankles. Only use the one where you start up straight then bring the weight down.
PS. Nice Avatar Dee.
Edited by MrD 2005-03-22 3:04 PM
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| MrD - 2005-03-24 1:47 PM
PS. Nice Avatar Dee.
sorry MrD- actually that's a POODLE.
his name is Frank, and he is VERY nice thankyouverymuch.
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| That is a handsome dog. Is it a standard breed?
I actually meant that I liked the picture.
I just found this interesting quote in the Bikramyoga site under the FAQ's for bad knees.
"In standing balancing postures, it is also important to keep the standing foot straight and the standing knee pointing straight ahead. If your knee bows back (hyperextension) you should bring the weight forwards towards the toes so as to engage the quadriceps muscle ("lock the knee") and lift the kneecap upwards. This action brings the leg into one line and brings true strength to the knees."
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| Do you know why Tony has closed his school and what his plans are for teacher training in the future?
Brent |
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| Brent,
Unfortunely, no on both questions. I am fairly certain he may do a teacher training again although I do not know when. Best thing to do is email him directly through his website. www.usyoga.org. If you are ever in the Cabo San lucas or San jose area I am sure you could look him up!
Brian |
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| hey guys,
my knees are feeling much much better. thanks to all of you who helped give me a new perspective. I have NO PAIN now when I am holding the leg steady in asanas (as opposed as locking it so powerfully) and I have not had any more of those weird 'knee bending out from under me while in day to day chores' events. YAY!
this of course gives me a great desire to teach it this way. I want to help my students avoid what I have experienced. now... how to describe the 'new knee'...?
Normally when I decide to explore an issue like this I will read, read, read.
Tony Sanchez has no books. and the instruction on the tapes is quite limited.
To those of you who have been with Tony Sanchez, could you please post a few snippets of instruction or theory that I might share? maybe something that rings clear to you about the knees or an instruction that you found particularly helpful... this could go a long way toward sparking the flame of understanding.
Respectfully,
Dee
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| Miss Dee: Great to see you had the courage to try it differently with the knee. There is endless depth to our experience with and in our bodies. The challenge is how far on this depth path can we go. Can't help you with Tony sayings. If you want a great resource on the body and alignment, I very, very, very much recommend Ida Rolf's book called "Rolfing". Other rolfers and my self have given the knowledge in most forms of hatha yoga a lot of time and we all came to the same conclusion. Hatha yogas are still many decades from having the deep understanding of the body that Ida Rolf had and was able to express. I have some of the best Iyengar teacher is the world in Boulder CO and they do have good alignment but still miss much compared to Rolfing. So if you like reading, then wrap your head around this book. If you do you will certainly be in the fringes. Which I believe means you will be a better teacher. Rolfers make a living in the outer fringes or inner depths of the body.
Edited by innerline 2005-03-31 4:34 PM
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| One of the things I know Tony would tell you in regards to how to teach any asana is to practice. Alot. When you are done, practice more. Whenever I had questions about dialogue, he would tell me think about the asana then try and communicate it in a safe way to your students.
One of the most powerful things, I learned from him regarding dialogue was to develop my own. He was ALWAYS on my case about not being a carbon copy of him(or a mini-me as he put it). The answer was always to practice and educate myself in the body. Though it was frustrating to hear when I had no idea how to find those answers through practice, I did what he told me and it worked. Once I had a firm basic foundation of the asanas, the words came easier.
Rereading the post, I know that I have not really provided any specific dialogue for you, but that how I learned. After 5 years of teaching full time, my dialogue is still changing and it keeps me fresh as teacher. Set dialogue I feel will burn you out quite quickly.
Edited by yogabrian 2005-03-31 8:22 PM
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hi brian,
if you read any of my other posts especially those from today you will see I am NOT looking for a dialogue. I did not ask you for dialogue- I do not teach "the dialogue" and feel my back "bow up" a little at the slightest implication that I night do so.
also teaching full time for 5 years I need no script I am no carbon copy.
I asked for a spark- a bit of understanding around this new concept of stability and the knee.
I was the last thing I need is a lecture about dialogue.
I was certified in 2000 and that was the last time I used that script.
thanks anyway. |
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| hi innerline-
thanks for the encouragement and the tip on the book.
i am a book-freak so i'll get it asap!
dee |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Hey Dee, I think Brian was just trying to help. Tony doesn't have any dialog
the way Bikram does, and I think Brian was just referring to the words that you
use to instruct students (and if it's dialog, rather than Bikram monolog, that's
probably better, right?).
Brian --- I'm sure that Tony would be glad that you aren't a "mini-me" version of
Tony, but a full grown Brian teacher. Way to go!  |
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| Dee,
Bay guy is correct. My comments were not to indicate that you are a mindless teacher. You asked what we "Tony" people could contribute. Being in that group and having studied with the man for 5 years, I think that my comment regarding the spark your are looking for is pretty right on.
When I had these questions, the answer was always, practice and education. All the answers you seek are in those two things. Once you understand the concepts, communication of those concepts become the sparks. I know it is vague and that it is not what you are looking for in a answer, but there is validity to it. Believe me or not, up to you. I personal hope that you find what you are looking for through practice and education. You seem like a fabulous teacher.
Bayguy
Aw shucks! Thanks man.
Brian |
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funny knees