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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
   
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I went away this weekend with my girlfriends to this spa. I go once a year and I'm familiar with the Yoga teachers there (who I like a lot). Saturday I wanted to take a Asthanga class taught by this woman Tracy but she was away so this other girl came in. I figured why leave, I'm here to practice and love trying out new instructors so I stayed for the class.
She was in her mid twenties and very nice but a hands on teacher. Well she had me and one other student (who was also an instructor) in pigeon's pose (full extension). My hips are always a little off the floor because I broke my pelvic bone in my early twenties. She came from behind me and started to pull my hips back from the creases. That didn't bother me so much. She then proceeded to place both of her knees on my lower back (sacrum) and place all her wt to take me down further into the pose. I told her my hips will not drop any further without strain. She stayed there placing her wt down on me. I should have said something. I was so passive (and I have personal space issues with being touched too).
Well, guess what? My back is really hurting. Been hurting for two days now. I am so tempted to call the spa and mention this to her superiors. What would you do? 
I really and not fond of hands on. For all who practice touch alignment, how do you know when to not push further.
Mishy | |
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| i would be angry at myself for not speaking up. how was she to know if you don't tell her?
also, i would calm down and give her presonal feed back, rather than calling her superiors. See if you can write her a note or email offering the following suggestions:
1. when giving a deep assist, such as the one you describe, be sure to ask students if it's ok and if they feel ok;
2. before class starts, ask everyone to close their eyes and listen to their breath. then, keeping everyone's eye's closed, ask those who wish not to be assisted to raise their hands so that you have a mental note of who doesn't want hands-on assists and who is open to this kind of assisting;
3. before going into a deep assist, ask if the individual would like to go deeper or has any limitations in the pose--this may lead to a different modification of the posture or the use of a prop, or it may lead to a different assist altogether.
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i write this because i am a late-twenties, hands-on assisting teacher. I do a lot of assists. Now, when i don't know someone--such as i wouldn't know you--i would not usually give a deep assist. i usually do one hand or two finger assists with new-to-me students. but, if i saw, throughout class, that you were adept with postures and had appropriate alignment, i might ask you--would you like a deep assist? do you have anything i need to know about before we do an assist together? is everything feeling ok at this point? where would you like to go deeper/explore more? Then, i do the adjustment. as i'm doing the adjustment, i ask "is this ok? are you still ok? would you like to go farther or back off a bit? everything fine?" i want to make sure that the student knows that s/he has the power and needs to only go as far as they want.
I do not know what her experience or background is, but it's appropriate to give her feed back directly. You don't have to do it in an angry way, but simply in a giving, constructively-critical way. This is a good learning experience for you; it can also be a great learning experience for her.
If you don't like to be touched, tell the teacher as she comes by. If you don't want a deep assist, say so. If it's enough, say 'that's enough." i've done it many times and even gently asked a teacher to let go of me or back off a step or two so that i could realign my locks or whatever other need i had. it's ok to speak up for yourself!
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since you asked a direct question of 'how do i know" there are a number of ways. With people who are 'new-to-me' and yet adept at postures, i open a dialogue throughout the posture. With people whom i know, i know their bodies well, where they're working. before class or during class i notice what is tight in them and what is open. I know their injuries and i know their movement signatures. i also know their energy and their body language. We have a dialogue throughout and before classes and after--and we have a relationship. For them, i don't have to ask as much becaus ei know them, and they know it's ok to say 'enough' or 'no' to anything that i may bring out.
i've never had a client have an issue with an assist or touch in my classroom. I have had a couple of clients have an issue with an adjustment while i was assisting with another teacher (other teacher was leading the class) because the client wanted the other teacher to assist him/her and not me. Once the person told me this, then i did not assist them. But it wasn't a problem with the technique, so much as a preference on the part of the student.
Edited by zoebird 2005-11-21 11:12 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Yeah, I was thinking I should write her a letter. I would go speak to her directly but it's too far away. When I told her of my injury, the discomfort was apparent in my tone.
Believe me, I am mad I didn't speak up. I actually had trouble getting out of pigeon. That's a new one for me. 
I need to speak up more. Honestly, she didn't seem very experienced, which is fine but she should learn to hone in on body language, signs, cues, etc.....
I do touch assist (but no pressure) but I ALWAYS ask, probably because I am so aware of it for myself. Rahini Yoga is all about modifying the pose for the body!!! Every body is different and treated as such. I think this is so important and should be reinforced over and over with new instructors (touching).
Oh, BTW, I didn't mean anything neg by stating her age.
Mish | |
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| well, at a certain level, there's nothing wrong with stating her age. it is pretty basic to assume that if someone is young, they're really new to yoga. they haven't had the opportunity of time to do yoga for a long time. but, regardless of age, many yoga teachers are new to yoga and new to teaching. In my area, it's not uncommon for a person to take yoga for a few weeks or months, then sign up for a four-month teacher training, and then within 1/2 of a year from their first class, start teaching yoga.
also, assisting is taught in my area, but there is a HUGE debate about it. A number of people have been sexually touched in various classes, which has caused some problems. Others have been injured. Other teachers believe that many assist techniques are 'violent body language' and do not maintain appropriate boundaries. So, there's a whole puritanical thing going on in my region. When assisting is taught, what is taught is often 'reactionary' to this--the deep, whole-body, hands-on assists. In the hands of new practitioners and teachers, you do get lots of problems--miscommunication being the biggest.
tone and body language can be hard to read from behind, to be honest--though a person should always work on it. On the student's end, we all need to learn how to speak up for ourselves and not be afraid to upset the teacher with a firm, but kind, "no, thank you." i've had to develop this technique myself--not being to reactive with a hyper "no ouch!" or something. I simply say "i need to back out of this, please." and usually teacher listens, no problem.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Zoe, I like everything you say 
Mishy
Edited by mishoga 2005-11-21 12:20 PM
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| We need to start a Zoebird fan club. Seriously, tremendous guidance. Mish, I know you're angry for not speaking up. I find the more relaxed I am, the more obnoxious the teacher. Here you are at a spa on a break and you probably had you're guard down--don't feel too bad about it. | |
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| You're kind of vulnerabe in pigeon pose, especially if somone has their hands (and feet) on you. I can see how it would be hard speak up in the moment.
Zoe did give good advice but if I were the yoga instructor's employer I'd like to know what my paying customers are experiencing. What you communicate to the facility managers/owners doesn't have to be incendary, just an eye-opening experience. Obviously, that particuar yoga instructor is inexperienced as a yoga teacher. This is a great opportunity for her to learn something extremely useful. It's not like you're getting her in trouble. As an employer I would want to constantly improve and offer the best experience possible to the patrons.
I'm just looking at this matter from management's point of view so they can better protect their customers. They probably don't currently have a policy regarding adjusting people in yoga class.
And, lastly, I don't mind being adjusted by a yoga instructor I've come to trust, and that just takes time. At a spa setting I would prefer not being touched, especially if the instructor is young b/c to me that signifies inexperience. | |
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| i have a management question, fif, that perhaps you can answer. it's something that gets me confused on a number of occassions.
i often find that when my clients come to me and offer suggestions or ideas, i take them in a spirit of openness and communication, letting them know that i hear them and that i will take their ideas into consideration. I do not take it as a harsh criticism or as a threat to my job or whatever else.
but, i find that when i have managers they often take even the most benign comments as these huge criticisms that often cause a great deal of hysteria among management which then comes back to me as 'you're being a problem.' i'm not quite sure why this happens, but it does happen.
i'll give an example. One of my employers recently added 5 yoga classes to the schedule (sept schedule added 5 to the existing 5 yoga classes for a total of 10 classes per week). After a few weeks, the management decided to cut two classes--one yoga class and one other aerobics class--for scheduling and population/popularity reasons. i was fine with this when one of my yoga classes was cut--it was no problem for me.
but, a few of my clients were really disappointed. they didn't want to take the other yoga classes offered at the same time on different days (with a different teacher), and they weren't able to take the hour-earlier yoga class that i taught. They asked me if there was anything that i would recommend for them, or that i could do to get the class moved up an hour. Since i'm not in charge of these decisions, and i suggested that they take the other yoga classes at the more convienient time with a different teacher and they didn't like that suggestion, i told them to fill out a comment card that the management reads.
I then contacted my manager and told her of the situation and how i told them to fill out comment cards. When the comment cards came in--about 1/2 dozen of them--there was hysteria with my manager's manager for 'mismanaging' the program and having a 'problem yoga teacher who stirs up trouble' and whatever else. I don't know. But anyway, people went into hysterics. Finally, i said "it's simply meant to open a dialogue. it's not a personal criticism or judgement. It's instructive and constructive if we want to meet the needs of our diverse community. Can we focus on this rather than pointing around for blame?"
that didn't go over well, i can assure you.
So, what is that deal with management? If mihoga were to call the management and tell them, would they go into hysterics? would they fire this yoga teacher without checking on the situation? I mean, i think that my employer would just fire me, never even asking me about it. that's the sort of hysterics that they go into.
why do people do that? i mean, why does management work that way? (sometimes, anyway). | |
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| In my (personal) opinion:
There is NO need for a Yoga Teacher to touch the Yoga Students, except when there is emergency such as falling from headstand, etc. All other instruction can be given without touching. And, above all Yoga Exercise is something one has to do with their own bodies, not with other's bodies OR get done by others for their own bodies (such as in massage).
If I were in your place: a) I shall immediately get up from the pose, and request the teacher NOT to touch me. b) If she is still touching, that will be called abuse.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
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| Of course, it the teacher is my guru, then I shall let him break my bones with happy face.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org | |
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| 1. i think it would be hard to get out of the pose if the teacher is on top of you.
2. my students and i like hands-on assists because they guide our bodies into the correct alignment, so that we can feel that alignment and then the next time we do the pose, we know what we're trying to do, how to get there, by what it feels like--because the teacher helped us get there in the first place. while i agree that it isn't absolutely necessary, it is helpful. | |
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| Mish, I think we're in the minority as non-touchy-feely people! Believe me, I respect teachers who give hands-on alignment cues and I've had some excellent adjustments that I found very helpful. But by and large, I do NOT like being touched! Unfortunately, I would never raise my hand at the beginning of class and say "Excuse me, please don't give me any adjustments or touch me in any way as it sorta gives me the willies." I'd be too embarrassed to call that attention to myself (especially because I have no real reason to feel that way). I figure, it's my thing I have to work through, so if a teacher wants to adjust me, I have to get through my uncomfortableness with that.
Adjustments I have liked have involved the least touching possible. Guiding someone into alignment with just an index finger is an art! At the Seane Corn workshop, she pressed down the ball of my foot with her big toe and didn't even crowd my personal space, I was impressed. My favorite teacher of all time finally got me to figure out Down Dog by putting his finger under the base of my index finger and telling me to press down. I'll be eternally grateful for that! But, I'll also be eternally grateful to the teacher that did not adjust me at all when I had a really lousy practice in her class. The truth is, I loved her class but was babying a large abdominal incision, so I didn't participate as much as I would have liked. She was kind enough to express concern after class and I told her what was going on. If she had adjusted me without warning, it could have gotten ugly.
So, as much as I respect those who do it right, I generally avoid giving a lot of adjustments when I'm teaching. Part of it, I'm sure, is a fear that I'll do it wrong and either hurt someone or just give them the willies! With beginners, I'll quietly ask how a pose feels for them (especially if they're doing something that looks a little wonky, or if they don't look comfortable). That's when they'll usually say "I shattered my hip 10 yrs ago so this position hurts" or something along those lines. That gives me the chance to offer a modification. Or if they just say "I'm fine" then I'll offer an idea that will get them deeper into the pose if their body is okay with that.
Sorry for rambling, none of this probably helps. I was just relieved to see that I'm not the only one who doesn't like being touched! In this field, it's odd to run across anybody else who feels that way. Yogis are a touchy, feely, huggy lot. Mish - thanks for making me feel less like a freak!  | |
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| *Fifi* - 2005-11-21 2:57 PM
At a spa setting I would prefer not being touched, especially if the instructor is young b/c to me that signifies inexperience.
I'm sorry, but that is ageism. Just because someone is young, does not mean they just started practicing yoga or that they are not qualified to teach yoga. I am in my mid twenties but I look like I am still a teenager and I encounter this attitude often in my teaching (not just yoga teaching). It makes it that much harder to teach when my students view me as inexperienced or not good enough because of their assumptions about my age. True, I do not have as much practical experience as someone who has been teaching for 30 years - but everyone has to start somewhere. Luckily, most of my students see past my age and are able to benefit from their practice. | |
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| jeans--
i think the assertion of your first paragraph is ridiculous. Sure, it's 'your issue' but it may also be 'your boundary' and it's perfectly appropriate to have that. Also, i wouldn't ask you to raise your hand and say anything--just raise your hand. no one else knows because *everyone's* eyes are closed. So, you're not bringing any attention to yourself. I would know, and i could respect that boundary.
realize also that it is important for people to speak up. the class is not about what the teacher wants. The class is about what you, or i, as the student needs. We're there for a reason, to have our needs met. Sometimes, we may not know what those needs are--we may not be fully attuned to them--but it's also appropriate to speak to those needs as necessary. If one of those needs is to not be touched, or to make mention of an abdominal injury/incision/scar, or to make mention of an ache or pain, then that's completely appropriate.
i think the issue is embarassment and not speaking up for oneself. that's the thing that needs to be explored. You should never be embarassed to put forth your needs. You should speak up for yourself and have your needs met. This is appropriate behavoir. This is how people avoid abuse and avoid becoming abusers! we have to communicate! | |
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| jeansyoga - 2005-11-21 3:25 PMMish, I think we're in the minority as non-touchy-feely people! Believe me, I respect teachers who give hands-on alignment cues and I've had some excellent adjustments that I found very helpful. But by and large, I do NOT like being touched!
<--- Not a big fan of being touched.
Yoga class helps me get over some of these sorts of issues. In my case I think a lot of it is a matter of habit, and not any sort of emotional trauma. I'd personally like to be a bit more open, and touchy-feely, so yoga gives me a chance to explore some of that.
If I had a teacher proceed with an adjustment after I had told her I didn't want it, I'd be upset. It's even worse that you're still having issues with it. OTOH, Zoebird's correct, if you do speak with management that has connotations of a Serious Problem. Generally because they expect people to ignore problems, or speak directly with the person involved. However, it sounds like you did that, and she persisted. The other question is whether it's worth kicking up a big fuss if you're not going to see her again.
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| Thanks for communicating by calling my statement "ridiculous." Ever wonder why people are embarrassed to share the weird things that are wrong with them? Because they don't want people to think they are ridiculous.
Sorry I shared. | |
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| jeans:
no, you completely misread what i meant or what i said. I think that the idea that you believe that your need to not be touched is somehow irrational, wrong, or should be ignored is ridiculous. I think it's entirely appropriate for you to feel that you shouldn't be touched. And, i think it's entirely appropriate for you to share that you shouldn't be touched.
i think it's entirely inappropriate to subject yourself to touch if you don't want to be touched. This is not a healthy boundary. It is entirely inappropriate to subject yourself to the authority of another "if the teacher wants to adjust me, so be it" when you know that you don't like to be touched.
I think that going against your better judgement regarding touch is not a good idea. To say that you should, or that you think you should, is ridiculous to me.
I do not think it is ridiculous that you are embarassed or that you don't like to be touched. These things are understandable. I understand embarassment comes from a deep sense of shame, and that you're deeply ashamed of being touched and you're deeply ashamed of the fact that you're deeply ashamed about being touched.
If you were in my classroom, i would prefer that you tell me that you don't want to be touched so that i could better serve you as a teacher and better meet your personal needs--physically and emotionally. I understand your embarassment, but at the same time, how can either of us work together in a healthy way until we really communicate? | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Hey Green, my main reason for concern with this instructor is that usually there are a lot of women who come to this spa and take the class as a novelty of the spa experience (maybe they do yoga 10 times a year, of course there are some you can tell that practice regularly).
My body is in tip top shape. I know and respect my limitations. I'd hate to think that this could happen to someone else. I don't want her to get in trouble but she should be made aware and so should the establishment. This is a very expensive spa, very well known too.
I go every year and I can tell you I will never take her class again. Not because it was bad, but because she directly hurt my lower back. 
Mish
Hey Jean........I'm with ya sista!!!!!!!!
Maybe I should change my signature to: HEY, DON"T TOUCH ME!!!! 
Edited by mishoga 2005-11-21 4:17 PM
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| i remember in this one workshop that i took that we had to have name tags on our mats (so that the teacher could learn our names). and the girl next to me had her name with "no touching" underneath it.
so it was "Hello, my name is Sarah No Touching." I think it's a good "native" name.  | |
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| mishoga - 2005-11-21 4:13 PMI'd hate to think that this could happen to someone else. I don't want her to get in trouble but she should be made aware and so should the establishment. Not because it was bad, but because she directly hurt my lower back.
Then write a note, or call them. Explain things in a very calm and polite tone, but be very firm.
so it was "Hello, my name is Sarah No Touching." I think it's a good "native" name. 
This also sounds like a very good solution. Our pilates teacher likes to give massages during savasana after her yogalates class. I'm really not a big fan of this during savasana, or any other disturbances, so the last time she came around, I just signaled her with my hands, and no issues.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Oh  I have a girlfriend who gives foot massages to all who want at the end of her yoga class. I don't like that!!!!!!!!! Imagine the germs. I keep thinking of that Lamisol commercial with the animated foot fungi
Mish
Edited by mishoga 2005-11-21 4:52 PM
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| I noticed that the title of this thread is Very Upset with a Teacher, not Lind of Miffed at a Teacher. There's a big difference.
Mishoga also mentioned the yoga at this spa tends towards novelty than serious. Big difference there, too. On what grounds does an inexperienced yoga instructor have to make serious adjustments on students she does not know?
Zoe, I don't know why many managers turn into bean counters. All I can say is that when a patient has a less than positive experience at our clinic, and I would like to know because my malpractice insurance is on the line, we have never fired anyone. Nor do we belittle in front of people or even in private. Quitely, new "policies" are instilled and all employees are on the same page. I just view the "negative" experiences as learning opportunities. None of us is perfect (even me, if you can believe it!  )
Well, what you call ageism I call my intuition. That's life.
And as for yoga teachers that have risen up the ranks like Seane Corn, well, she's earned "touching rights", especially if she's touching you with her big toe.
It's all pretty relative. Off to yoga! | |
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| This has really been a cool discussion. Controversy included.
Like a good Pisces I'm of two opinions about the touching issue.
I've been to workshops where the only people the instructor (of national renown) would adjust were the young pretty girls. This was true even though some women in their 40's were deeper in the poses.
I've known others who go to national workshops and come back infuriated with the inappropriate touches from a different male instructor.
No, I won't mention names.
On the other hand I've had some excellent experiences with adjustments.
The first came when the instructor would ask us to do low cobra then lift the hands off of the mat. For months I couldn't get my legs down. Finally the instructor held my ankles down gently and allowed me to get the right feel. I've never had trouble keeping my legs on the ground since.
Last September I went to Open Spaces in Lakeside Arizona during a vacation to the White Mountains. For the first time I was gently guided by a gentle touch to make a modifiication several times. They really worked well. It surprized me because I usually don't like adjustments unless the instructor knows me. If you're ever in Nortern Arizona I'd highly recommend this studio.
Mishy, I've noticed that deep adjustments are given only when the instructor thinks the student is advanced enough to progress further.
I totally agree on Zoe's not letting management know about the problems. My wife works for the government and just the fact that someone made a complaint is grounds for a reprimand, even through the complaint is later found to be groundless. A direct letter is best. maybe with a request that if she decides to respond that she wait a while and think about if for a while.
Edited by MrD 2005-11-21 8:24 PM
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| This is back to the theme of getting hurt in a Yoga class. I only had that happen once and I learned how to deal with a teacher that does not have the necessary ‘wisdom’ to teach a Yoga class. In my class, I was visiting a studio that I was unfamiliar with. The teacher was inexperienced which was obvious from her dialog; “Okay, now do this, now do that” as if she was simply following a script from her teacher training. She had us go into triangle pose from some ‘crazy’ angle and like an idiot I followed right along with her. As I moved into the ‘classic’ pose, my brain said, “Oh no, what was that?” I seemed to have injured a hamstring and it took me about 6 weeks to get back to normal. Because I work with so many teachers, I can usually spot the newbies now and pretty much do my own thing with them or hold back with anything that I am unsure of. And I wasn’t upset with the teacher, I was upset with myself for going blindly into that pose without being conscious of my body until my body said, “I’m hurt”.
The other thing that I am very alert to is how teachers explain “working your edge”. Some say, Yoga is not pain, so don’t go too far into that edge, or work that edge until you hit that place of “unwanted pain” and then there are the ones that seem to always want you to stay in that edge and “breath’ into the discomfort. Those are the ones that I am wary of, along with the ones that are clueless about that whole edge thing and encourage you, willy-nilly, to go into any pose despite being unaware of your level of expertise and physical condition.
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| MrD - 2005-11-21 8:16 PMLike a good Pisces I'm of two opinions about the touching issue.
That's a Pisces trait? And here I thought I was just being open minded all this time. Learn something new all the time.
<---- Pisces
I've been to workshops where the only people the instructor (of national renown) would adjust were the young pretty girls.
I've had similar issues with some instructors of either sex. I'm not entirely sure what to do about it, since I know when I see somebody I'm interested in, it's hard to take my eyes off of them, or stop thinking about them. I'm also pretty sure that there are teachers who are not giving adjustments just to the pretty, young things, who have similar ideas, though they don't act on them. Thus I find it hard to condemn the people who do act on them.
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| fifi:
i find it to be a strange thing when managers turn into reactive 'bean counters' as you called them. i wish that more managers would take a 'learning and improving' approach. I feel the same way about my insurance, etc.
what does 'rise through the ranks' mean, practically speaking? There are teachers who are more experienced and less 'famous' than seane corn, some who are even in the same age group. There are teachers who are just as knowledgeable but aren't gracing covers of magazines because they aren't as photogenic. I think that one of the problems with this idea is that it falls into the idea of celebrity--that celebrity somehow makes someone a good or appropriate teacher who has the 'right' to touch anyone.
if a person doesn't want to be touched, no teacher--no matter how famous or important--has the 'right' to touch that person. to do so is to violate the personal, emotional, and physical boundaries of that individual. it is violent and it is abusive. But, a teacher can only know if they are doing something wrong or inappropriate if the teacher is told that the student does not want to be touched.
when i worked in the girls juvenile detention center for one semester, i did not touch any of the girls because many had been sexually abused or sexually abusive. touch could send them to places of extreme rage or shame or whatever--and this could set back their processes in councelling and in their self healing. While many of us 'regular folks' do not hvae the extreme stress/abuse that these girls had suffered in our lives, our needs to not be touched are no less valid. No amount of experience or fame or 'rising in the ranks' would make it appropriate for a teacher to touch these students.
But, i think that from a management perspective, since the spa tends to function on the novelty approach, a recognition that deep assists should not be practiced is a good one. i do have a question though, that mishoga could probably answer--did this teacher give 'deep assists' to everyone or only to those people who appeared to be adept? this contextual element may make a big difference on the communication between her and management. | |
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| i find the working your edge thing really hard to describe when people hear things differently. with new students, i often find that they want to do the 'advanced' versions of the pose with horrid alignment that will lead to injury. But, their compensations don't cause any pain or discomfort.
so, i back them well out of that version, then modify heavily and then i may hold the difficult parts (where their body wants to compensate) in place while we modify and dilute around that space so that they can get the feel of the basic structure of the posture. While most people find that uncomfortable physically, i try to get them to dilute the posture around it and breathe to learn to relax into finding the place where there is discomfort (but not extreme) and they're 'heading in the right direction' into openning fully into the posture. of course, this part is only done after the first 6 or 8 weeks of class, as prior adjustments are done with verbal instruction and two fingers.
personally, i do 'believe in' and 'teach' the concept of moving into the space of discomfort--not pain, and not extreme discomfort--and breathing into that space. I also teach that it's not necessary to do that for every pose of every class--that it's better to work on an area of many poses or on one part of the body. That is, perhaps today every posture that works hamstrings will be an 'edge' pose, and every other posture will be more of an exploration of modifications and relaxing versions to set up and prepare for the 'edge' poses. or perhaps you'll work hip alignment. or perhaps you're working the locks through the whole class. or maybe there's an emotional edge that you're learning to work/work through. So, there are lots of ways of 'working the edge.'
i must admit that when my husband is in class, he gets very specialized attention. because we do thai massage about every night, i really know his body. he takes yoga class once a week, my class, and he gets a lot of specialized, deep adjustments that NO ONE else gets. but, it's not sexual in any way (thta is, it's professional), and since i don't know anyone else as well, i certainly wouldn't feel comfortable giving them some of the adjustments that my husband gets. | |
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| I had my girlfriend in a class once and that was the only time I actually had a male student come up to me after class very upset to complain that I was giving certain female students many more adjustments than I gave him. He said some of the women got 5 or 6 adjustments and he only got 1. The theme of the class that day was getting over judgments and "right" and "wrong." Apparently that part eluded this man. Certain students get more attention, but that's just the way it is. It's not based on looks. As a teacher, I adjust people for safety. I adjust people that need or want to go deeper and look like they are ready. And I adjust people that just look like they could use a little attention. Although everyone in the class is doing the same thing, not everyone is same. They each need different help and you have to choose who gets help where and when.
Some people have body language and facial expressions in class or an aura that says, "leave me alone." Sometimes i misread the signals. I generally follow my instincts about whom I should or shouldn't touch. Students that can communicate that they have issues are welcome because it lets me know my boundaries with them.
I don't like the ageism. I know lots of young teachers that are great. I look very young so I think I get some resistance from the older sect, but i have won some of them over gradually. I know a lot of older teachers that stink so I don't think age is a defining factor.
Another thing that you want to be aware of is that certain schools of teachers do deeper adjustments than others. I find that Ashtanga teachers and Jivamukti teachers do some deep adjustments. It's part of the practice. And some of them have very little regard for your particular pain threshold. Sometimes you have to take responsibility if you are going to something like a very strong ashtanga, jivamukti of vinyasa class that the teachers are going to be hands on and try to go deep. Sure for the new student it's hard to know. However, if you've done ashtanga and seem to know what you are doing, the teacher will assume that you have done some ashtanga and with that comes the assumption that you are used to deep adjustments.
Although I understand that some people have issues with touching, I come from the mindset that adjustments are part of the practice and part of the teaching. You convey energy through the touch--healing energy. You can convey things that can't be conveyed verbally. And, most importantly, a major part of the practice is making connections, making unions. You have to learn to get over the no touching issue, because we have to learn to connect and drop our boundaries. We are not separate from each other. We are one. And if you are constantly reinforcing the boundaries, you are not allowing yourself the freedom to be at one with other people. Letting go can be scary and dangerous but it is that that we find our freedom. Furthermore, you have to be able to connect with everybody, not just Mr. Jois or Mr. Iyengar because they are so great but with everyone in your life because that is true yoga. I'm not saying you should let people snap your back. I'm saying that you have to drop the boundaries and allow people in and make connections. That is how we heal ourselves, by getting closer to people, by getting closer to the oneness. Not by separating ourselves from each other and deepening the divide.
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| zoebird - 2005-11-22 8:43 AM
what does 'rise through the ranks' mean, practically speaking? There are teachers who are more experienced and less 'famous' than seane corn, some who are even in the same age group. There are teachers who are just as knowledgeable but aren't gracing covers of magazines because they aren't as photogenic. I think that one of the problems with this idea is that it falls into the idea of celebrity--that celebrity somehow makes someone a good or appropriate teacher who has the 'right' to touch anyone.
It's just a saying.
If someone, Seane Corn or whoever, consistently draws many supporters to their workshops then that person is doing something right in addition to not hurting people. Teaching is not just about doing - it's also about not doing, and communication and confidence and time management and crowd management...etc....
Look, no yoga instructor is going to be able to please everyone all the time. It's best to avoid hurting people, however.
I used to teach yoga in my 20s. I was hired because I was good at doing yoga. That does not a good yoga teacher make. I don't think being 45 or 75 years old necessarily makes one a good instructor. However, that 45+ year old will be more cautious with their students on the sheer fact that, more than likely, that 45+ year old has had some kind of pain, related to strain/yoga/athletics/sleeping funny/being overworked/repetitive stress/surgery.... and will have that experience tucked away in their consciousness when they teach class.
Now, being 34 y.o., I'm glad I had the opportunity to teach. I think all young, new teachers should be given the opportunity to teach. That's great. The world could use more yoga classes. But, even university professors start off as TAs before "rising to the ranks" in academia.
Maybe I take yoga too seriously but I see the applications of yoga as real physical therapy for patients. There will need to be a more sensible and realistic attitude from instructors for this to ever happen. I appreciate yoga.com so much because it draws a more serious yoga practitioner. And, I have to say, I am blown away at some of the excellent instructors we have here at our finger tips! | |
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| In reference to YG's last paragraph, I do agree very much in concept although I struggle with it in practice. I guess that was a better way of putting what I meant by trying to work through my uncomfortable feelings about being touched & adjusted. I don't WANT to feel this way, I want to be close to people and not jump out of my skin when they touch me (including stuff outside of class, like friendly hugs). So I sort of look at it the same way as doing a pose that I hate because it challenges me. It's a way to play my emotional edge, sort of.
What is the overall opinion on "adjustments" during savasana? The way I learned is it's not just a relaxation, it's a time for your muscles to fully integrate everything that happened in class (in my TT, we even did savasana after lecture classes to let our minds integrate the new info). Also it is an actual asana that involves stillness of the body and mind. That's one reason why I don't think the shoulder and foot massages some teachers do are very appropriate for savasana. Not just because I don't like it. It's one thing to adjust a pose so I feel it more deeply or modify it so it will work for my body. That doesn't seem to apply in savasana.
With one caveat - if people are having lower back troubles, offering a blanket for underneath the knees is sometimes helpful. And gently laying a blanket over someone so they don't lose too much heat is okay. Okay, two caveats. | |
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| seeing as seane corn was a teen in the late 80s (according to the bio on her web site)--i doubt she's older than you are. so, i don't think that she necessarily has the experience that you're speaking of regarding a 45+ year old than you do or someone my age (29) or younger does either. That is not to say, though, that we haven't worked with or experienced pain, suffering, or whatever else either, though.
but that's neither here nor there. just because a lot of people are attracted doesn't per se mean that that teacher has carte blanche to touch people, or that people (students) should simply allow it--against their own feelings and judgement--because other people are at that workshop. As someone else mentioned, i know nationally known and internationally known teachers who had 'risen up the ranks' and still did injurious assists or sexually touched certain students.
thus, regardless of who the teacher is, how well known they are, or how highly one thinks of them, one should not simply allow himself/herself to be touched if s/he does not want to be touched just because that teacher is somehow 'arrived' at some position of authority. i think it is really appropriate to say "no, seane corn, i would prefer not to have assists." and i bet that she would be cool with that, and had given a great instruction that would have done the work of the touch. This is also part of being a good teacher--but largely, it's important to be a good student and communicate with the teacher whether or not one wants to be touched.
i, too, am interested in the physical-therapeutic applications of yoga for my clients. i work with many clients who have various back pains, and i'm also starting to work in a physical therapists office teaching seniors and other special-needs clients. i certainly take this very seriously and i also take the issue of touch very seriosly when working with my clients. When working from a physical-therapeutic standpoint, i often find that gentle guiding assists with lots of encouragement and verbal instruction--as well as excellent use of props--works very well.
could you expand on your ideas related to this idea that you brought out: "There will need to be a more sensible and realistic attitude from instructors for this to ever happen." what practical approach should a teacher who is going into therapeutic applications take? | |
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| Just for the record, according to an interview w/ Ms. Corn in a recent magazine (I think it was Women's Health but don't hold me to that) she is 39 yrs old. Which means nothing one way or the other! Except that she looks awesome - healthy habits AND good genes, I imagine. 
Edited by jeansyoga 2005-11-22 2:51 PM
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Expert Yogi
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Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I think she is very attractive. Good genes for sure!!!!!
Mish | |
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| I am kind of taking an issue with all the talk (from several people, on this thread and others - not trying to single anyone out) of expecting people to be "good students" and always be upfront and forthcoming with a teacher about everything that is going on with them. This is our JOB. They are paying US. We have to be sensitive to their needs and not assume they are obligated to open a dialogue about what is going on with their bodies today. New students don't know this! And many are wary because they don't know what to expect out of a yoga class. They're not going to tell you that they were raped, or they're having their period, or that they were in a car accident 15 years ago that never bothered them until they did that pose. It would be awesome if everyone felt fine marching right up to say "I'm having a rough period, so I'm not going upside down today," but most will just hide in the corner and pray not to be noticed. I've actually told teachers that before class, but it's because I have done this long enough that I know she'll want to know that. 10 yrs ago, it never would have occurred to me.
I would prefer if an adjustment is to go beyond a one-finger (or one-toe) guide, a teacher would whisper "Is it okay if I touch you?" before going further. That allows the teacher to open the dialogue, it doesn't obligate the student to intuit that the teacher is about to touch and needs to know if you'll want that or not. It also lets the student know that they are empowered, that their body is a sacred space, and that nobody has the right to touch it without permission. | |
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| i agree with you jean in regards to the teacher also opening up the dialogue before going into a deeper assist. i mentioned that before--as well as my method. i also generally ask people questions as i see things in their bodies, even if they are new.
i'll ask questions such as--your hips look tight, do you have an injury or anything i need to be aware of? it's right in that persons space, it's whispered, and a simple yes or no will do and then i'll offer suggestions to modify or change the pose to something that may be more functional for that person's body.
i cannot read minds, nor can i intuit histories. this doesn't mean i need to know everything (like whether or not a student was raped or whatever), but i do need to know enough. it's ok to say 'no assists please' as the teacher walks by, or to ask them to stop assisting if s/he doesn't ask if an assist is ok.
But, i also completely agree that before going into a deep or more than two-finger assist a teacher should ask if it's ok, and if there's anything that s/he needs to know about regarding the body (like mishoga's pelvic issue--which isn't necessary to know before the class, unless it impacts everything, but is definately need-to-know before going into the assist that she described!). I can't emphasize this part enough either.
really, it does need to be a dialogue. teachers need to ask--students also need to tell. When the teacher isn't asking, then there's a problem. If the student isn't telling, then there's a problem. As both a student and a teacher, i try to work on both of these ends. | |
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| I'm with Jean on the approach to touching for adjustments if one's teaching style is to do so (In a purest form, I certainly concur with Beloved Brother Neel that if one were proficient enough as were the students, touching would not be necessary). However, most of us practice & teach Western Yoga. Seems if were attending classes where I didn't know a particular teacher's demeanor, I certainly wouldn't feel offended much less violated if I were touched to be aligned--by showing up at that class and signing any newbie paperwork, I kind of am agreeing to that teacher's style and if it becomes something I'm not comfortable with, I need to take the personal responsibility to say so. In any case, I wouldn't find it something so terrible, just a teacher trying to do their job. | |
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| Finally, someone put it into plain English - thank you, Jeansyoga. It really is the yoga instructor's responsibility to ascertain client/patient info instead of the student having to come to class armed with the zillions of possiblities that could happen during in a class if the instructor presses here or lifts there.
Anyway, everyone has good and valid points on this topic but we ultimately have to make decisions we feel comfortable with.
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| jeansyoga - 2005-11-22 3:09 PMI am kind of taking an issue with all the talk (from several people, on this thread and others - not trying to single anyone out) of expecting people to be "good students" and always be upfront and forthcoming with a teacher about everything that is going on with them.
I think people have a responsibility to take charge of their lives to the best of their ability to do so. Part of that involves direct, honest,and polite communication with the people around them, including their teachers. IIRC, most of the posts made so far have been with from students taking issue with various adjustments made by teachers, instead of the other way around.
If it had been the teachers saying, when I do X, I find that students leave, or I've been trying Y, and can't seem to get any feedback, what do you think, I'd also advise them to speak with their students.
Communication is a two way street, right now it appears to be the students that are voicing issues on the forum.
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| Of course communication is a two way street, but this isn't an ideal world. This is where we are. Certainly students should feel comfortable enough in any studio or classroom to state their discomfort with adjustments or address any injury with an instructor. AFter practicing for a couple of years now I have no problem speaking up with an injury or area that needs special attention, but as a newbie I kept to myself like someone else here said, hanging out in the corner hoping to be ignored. I think it's safe to say that most newcomers don't understand the way that subtle movements can trigger strong reactions whether it is physical or emotional. In that regard it is absolutely the responsibility of the teacher to approach the student and clarify what is appropriate. One teacher I have asks EVERY single time before she does any adjustments on me despite my having attended her class for 3 months and my love of adjustments. I love that she does that - she sees most of us for 1.5 hours a week so what does she know from our lives? Very little, but as the teacher she takes responsibility for creating an environment that provides students a chance to take responsibility for their own bodies and needs. Pretty cool. | |
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| We adjust savasana for people who are totally out of whack (head sideways etc.) and for those who ask for help (they bend their knees to say "help") but after the first couple of minutes we stop adjusting. There are things to be learned from a well adjusted savasana and things to learn from a "bad" one. I always tell people I am about to touch them for savasana adjustments since a startled student will not be able to relax! | |
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| My only experience with savasana adjustments (aside from getting a warm blanket now and then) was this knucklehead Yogafit teacher. Before I get the Yogafit people riled up, she had only done the one weekend and that was her ONLY exposure to yoga - the YMCA wanted a yoga class and she was available during the weekend the training was held. I know how it feels to be bullied by the boss at this Y so I can't fault her too much for teaching when she shouldn't have been.
Anyway, she came around the room and (I can only assume she did this to everybody) wrapped a towel around my head TIGHTLY then pressed it into my eyes, like a blindfold. Then she proceeded to "massage" my neck in a tight chokehold, and the fronts of my shoulders, as obviously the backs of my shoulders were on the floor. As those of you with big hooters know (esp. over age 30), the "sisters" tend to slide north when you lay on your back in a sports bra, so it felt like she was feeling me up! AAACKKK!!!!! She gave no warning this would happen, and it was a good 5 minutes into the savasana. Since I work with her as a fellow YMCA teacher, I just didn't feel right going "Cut it out Wendy, GEEZ!!"
Not that there's anything wrong with being blindfolded and felt up, but not during savasana! | |
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| Sweetie - you have GOT to get on a plane to see your husband soon! | |
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| First, you needed to set boundaries firmly (and I am someone who struggles with this and still learning too!) ...but it is NOT needed to push anyone into a yoga asana EVER. The body will do what it can - it should NEVER be assisted.
mishoga - 2005-11-21 10:52 AM
I went away this weekend with my girlfriends to this spa. I go once a year and I'm familiar with the Yoga teachers there (who I like a lot ). Saturday I wanted to take a Asthanga class taught by this woman Tracy but she was away so this other girl came in. I figured why leave, I'm here to practice and love trying out new instructors so I stayed for the class.
She was in her mid twenties and very nice but a hands on teacher. Well she had me and one other student (who was also an instructor ) in pigeon's pose (full extension ). My hips are always a little off the floor because I broke my pelvic bone in my early twenties. She came from behind me and started to pull my hips back from the creases. That didn't bother me so much. She then proceeded to place both of her knees on my lower back (sacrum ) and place all her wt to take me down further into the pose. I told her my hips will not drop any further without strain. She stayed there placing her wt down on me. I should have said something. I was so passive (and I have personal space issues with being touched too ).
Well, guess what? My back is really hurting. Been hurting for two days now. I am so tempted to call the spa and mention this to her superiors. What would you do?
I really and not fond of hands on. For all who practice touch alignment, how do you know when to not push further.
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| I'm with Glenda--think Jean is about to explode...and where does Wendy teach...been awhile since I was felt up. | |
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| Jean is off to do a bit of re-organizing and then will go to see her hubby quite soon. I'll bet she is feeling much calmer when she returns | |
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| tourist - 2005-11-23 7:05 PMJean is off to do a bit of re-organizing and then will go to see her hubby quite soon. I'll bet she is feeling much calmer when she returns
He he he he
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| The issue here isn't touch, it's boundaries.
If the student does not set clear boundaries with a teacher, it needs to be done asap.
It is also needed to state that the yoga teacher does not "heal" but should be teaching the student to use the tools of yoga to heal themself. I personally feel that anything "assisted" in yoga is pretty much moot to the student. If the student doesn't do it themself, they are not really DOING it themself, kabeesh?
As far as boundaries, the issue is to be firm and stand by your word. If you said that you didn't want to be touched, that is it. No means no.
I personally have worked with a myriad of clients over many, many years - and in yoga - there is never a reason to touch anyone. Never. You can show someone something, you can guide them - but you need not touch them. If someone has limited communication skills, yes, touch may be the way to tactile teach. It isn't wrong, but it certainly isn't smart in a day and age where the reality is - many people will silently stew over your sometimes careing touch.
I think a lot of people assume that because someone is popular (the Yoga Stars on DVDs and workshop circuits) that they know more. I feel this is a farce. First, the only reason why these people are "stars" and such is because most of us "follow" ---ie, if x is popular we feel they must be pretty **** good.
Let's get real - some of us have paid or are willing to pay BIG BUCK to say we "studied with" someone at some lame three hour workshop - where 80% was lecture and sales of books and such.
This to me, is marketable, and sometimes valid - but to meet and mix with each the other here, free - is probably a much more enlightening path on many levels - including wallet.
Point here? Teachers of any age or demographic - even new teachers - can add - or can delete some force from your life.
If you find someone and feel it is or is not working for you to continue this relationship - cut ties or work it out so that it DOES work for you. I think to say that someone has nothing to offer because he or she is 25, 15 or even 5 --is catty and small minded. In this "yogic thinking" we all should have, where is the acceptence???? Why are we gullible to think that because someone has lived x number of years or practiced yoga their way for x years, that this makes them BETTER?????
I can learn as much from watching a fruit fly as I can from watching an old turtle; maybe more.
I also would not state that the fly is any more or less important in the scheme of life than the turtle; they both offer our world something different.
Boundaries are important, and maybe this is a part of what your practice is teaching you right now | |
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| By law, a health care professional MUST have consent to touch.
By law, an educator must have consent to touch.
We may not fall into either, but we actually overlap both and it would be ethical and quite smart legally, if we teachers don't assume our students deserve or expect anything but high professional standards from us. And that includes consent to touch.
Additionally - people need not ever tell us their issues to be honest with you. We do not NEED to know if someone was raped and so on. It makes OUR job easier to know this but it is not what yoga is about.
What yoga is about as a teacher, is making blanket statements of responsibility, such as reminding before a posture that if you are less than three days in menses, you should refrain...
We may state even to the class that emotional issues may surface.
It's really none of our business what is going on with the clients unless THEY come to us and WANT to share.
It's not our yoga journey; it's theirs. We are just showing them tools to use for their own journey. We are not driving them on their journey. | |
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| michele - of course you are right and there is no absolute need to touch. But it does make the point more easily and can speed up the learning. In Iyengar we make adjustments and then instruct the student to keep the new position on their own as much as they can. So if we use a belt to lift the hips in down dog, we ease off the belt and say, "now you hold it." So this way the student has some muscle memory the next time they do the pose. I have had some big "aha" moments from physical adjustments so I feel they are valid. That said, I am selective about who and how I touch, for sure. | |
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| booga - 2005-11-26 4:57 PM
I personally have worked with a myriad of clients over many, many years - and in yoga - there is never a reason to touch anyone. Never.
I find blanket statements like this rather unhelpful. It presupposes that touching is somehow bad. It speaks more to your own issues and biases, Booga. You are entitled to your opinions, but taking a hard stance against touching people seems shortsighted.
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| i do also make a statement before i teach a class--if there are new people present--that i do give hands-on adjustments and that if you don't want to be touched, please let me know. So, at a certain point, i then function from the assumption that unless they say otherwise, they consent to the touch because i made the announcement.
also, i have to admit that many of my clients are thrilled that i give adjustments. many of them come from teachers or studios where the teacher either stood at the front of the classroom and did the poses or sat in the front of the class room and called the poses. they said that they never knew if they were doing the posture properly, and they never got to know the teacher and make that relationship that we have. Once they started with me, they felt more confident in their postures and were more easily able to enter into the pose--because like what tourist said, it's really about making muscle memory.
and of course, i always use lots of methods such as demonstration, explaination, directional pointing, etc.
but, in light of this post stream, i gave myself a personal challenge to assist as little as possible during a class--or to only use light assists (two adn three finger adjustments). I find that light assists were just as informative as 'heavy' assists, and i only did 'heavy' assists when asked. it worked out fine. | |
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | YogaGuy - 2005-11-26 10:22 PM
booga - 2005-11-26 4:57 PM
I personally have worked with a myriad of clients over many, many years - and in yoga - there is never a reason to touch anyone. Never.
I find blanket statements like this rather unhelpful. It presupposes that touching is somehow bad. It speaks more to your own issues and biases, Booga. You are entitled to your opinions, but taking a hard stance against touching people seems shortsighted.
Your right YogaGuy. Once on this forum I talked about how I hated being touched...but not for the same reasons, sexually or whatever that you guys are talking about. There are times I simply don't want an adjustment in certain poses that I KNOW are going to send me to the edge that maybe I'm not ready for yet and I already KNOW it before the teacher comes near me. I have no problems whispering my concerns to an instructor if she tries to take me further than I KNOW I am NOT ready to go to, but thankfully, my instructor is very intuitive to my needs and hasn't failed me yet. Sometimes I have voiced a concern and she lightly approaches me and that's even better when she senses my need and gently pushes me instead. Overall, I welcome the teacher to touch me...especially in half-tortoise, like please put your foot on my A$$ to hold it down so it will touch my heels,
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| Yeah, it's an old thread but I'm just catching up and feeling oddly like replying to things today. I'm just blown away by some of the descriptions of "adjustments" from people on this site. I've seen them in this thread and many other threads and I'm always stunned. Sure, everyone has a different opinion on this but to my thinking at the very most I can envision situations where an instructor would place a finger on a student to demonstrate the proper direction of rotation. Beyond that, it's not only uncalled for but it goes against what yoga is supposed to be in my opinion. To cite the example in the original post Mishoga was in rajakapotasana and her hips were not all the way on the floor. An instructor may point that out, could even place a finger on the side of her hip and try to show her the direction of rotation if it appeard that Mishoga was confused, but that's about the end of it. Anything else comes not from "yoga", which is, if I recall, binding the body, mind and spirit. It comes from a desire for attainment or success. If this instructor had succeeded in getting her hips all the way down then she would have felt successful. It was a selfish, egotistical act and it's way too common in yoga classes. It becomes all about what can be done rather than what can be experienced. I've read other posts of instructors pushing or pulling people not to correct alignment but to deepen a pose. When the body is ready to go further it will! Take something simple such as Baddha Konasana. If a student's legs don't go all the way down then they are not ready. Pushing them down, as has been described in another thread, accomplishes nothing. The instructor has passed along no wisdom and the student has gained nothing. If a student's legs are down in Baddha Konasana, or hips in Rajakapotasana, through outside assistance then I'm sorry, that student is NOT in that pose. They are merely pretending and all that they are learning is that violence against their own body is acceptable if it brings about a false sense of attainment. Asanas are not attained, they are mastered over time, and that process is full of experiences and discoveries. No amount of weight on someone's hips will bring about mastery. This is the same thinking that I have read on here from time to time that says that if a student is physically able to perform a pose correctly then it's ok. I think I read that thought process in a thread about teaching new students Bakasana, with the thinking being that some can get into it right away and it gives them a sense of accomplishment. Simply getting one's physical body into a prescribed position does not accomplish anything, and promoting a sense of accomplishment for balancing on one's hands without really understanding the intricacies of balances, of breathing and expanding in them, shortchanges the student. But I'm in full ramble now and it's probably best to stop typing. | |
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| Yes Steven I think adjustments are a big question. I have had some quite intense adjustments from VERY experienced teachers that brought me into a full pose (bound maricyasana III for example) that I will likely never fully achieve on my own. I appreciated them though, not for any sense of accomplishment but for giving me the experience fo the pose and giving my body the sense memory that can be stored just in case I get there one day. I do not do adjustments like that myself and neither do my teachers who have 30 years of experience but not because we feel they are "wrong." We just aren't qualified or skillful enough to do them. I do some adjustments however, that are much more than a point in the right direction. I will put my foot on a thigh to hold it down while the student lifts the other leg for supta padangustasana. I don't push it down, but stabilise it so they understand the pose better or can go more deeply into their own range of motion. So that might seem extreme to some but I feel it is both safe and helpful. OTOH, the gentle, one finger "move here" adjustment is wonderful because then, if it is done well and the student really is able to do the action, then it is all their own work and there is indeed more of a feeling of accomplishment  | |
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| Well said, Steven. Very thoughtful. | |
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| Like I have said before there are different kinds of adjustments. Some are subtle, like the finger touch. Some are deep like the Marichyasana C/D adjustments. Personally, I like both adjustments. I equate it to Thai Massage. Some deep adjustments just feel awesome. Although, I think everything has a time and place. You can get a lot out of thai massage, regular massage, partner stretches and deep adjustments. You have to be open to it. The fact is that you can't do everything yourself. You can learn a lot and do certain things that are just impossible by yourself, if you have help.
Why limit yourself and your experience? | |
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| Touching is such a contentious issue.
Someone who feels anxious about being touched is not likely to announce it- issues! Likewise, teachers expose themselves to false allegations.
As a male teacher I avoid touching female yogis becasue anywhere can be construed as intimate; likewise, as a gay person, I avoid touching male yogis too because anywhere can be construed as intimate- go figure! LOL
I assume no one likes being touched and guide them indirectly;- eg if in plough-" straighten your legs till they touch my hands; pull your shoulders back until you feel my hands etc ...
I had a client I knew fairly well, but when I touched between her scapula she literally bolted out of her skin! Fortunately it was a forward bend so no harm was done but i learnt everyone has different "space issues." I also announce to my classes that if they require assistance/adjustment to call me. that also give me an idea of who welcomes further assistance.
RE: your original session where the teacher forced and hurt you. I learnt that mistake twice from one of my teachers. now I just say NO! and I teach my classes to say NO! too. Nobody understands your body better than you do, likewise, there is no such thing as a perfect posture that allows anyone to force you into.
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| My two teachers have very differing approaches.
My Sivananda tutor (male) is almost entirely verbal in his corrections. Very occassionally he will ask a student if they would appreciate adjustment. If yes, there's a finger-tip prod. He'll often get one of his more experienced students to demo at the front of class in order to point out areas of weakness/strength to the rest of us.
My Iyengar teacher is more frequent and deeper with her adjustments. She'll gently use hands or feet to get you right. We also do more partner yoga in my Iyengar class such as mirroring downward facing dog in order to encourage each others heels down. She'll often use a strap or block to adjust. Blocks can be very useful in flattening hips for example as that touch could be a very intimate one for some, but with a block between you and the tutor, it's maybe not so contentious? She also uses students to demo, sometimes getting them to wear their belt to emphasise where lines should be straight.
Personally, I prefer my Iyengar teacher's approach as I feel I've learnt more about my own spatial awareness with her in a few short weeks than I have done in ages in my Sivananda class and I know I need pushing sometimes as I lack courage in certain asanas. It seems to be showing on my body too as my inner thighs have tightened a lot during this set of classes (we've been focusssing on the correct leg and hip work for standing poses, particularly triangle). I can see that some would have issues though as her verbal observations and touching are a lot more intimate (in the good sense).
I find I get more out of my Sivananda class spiritually however as we do breath work, chanting, and deep relaxation to a much greater extent and the vinyasa sequences work my heart more.
I intend to find a weekend class in the New Year to explore learning from different tutors/traditions further. Any tips on what features of the class description I should look for given that I'm looking for something restorative to balance Monday night's Iyengar alignment 'torture' and Wednesday night's Sivananda' exhausting vinyasa :-) ?
Fee
Edited by Orbilia 2005-12-19 9:58 AM
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| YogaGuy, you are full of wisdom! Made for excellent reading and food for thought.
I find "sometimes" i limit myself in poses to how far i think i can go (muscle memory) and here comes teacher and skillfully gently puts me deeper than my mental limits were allowing me. in other words he/she can see i can go deeper, where i could not see. this is the importance of adjustments. on the same token, sometimes teacher comes round and says "uhh maybe not today" when i am trying to put the left leg behind the head and its still not happening (sheesh!! when???)
the first yoga studio i used to go to - the owner/manager was a practicioner but not a teacher. whenever "my" teacher was absent i would frown and she'd be like "it's not about the teacher, it's about the yoga" and so ok that made sense at the time. but now, i know it is all about the teacher i'm vibing with. maybe not in misha's case but i find that often the management doesnt necessarily have the yoga experience that the teacher does especially at a spa or gym or even a studio given that their main focus is outside of "the yoga." so this translates into a focus on nurturing the "client" (i prefer student) rather than nurturing the teacher. then what develops is, because i have become close friends with some of my teachers i know this, an antagonistic relationship between teacher/manager due to manager/client relationship. when it should be all about teacher/student. maybe not in the case of injury related things but many of the "complaints" - i also worked behind the desk at a studio - are quite petty. oh the teacher didnt do headstand, oh the class was too hard, too easy, too many people, not enough people. all that translates to management pressure to the teacher.. do this, do that.
when i was a new student, i thought an "injury" was something that only happened when one was in a car accident. i think sometimes experienced teachers may expect maybe too much from students in the sense of communication. in fact the less i said and faster i was in and out of there the better for me at that time.
anyway this has been a great topic.. ciao | |
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Very upset with a teacher