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| I am currently reading Bikram's book (thanks Cyndi!) but have never taken a live Bikram class. I am very curious to know, from you Bikram experts or anyone else who knows, why so much locking of the knees? I have studied other traditions and always heard the knees should be straight but soft, i.e. not locked. Does anyone know why this is?
I'm a natural hyperextender/locker when it comes to the knees, but since I started doing yoga I pay a lot more attention to this. My feet and legs are more comfortable when I don't lock, in daily situations like wearing heels at work. One of my students was in the military, and she said they learned quickly not to lock the knees because after a period of time, it would cause them to pass out!
Obviously you would not hold a pose in a Bikram class long enough to pass out (I don't think so, anyway), so that's not a real danger. But, what is the benefit to locking vs not locking? Forgive me if I'm premature in asking this and he explains it later in the book! Perhaps I should just wait until I've read the whole thing before I ask questions! | |
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| Welcome to Bikram's book. Has great tone and atmosphere but terrible pictures and tecnical knowledge. This has been hashed out over and over again in past posts. Just take a look. Your intuition is right on. Lock the knee is Bikrams biggest mistake. I feel very confident in calling it a mistake. Keep following your intuition. | |
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| Here's the link to the discussion that went over this issue.
http://yoga.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=17514&posts=1
The simple answer is that you should always keep a microbend in the knee, howevery the photos in his book certainly don't show this in the slightest in my opinion.
I have slightly hyperextended knees myself. The Orthopedic Doctor said it wasn't a cause of my knee problems, but when I went to the physical therapists they said if I wasn't careful to never put it all the way back during exercise that I would be seeing them a lot more.
Bikram has a FAQ and has this to say about the "Locked Knee." In standing balancing postures, it is also important to keep the standing foot straight and the standing knee pointing straight ahead. If your knee bows back (hyperextension) you should bring the weight forwards towards the toes so as to engage the quadriceps muscle ("lock the knee") and lift the kneecap upwards. This action brings the leg into one line and brings true strength to the knees.
Have you gotten his sense of humor yet?
Edited by MrD 2005-04-27 6:23 PM
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| That is an interesting thread, thank you for sending me the link. I was warned that the photos showed a lot of hyperextended knees, but was surprised at how much of the writing advises you to lock the knee, and/or push it backward until it hurts. I'm still not really clear on whether he is not expressing the instructions the way he wants to, or if he knows of some benefit to locking? Not that it matters a lot, I'm just curious. I'll try it both ways and see what happens, and I'll be careful. Lupron weakened some of my cartilage so sometimes the knees don't feel so sweet.
I do find his sense of humor engaging, I can see why people like him so much. I get the feeling he's the type of person who finds it very amusing to make the "yoga community" think he is a jerk!  | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State | If you search this forum, you'll find the knee question over and over again
for at least the past year. It's the most common criticism of Bikram yoga.
To my eye, Bikram's book is filled with photos of hyperextended knees...
It's easy to fall into your joints if you are flexible, letting them hold your
poses without muscular effort to support the joint. You can be effortlessly
flexible. This is bad for the ligaments around the joints, which are left
on their own to support the pose. You may even find that it is harder to
keep the muscles active, and to hold that "microbend" in the joint. Over
the long run, there's going to be less strain on the ligaments if you do. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Jean, I'm glad you got the book. I still wonder sometimes if Bikram's English is what makes people confused when it comes to this Lock the Knee issue and other issues as well. I wonder if he really means to just push it back until it hurts then hold the knee like "rocks" (he uses that alot), instead of actually locking the knee. The reason I say this is because Indian people's understanding of the English language is much different from how we understand it and know it. I know, because I'm married to one. I find this with other cultures as well. So, what if it were a language barrier and we were all just taking this too literally. Oh well, that is my thoughts about it. Although, I do not lock my knee at this present time while I'm in the standing forhead knee...perhaps one day if I keep practicing I will be able to lock my knees, who knows, then I could be a model in the Bikram's book too! If I don't, I ain't gonna sweat it and I wonder how many people actually do lock their knees..and how many do that are NOT on this forum.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-04-27 10:27 PM
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| There are a few people out there that don't believe it's bad to hyperextend the knees/elbow (e.g. Paul Griley). The rationale is that for some people that is their full range of motion. Due to the shape of their bones, their joints move past 180*. Therefore, those people supposedly don't experience the posture fully unless they are at the full range of motion. As for me, my knees don't move like that so I don't really worry about it for my own practice. As for my students, I generally try to get them to ground their feet properly which makes a huge difference in standing poses. I think that a proper foundation usually solves most problems with the knees. If I have a student that is having hyperextension "issues" then I'll instruct them to microbend. If they aren't experiencing issues, then I leave them alone and address the foundation.
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| Cyndi: It could be his English if all he did was make a book and tape. He does not correct the hyperextended knee in his class and promotes it. Showing it is not a communication thing. If people were not doing what he wanted he would correct it. Just the pictures in the book shows that this is what he wants. Your statement "I wonder if he really means to just push it back until it hurts then hold the knee like "rocks" (he uses that alot), " Is a great example of what not to do. Are you joking when you said this? I have heard that from Bikram many times too. I am glad you do not lock the knee. Cause it would be damaging to the ligaments in the back of the knee. Forget about locking the knee and work more on the balance in the foot, lengthening through the whole leg straight down into the earth. Even use of the whole leg.
I think many people are locking their knees, and wouldn't be if they were on this forum. Just a guess, but I think 85% of the bikram practitioners are hyperextending their knees. How many practitioners of Bikram are their in the world? That is alot of people screwing up the nervous system, joints, etc.
Edited by innerline 2005-04-28 1:07 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | In my opinion, pushing the knee back until it hurts (!) and holding it like rocks is far worse than locking it. I don't think that is Bikram's intention. | |
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| **"I wonder if he really means to just push it back until it hurts then hold the knee like "rocks" (he uses that allot), " **
Jean, borrowing a book from someone is one thing- but when getting information about bikram yoga here it's best to listen to (any/all ) the experienced teachers and long-time hot yogis who practice under a teacher. Of course you don't do any yoga *until it hurts* and *hold it like rocks*. A book is good for supplemental research- but a wise student knows a teacher is invaluable. (and certainly worth $15.) (you are a teacher, right?)
Brian said: **Cyndi your statement...Is a great example of what not to do. Are you joking when you said this?***
As I read these ridiculous posts with their inaccurate advise and non-sense ramblings I often wonder if this is a case of passive-aggressive trolling. Unfortunately, though I think it's just overall ignorance.
Jean: There is much GOOD advise about the knees and Bikram yoga on this board- if you are really curious-go check them out.
Dee
Edited by miss dee 2005-04-28 9:31 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Here's my take on the "locked" knee. It is simply a very poor way to describe the action of the knee. You can do several different types of actions that might be considered "locking" the knee - what really matters is your definition of the term "lock."
One of the key principles of yoga asana that I have been taught is that in all poses, the prime goal (if you will - again, not a perfect term...) is to create space in the body. Pushing the knee back and jamming the kneecap into the leg is shortening the front of the leg and therefore not creating space. Simple as that. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Innerline wrote:
**"I wonder if he really means to just push it back until it hurts then hold the knee like "rocks" (he uses that allot).
Innerline,
Of course I was not serious about that statement, I did not mean for you to take that literally. I was simply using those comments as an example of the way Bikram speaks English. I have never heard him say exactly those above words in relating to the Locked Knee issue. But, I have heard him use that term "hold it like rocks". The average person has to think about that and its not your usual English language. Again, I was merely trying to point out Bikram's English expression because I deal with my husband's English expression on a daily basis and you would not believe the things I have to correct for him...it's lots of work for me trying to understand him.
Dee wrote:
Jean, borrowing a book from someone is one thing- but when getting information about bikram yoga here it's best to listen to (any/all ) the experienced teachers and long-time hot yogis who practice under a teacher. Of course you don't do any yoga *until it hurts* and *hold it like rocks*. A book is good for supplemental research- but a wise student knows a teacher is invaluable. (and certainly worth $15.) (you are a teacher, right?)
and Cyndi responds:
Just because you consider yourself an experienced teacher does not necessarily mean everyone else is wrong or not correct. I'm not a "yoga" teacher, but that does not mean I'm ignorant either and I do have some experience and insight. That statement is totally out of line and not necessary. And doing Yoga until it hurts is not necessarily all bad and I agree with Bikram to some degree about this. If I hadn't pushed the posture to some degree of hurt, I would not be able to them at all. That is BS to think that Yoga is a bed of roses and you'll never feel pain.
Dee wrote again:
As I read these ridiculous posts with their inaccurate advise and non-sense ramblings I often wonder if this is a case of passive-aggressive trolling. Unfortunately, though I think it's just overall ignorance.
and Cyndi responds again:
I'm not giving advice, I'm only sharing my thoughts and experience. Rather than call me ignorant, how come you always criticize and never offer any suggestions?? Seems to me that you are the one that likes to thrive on any negativity you can find on this board that you can bash Bikram about. Why don't you deal with your Bikram issues on your own and let us have this conversation without attacking. Everyone is entitled to have a different experience when it come to the Yoga practice, and I am entitled to mine. Just because it is different from yours does not mean ignorance and I think that you are out of line. Also, just because you are a "yoga" teacher does not make you an expert either. There are some really bad teachers out there and you could be one of them for all I know.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-04-28 10:25 AM
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| Cyndi,
I not only consider myself an experienced yoga teacher, I AM an experienced Bikram Yoga teacher. I have taught Bikram Yoga/Hot Yoga full time for 5 years.
I consider myself an EXPERT in Bikram/Hot yoga and so do others. I am actually a great Bikram yoga teacher. One of the things that makes me a great teacher is my desire to grow - to learn- and to better myself. I ask questions of those who have more experience in yoga, anatomy, Hinduism and metaphysics than I do. I take their advise under consideration as part of my constant study. So I study yoga- I do yoga- I teach yoga- I eat drink and sleep yoga. I study Hinduism and I do my sadhana. Now it IS true I am not married to an Indian person- but somehow I don't think that that makes you an expert on yoga, Hinduism-"bikram-speak" or anything else for that matter except for perhaps making chai with HONEY.
I have found your impressions on Bikram yoga are really not very helpful and are quite often inaccurate. I do think you mean well, but you don't seem know enough about Bikram Yoga to know that what you are saying and how you are practicing "Bikram yoga" would likely be labeled BS by The Man himself! (no locked knee? GASP!)
Of course I offer advise and ask questions here. I don't thrive on negativity and this is not negativity. I just call BS when I see BS.
You know what they say; if you can't take the heat...
Dee
Edited by miss dee 2005-04-28 12:06 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Whatever Dee,
Your words are so intelligent and smart. Like I said, I know I'm not completely wrong about my Yoga practice and I do have *other* gurus other than Bikram. That does not make me stupid or ignorant and it does not mean that you are higher or lower than me. These are only your opinions. As for my being married to a Hindu..your right, that does not make me an expert on Yoga or Hinduism, I never made that claim. It does however, make my connection to this practice and it does take my practice to a very deep level of understanding and level...one that you do not know or understand. My background in Yoga and the Eastern Philosophy does not just begin or stop at this lifetime and my connections to it via from past lifetimes is very strong and well remembered - that I do know and has been confirmed on many different levels for me. So, for all you know, I could have been a "Master" yogi in another life and I could have been your teacher....maybe not..do you know that 100% for sure??? Next time you start spouting these types of things, you may do well to remember that our Yoga journey is not just about this life and I take that very seriously and am not attached to only the things I've learned in this one life, I do have the capacity to take my knowledge from all my previous lives and incorporate it into this one and my future ones...This is a journey for me, not a destination. That does not make me any less of a Yogi than you just because you have 5 years ahead of teaching over me.
If you think that what I say is BS, that's okay with me, really. But, you could leave out the harsh vibe that you have towards me while your in attack mode. Why not have some respect for me as a person and who I am... like you could offer your solutions with a little bit of kindness like a nice yogini would, what kind of teacher are you?? I am always open to learn anything, but the way you present yourself, I really would not want you for my teacher. This is why as a student I do not like Yoga studios and why I do not like *some* American Yoga...this is me being honest and sincere without attacking. I would rather deal with Bikram's broken English and un-clear instructions any day than have to deal with instructors such as yourself that only criticize without having much to back up what they are criticizing about. I want to learn the asana's, I don't want to know or hear about the personal feelings that people have about Bikram - period. Even if you are just a "Hot Yoga" instructor now, you still learned something from the man...you claimed it over on the other thread how much you LOVED the Bikram series and these asana's. If it were not for him, you would not be here having this conversation.
Cyndi - who really would like to have a truce and I think we are all really on the same page here
and Dee, as my sister (Didi in Hindi) I sincerely wish you peace and blessings | |
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| Good heavens, ladies! In here of all places we should respect and appreciate each others differences. I'm sure if we were all in a room together face-to-face, this would be a much different conversation.
Just to clarify, yes I am a yoga teacher. Obviously not a Bikram teacher, since I don't know jack about it! I have been reading these boards and the messages posted by Bikram teachers & practitioners, and it has piqued my interest so I wanted to know more. Since I live 2 hours away from the nearest Bikram studio, its not a matter of the class fee - its the 6-hour block of time I don't have to check it out right now. This summer I should have more free time, and might be able to spare a day to experience it in person. I thought it might be nice to read up in the meantime so I'd have a better idea what to expect, and Cyndi was kind enough to loan me her book.
To get back to the subject at hand, someone (innerline?) said something about activating the quadriceps to pull the knee up . . . I wondered if that was the "lock" position instead of pushing it way back? Or, if there was some joint benefit I don't know about to pushing the knee backwards. I don't want to rely on the book pictures, that's why I asked the experts on this forum.
For me, I really do believe that yoga should never hurt, and my classes are pretty gentle to reflect that. As I was reading (the book), I thought "I think I'll probably just keep my knees straight when I do these poses" but then I started to wonder if I might be missing something, maybe Bikramites know something about knees that I don't. Lots of people know lots of things that I don't! That's what these forums are for, right? To share and learn?
Sorry, didn't mean to start a fight! | |
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| Hi Jean, I am a Bikram teacher and a Rolfer. Rolfing knowledge has influenced me far more than yoga knowledge with regards to alignment and intentions in my practice. I beleive focus on the quads misses to dynamics of balance with the standing leg postures. I like to visualize it as inner and outer balance in the leg. Like two cylinders one inside the other. The extrinsic aspect of the leg, which includes the quads, is supporting the intrinsic aspect of the leg. Over focus on quads can cause the extrinsic to over squeeze the inner part. The intinsic muscle responde mostly to gravity, they are also called postural muscles. Good balance in the foot, knee over the ankle is the beginning alignment. From this the inner part of the leg around the bones gets a chance at strengthening in an evenly way. The intention is to legthen straight down into the center of the earth through the balanced foot, throught the middle of the leg. A challenging part of the posture is to get the intention through the core of the standing hip down the leg. Over time the leg will get straight, vertical with out detracting from the balance in the foot. Usually the standing hip is behind the ankle in the beginning causing the leg not to be vertical if the person gets too forceful in getting a straight leg, which takes away from the balance in the foot (primary). The inner attribute developed in the posture is patience. No way to force the leg straight, the process unfold at its own pace.
This forum is intense. Just like the heat. Hopefully it burns all that we do not need anymore.
Edited by innerline 2005-04-28 3:47 PM
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| Jean,
when you said:
"I think I'll probably just keep my knees straight when I do these poses"
you are right on target. to push the knee back all the way, what most of us consider locked, and as asked and demoed by bikram IMHO is not good for you. I DO think B's exaggerations are sometimes misunderstood- but the photos do say allot.
as a bikram yogi I know this much about the knee locking...
it is about stretching the joint- stretching the hamstring. we walk with bent knees, we sit with bent knees...we do it all with bent knees. I believe this 'straight as heck' leg is all about taking a minute or 2 to do the opposite- to straighten. IMHO- this it's about range of motion- taking time to complete the range of motion and to pay attention to teh consequences all those repetitious movements that we all constantly and unconsciously make.
this is not how it is taught. and this is not how we are taught to teach it. it is taught as it is in the book. As a long-time doer and teacher of this "pushed back knee" I have recently had some knee issues and discussed this issue on this forum just a few weeks ago. I got some great advice and have incorporated the 'micro-bend' into my own practice and the practices of my students who have knee issues, as well as correcting those who are slamming the knee back.
For example: I find i am now giving everyone the same instruction I was giving to those whose knees would naturally hyper-extend in standing head 2 knee. "Try to keep the knee straight- the leg straight. Try not to push back all the way- or relax the leg back. Hold the legs straight, engage the quads, lift the knee--- let the bones do the work of holding you up" "if you get 'Elvis Leg' of become uncomfortable in the posture, bend the knee(s) for a moment take a break,and try again."
I did not mean to imply you were not willing to go to a bikram class because of money. I was referring to some people's tendency to only rely on their own instinct as opposed to seeking the help of a qualified teacher. to mention the $$ to you was to engage your understanding in the plight of the teacher... not to accuse you of being cheap!
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| To get back to the subject at hand, someone (innerline?) said something about activating the quadriceps to pull the knee up . . . I wondered if that was the "lock" position instead of pushing it way back?
Exactly. You can safely ignore 95% of the comments in this forum about locking the knee if you concentrate on engaging the quadricep muscles fully. | |
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| Elvis Leg! I never heard it referred to that way - what a great visual!
Now that explanation makes a lot of sense to me . . . if the classes are geared toward folks who have never tried yoga before the "micro-bend" talk might not make a lot of sense. And, since most other activities involve a bent knee (sitting, even running and cycling), stretching the other direction might feel like a good idea for those folks. NOW I see!
In my classes, I try to say things like "knees straight but soft" and of course "micro-bend." For my absolute beginners I try to show the difference between hyperextending and straight. I imagine, for an experienced yogi who is well-acquainted with the knee, this might be a safer way to explore the Bikram poses.
I know it must have sounded odd, after all the times we advise students to work with a live teacher, for a live teacher to say "I want to learn Bikram from a BOOK!"  But, that is the reason - I know a live class would be best, but since I can't get to one yet I was curious to learn more right now. I didn't take it that you thought I was cheap, I just realized how silly that must have sounded!
Jean | |
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| I understand. books are great keys.
I have tons of books on iyengar- ashtanga- "hatha" TONS(hundreds)! and only 2 little books on Hot yoga/Bikram Yoga. with out researching other lineages, other opinions other theories of alignment for these postures and their modifications I could never have faced as many people in the room as I have and tell them "what to do" and confidently tell them "how to do".
I am dying to study with Tony Sanchez but there's no way I can go to Mexico this year, so I rely on the video tapes my books and my independent study until I can see him in person. I wouldn't drive 2 hours to go to a "regular" bikram yoga class with out knowing more either. (perhaps not at all- the bigger issue after a Hot class: WHO is driving me HOME?) However, I WOULD drive 2 hours for a workshop or a special teacher.
Peace.
dee
Edited by miss dee 2005-04-28 4:22 PM
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| ebenjen: There are alot of other muscles in the leg. Focusing on just one set, is doing yoga in parts and not from the whole. To fully engage the quads most likely leads to the exlusion of others. Focusing on fully engaging the quadricep muscles, get peoples minds and bodies into active will. Balanced intention is a balance of passive and active will. Your statement completly misses the passive part. Sounds just like the normal Bikram teacher. Do,do, do this, do that, also some of this. To ignore something is very similiar to being in denial. And I would not call it safe. Ya, ignore what everyone has to say because I got it, its the quads, ya the quads. Sure you do. Just when you think you got it, life shows you what you missed as substance for your next enfoldment. | |
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| Wisely said, Innerline.
Could you tell us some more about Rolfing. How in your opinion does it help strengthen your yoga practice and teaching?
Thanks | |
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| Thanks HotYogi,
Rolfing principles stem from the effects of gravity on the body through out the whole development of our organism. The connective tissue, the most prevalent tissue in the body,is growing and adapting, according to how gravity flows or not flows in the body. It is the substance of support, structure and form. It spans from the bones to the blood and everywhere inbetween. It hold everything together in its web.
Rolfing is a form of bodywork that creates spaces in the body by manipulating the connective tisse. So that gravity flows through the body more fluidly, giving it more order and support as opposed to breaking it down along the path of entropy. Rolfing principles help in working with gravity to find a more supportive relationship with the earth. A deeper experience of our core. An expansion through the body. Basically Rolfing (Structural Integration) is a wholistic system of perception and bodywork that has gravity as it teacher. It helps present disembodied elements of our psyche and body to the core to be healed and integrated.
Same intentions as yoga with alot more effectiveness in getting into those hard to get to places or stuff left behind. Very fascinating. Compliments yoga very well. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Well, I'm smiling. Having been yelled at in this forum for "being negative"
it's pretty amusing to read all the critiques and debate up above. 
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| Your a very very BAD Guy.  | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Innerline,
What you are describing by way of Rolfing is very similar to the Chinese Medical Massage, Tui Na. (Note: there are many forms of Tui Na but the one I'm referring to is the one that is used medically to manipulate and stimulate the meridian function). Also, there is a Japanese massage called Shiatsu (sp?) which is also very similar as well. Where did Rolfing originate from? | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Jean - I think the original meaning of "lock" the knee a la Bikram (and this is from a casual observer, not a student) is to push it back and I think many have found this to be unsafe for the knee. No, from my understanding of anatomy (which is imperfect, to put it mildly) there is no hidden benefit from doing this, although some may be able to do it for many years and not hurt themselves. There are human bodies that just seem to be able to go like the Energizer bunny forever and not break - ultramarathoners come to mind. Dancers used the "ballistic" stretch for centuries and many didn't get hurt - but I am sure many did and had to retire early due to misuse of their bodies. Most people find the microbend of the knee with intense quad engagement to be much more difficult and demanding than pushing the knee back. Why take the easy road?
As a total aside - if you ever watch the ballroom dancing competitions on TV, you'll see the Latin dancers sometimes over extend the knee in the same way. But in the past few years it has become less and less prevalent, and I am sure it is because the dangers of such a position are better known now. Plus it looked horrible and ruined the line of the leg. | |
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| innerline - 2005-04-28 5:12 PM
ebenjen: There are alot of other muscles in the leg. Focusing on just one set, is doing yoga in parts and not from the whole. To fully engage the quads most likely leads to the exlusion of others. Focusing on fully engaging the quadricep muscles, get peoples minds and bodies into active will. Balanced intention is a balance of passive and active will. Your statement completly misses the passive part. Sounds just like the normal Bikram teacher. Do,do, do this, do that, also some of this. To ignore something is very similiar to being in denial. And I would not call it safe. Ya, ignore what everyone has to say because I got it, its the quads, ya the quads. Sure you do. Just when you think you got it, life shows you what you missed as substance for your next enfoldment.
Sorry but your response falls into that 95% that I think is mostly hooey. You misconstrue my words by taking them out of context and projecting a lot of meaning onto them that wasn't there. You make assumptions about what and how yoga should be taught without considering context. You also have a tendency to make it sound like yoga is a highly complex and dangerous endeavor that is best left to the experts.
I see yoga (particularly "beginner" classes) as being a little more simple and accessible to the average person with average capabilities. I'm not going to get sucked into the debate about the minutia of locking the knee. I'm also not going to let you bait me into becoming defensive about Bikram yoga. It works.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | ebenjen - 2005-04-29 8:38 AM
You make assumptions about what and how yoga should be taught without considering context. You also have a tendency to make it sound like yoga is a highly complex and dangerous endeavor that is best left to the experts.
I see yoga (particularly "beginner" classes) as being a little more simple and accessible to the average person with average capabilities. I'm not going to get sucked into the debate about the minutia of locking the knee. I'm also not going to let you bait me into becoming defensive about Bikram yoga. It works.
THANK YOU ERIC!!! I can't believe you took the words out of my mouth and I wish I could have written it myself. This is exactly what I was trying to convey earlier about simple and accessible. This is the reason I hate most American, Yes I did say American Yoga instructors. All they do is try to dominate you into thinking that you are so much lower than them, and unless you can speak and write their mumbo jumbo lingo you are stupid and not capable of doing this Yoga practice. To me this is the BS!! What is it with you people?? Half the stuff that was writtien in these previous posts are so technical that my mind just blows into smitherines when I try to read it. Which BTW, I have Marylin Barnett's Hot Yoga Book that I'm going to send you Jean, that will really blow you away, you may want to have someone read you the instructions on each little step cause I doubt you can remember each detail before entering each posture. Sorry, like I said earlier, I will take a million days of dealing with Bikram's simple broken English, eating Dal if I had to, any day compared to this, no way and no thanks. Besides, the body does have a way of KNOWING...you really do not need a teacher to do Yoga, only some really good instruction from a teacher from a good lineage will get you going, the rest falls into place...I'm a great example of this and is why I do Yoga at home.
Sometimes I do not know why I wasted so much time here, but for anyone who is reading this forum and your not sure about Bikram and you've seen all this..I wish you the best of luck, and don't listen to half of this garbage...listen to your own intuition and don't worry about your buttocks being tucked in, locking or unlocking your knees, and whatever. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE TECHNICAL to do YOGA...ANY kind of Yoga. Just do the best you can, do what is best for you, take a break - no one is going to push you where you don't want to go - only you have control over that one!! Just go out and do it and Have a great time! | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Eric and Cyndi - You are both right that the average student does not need to know all the technicalities of the alignment of poses, but the TEACHER does need to know it. I would never go into the intricate details of the knee in a beginner class, but I know what to watch for and can quickly give extra help to anyone who may be about to hurt themselves. Cyndi, you yourself said you need guidance from someone knowledgable to get you started and you are absolutely right. You can practice on your own for a good long time and then you will come to a place where you need more instruction - you will become stale or injure yourself or just get curious about how to go deeper in some pose or learn some new poses. Then you go back to the experienced person or someone new and gain some more knowledge and on you go. Some of us do that weekly and some less frequently.
And Cyndi - please consider (and I am saying this in the kindest possible way because I think you mean well) that you accuse many on this board of negativity especially toward Bikram yoga, but you yourself frequently rant on and on about how you hate all American yoga, all the American yoga studios and all American yoga teachers. That is pretty harsh coming from someone who does not actually attend classes in any style.
Eric - I don't think you need to worry about innerline wanting to convert you from Bikram since he is a Bikram teacher..... | |
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| Cyndi, some of us actually enjoy detail and find it interesting, not condescending or stifling at all. If you prefer not to learn that way, fine, but do not assume that everyone responds to such instruction in the same manner. Also, while I am glad you have not had any injuries yet, those "details" can make a huge difference, when faced with one. To each their own, but I am finding your constant sermonizing on all this a bit tiresome. I think we all get it. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | tourist - 2005-04-29 10:35 AM
And Cyndi - please consider (and I am saying this in the kindest possible way because I think you mean well) that you accuse many on this board of negativity especially toward Bikram yoga, but you yourself frequently rant on and on about how you hate all American yoga, all the American yoga studios and all American yoga teachers. That is pretty harsh coming from someone who does not actually attend classes in any style.
Dear Tourist,
Consider your comments duely considered, duely noted and appreciated - you are one of the kinder ones  As for my comments about *some* NOT ALL American Yoga, I didn't single anyone in particular out - yet. I'm sorry that is my observation from experience in all the types of Yoga with Americans that I've experienced...not to mention all the reading that I do - this is how I have learned. I totally agree with you about the fact that IF, you have a good instructor, then by all means learn everything you can and do what you have to do...learn all the technical stuff you want. But...I mean this, it is NOT a requirement to do the YOGA practice. You can read simple verbal instructions about how to do most of these asana's and practice them successfully, that is what I'm saying. If you want to go deeper, then of course you would need a live teacher or more instruction.....I think most of us have the common sense to seek that out when we have reached that level. BTW, most if not all of my YOGA studies and instructions have come from India, the American version of Yoga is totally confusing to me and that is me being honest. Like I have always said, I started out with a great Bikram Instructor who taught me a lot, I am grateful, but..the instructions I've received from Bikram and other Indian Yogi's and Masters have been more beneficial to me because of the simplicity. If there are people like Maria that like the technical lingo, fine, go for it, but don't make claims that everyone else is wrong for doing it in simple form and we are not stupid or ignorant because we CHOOSE not to fill our heads with all that...I like my mind to stay very clear.
Maria, I'm sorry you think I'm preaching...but, some people don't get it and I didn't take all my precious time out to type all this for nothing...so let us keep clearing the air...this is all really good stuff, I always love cleaning house and it is spring after all | |
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| Totally agree that most students don't need all the micro-details of each pose. Especially beginning students, that's just too much to remember and they get overwhelmed, then bored, then you never see them again. Then they might miss out on the simple yet powerful joy of just being in the poses!
But, as a teacher, I find the anatomical minutiae very interesting, even though I'll probably never use all the medical jargon in a class. It still helps me to understand the poses better and find new ways to communicate them to my students. As does reading everything I can get my hands on! I may not agree with or practice all the styles I read about, but knowing as much as I can about everything helps me become a better teacher, IMHO.
And it makes me feel like a smarty-pants! | |
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| jeansyoga - 2005-04-29 10:39 AM
But, as a teacher, I find the anatomical minutiae very interesting, even though I'll probably never use all the medical jargon in a class. It still helps me to understand the poses better and find new ways to communicate them to my students. As does reading everything I can get my hands on! I may not agree with or practice all the styles I read about, but knowing as much as I can about everything helps me become a better teacher, IMHO.
And it makes me feel like a smarty-pants!
here! here!
and as a side note, i wonder if you have a "pants" fetish?
"jeansyoga" "smarty-pants" and that is a dog on your avatar...
i dont know about yours, but my dog, PANTS!!!!
Dee | |
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| I agree with Tourist. The average beginner for the most part will not grasp detailed anatomy and kinesology of the Asanas. Most just want to stretch and feel better. However Yoga can be dangerous if done incorrectly. You are putting the body in various potentially damaging postions if not guided correctly. This is part of what getting proper instruction is about. The person teaching must have sufficient knowledge of both asana and science of the body.
I also agree with innerline to a certain degree about over focusing on the pulling up on the quads. The movement you are encouraging is not a natural one to gravity or how we are build as humans in conjenction to standing. This motion would encourage instablity in the knee joint and decrease a persons ability to balance correctly and safely. Perhaps this is why so many people can't do the standing series all the way through without falling out of the poses. I would suggest perhaps encourage student to push their weight down into the floor. This would activate the quad correctly with gravity and encourage proper balance.
I have heard (not confirmed yet) That Bikram has updated his dialogue to omit the term "locked knee". It is interesting to note also that Bikram has photos up in his studio of him doing the asanas. There are shots of him NOT hyperextending his knees in the standing series and indeed doing the asanas with a small bend in the knee. If Bikram personally doesn't hyperextend his knees why should anyone else who practices Bikram yoga do it? | |
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| I find that simply extending my energy through the bottom of my foot, my leg is firm & straight. The action also brings my hip back in line with my knee as opposed to sagging to the side.
Cyndi: "but for anyone who is reading this forum and your not sure about Bikram and you've seen all this..I wish you the best of luck, and don't listen to half of this garbage...listen to your own intuition and don't worry about your buttocks being tucked in, locking or unlocking your knees, and whatever. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE TECHNICAL to do YOGA...ANY kind of Yoga. Just do the best you can, do what is best for you, take a break - no one is going to push you where you don't want to go - only you have control over that one!! Just go out and do it and Have a great time!"
If I had known about tucking my tailbone in backbends, I could have avoided 2 years of back pain. Having a little technical knowledge under your belt can save you a lot of grief later. "Just go out & do it & have a great time" is such an American attitude -- I'm surprised to hear it from you  | |
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| Dee - I think I do have a pants fetish! I never realized it . . . all the animals get pantsy nicknames though. I'm always calling them Mr. Fluffypants or Mrs. Barkypants instead of their real names (Dennis and Xuxa)! 
But, realizing I have a problem is the first step to recovery, no? | |
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| jeansyoga - 2005-04-29 12:51 PM
Dee - I think I do have a pants fetish! I never realized it . . . all the animals get pantsy nicknames though. I'm always calling them Mr. Fluffypants or Mrs. Barkypants instead of their real names (Dennis and Xuxa )!
But, realizing I have a problem is the first step to recovery, no?
ahhh yessss....
*The Great Darlini* knows all and sees all...!!
Does that mean i am tele-pant-thic?
Dee
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | You gals have it easy. There just ain't no decent yoga pants for men.
I blame the Yoga Journal for not making an issue of this sexist situation!!
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| Just a few general (rambling) comments...
Context is everything.
I would never critique a posture by looking at a photograph, just as I would not critique a posture simply by reading a written description of it. On the other hand, if I did, I would probably include the disclaimer, "of course, this is theoretical, I'd prefer to see what you're doing in the flesh."
I keep a copy of BKS Iyengar's "Light on Yoga" at my front desk so I pulled it out this morning and looked to see what he had to say about the knee in standing postures. First thing I noticed is that there are three distinct photos of him standing on one leg with what appears to be a hyperextended knee. Imagine that. Further, he has a paragraph talking about the importance of standing properly in which he basically says it's important to "pull the knee caps up," to keep the feet parallel, and to distribute the weight evenly on the feet, all of which is consistent with the Bikram Method. There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk about the dangers of yoga in this book which seems to be geared towards a mass market, ie, beginners as well as experienced practitioners. In fact, most of his instructions are brief and basic, rarely taking more than one or two sentences to describe the different parts of a posture.
I haven't tried Iyengar Yoga yet but I'm going to someday.
I think I referred to jeansyoga as yogajeans earlier. If so, sorry about that. I don't track some of the names very well.
There are many safety features built into the Bikram Yoga method. Much of what I'm learning from the wonderful book, "Anatomy of Hatha Yoga" by H. David Coulter supports this. It's a dense book and highly technical so I'm working my way through it sporadically and slowly.
Aren't there thousands of Bikram Yoga* teachers in the world? Who could possibly know enough of them personally, or even second-hand, to make vast sweeping statements about what *most* of them are like?
* substitute any other categorization and the point remains.
Whenever I see a prolonged and heated debate, I think of the words, "Methinks thou dost protest too much."
One of my favorite quotes from my training is from Emmie Cleaves: "This isn't your Om-Shakti-Shanti Yoga, this is Bikram Yoga!" (Which is really a close second to Bikram's "Eat sh*t and die. I love that. That's poetry!")
I'll shut up now and get back to locking my knee.
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| jeansyoga - 2005-04-29 11:39 AM
Then they might miss out on the simple yet powerful joy of just being in the poses!
Amen to that!
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | ebenjen - 2005-04-29 11:16 PM
I keep a copy of BKS Iyengar's "Light on Yoga" at my front desk so I pulled it out this morning and looked to see what he had to say about the knee in standing postures. First thing I noticed is that there are three distinct photos of him standing on one leg with what appears to be a hyperextended knee. Imagine that. Further, he has a paragraph talking about the importance of standing properly in which he basically says it's important to "pull the knee caps up," to keep the feet parallel, and to distribute the weight evenly on the feet, all of which is consistent with the Bikram Method. There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk about the dangers of yoga in this book which seems to be geared towards a mass market, ie, beginners as well as experienced practitioners. In fact, most of his instructions are brief and basic, rarely taking more than one or two sentences to describe the different parts of a posture.
There are many safety features built into the Bikram Yoga method. Much of what I'm learning from the wonderful book, "Anatomy of Hatha Yoga" by H. David Coulter supports this. It's a dense book and highly technical so I'm working my way through it sporadically and slowly.
This reminds me of some discussion we had in one of the other forums, about Iyengar's
teaching as it has evolved over time. Iyengar himself has referred to the man in those
photos (his younger self) as knowing nothing about yoga. My own Iyengar teacher teaches
a number of those poses quite differently than they are shown/described in LOY, and
this is a teacher who follows Iyengar's current teaching quite strictly. I would easily agree
that some of the alignments in LOY can be improved (including those knees you mention),
but I'd balance this by noting two other things:
1. Iyengar's teachers are specifically trained NOT to make those misalignments, and
they spend copious amounts of time teaching students to avoid them.
2. Iyengar's book was one of the first book's to provide photographic examples of
many most of these poses, and it includes nearly 600 plates spanning several hundred
distinct asanas. And he demonstrated every single pose himself. There are not many
people in the world who can do such a diversity of asanas to perfection...in reading
the book, I find that he's a very precise backbender, strong in arm balances, and
a deep forward bender as well. He's not so neatly aligned in some of his inversions,
twists, standing asanas, although I'm told that he himself would not today accept
some of the alignments shown in LOY.
I also agree with you about the brevity of the instructions in LOY.
Now, you should look at some of his later books to see the evolution of his teaching
and writing. Light on Pranayama is one of the most thoroughly detailed and
precise books on yoga that I have ever read. A full chapter on how to sit, a full
chapter on how to place the fingers on the nose, and a full chapter on savasana.
There's also the newer book on asana (the great big full color one from DK), which
goes into the details of basic postures in the way that you note LOY does not.
My point, then, is that LOY is an early snapshot of Iyengar yoga. It is a catalog of
asanas, and the only catalog to include the more difficult asanas. The evolution of Iyengar
yoga over the past 50 years has been substantial, and the teaching and training of
teachers is far more expansive than what is represented in that book.
~~~~
On Coulter's book, almost everyone who has touched that book seems to ocme away
saying what you've said. Impressive, detailed, surely important, and VERY hard to read
straight through. | |
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| With response to the attitude about American Yoga and it's teachers:
I regularly attend a studio in town that offers community (free) classes on Sundays, and at one point they were offered on Saturdays as well. Each week a different teacher from the studio, a member of the teacher training course, or an apprentice teaches that class. In a year and a half, there has been ONE teacher who has had this percieved negative attitude. And I was in a particurlarly foul mood that day - so it might not be the most accurate assessment. Generalizations are dangerous, and personal bad experiences are just that - let's keep that in mind, shall we? | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Bay Guy - you are so right about BKS. It seems obvious to me that a person's practice and teaching would evolve in some way over 50 years. What kind of a statement would it make if it didn't? Their yoga would be a stale series of exercises and no longer be worthy of the name "yoga." Many of our teachers go to the Institute in Pune regularly and remark often that BKS has discovered some new and exciting insight into a pose during his practice (which, BTW, he does right in the classroom area while classes are going on) - even something as basic as trikonasana - and is excited and inspired by it every bit as much as we mere mortals are inpsired and excited by our little accomplishments.
Lora - **And I was in a particurlarly foul mood that day - so it might not be the most accurate assessment.** This is such a good observation. I have had similar experiences where I was feeling miserable and therefore all my experiences at that time were coloured by that bad mood. It is so good to have that awareness and give the teacher or the restaurant or the movie another try when one is in a better mood. | |
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| tourist - 2005-05-01 1:34 AM
Lora - **And I was in a particurlarly foul mood that day - so it might not be the most accurate assessment.** This is such a good observation. I have had similar experiences where I was feeling miserable and therefore all my experiences at that time were coloured by that bad mood. It is so good to have that awareness and give the teacher or the restaurant or the movie another try when one is in a better mood.
lora and glenda:
this is why i always say i will try anything TWICE. | |
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| Bay Guy - 2005-04-30 8:32 AM
My point, then, is that LOY is an early snapshot of Iyengar yoga. It is a catalog of
asanas, and the only catalog to include the more difficult asanas. The evolution of Iyengar
yoga over the past 50 years has been substantial, and the teaching and training of
teachers is far more expansive than what is represented in that book.
I understand and appreciate everything you say in the post I pulled this quote from. I also note that the book is still being published without being revised. I'm able to apply a similar kind of analysis to Bikram Yoga, specifically in regards to his book, but also in regards to how it is taught. I don't know a single Bikram instructor who teaches people to hyperextend the knee and, at least among the teachers I know, those of us who use the phrase, "lock the knee," take time to define what we mean in more detail, often demonstrating. Yet I still see a lot of critical generalizations being made about Bikram instructors that presumes otherwise and in other ways just doesn't match my own experience. I said I wasn't going to get defensive but it's hard not be a little defensive about being a Bikram instuctor in the face of such prejudice.
I appreciate critical discussion and debate but I'm sorry to say that much of what goes on here is speculation and assumption.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | ebenjen - 2005-05-01 11:12 AM
I also note that the book is still being published without being revised.
The basic postures are covered in detail in Iyengar's NEW book, which certainly
counts as a revision of the teaching of those poses relative to LOY. The main
reason LOY continues to be sold is that it is alone among yoga books in
teaching anything about the advanced asanas. I for one would certainly like
to see a revision or new text covering the advanced postures in depth from
today's perspective -- they are the core of my practice at present, and what
I learn about them I either get directly from teacher or discover for myself.
Sequencing, in particular, is quite important to practicing those postures
comfortably and in their full form.
I have been told that Iyengar did once start on a project to remark LOY, using
new photographs. The problem was evidently in finding a model to do all the poses
who could do them at the demanding level of perfection BKS required! As I mentioned
before, hundreds of asanas are involved, dozens of which are extremely difficult for
almost all practitioners.
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| Ebenjen: "I still see a lot of critical generalizations being made about Bikram instructors that presumes otherwise and in other ways just doesn't match my own experience."
I concur -- we do get a bad rap. Bikram in general gets a bad rap, many times unjustly IMO. While there are legitimate concerns about the dialogue sometimes, a lot of the criticism aimed at Bikram seems a little silly. For instance, it always cracks me up when students/teachers of other disciplines knock the mirrors in Bikram Yoga. A focal point is a focal point -- who cares if I'm looking at a spot on the wall or a spot on my forehead to help with balance. If someone is so worried that they won't be able to experience "true yoga" because there is a mirror, seems to me they have a lot to work on!
And you're right -- I rarely see Bikram teachers (unless they are very very new) say "lock the knee" anymore without explaining what they mean. As far as the pictures in his book, I heard a VERY senior teacher/studio owner, dedicated Bikram disciple complain about those hyperextended knees. Perhaps Bikram yoga is evolving, too . . . | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| The whole mirror thing is a discussion unto itself, isn't it? I think we had one going somewhere here on the boards. The thing is they can be so distracting and take the practitioner OUT of the body when the purpose is to remain fully WITHIN the body. OTOH - I just heard a senior Iyengar teacher say "you need to practice in front of a mirror for awhile" to get the alignment of a certain pose right. I just installed a large mirror in my home studio and I admit it helps with some poses, helps with our ballroom dance practice and makes the basement room feel bigger. But often I turn away to get the inward focus I need for a deep practice.
As far as evolution goes - it is inevitable for survival. I noticed a great deal of debate around this during the elections for pope. Should the church evolve? Well - it already has - it is just moving at a glacial speed compared to the rest of the world! But if a new pope can have a direct email address, I'm sure Bikram will evolve to keep his students happy, uninjured and coming back to his studios. | |
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| How would someone know if they are out of alignment? Case in point. I have seen many teachers of many forms of yoga doing a single leg standing posture. They know about hyperextending? They even talk the talk of it. Then I see their practice and they still are, not very much though. Go figure. How would someone know what balanced weight in the foot is if they never experienced it? They could just be assuming they do have balanced weight distribution in the foot. They can hear something from a teacher or read a book and think they are matching it. Why does alignment matter? Cause alignment makes being on the planet much , much easier. Being easier allows the body to lighten up, liberating ones energy for deep contemplation. Energy would be liberated from the physical body for subtle body work. It is a matter of velocity. Someone can do yoga by themselves and take lifetimes to get into true meditation. I have spent years stuck in certain postures, and found the resolution simple, obvious. I learned my lessons well, cause I was slow in getting to them. Would have been great to have a teacher point it out. Do you want to spend twenty years in an energetic or alignment pitfall or learn from someone who knows. How do we know someone knows? Their suggestions make it easier and quicken your process. Nothing wrong with going the slow long route. I get paid to quicken the process. It is a teachers job to be informed, take as many points of veiw and try them on. A teacher gains the most valuable element on the planet, trust. If you are not working on the issues, asking questions, trying things on, most likely your not in integrity of that trust. So you will have a whole studio getting stuck in the slow long way. Building Karma together. Honesty is the most important asset in my practice and in teaching. I use to own a Bikram studio, had many teachers. Worked with about twenty over the years. Some did get more training. Not one,did I think was experienced enough in their own practice, in their own bodies, to give help on special issues. But they did and I felt that was unethical. I did not say anything. We have the excitment and creativity of an unregulated field. And the negative of not being regulated which is undiagnosed yoga malpractice. And how would they know? No ones their giving them a yoga test. Our bodies are very subtle and sensitive. Treat it like a peice of metal and it just might be some day. The day Bikram takes out "lock the knee" and teaches people to do the postures the way he does it, I will be singing with the doves. Until then I am taking on this Karma because we are all in this evolution together. I wonder how much Karma Bikram has built up? | |
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| Bay Guy - 2005-04-30 8:32 AM
On Coulter's book, almost everyone who has touched that book seems to ocme away
saying what you've said. Impressive, detailed, surely important, and VERY hard to read
straight through.
The book is amazing. I like to read my books all the way through from start to finish and I even started this one that way. I didn't make it very far. I now use it as a reference book. When I'm thinking about a posture or a part of the body I consult the book (I also consult other sources but this post is about the book). This is the single most important book I've found that deals with the physics of yoga.
I just read the first part of Chapter Four, Standing Postures again. He begins by talking about locking the knees. He devotes a full page and a half to it and, in a nutshell, while he states it can be problematic if someone "absent(s) themselves mentally from the posture" while standing with a hyperextended knee "for several minutes" he also says, "there is nothing inherently wrong with simply saying, 'lock the knees.'" He talks about locking the knees being a natural thing to do and at the same time agrees with "instructors in dance, athletics and the martial arts" who argue that the "backs of the knees should never be thrust to the rear in a completely locked and hyperextended knee." My favorite line, though, is when he says he will "suggest... essentially locking the knees without using that troublesome phrase."
I don't mean to suggest that this guy is the final authority but he has my trust. His credentials are impressive, in anatomy and yoga studies. In three years of consulting this book as an aide to my teaching of Bikram Yoga I have found nothing in it to suggest that there is anything unsafe or 'wrong' with the Bikram Yoga Method.
Anatomy of Hatha Yoga by H. David Coulter
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| Two brief comments about the mirrors:
They were instrumental in helping me learn to be more comfortable with my body (not easily, mind you, and after much resistance).
I heard Bikram say that one of the primary purposes of the mirrors was that he hoped by staring into our own eyes we would eventually fall in love with ourselves.
They're about a little more than alignment...
(To My Cat's Mom: One of my reasons for being in this forum is to help correct what I see as a lot of mistaken assumptions about Bikram Yoga. Thanks for speaking up.)
Edited by ebenjen 2005-05-01 7:13 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
I practiced in front of mirrors daily for two years while I was doing Bikram yoga,
and, if you are in a position to see yourself, they can be quite helpful in aligning
poses. I haven't used mirrors at all since quitting Bikram yoga, and it was a bit of
a transition to learn to go without.
Without mirrors, I do find that my proprioception has been improving steadily. I have
much more of an internal feel for alignments (say the outward rotation of a knee or
foot, or whether an upward extended leg is straight and vertical). It is also more
meditative not just in the sense of an internalized personal practice, but also in the
sense of being in class without having to see everyone else in the mirror ahead of you.
Where I would sometimes like to have mirrors would be for working alignment in
some standing poses and some headstand variations. My substitute is to make
somebody take a photo that I can study later. Photos have been HUGELY helpful
to me in discovering problems that I didn't know about.
Of course, a teacher beats a mirror or a photo hands down, if the teacher is giving you
a one-on-one adjustment.
One downside of mirrors is that you don't always see the things that need work.
A hyperextended knee will go unnoticed by you if you are facing the mirror in
standing bow, standing forehead to knee, or balancing stick. It can be hard to
see hip alignments from the front as well (they're pretty easy to see if the mirror is
to your side).
I've often thought that having a mirror in the room where I now practice would be
useful *if* it had a curtain that I could pull over it most of the time.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Yes Bay Guy - a picture can be worth a thousand words! My teacher has been on a yoga friend's case about his headstand for years. When I brought a camera to take photos of a workshop she had me take a picture of him and in one second he saw exactly what she was talking about. And we DID have some sessions in a room full of mirrors a few years ago and he didn't get it then. Of course, perhaps he wasn't ready to see it at that time, either.
I have set up my digital a few times to take photos of myself in poses I can't see the mirror in. Down dog, for instance. I did try the mirror for chaturanga once and wrenched my neck really badly. The camera is better! | |
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| When I first started teaching, I was told how mirrors are so bad, and it's terrible to have to work in a gym because they always have mirror walls. For many years I practiced without a mirror, and you can't imagine the surprise and delight when I accidentally spotted myself in a very lovely and aligned Warrior II for the first time! I had been doing that pose for 9 years before I saw myself do it.
I tell my beginning students, the reason we practice without a mirror is so that they can start to learn how to listen to their bodies and get to understand how their bodies work from the inside out. Also, with a mirror they sometimes become distracted by the fact that a bra strap is showing or their butt looks big in this outfit, etc. Of course, I can really only tell them this when we are practicing in a room that doesn't have a mirror - they get so used to mirrors that they want to know how the heck they can "exercise" without one.
But, as long as the practitioner has learned to pay attention to how a pose FEELS and not just how it LOOKS, the mirror can become a useful tool. Once a pose is learned, the mirror (or camera) can help to refine your alignment for sure.
Now that I teach in a gym regularly (complete with mirror wall), I'm finding that a lot of the students begin the class staring in the mirror, but once they get into the poses they start to turn their attention inside and automatically close their eyes! From this, I see that the yoga is teaching them to listen within, I don't even have to prompt it. But, for balance poses I do sometimes tell them to gaze at a point on the floor instead of the mirror. Watching one's body wobbling often leads to more and more wobbling! Fortunately we have a lovely wood floor with lots of knots that make a great drishti. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I love my mirrors!! I have a contracting business. Whenever I get a job that a customer says take that mirror out, the very large ones goes to my house. There are 2 very large mirrors that I have in my mini Yoga studio. When I do Yoga, these mirrors are situated to give me a front and side view of myself and when I'm in triangle, I can see every aspect of the posture. This to me is very valuable for my home practice. For instance...how many people can actually say they are in alignment for Triangle pose without the mirror?? Like the bent knee NOT being aligned directly over the ankle and how would you be able to know if you didn't have a mirror to tell you? I know for me it would be very difficult to judge this posture without the mirror....although, I'm sure someone will pipe up and tell me how to do it without the mirror..but until then, I like my mirrors. Has anyone priced glass lately?? They are outrageous...my 2 mirrors are worth at least $600.
Oh yea, in Tadasana and Awkward pose...mirrors are also great for judging whether or not your belly is sucked in to get the full benefits for these postures. But, you really need to have 2 of them...better yet, there is nothing like an entire room full...I just try to avoid the seams...I hate seeing myself double - ick! | |
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| When I first started Bikram, I was self conscious of looking in the mirror. Now I don't even notice myself unless there is something I specifically want to check out. In no way did I feel the mirrors hurt me or prevented me from going inside myself. When I do yoga, most of the time I don't even notice others in the room. I've had people say to me, "Oh -- did you hurt your knee? I noticed you weren't doing such & such in class . . ." and I'm thinking, "I didn't even know you were in class -- why the heck are you paying attention to me?" | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Cyndi - actually, the seams can be very useful! If you stand sideways to the seam in tadasana, try to have the seam coming directly through the centre of your ear, shoulder joint, hip joint, knee and ankle. That is REALLY tough! and of course, you can do it facing the mirror and having the seam run through the center of your body and see how symetrical you are/n't. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 338
| I thought about this subject while I did my at-home Bikram tonight. I have a big mirror which is about a foot off of the floor. I feel the key here is sensuousness, not in the velvetty jazz sense, but in that senses become sharpened when I do yoga, especially when I do it at home.
The whole experience is so focused on my body and the internal feelingsand thoughts connected to movement thorugh the asanas. I notice which of my legs is stronger today, how my knees feel, if my feet hurt less etc. Part of this is seeing what I am doing and how my body looks. So much of my day is focused on doing and especially doing for others.
Its important to lookat and feel ourselves, not just to check up on weight loss, but
to focus outside of our heads.
I wish I could say there was a great spirituality happening, but noticing myself seems pretty spiritual right now. Yoga works at what ever level you are at. Just as I pay attention to finances, relationships etc, I now pay attention to how my muscles, tendons and internal orders feel at I stretch, compress and NOTICE them
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Gogirl,
I love my mirrors at home. There is nothing like looking into your own eyes and seeing the depths of your inner soul. Then to transform your physical body into doing these asana's it quite an experience. I cannot get the same experience in a studio, than when I am at home. Sometimes when I release blocked energy in a posture I can go so deep to the point that sometimes I cry, I laugh and I feel so connected with myself. Its a wonderful feeling and it is why I love the Bikram series of asana's. There is much to say about the order of sequence of these asana's and frankly, Bikram put together a very nice set. I have never felt this good and complete by doing other sets and other types of yoga, but that is my experience and I am happy with this practice.
Glad to see another at-home Bikramite BTW, how hot is your room at home?? | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 338
| Not hot enough. I have two small heaters and I may have to buy another. It's in the 80's or 90's i would guess. I do not have a thermometer.
peggy | |
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locked knees