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| Inversions and menses? I have yet to say anything about it. I read that the reason for avoiding inversions is b/c it can make your period heavier & also to honor your body during the moon phase. I have always done inversions no matter my cycle and it does not effect me, but realize it must be a problem for some women. So, how do you talk about it? I must admit, silly as I sound, I'm embarrassed to be talking about people's menstruation. I am prepared to get over it, but would like to know how some of you discuss it with your class.
Edited by Kym 2006-02-24 5:00 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well, its a natural thing, right?? So, you shouldn't worry about beating around the bush. You can always find an elegant way of putting it. Like for instance, your dialogue could be something like this, "Ladies, this next posture is an inversion, if some of you are on your monthly cycle, you may want to set this one out, and for you ladies that are familiar and okay with inversions, let's begin". I wouldn't make a big deal out of it unless during the hold times, you can make a mention of why the posture might be uncomfortable and avoided during this time...make it brief and quick...but most importantly to the point without giving much details. Also, yoga is all about the body so no one is going to have a problem and if anything, will be appreciative of your heartfelt concern. | |
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Expert Yogi
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| I don't make a big deal out of it. When it comes time to teach shoudlerstand i just say "Ladies, we don't do shoulderstand while we are menstruating so anyone who is not going upside down today for ANY reason - neck problems, whatever - please get these props and go to that corner and I'll give you an alternate pose to do." I do demo inversions sometimes when I am menstruating (I hope Geeta Iyengar doesn't lurk here!) but try to find a student to demo for me if I can. Some balk some whine, some are horribly embarrassed but we all get over it. By Level II most are ok with just telling me and by Level III it has become a non-issue. In our advanced classes we just call it out to the teacher or say "Red Tent today!"  | |
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| I do not discourage women not to do it during their menses, but I have a different opinion and references from others in different yoga styles.
Much to what others believe - i think its good to give the gravitational pull on the organs a bit of a break, especailly during this time.
I do inversions, and all my students do inversions with no adverse effects.
If they are in that much pain I don't think inversions would be the main asanas they would have issues with.
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| I was told to teach my students to avoid inversions during their mense. Especially during the first three days, which is most critical because of the increased blood flow at that time.
I've been taught that too much inversion during mense can cause "toxic shock" because the old blood can get trapped when in opposition to gravity. Also, it just sort of makes sense that you're trying to rid the body of the blood, and going upside down halts or delays that process at least some degree. So, better to be safe than sorry. I teach my students not to do it, but if they've learned otherwise, at least I've warned them.
Carole
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| unless your holding your inversion for over an hour I cannot see how these effects could possibly happen...
really, you don't stop producing feces or urine while you are inverted, and that could cause just as much toxin in the system. Your body doesn't stop working just because you went upside down for a few minutes.
What you are taught is one thing - but if you want facts there are many papers that can go either way, but don't scare women into not doing positions because someone told you so. When women ask me I tell them that they should go and make an educated decision for themself. But I know some yoga styles teach that upside down is bad... but most times that is males that have come to that conclusion...
I have never had toxic shock and, in fact inversions actually help aleviate some of the massive pain I get during my menses.
Do your research... and educate your students to make their own minds up about it, if they aren't comfortable with it, then support them, if they are comfortable, then support them as well. | |
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| shnen,
I'm so glad someone else thinks this. I was trained to not even do forward folds during the first two days of the menses, which wasn't going to happen in teaching. Finally I did a little more research and decided that no one had given a good reason for this precaution.
Neither the western toxic leak idea, nor the eastern idea that you shouldn't reverse the downward energy ring true to me. I mean, to feel better wouldn't you want to balance out the downward energy? Unless I feel so bad I don't want to do anything, I do normal yoga during my menses.
When my students ask I tell them that many experts say that they shouldn't do inversions, but there is some disagreement on the topic. I let the reasons why some people say they shouldn't do inversions and I let them decide for themselves.
Edited by skatrenah 2006-02-25 7:35 PM
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| I personally lean toward the findings that inversions will do no harm during menses. Just doesn't to make sense to me, I've never had a problem, have never heard of anyone having a problem, and the research does not seem to support it adequately.
Maybe that's why I'm uncomfortable with announcing that women should not do inversions during their cycle. I don't think it's correct. Most of what I read is wishy-washy at best. And I bet for anything someone could find that says not to do it, someone could find an equal number that said it was ok.
For now, since it does not ring true to me, I'm not going to make announcements about it. If I read something compelling, I'll change my mind. If anyone asks me about it, I'll tell them what I think, then encourage them to do a little extra research themselves and make their own decision.
Edited by Kym 2006-02-25 9:30 PM
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| Here is something I just found:
First of all, there is no consensus on whether to avoid inversions during a woman's menstrual cycle. The two opinions are basically divided between those who think that no women should practice inversions during menstruation and those who feel the choice varies from woman to woman.
Those who encourage a ban on inversions cite fears that certain physical problems may arise. Until recently, increased risk of endometriosis was considered the most common risk. But since more is known now about that disease, the idea has been debunked. There is also a theory that inversions may cause "vascular congestion" in the uterus resulting in excessive menstrual flow. (For more info, click here.) If true, this risk is probably most relevant for women who hold inversions a long time. Some teachers say that since a woman's energy is low during menstruation, high-energy poses such as inversions should be avoided. This makes sense, yet not all women experience low energy during menstruation; indeed, many feel quite energized.
Philosophically speaking, menstruation is considered to be apana, meaning that energetically, its vitality is downward-flowing. The argument against inversions during menstruation maintains that inversions will disturb this natural energetic flow. However, inversions are recommended in some systems of yoga as therapy to improve elimination of excess apana. In Yoga: The Path to Holistic Health, B.K.S. Iyengar recommends practicing inversions to alleviate menstrual problems such as heavy flow and irregular periods.
The contradictions don't stop there. Some teachers recommend avoidance of inversions such as Sirsasana (Headstand) and Sarvangasana (Shoulderstand) while suggesting no such caution with other poses that invert the uterus, such as Uttanasana (Standing Forward Bend) and Downward-Facing Dog.
Since I know of no studies or research that makes a compelling argument to avoid inversions during menstruation, and since menstruation affects each woman differently and can vary from cycle to cycle, I am of the opinion that each woman is responsible for making her own decision. Pay attention to how you respond to inversions (indeed, ALL asanas) during your period. A short Headstand may be fine while a longer one isn't; maybe you will find that backbends or twists adversely affect your period. If your energy is very low, restorative poses may be just the ticket, though you may find a more active sequence of standing poses alleviates cramps and the blues. You really won't know what works and what doesn't until you feel it in your own body.
The bottom line is that hatha yoga is full of contradictions and varied opinions, leaving each of us ultimately responsible for our own choices. Pay attention to your body and discover what works and what doesn't—not just during your period but every day.
Barbara Benagh, YJ's 2001 Asana columnist, founded the Yoga Studio in Boston in 1981 and teaches seminars nationwide. Currently, Barbara is writing a yoga workbook for asthmatics and can be reached at www.yogastudio.org.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Sorry I don't have time to do a full reply to this but I must say that Path to Holistic Health refers ONLY to doing inversions before and especially right after menstruation. I realise this is not exactly clear in the book and there are some places where the editing is plain wrong. Somewhere in that book it says to use a yoga strap 2 feet long  So there are errors.
I absolutely respect Barbara Benagh however I have to accept the wisdom of the Iyengar family who, between the three of them have seen many, many thousands of students over the years and have a unique pespective on what does and doesn't work over a long period of time. Geeta has practiced for 50 years or so and is an Ayurvedic doctor. I take her advice over anyone else's. | |
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| I guess it will always be a topic that noone really has any hard proof for or against it... until then I will let my students make up their own minds - educated of course.
Not one medicine is right for every single body, so one line of thought should follow the same basis.
I am glad that some agree with me, Skatrenah & Kym... I notice that there are a lot of practitioners on the boards here who are very dedicated to their style of yoga that I know don't support it!
I am a teacher - my job is to teach and educate... not push beliefs on my students. They can make up their own minds.
Edited by shnen 2006-02-26 7:47 AM
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| i think it is a topic that is infinitely debateable, so feel free to present that debate to your students. when teaching inversions, i always will state that one of the traditional contraindications of this posture is menstruation. I also state that some women feel comfortable (or even more comfortable) doing inversions during menstruation--that it can help relieve some of the discomforts of menstruation. then, i tell them to do what feels best for them--and i provide an alternative posture for those--menstruating or not--who do not want to do the pose.
For example, when teaching shoulder stand, i'll also give the other contraindications--such as people with glaucoma should not do this posture, or if they have other eye problems such as the risk of detatched retina. I'll say this as well as the menstruation stuff--so i'm teaching all of the contraindications at once. I give the alternative pose (allignment and such), and then also the shoulder stand, and then i'll explain the 'debate' about whether or not inversions should be done for glaucoma, for menstruation, for whatever else, and why.
most people are intellegent and will make up their own minds. I do inversions during my mensus because when i was first doing yoga (as a child), when i started menstruating i kept practicing like i always did--not knowing of the contraindication (apparently, my mother didn't either). I love shoulder stand and plow pose as part of my closing sequence, and i found that during mensus--particularly early on, shortly after menarche--i really enjoyed these postures as they took the strain off of my lower back (i would sometimes get mild 'back cramps'). I've never had a health problem from doing this--in fact my menstrual cycle has always been really mild and great (no cramps; bloating is my worst thing, and i do yoga for that specificly).
I strive to present to my students what the debate/discussion about this is, where it comes from (where i think it comes from in the tradition), and what other perspectives exist. Some people will side with tradition (and their experience), and some people won't (based on their experience). And that's ok with me. But i teach it as 'either way, make up your own mind' and 'here are the arguments for and against.' | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Just a couple more thoughts, since I know people ultimately have to make their own decision on this. I am not "pushing" my ideas but responding to questions.
1) Lots of things feel good but are not good for us. I have all kinds of inflammtory examples of this, but let's go with a silly one. People who liked Barney the dinosaur (*gag* you know where I stand on this!) said it was good for kids becasue it had constant repititions of songs they enjoyed. That did not make it high quality programming for children.
2) I have trouble understanding why people feel it is a better idea to go with their own intuition than with the opinion of some of the most highly respected yoga masters on the planet. I do understand those who are looking for western science to verify their beleifs but do remember that almost everything the yogis have ever said has been proven true when we are finally able to measure it. | |
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| Here again-you may think Barney is not a good show, but I do. I loved how the show promoted certain social skill such as sharing, cleaning up, and manners. Just goes to show that even though you may think something is bad, someone else thinks it's good. I was an educator before staying home with my kids, so I'm not talking from a complete lack of education on the matter.
I know we're not discussing the merits of Barney, but your example didn't exemplify for me that people can't make decent judgements for themselves.
As for listening to people of power & heritage, I still think it's a very good idea to discern for yourself what it is right and what is not. People are fallible and information changes. There was a time that the brightest minds on earth thought the planet was flat.
Edited by Kym 2006-02-26 1:50 PM
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| Since I'm new here, I want to add that I'm not trying to be argumentative-just discussing. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I say follow what feels right. I instruct to listen to your inner voice!!!!
Happy Sunday all! 
Mishy | |
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| The only yoga 'style' I have found to say women shouldn't invert is Iyengar and Iyengar based teachers, besides that I have found nothing that says it shouldn't be performed.
No doubt Iyengar (and certain followers of Iyengar) is one of the great instructors, however he isn't the only one.
There are various opinions out there just as educated that say the opposite - so how can you write them off?
My students always know that no matter the pose - no matter the time of month (for men and women ;) ) if they are feeling something off or wrong, to come out of it and let me know.
Out of curiosity - how long does everyone have their classes hold inversions... lets say shoulderstand? | |
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| The only full inversion I teach is shoulder stand and I only teach it in classes where I can trust students to listen to their bodies. I was trying to work them up to 5 minutes on the advice of Iyengar's book. I'd tell them to come down when they needed to and give them 15 second cues so they would know where they were.
But these days I've started bringing it down to 1 or 2 minutes or even less, because one student said he had some pain afterwards. Even some of my more advanced students are a bit competitive, despite the fact that they know better.
My current teacher has been threatening to make us hold handstands longer (up to 5 minutes), but so far we've only gotten up to 30 seconds. A lot of new people have joined the advanced class and she has to teach them from scratch, because almost no one comes in knowing handstand or elbow stand, no matter how advanced they are. Inversions just aren't taught that much in gyms.
As to the Iyengars and inversions...
From what I understand, much of what the Iyengars know is from "experiential" research. One biography of BKS Iyengar said that he used his own body as a laboratory. This was necessary because he was separated from his teacher and sent to teach fairly early in his studies by the standards of that day.
They have much more experience than I do by about 60 years, so I wouldn't expect you to take my word over theirs.
I really don't know why this doesn't ring true to me, but it didn't ring true even before I knew there was a controversy. I followed it for a long time, but shoulderstand helps me avoid stiffness in my neck and so at first I just decided that the advantages outweighed the risks. But my period actually gets better when I practice inversions, so I did some research and found other people didn't agree with that particular rule.
At some point BKS Iyengar had to trust his own intuition and that of his students to develop his highly detailed system. On this point I trust my own intuition and my own sense of body awareness.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I keep them there (Shoulder/headstand) until they lose their concentration (@#$%, I'm such a bad speller! Why don't forums have spell check?)
Mishy | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Mish - I have asked that question myself many a time. Spell check for forums please, web gods!
Ladies - I am not trying to be argumentative. Goodness knows, I am the very soul of tact and decorum I am simply pointing out what the most authoritative living voice of yoga has said about this issue. And there really is nobody who is comparable in knowledge except perhaps Patabhi Jois, and he has not had the advantage of teaching side by side with a woman for the past 50 or so years (as far as I know...) who has a phenomenal and profound intellect as well. And this does not even include the influence of Mrs. Iyengar, who was also a practitioner as well as mother and advisor and the other 3 or 4 daughters.
Now, that having been said, I must tell you that I have had my own doubts about this and plenty o' troubles in that department that I used to "self medicate" with inversions as well. I used to spend 30 - 40 minutes at a time in halasana as a young teen (on a bare floor, no less  ) because it helped so much. And when I came back to yoga I was surprised at the "rules" and quite prepared to be rebellious and do what felt good. I also have headaches that are mitigated by keeping my neck soft with halasana and it really, really bugged me that I couldn't do some of the poses that don't even look like inversions but Geeta says are no-no's. But my teachers helped me both by their own experiences and with knowledge they gained in trips to Pune to understand that the Iyengars have not just made this stuff up out of their heads to p*ss us off. There is a system and it works really well if we delve into it and use it. I now use viparita dandasana to keep my neck soft during that week of the month and work inversions intensely before and after my period, which is wonderful. Heaven knows, this won't be happening forever. I hope.....
And I have to admit I don't always do as my advisors tell me to. I am not supposed to drink coffee but until my doctors can find me something that tastes that good and starts my morning soooo delightfully, I am not giving up my one cup in the morning. So I understand that some things are just so compelling we are not willing to give them up. It does come down to personal choice. OTOH, I do understand that my precious one cup of coffee is probably not doing me any good in the long run and there may be a day when I will regret it. Only time will tell. I have said here before that 20 or 30 years from now they will have to do some serious studies on female yogis and see what actually happened.
Oh - my Level I students hold full shoulderstand for 30 sec. to one minute and then work up from there to 5 minutes minimum for a longer term practitioner. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Well, let me totally intrude here. I've certainly heard a lot about what Geeta
and others say on this subject, and since Geeta has had personal experience
with the matter, and lots of students to work with, her opinion can't be discounted.
On the other hand, I've never heard any terribly believable explanation for avoiding
inversions other than the obvious role of gravity. So, I would tend to think that
one *should* consider how one feels or is affected by the practice. If it has negative
effects, then avoid it. If not, then do it and see whether any negative effect appears.
Since there are NO medical studies to show actual problems arising as a result of
practicing inversions, the basis for avoiding them is simply experiential.
Ms. Bay Guy once told me that this proscription was a lot like other medeival
rules that barred women from doing this or that because they were somehow
unclean. Of course, she's not yogi.
... bg
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| i'm going to come at this authority issue from another perspective--outside of yoga asanas--altogether.
i agree that we should both listen to and honor our heritage and the experience of those who have come before us. not only is the iyengar family resting on their experiences with their own bodies and those of their thousands of students, but they're also relying on a long-standing tradition (and traditional perspective) regarding women's bodies. This may be a lot of fact combined with a lot of ideas that are flawed based on cultural perspectives, rather than 'universal realities' or 'truths.' it does point to that idea of human fallability.
On the flip side of this, yoga teaches us to find the inner teacher. this is also a long-standing part of the tradition, handed down to us from those self-same yogins mentioned above. And, it is true that many yogins did not or do not have regular teachers, or daily access to teachers to ask for broad explainations of various aspects of an asana or esoterica. Ultimately, they had to rely on their own experience and intellect (as well as their understanding and education from tradition) to arrive at a certain idea of what they think is generally most appropriate. So, at a certain level, there's this other side.
Now, my personality type--using the Enniegram system--is the 6. the type six has a problem with authority. the type six also wants an authority--and therefore is often in conflict with authority. Wants an authority, but that authority has to be absolutely trustworthy. But, what 6s learn is that most authorities aren't trustworthy, because all authorities hae their own 'things' that color their perspectives of whatever it is they're an authority on. This doesn't mean that the authority should be tossed like a baby out of the bathwater, but rather through this experience the 6 developes the ability to become his/her OWN authority on a matter--trusting their interior spirit and self beyond the teachings of another. It really sticks to that buddhist idea of 'don't just believe it because I say it, or someone else says it, or some scripture says it, but because you know, from your own experience, that it's true."
Often, it's a combination of these elements that determines what is true or right in this circumstance. Without the scripture or authority figure pointing the direction, the student would never look in that direction for that sort of answer. Just as tourist says regarding her years prior to having a teacher--no one said 'no' and therefor eit wasn't a concern. once someone did say 'no' then it became a concern, a place of seeking--and then, her experience follows this advice. I do not know that this is always the case for myself--sometimes it definately is.
I have been learning to become my own authority on any number of matters, but i strongly look to the tradition, to scientific evidences from east and west, as well as many other external places for information on any number of topics that concern (or even don't concern) me. I take that information into great consideration, and ultimately i experiment with it on my own. And then, i make a decision as to what I think is best.
I think that this is no different than what Iyengar did. We know that krishnamycharya had a number of students--and each of those students went in very different directions, even though they had the same central authority. Why? well, becaues they took the information from that authority, and then experimented with it, and then came to these results--iyengar, jois, etc. The results are different because each of these students experimented on their own, and from this, had their perspective and experience of that information--and became their own authorities.
I think that it's no different for any other yoga student. If we're to follow the teachers, then at a certain point, we're to FOLLOW the teachers--meaning doing what they did. They experimented. They thought for themselves. They challenged the information from the tradition--and accepted what worked, and discovered new things, and cast off what didn't. No different for any yoga student--that's part of doing yoga.
So, i like to present the debate. Let the student experiment and decide.
as to the question of how long to hold shoulder stand--1-3 minutes, on average, then moving into plow for the same amount of time. | |
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| I didn't mean to imply you were being argumentative tourist. I completely understand your position. To be sure, there are many things we don't completely understand that are absolutely true, even in western medicine.
I had two doctors tell me to take a certain medicine for headaches that wasn't headache medicine and nobody knew why it worked.
You are also correct in saying that not everything is good just because we feel good when we do it. I'll try viparita dandasana, but I can't say I'm convinced.
Everyone, here is an interesting page put together by an Iyengar teacher. It has links to the article Kym posted and some articles by Geeta Iyengar. The information is more compelling than some of the other things I've read.
http://ynottony.com/menstruation.htm | |
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| There are many other authoritative practitioners out there besides Iyengar. I do not teach Iyengar influence at all (unless I do and don't know). All I am saying is that is one persons opinion, and of all the other authorities I have studied none seem to think its a big deal. Iyengar is your way because that's what you teach and you study - and that is fine... but Iyengar isn't the ONLY way... that's all I'm saying. That family isn't the be all and end all of yoga, and perhaps the age of the information can also prove to be just as damaging as good. How would they really know the goods and bads of it if they teach not to do it - chances are they really have no experience in doing it - they are passing along information that is quite old.
I am not trying to be argumentative either, but my point that it comes across as how my family seaks of christianity - that it is the only way and any other way is wrong... why? Because they said so!
and yes - spell check would be nice! ;) | |
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| The Sivananda tradition also counsels against inversions during menses. My tutor has discussed this at length and gives both the traditional arguments and current western teaching according to research. He also always gets us to practise inversions in pairs so no-one does them unsupported. His reasoning, he freely admits, is protection against law suits in the west as well as concern for his students. He does however, also mention that when he studied in India, most women did inversions throughout their menses and even into advanced stages of pregnancy without apparent mishap.
I also practise Iyengar but I'll not add more as their are others here that know that tradition's views better.
Personally, I doubt the validity of many of the biomechanical explantions given as simply lying down would also create a degree of retrograde flow. Thus I follow a body awareness approach myself and only invert if my energy levels are high and I don't feel in the least light-headed or faint. Mind you, I admit that my practise is not sufficiently advanced in respect to inversions for me to be doing them that often anyway (apart from the variations on 'legs up the wall').
Fee
Edited by Orbilia 2006-02-27 8:54 AM
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| TOURIST,
I like what you said a couple of posts back that we do or participate in things that feel good but aren't necessarily good for us.
I figure, if yoga is powerful enough to feel so good then it must be powerful enough to have some contraindications at times.
I know that the Chinese (here we go again, you're thinking ) think it's "bad" to go outside with wet hair b/c you'll end up with a stiff neck. They think it's really bad for a woman to have sex while she's having her period. They think it's awful to drink iced drinks. We know we're not going to drop dead from doing these things but over time, oh, say 20 years, the little stuff can accumulate into a big, bad thing (maybe).
I've decided to pay attention to what the elders say.
P.S. My old and wise Chinese doctor counsels against wearing tampons - ever. He says it makes the blood stagnate and creates toxicity. By the way, we recently discussed the topic of bad skin on another thread and I wrote that I went to an acupuncturist to alleviate imy really bad case of acne. This is when and why he told me to stop wearing tampons b/c it was encouraging toxins to back-up in my system and my skin was trying to purge the impurities. Plus, my diet was disgusting at the time. sorry, long post and off topic. 3 sun sals as restitution | |
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| i'm mortified by the concept of 'because i say so' or 'because so-and-so says so' practices and behavoiral modifications. to me, it smacks of fascism, and if the authority is untrustworthy (and many are--though not intentionally), then you're going to have a problem eventually.
so, i'm for honoring tradition, experimenting with it, and coming to one's own conclusion. this doesn't toss out tradition or the elders--or discount their wisdom, knowledge, and contributions--but it also doesn't stifle individual development and creativity either--the development of my own wisdom, knowledge, and contributions. it's how yoga (or any wisdom tradition really) is a living tradition. if we stick too close to the rules--whatever they are--then eventually it won't function for us and the thing will pass away. But if the rules can be applied in a number of contexts, in different ways, or avoided when the facts simply do not add up--or even amended--then it will grow, learn from itself, and continue on because of the new insights and traditions of those who follow--based on the wisdom and traditions of those who came before.
needs to be both. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| No, the Iyengars are not the be all and end all of yoga, however (and I say this feeling that most highly advanced yoga teachers would agree with me) comparing pretty much anyone with BKS Iyengar is a bit like comparing your high school science teacher with Stephen Hawking. A Perfect being? No. Is there debate in scientific circles about his theories being 100% right? For sure. But still acknowledged as pretty much the world authority on his subject. And if you learned yoga in the past 20 years, you have been influenced by his teaching.
There is so much more going on in a pose than the physics, as we know, and I believe the idea of retrograde flow is really not the biggest issue. The effects on the energetic body and the koshas are things I don't fully understand yet and I know one of Geeta's big things is the quiet in the abdomen, which is very hard to achieve in inversions, if we are doing them well and maybe a bit more difficult if we are not doing them well. And remember, their attitude has changed over the years as they have seen more students and had more experience. In Light on Yoga, it says "do not practice asana if menstruating" and now we have all sorts of specialised practices to do during menstruation. And even the Iyengars only started being strict about this in the 80's. This is very new territory and we are all part of a very big experiment. It is like the old (and maybe not so old) medical studies where they just studied men and figured it was the same for women. Yoga has been a male discipline and women have really only been involved for a micro-second compared to how long men have been practicing. We are on the cutting edge here so maybe we need one big group who does not invert and the control group who does to see what happens.
Fifi - I sometimes think about making stuff like that up and seeing if people will follow it: Never eat cheese at breakfast. My uncle's brother's step sister ate cheese at breakfast for 30 years and in the end, that's what killed her  | |
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| Zoebird,
You have the right to feel mortified.
I never thought of my sweet, old Chinese doctor (think Yoda) as fascist. He helped me and his advice worked. Conversely, doing something over and over again that doesn't work is insane.
I'm not trying to pick on you, Zoebird. In fact, your input on these threads is always interesting and well thought out but I feel the word "fascist" is incendary. Feeling mortified is pretty heavy, too, in context of what we're discussing.
My Chinese doctor, while compassionate, probably doesn't really care if I take his advice or not.
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| often, the elder isnt' fascist. but a follower or student can be.
beond political associations, fascism refers to a desire to be lead. if an individual holds a desire to be lead, without the responsibility of self examination (experimentation), then this is fascism. typically, it's not the leader or elder that is fascist, but the student if s/he doesn't experiment.
i think that both you and tourist have espoused an unquestioning, unwaivering approach to the advice of 'the elders' regardless of who those elders are or why that advice exists. i think that what the elders say may be true, but it may also not be true. it may be true for some, but not for others. It may be true in part, but also false in part. And only my own experimentation makes it possible to determine what is correct. but without this responsibility, without this undertaking, the student is being lead, playing fascist--whether or not that's the teacher's intent. in fact, i doubt it is the teacher's intent at all.
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| zoebird - 2006-02-27 2:04 PM
i think that what the elders say may be true, but it may also not be true. it may be true for some, but not for others. It may be true in part, but also false in part. And only my own experimentation makes it possible to determine what is correct. but without this responsibility, without this undertaking, the student is being lead, playing fascist--whether or not that's the teacher's intent. in fact, i doubt it is the teacher's intent at all.
Thanks zoebird... you said exactly what I was thinking/trying to say in my previous posts. | |
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| I do not for a minute think you believe in the crap you just wrote. It's not like you to be crazy, Zoebird. I'm not even offended because I don't think you wrote it. You must have been possessed for those 5 minutes.
I'm just passing on advice from an esteemed professional.
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| fifi:
i have no problem with the advice that you are passing along in and of itself. i present this same information to my own students. but, i do have a problem with the idea that because something comes from an authority of some sort, it should be followed without question or without one's own experimentation and thought on the matter.
it is one thing to do something over and over that doesn't work. obviously, as you stated before, you're not advocating that. But what is it to avoid something, never knowing whether or not it's appropriate to avoid it, simply because an authority figure said that it could be, or is traditionally, problematic?
my grandmother is a smart, vibrant, educated, interesting 'elder.' she advises that i never lift heavy objects (such as luggage) because my uterus will fall out and i won't be able to have babies. Well, a lot of things say that this isn't true--but a lot of grandmother's believe it. Should i listen to my elder? or should i do research and experience on my own?
even a chinese doctor or a yoga teacher can be passing on an 'old wives tale' and sometimes an old wives tale is absolutely correct. And sometimes it isn't. But avoidance per se won't teach me this--only experimenting on my own (or thinking on my own) will. | |
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| Is it at all possible that Geeta and her daughters have a hereditary propensity to have "issues" with the uterus? Maybe they have inverted uteruses, or exceptionally heavy periods, etc. So, if she read that inversions were not right for women, then she and several people she knew had problems, wouldn't she become passionate about it-trying to help? Just a thought. I have no medical background.
Edited by Kym 2006-02-27 4:00 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Maybe I'm opening myself for critisism here but I have a problem with looking up to anyone and following their words as if that is the holy grail.
Always had a problem with teachers, bosses, husband , etc..... I believe we are all created equal. I respect certain individuals more than others. I look up to certain people, but to put them on a pedestal, no way!!!! It's the rebel in me.
I don't like any person, swami, guru, or mentor to tell me their law (anyone for that matter). I like to take it all in and then decide what works realistically in my life and in society (and the people I deal with).
I like to think of people as penny givers and penny takers. There are people that take pennies out of your pocket ( energy vacuums) and then there are some who enrich your life by contributing (adding pennies)
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| Well,
Nobody is recommending you all to stick your finger in a blender to see what that feels like.
Kym had an initial question regarding periods and inversions, not whether to join a cult.
No one is forcing anyone to listen to 5,000 years of wisdom. Although I get bummed out when my patients stubbornly neglect my benign advice, as a healthcare professional, it is financially better for me when people insist on learning the hard way. It's their choice to come in for 8 treatments instead of 4.
(Sometimes I wonder if the AMA doesn't have a bunch of stock in McDonald's and Burger King in order to supply lifelong patients)
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I didn't mean to be extreme in my view. If anything, this is definitely one of my vices. I wish I could break it.
But as I stated earlier, I think following your inner voice is logical.
Mishy | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Hmmmm - I see that my haste in writing here (since I read posts from the top down, I am often scrambling by the time I get here!) has led to a little lack of clarity, although I did try to clear that a bit in the last post by saying I do question authority figures and even ignore them from time to time. And I don't anyone want to think I am a slavish follower of anything - being somewhat of what my friends and I used to call an "anti-clockwise" sort Come to think of it, many of us here would describe ourselves as non-mainstream - but I digress.
Here's the deal. Most of us who practiced in the 60's and 70's (yes, new folk, I am that old...) assumed the ancient advice was patriarchal crap (written by what was known in the parlance of the day as "male chauvanist pigs"...) and completely ignored it. This includes Iyengar students, who were not given the strong sanctions until the early 80's, I believe. But by that time the clarity and truth of what was being taught was shown time and again, over a long period of time, to be true. I do believe that some of it may be based on Geeta's and her sister's experiences, however, I believe her sisters and nieces have all been healthy in this respect. I do not believe that someone with her background and intelligence would try to influence thousands of students simply because she herself had problems. That seems a tad selfish, at best.
I questioned this as well. I liked being upside down to relieve cramps. I have friends whose only days of the month they feel energetic enough to do hard workings and jumpings are during their periods. And so what if it is Ayurvedic teaching? I don't follow Ayurveda so perhaps it is not so important for me? The answers I got from my teachers were very much what I have given you here. They have seen and worked with the Iyengars over many years. One teacher has gone every few years since 1979 (now annually) and worked very closely with the whole family. They tell us that, when you see how the system works over time, how they are right time after time after time, literally curing people of serious conditions, you take a few things on faith even if you don't fully understand them. Reading Light on Life has reminded me again of how much farther these people are along the path than we are - how the knowledge they are giving is so much more than how to align downward dog so your wrists don't hurt. If someone with that much knowledge is telling me this is good for me, I will try to work with it the best I can. | |
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| A wise man (might have been Bill Gates) once said, "only take the advice of those who are doing better than you." I think those are fine words to live by. For instance, I worked with a guy who had a son who was a total loser--lazy, drugs, lying, etc. And he used to try to give me advice on raising my daughter--"No thanks pal"! Just extrapolate that into any other aspect of life. Speaking of living examples, I stumbled across Eric Shiffman's Web page today--now there's a guy of whom I've heard some good things about yoga-wise--then I see this way overweight dude and I think--"woo HOO, don't care what he's got to say." | |
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| *Fifi*
(Sometimes I wonder if the AMA doesn't have a bunch of stock in McDonald's and Burger King in order to supply lifelong patients)
I kid you not...my husband has stock in Philip Morris. Normally I don't care where he puts his money, but even I opened my mouth over that purchase.
Edited by Kabu 2006-02-27 7:44 PM
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| >JB - she advises that i never lift heavy objects (such as luggage) because my uterus will fall out and i won't be able to have babies.
That just made me flash back to my childhood. When I was very young, my mom use to make us clamp a curst of bread between our teeth when ever she sawed a button on a piece of clothing we were wearing. When I asked why she made us do that, she said her mother always told them do it. I assumed it was a custom from the ‘old country’. Can’t remember what was supposed to happen if we didn’t do it, but it seemed pretty dire.
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| I feel a little like I have a split personality going here because I agree with all of you of some points.
I can completely see Tourist's point about the Iyengars. They have proven themselves. And I admire her faith in their advice.
There are, however, some reasons why the Iyengars or other teachers could be absolutely correct under certain circumstances and not correct in others. Because so much yoga information comes to use through tradition and without the advantage of context it is hard to always know when advice is best for the individual.
For example: A friend of mine was really into Ayurveda. He always drank hot water and milk, because Ayurveda said to boil the water and milk before drinking it. Now I can think of very good reasons to always boil water before drinking it in India 1,000 years ago or even 100 years ago. But in today's world I'm not sure that advice still applies.
This is not a black and white kind of discussion.
As to Bruce's contention that you should only listen to the person doing better than you, I disagree. Pain and failure can be a pretty good teacher, perhaps a better teacher than success at times.
Your friend may know exactly what "not" to do in raising a child.
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: New York | Bruce - 2006-02-27 6:57 PM
Speaking of living examples, I stumbled across Eric Shiffman's Web page today--now there's a guy of whom I've heard some good things about yoga-wise--then I see this way overweight dude and I think--"woo HOO, don't care what he's got to say."
He's actually not THAT overweight- his face is way chunkier than his body (in pictures he always looks like he has about 10 chins). He's a BIG guy too- not just chunky but big. You should give him another chance, Bruce, because he's got some great things to say. I did a TT with him and he's got a great practice- very graceful and flexible for someone so big. | |
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| Ah Julie, I have a hard enough time with all things yogic as it is--it's a constant struggle for me as my ole "leave it to Beaver" childhood and military background permeates my soul. And I'm shallow too but since you vouch for ole Eric, I'll revisit and try to take the high road. However, as I'm taching my first yoga class today at a local university, I'm going on a starvation diet--don't want to give the kids the impression I'm Eric. | |
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| A womans body is on a continuous monthly cycle - it's not butterflies and roses till we start our period. Our horomones are constantly changing throughout the entire month... thus our bodies are continually cleansing themselves - not only when we have our periods, so really then we should never do inversions.
... that is going to the extreme - obviously... but trying to proove a point... perhaps not well, but I haven't finished my morning coffee yet ;)
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sometimes its just a bad photo. i don't always do so well in front of a camera either. Here's a nice pic of erich looking strong & flexible.
www.movingintostillness.com/graphics%20photoshop%20files/2005_monteagle_lotus/image17.html
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| Thanks Natasha. I'm sure he's a good man and a hellofa yogi but geeze, he looks like Arlo Gutherie crashed into W.C. Fields and the result was poor Erich. I don't think I could be in his workshop and not laugh. | |
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awwww! he's not so funny looking! now, me. I'm funny looking  people are always surprised to meet a cat who can smile so pretty.
as far as the previous discussion goes, I thinkit's interesting to think about the fact that most "wisdom" comes out of the context of social mores. I wonder what the larger indian culture that the Iyengars are imbedded in has to say about women and their menstruation. Do women of Geeta's generation and place teach each other to be less active in general when they have their periods, or is it an asana only thing?
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| >Bruce – he looks like Arlo
I was going to get all serious on you and tell you not to judge yogies by their bodies and go into how BKS simply looks like an 85 year old Indian chap on the surface of it, but when I looked at Eric, I kind of cracked up also, he does look strangely a lot like Arlo.
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| Sirensong,
You do have a nice smile. 
I don't think it's simply Indian culture because it's also Chinese culture/wisdom. Perhaps it's ancient culture or more specifically, ancient Asian culture & wisdom. This arguement is just like the vegetarian arguement; everyone has their opinions and they're sticking to them.
As far as Chinese medicinal wisdom goes, a person's energy is not limitless (sorry, Louise Hay) and they've figured out ways to conserve one's energy and encourage the flow of healthy energy.
It's true, peristalsis (movement of food down the tubes) will still continue when you're upside-down but it just adds stress to the body to eat and hang upside-down.
I think it's the little stresses in life that add up to future aggravation. I figure I haven't lived very healthy the first 20 years of my life so I'm going to do as much as I can to try to stave off future health problems.
Not that anyone asked but one of the reasons Chinese medicine is so great (IMHO) is that it didn't forget women. The royal acupuncturists had to be good in gynecology b/c the Emperors had tons of wives and concubines.
Chinese medicine (and probably Ayervedic medicine, judging from Neel's posts) encourages people to rest, which shouldn't be confused with the idea that you're weak. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| sirensong2 - 2006-02-28 9:34 AM
I wonder what the larger indian culture that the Iyengars are imbedded in has to say about women and their menstruation. Do women of Geeta's generation and place teach each other to be less active in general when they have their periods, or is it an asana only thing?
That is one of the things I have asked about and I think the answer is pretty much what it would be here: that is a great idea in theory but in practice, not a snowball's chance in h#ll it's gonna actually happen! In India they seem to have embraced modernity and still keep many more of the old traditions than we have. Hence, the woman's position is even more stressful and active in many ways. | |
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Location: Upstate NY | Bruce - 2006-02-27 6:57 PM
A wise man (might have been Bill Gates) once said, "only take the advice of those who are doing better than you." I think those are fine words to live by. For instance, I worked with a guy who had a son who was a total loser--lazy, drugs, lying, etc. And he used to try to give me advice on raising my daughter--"No thanks pal"! Just extrapolate that into any other aspect of life. Speaking of living examples, I stumbled across Eric Shiffman's Web page today--now there's a guy of whom I've heard some good things about yoga-wise--then I see this way overweight dude and I think--"woo HOO, don't care what he's got to say."
Thats what I love about yoga, is that it is for everyone 
Bought the book and cherish it. Another great addition to the library. Guy isn't obese at all in the book.................. you can get it cheap on amazon, it would be worth the money Bruce.
Om Shanti,
Ravi | |
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| having gotten through the end of page two until the end of page four, i think that this is about valuing subjective elements to make logical inferences. it's based on certain assumptions, and many of us have valued things differently. And then, depending upon how we value these elements, determined how to behave.
fifi and tourist have valued chinese medicine and iyengar et al opinions on the matter higher than western medical information; a few have taken on western medical information higher than chinese medicine and iyengar et al opinions; and then a couple of us have talked about valuing our own experience over either of these two (eastern or western) ideologies.
One of the things that i find rather disturbing is the concept that someone is 'better' than i am. i think that my high school science teacher (who was a brilliant physicist) was as good as steven hawkings. she wasn't as famous--but she was a brilliant scientist and a brilliant person (she did do research; she prefered to teach in high school--the high school that she attended). i think that many of my yoga teachers--some iyengar trained and some not--are as brilliant as the iyengars, but not as famous. They have their experiments, their ideas and opinions as well. I tend to value them 'in light of' the tradition (which comes through iyengar or whatever).
one of the points that i think some might be missing is the fact that the iyengars themselves are continuing with experiments. they, themselves, are experimenting. my teacher, dharma mittra, gave this great little talk about becoming your guru. he said that when he worked with his guru (as an assistant, doing all sorts of daily tasks for him), he watched everything that the guru did. If the guru smiled during meditation, he did--and so on. the guru questioned him about it--and said "good, good" because the only way to become a guru is to be like a guru.
i take this in similar directions. Not only do i follow dharma's advice on the little things, but also on the big things. If the guru is experimenting--then i too should be experimenting. This is how i will learn--and i'm following the guru. The guru learns--builds on his/her guru's information--through steady practice and experimentation.
Also, if the advice is in the 'not-doing' how does one experiment with it? Do the iyengars ever let someone do inversions and then see what the situation is from that? in order to experiment with it, you have to do it during a certain time, so that you can understand hwo it works and how it doesn't work.
And the issue of the whole cycle is also important. the fertile phase, the luteal phase, the menstrual phase, the estres phase--each of these has different bodily and hormonal elements in play. i find that my food choices throughout the month can greatly affect the outcome of a given cycle--as can movement and many other factors. I experiment with my entire chart (as ya'll know i'm into fertility awareness method of charting my cycle). I experiment with food, with rest, with asana, with other forms of exercise or movement.
I do this because i was taught to do this. I value my own experience above all other experience, but i do value the advice, input, and other elements that inform the experiment and experience. I also recognize that my experience cannot necessarily be extrapolated out to apply to everyone--which is why i present the other information. I present what i know: this is the tradition; this is the western/medical; this is my own experiences--ultimately decide for yourself what is right.
i notice that the iyengars are doing this--so why can't i?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Some good points, ZB. Yes, we are all encouraged to explore and experience for ourselves the effects of our practice. This holds true in any science or art. Students are enoucraged to take the master's work and go beyond and/or prove what has been found to be true in the past.
Also, if the advice is in the 'not-doing' how does one experiment with it? Do the iyengars ever let someone do inversions and then see what the situation is from that? in order to experiment with it, you have to do it during a certain time, so that you can understand hwo it works and how it doesn't work.
Of course, they had all those years when there was not an emphasis on non-inverting - basically through the 70's and mid 80's. As I said, this generation of yogis will be a good test case, if anyone studies it in the next 10 - 20 years.
It does come down tot personal choice and there are many reasons why anyone would chose one or the other. Personally, I have had enough problems with menstrual issues and don't want any more, and would not want to feel I had intentionally done something that might make it worse. And since I am at that "certain age" things are not so predictable anymore and I can't be certain that anything I try has had a direct causal effect or if it is Mother Nature giving me a little adjustment, so my experimental studies would not be too reliable | |
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| Bruce:
I'll second the recommendation of Erich Schiffman's book. His approach is very much a combination of asana and meditation. He has a very clear way of discussing difficult concepts (as an example, he likens the relationship/one-ness of atman and brahman as that of a wave in the ocean - an individualized expression of the whole). If you're interested in meditation as an extension of your asana practice, Schiffman provides some nice direction.
Plus, watching Schiffman makes me feel better about my own chubbiness as opposed to my skinny shala-mates!
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | tourist - 2006-02-25 9:38 PM
Sorry I don't have time to do a full reply to this but I must say that Path to Holistic Health refers ONLY to doing inversions before and especially right after menstruation. I realise this is not exactly clear in the book and there are some places where the editing is plain wrong. Somewhere in that book it says to use a yoga strap 2 feet long So there are errors.
This is also how I've been taught and my experience with this. In 1989 I had endometriosis. Since doing the Bikram/Hot Yoga practice, it has helped tremendously, in so many areas. BUT, only during the off times do I see any benefit from my Asana practice, not during. I think everyone should listen to their bodies. I also feel that it is the responsibility of the teacher to educate their students and/or make an allowance for persons like myself - that isn't fair to the student. It also isn't fair since this is mentioned in so many of my Yoga manuals and from instructions that I've received. This is where the line gets crossed of mis-information. I'm glad I have the option of setting out rather than forcing myself to do a practice that I am not comfortable with. | |
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| Cyndi,
The owner of the Bikram studio that I like in my town had endo, too, which was resolved after praciticing Bikram. She was an immediate convert and decided to go through the teacher training and open her own Bikram studio.
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| what is it about bikram that does this? do you think it's the sequence, the heat, the combination of sequencing and other factors?
i'm just curious as to what your ideas about it were/are. | |
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| Probably just the yoga. One of the local yoginis had exzcema until she started doing it 6 days a week. Now she's got the nicest complextion you've ever seen. | |
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| well, i don't know what 'just the yoga' means.
there are lots of people with endo who practice yoga (various styles), and yet i've never seen anyone say that they feel completely 'cured' from the process--except these two claims regarding bikram. so, i'm wondering what might be particular about bikram that makes this happen.
and if so, then i'll suggest bikram to those clients and friends who have endo and would like to be relieved of it. | |
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| zoebird - 2006-03-02 12:15 PM
well, i don't know what 'just the yoga' means.
Sorry, it's a bit vague, and I didn't fully process your original post. I'm thinking that it's not the heat, since the local studio isn't a hot one. OTOH, I was thinking that endo was a completely different disease. So please ignore the previous post I'm just ranting at random now.
Anyway, that pretty much leaves the asanas, and perhaps the sequence. | |
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| I think its the heat and and the scrunching down in Bikram. I PM'd Cyndi this morning about her thoughts and I haven't checked my inbox but I know she responded (I didn't want to hijack the thread). Anyway, I find that with Bikram, lots of the poses squeeze the body. It's like an abdominal massage. I find my elbows and knees and even my abdominal muscles are pressing on parts of my torso, sometimes pressing hard (knees and elbows). I guess that would make it more like acupressure. Plus, the buckets of sweat one produces during a 90 minute Bikram certainly changes our chemistry set.
Would love to write more but I gotta run! | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I like this definition of Dead: No Movement, heehee,
All internal organs need to be massaged and/or moved... I definitely get all my internal organs massaged in a day's worth of Bikram/Hot Yoga.
OT - I really do not understand why you guys say the term "Hijacking the thread", that really doesn't make sense to me...because all of what we discuss here is related to the subject thread, it interwines eventually, really it does, so therefore, we should discuss...at least that is how I see it..am I wrong?? hmm, maybe even this inquiry could be considered hi-jacking?? | |
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| Cyndi - 2006-03-03 9:06 AM
OT - I really do not understand why you guys say the term "Hijacking the thread", that really doesn't make sense to me...because all of what we discuss here is related to the subject thread, it interwines eventually, really it does, so therefore, we should discuss...at least that is how I see it..am I wrong?? hmm, maybe even this inquiry could be considered hi-jacking??
Well, I think about it like a good conversation. I have some "odd" thought patterns so I have a tendency to inject things that are outside the flow of the conversation. They make sense to me, but other people might find them disruptive.
Hijacking a thread can be similar. While the thread will change over time, it should be a slow change, not a change like changing the subject. If the subject needs to be changed, then it's probably time to start a new thread.
To some degree your inquiry is a potential hijack because it's on a different subject, and has the potential to take the thread completely away from the original subject. Whether this is a good thing or not is another question. Sometimes it makes sense to start another thread, sometimes to post something in the original thread. As you pointed out converstations change over time, and often diverge naturally from the original subject. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I like natural divergences...not controlled ones....it makes a better and more interesting conversation, IMO. Okay, back to the subject at hand,
OTOH, I think men usually have more of a problem with this than women do. Whenever 2 or more women are gathered, the topics seem to just bounce around. Women can multi task conversations well, men seem to get lost and disfunctional in this process for some reason, must be that venus and mars stuff, huh??
Edited by Cyndi 2006-03-03 10:48 AM
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| so, to be clear, the idea that both of you are putting forth is that during the bikram practice, there is a great deal of abdominal massage-like or acupressure-like movements that help 'realign' the space (perhaps physically, perhaps energeticly), that then relieves endo.
i'm definately going to try this out. i'll take more than a few bikram classes soon and also do some experimentation at home. I don't have endo, but i should feel the same abdominal massage/acupressure stuff as anyone else, and then perhaps i can apply that in my teaching for those students who have endo.
thanks for your thoughts. if you have more ideas, i'd love to hear them. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Zoebird,
You don't have to go to a Bikram class to get the "Bikram" benefit, just do the 26 postures, in order, TWICE each time and you'll be there. Don't worry about the heat factor, I do use a heater to 85 - 90 degrees, but I really don't think that matters, it's the sequence that I think is more important. Heat for me is because I barely wear any clothes and need that to stay warm. | |
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| cyndi:
thanks for the input. i know, though, that the alignment is different than the krishnamacharya lineage, so i'll get some instruction on it--i think that's the main reason for taking a few classes (ten class punch cards tend to be affordable). I want to make sure i'm getting the alignment right--i assume that makes a difference too!
i'll be sure to practice both with and without heat.
now, just for clarity, should i do the practice twice--one after the other--before going into savasana? is that what you meant? do the 26, then do them again, and that's the end of practice? | |
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Location: Upstate NY | repeat the asana twice then do the next twice and so on...... | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Zoebird,
Okay, go to a Bikram class (I thought you said you took Bikram once before??) learn the order of sequences, although, it shouldn't be that hard to do, go to this web site below, the asana's are listed in order. Do each asana twice before going to the next...don't do the 26 postures and then 26 again, No. Each asana is performed twice as you move along.
http://www.bikram-yoga-noosa-australia.com/Postures/Postureindex.htm | |
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| cyndi:
i have taken bikram classes before--it was a couple of years ago though. i know the sequence (i keep a copy of it on-hand), but i believe that it comes from a different school of alignment--which i think would be an important element. there are three distinctive elements that i think would be important here: sequence, alignment, and environmental conditions. the first one is easy, but the second two can be difficult to consider without some instruction. i might just go and pick the brains of a teacher near-by. that might be enough to get the alignment, and i can always test out the heat-scenario later.
but, there are other forms of heated yoga, where women dont' talk about endo decreasing or stopping, so maybe i can 'discount' the heat situation altogether. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Back to the menstural practices - as I was practicing yesterday I was reading Gem for Women and thinking about the power and strength of women and their cycles. I wonder if we haven't been victims of previous generations attitudes ranging from absolute hysteria (literally) to the "modern" notion of "women can do anything any time and to h#ll with taking care of ourselves in a different way during menstruation, pregnancy, new motherhood etc." I think the post war generation of women was so keen to prove that things "could" be done that they pushed the idea on us that it "should" be done. Yes, you can perform feats of strength and endurance while menstruating, but given the choice, is it the best thing for you to do? I mean, you can save your family of four plus all the cats and photos from a burning building in the middle of the night, too. But what toll does it take on your body and psyche? Would you be able to do that task in mid day with a clear head and awake body and do it better, with less residual effects? Obviously I exaggerate for effect, but do you get my drift here?
I think we need to consider this and ponder the notion that perhaps specialised practices might be looked at as a way of building and storing feminine power rather than a way of recouping energy that is being taken from us. We have the power to create life - omnipotent in a way - and this cycle we have chosen not to create life. We are clearing the decks and preparing to create life again constantly. Imagine a sci-fi story like that (we can get our creative types to write this - another money maker?). | |
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| i think that striving to look at the situation from very different perspectives is important, but it still doesn't answer the question of inversions and whether or not they're physically or energeticly 'ok' for menstrual practices at a practical level.
i agree that practice during menstruation--well practice at any time--should take great heed and care of the body's intuitive/intuitable needs. I've noticed that my practice changes throughout my cycle, and throughout larger cycles as well. I learned that the moon has an 18.5 year cycle (from highest rise to lowest rise on the horizon), and i'd like to look at that process as well--assuming i have the time to do so; it takes a lot of research understanding this 18.5 yr cycle.
anyway, i agree that there is probably an overemphasis on proving our ability, largely because it is this very aspect of womanhood that has been used for centuries to determine or describe or give evidence of women's lack of physical strength, power, ability, intellect, spiritual ability, spiritual purity, emotional stability, and a myriad of other factors. So of course, there's a strong reactionary aspect to this--a strong sense of not wanting to give something up because someone said so (man or woman) with the potential of giving into a sense of cultural weakness which can then be drawn into other non-associated attributes assigned to women in general and individually.
i often wonder if the woman's wound in this is not unlike the slavery wound of so many slaves throughout the world. to be seen as less intellegent, less spiritual, less strong, less capable, etc, simply because of the color of skin, location of village, or in the case of women--sex and the socially constructed gender.
in any case, the concept for The Red Tent (book) comes to mind. The original purpose of the Red Tent was for women to go away from the community for a few days to rest, renew, and be amoung women while menstruating. This was the seat of women's lore, women's inner sanctum, and women's wisdom. it was a time away, a retreat. It was re-cast later as a place for 'unclean' and 'untouchable' women, the original intent was rest, renewal, and honoring women.
for myself, i have a great love of the fertrility cycle. part of the reason why i'm so frustrated about the broad use of hormonal birth control is that it competely suspends this vibrant cycle. For most women on hormonal birth control, they're not actually having a 'period' but rather 'breakthrough bleeding.' it actually has a completely different biological effect than menstruation--which is why so many PMS symptoms are relieved, there is no menstruation, so no PMS! IN any case, this likely also plays into whether or not women are capable of something during their periods--assuming their periods really are periods! But it also effects so many other elements of the cycle, which also effects the hormonal situation of th ebody, the mental/emotional aspects of a woman, the sexuality of women (hormonal birth control has been shown to decrease sex drives in women, perhaps permenantly even after the use of these has been stopped), and perhaps even the spiritual connection to these cycles--and the broader life cycles--of women.
i think that element, too, would have bearing on this discussion of what we can and can't do on our periods, what we might and should, and perhaps why. | |
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| Cyndi, I think a natural flow of converstation is good too. But, when the main idea of the thread completely changes, then some people might miss the secondary converstation b/c they don't open the thread. Or, worse, the person missing it might have had something useful to add, but never opened the thread b/c the original topic did not apply to them. | |
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Location: Upstate NY | I enjoy the way the threads evolve from subject to subject.......... as a regular I jump to all the threads for this reason........... thats life, things change..... let go and surrender... | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Ravi - 2006-03-05 12:37 PM
I enjoy the way the threads evolve from subject to subject.......... as a regular I jump to all the threads for this reason........... thats life, things change..... let go and surrender...
Me too Ravi, | |
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