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| I think I recall an interesting topic on male circumcision being posted here in the past? If it was this site, I thought you may be interested in a news story I just read :
* Circumcision 'could cut HIV risk' *
Male circumcision could significantly reduce the burden of HIV in Africa, a study suggests.
Full story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/1/hi/health/5165118.stm
Fee | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Fee,
We'll all send you our foreskins and you can use them as napkin rings 
Nick | |
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| Nick - 2006-07-12 1:59 AM
Hi Fee,
We'll all send you our foreskins and you can use them as napkin rings
Nick
mine is long gone, since birth
circumcision is fairly common in the USA, even the medical books don't show the foreskin as a part of the male reproductive organ{at least the ones i've seen}
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Location: London, England | Hi Steven
I'll send you my napkin ring, but it will mean Fee doesnt have a full set
Nick | |
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| Nick - 2006-07-12 2:29 PM
Hi Steven
I'll send you my napkin ring, but it will mean Fee doesnt have a full set
Nick
Ehh, that's ok, we can take up a collection and direct all proceeds in her direction.
We use paper towels at my dinner table and it's been ages since the good china was taken out of the cabinet. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Steven,
Are 'good china' and cabinet' american expressions that I'm not familiar with? 
Nick | |
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| Nick - 2006-07-12 2:56 PM
Hi Steven,
Are 'good china' and cabinet' american expressions that I'm not familiar with?
Nick
O i wish!
wouldn't that be something 
i'm really talking about china sets, dinner place settings, actual napkins and paper towels.
boring stuff....
all sex stuff happens in the bedroom in my home....but there's already four children so far, so no more unprotected activity will occur 'cause four is plenty enough for me and my wife....i hope.
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Location: London, England | Hi Steven,
Yeah, sounds like you need to keep your napkin firmy in the drawer just one kid is a challenge, four must be like a cyclone
Nick | |
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| Well sir, Nick
it's always a storm a brewin'
but, I love each and every one of my little storms.
sometimes i think everyone should experience this, and then i think twice and realize that not everybody is 'cut out' for parenthood.
like Darwin said, "survival of the fittest"
and
like Bob Marley said, "only the fittest of the fittest shall survive"
but aren't these both extremely materialist philosophies, identifying our soul with the flesh?
whatever, i stacked the deck in my favor as best i could and 4 is plenty enough for me.
Edited by SCThornley 2006-07-12 3:33 PM
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Location: London, England | Hi Steven,
My son is the the most wonderful thing I have ever experienced-nothing comes close. I love him and take deligth in his existence with a ferocity that is astounding to me. And his mum, my ex, is taking him to the other side of the world in less than two months. It's like someone ripping a hole in your chest then p*ssing in it. I cannot describe the pain of not seeing him every day, and they live about a mile away-I am not looking forward to him being in Australia, and me in England. If i ever seem peeved, well, forgive me. I get a sense that you know what I'm talking about, you evidently love your kids and wife very much. I wish you the best, lap them up and wallow in the love that you have for them.
Nick | |
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| MAN! Nick,
Australia, huh?
that's quite a whallop to have to roll with.
well, you never can tell what the future holds, keep your hopes up. | |
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| 'Scuse me, what did I do to cause this reaction? The topic thread I remember stuck with me as I was surprised at how many American men were snipped (it doesn't happen much in the UK outside of certain Religious groups) and at their feelings of mutiliation over it. I posted this link as something positive on the subject and I don't mean HIV positive.
Did anyone actually read the article?
Fee
Nick - 2006-07-12 6:59 AM
Hi Fee,
We'll all send you our foreskins and you can use them as napkin rings
Nick | |
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| Orbilia - 2006-07-13 9:42 AM
'Scuse me, what did I do to cause this reaction? The topic thread I remember stuck with me as I was surprised at how many American men were snipped (it doesn't happen much in the UK outside of certain Religious groups) and at their feelings of mutiliation over it. I posted this link as something positive on the subject and I don't mean HIV positive.
Did anyone actually read the article?
Fee
i read it
and i noticed your intent.
most americans are circumcised at birth--we're told it is 'cleaner' that way
but would it make AIDs and HIV less common?
i don't know even after reading the article i'm not completely convinced.
i'm not sure i buy the whole origin of AIDs and HIV in the first place, but it would be better if these diseases didn't exist, but they do.
Edited by SCThornley 2006-07-13 10:03 AM
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| Thanks SC.
I must admit I was surprised by the article too. I know that the HIV virus is considered 'fragile' and not particularly safe from attack outside of the human body. I wonder if ordinary washing is sufficient to destroy it? If so, perhaps circumcision facilitates easier personal hygiene, especially in places like Africa when so many have limited access to water in the first place?
Fee
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| Interesting article. I worked with the full spectrum of HIV/AIDS when I was in SF (in the Castro District, no less). This certainly does not make me an expert in HIV/AIDS but it was quite an education to be there with an individual when he (usually he but also she many times) finds out he is HIV+, then watching HIV turn into AIDS, watching AIDS take over the body, etc...pretty awful.
I bet circumcision won't curb AIDS/HIV anywhere. Look at all the men in the Castro in AMERICA that died of AIDS in the 80s and 90s. I would bet they were circumsized.
Really, only abstinence curbs the spread of HIV/AIDS.
Steve Thornley, living in the Bay Area, I heard many different theories for the causes of HIV/AIDS. They were all interesting and who knows, maybe we'll find out they are correct. What are your thoughts on this?
HIV is very fragile outside of the body. Hepatitis C is another story. HCV freaks me out. HIV doesn't. I've had tons of acupuncture performed by my HIV+ (gay) boyfriend/study buddy in SF and I've given him lots of acupuncture, too. And I still donate my HIV NEGATIVE blood regularly. | |
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| This is a weird thread for this but, Nick, I am sorry you'll be separated from your son. It is apparent how painful this is for you. I hope he returns safe and sound very soon! fifi | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Fiona,
I read the article, but maybe not deeply enough-whu does circumcision cut HIV rates-and does it have to be done in infancy? I'm presuming that the circumcision was done on infants, so i cant understand how they got the data. I'll read it again, back later
Nick | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Fi,
Not for at least six years, probably eight, maybe never-we'll see how the young man feels. Thank you for caring
Take care
Nick | |
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| *Fifi* - 2006-07-13 10:53 AM
Interesting article. I worked with the full spectrum of HIV/AIDS when I was in SF (in the Castro District, no less). This certainly does not make me an expert in HIV/AIDS but it was quite an education to be there with an individual when he (usually he but also she many times) finds out he is HIV+, then watching HIV turn into AIDS, watching AIDS take over the body, etc...pretty awful.
I bet circumcision won't curb AIDS/HIV anywhere. Look at all the men in the Castro in AMERICA that died of AIDS in the 80s and 90s. I would bet they were circumsized.
Really, only abstinence curbs the spread of HIV/AIDS.
Steve Thornley, living in the Bay Area, I heard many different theories for the causes of HIV/AIDS. They were all interesting and who knows, maybe we'll find out they are correct. What are your thoughts on this?
HIV is very fragile outside of the body. Hepatitis C is another story. HCV freaks me out. HIV doesn't. I've had tons of acupuncture performed by my HIV+ (gay) boyfriend/study buddy in SF and I've given him lots of acupuncture, too. And I still donate my HIV NEGATIVE blood regularly.
well, growing up around Washington, D.C. and learning about and actually working on some of the facilities that do a lot of the chemical warfare and biological warfare work has certainly formed my opinions on the origins of many infectious diseases.
the notion that AIDs comes from men sleeping with monkeys is at the very least 'hard to believe', while at the same time believing that it is the result of a well planned, funded, and easily verified program [congressional records state] that existed, and by all accounts continues to exist is simply too horrible to honestly fathom.
Really, considering the actual evidence that exists opens up a whole can of worms that simply turns my stomach and makes me sick.
The conditions that politically marginal people dealt with in the past and continue to deal with today and will continue to deal with in the future is simply astounding.
The conditions of the colonial Congo could have resulted in something like AIDs, however that theory that AIDS could be a biological weapon that 'got out' is also just as plausible.
Even Lymes Disease was used as an incapacitating bioweapon in WWII. Lots of biowarfare throughout history is so unsavory, that we just want to pretend that it never happened.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| Nick - this will be no comfort whatsoever at this point but they do all leave us eventually. The difference when they are older is you can see them outgrowing the little family unit and sense the deep need for them to go out in the big wide world for themselves. As a child I was separated from my father, not such a physical distance but it may as well have been. He was killed in a car crash when I was 13. There is still a big, deep, wide hole in my heart about it all. Get a web cam, email, write letters and do EVERYTHING you can to stay in touch. and save your pennies for trips to Oz | |
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| Just given my 30th unit *Hi 5's you*!
Fee
And I still donate my HIV NEGATIVE blood regularly. | |
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| National Geographic have more on this research :
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0726_050726_circumcision_2.html
Apparently foreskin tissue is more vulnerable to HIV transmission than the tissues of the penile body itself, both from mechnical damage during intercourse and due to a certain cell type prevalent in foreskin tissue.
Circumcision would also appear to reduce the liklihood of catching several other diseases too.
Fee
Edited by Orbilia 2006-07-13 11:51 AM
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| Orbilia - 2006-07-13 11:47 AM
National Geographic have more on this research :
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0726_050726_circumcision_2.html
Apparently foreskin tissue is more vulnerable to HIV transmission than the tissues of the penile body itself, both from mechnical damage during intercourse and due to a certain cell type prevalent in foreskin tissue.
Circumcision would also appear to reduce the liklihood of catching several other diseases too.
Fee
Then why not!!!
promote it.
i was circumcised at birth and had no idea there was any big deal about it until recently.
if it will improve the general health of the populace then it should be promoted that way through public education programs and offered at birth.
i'd have no arguements against promoting this practice for the sake of improved health
i think it's a good thing
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| I was quite surprised by the number of men (often American) who posted that they considered their circumcision mutilation and very much disliked having had it done to them. I've only ever met one man I knew was circumcised and that only recently. He loves being that way and remembers not being as he was not done until age 6 (medical necessity due to not having been educated on how to pull back properly).
Fee
Edited by Orbilia 2006-07-13 12:20 PM
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| Wait a minute. Nick, you're not going to see your son for 6 or 8 years? I don't mean to be nosey & you can tell me to mind my own business but oh my gosh! That's a long time. If that's true, I'm really sad for you. I hope I misread your post.
Steve, I thought you meant you didn't believe AIDS came from HIV. I missed the lecture in Berkeley about this but I read the flyer which stated some interesting reasons HIV doesn't automatically cause AIDS. So far, I don't believe that theory, but, I'm open to reading compelling arguments either way. Really, the immune system is amazing.
Do any of you have thoughts on HIV NOT causing AIDS? Again, for the record, I believe the conventional theory that HIV does indeed cause (or turns into) AIDS. But I think anything is possible and scientists are still unraveling mysteries.
I don't think anyone would admit to having sex with an animal, but it is plausible. So is germ warfare. But, why would the evil scientists go through the trouble of inventing HIV/AIDS when there's already Ebola and Marfawn (<-- not spelled correctly)?
That brings up another semi-related issue of evil sociologists bringing cocaine and heroin into economically deprived neighborhoods to enslave the population. I don't believe that either but, then again, I wouldn't be surprized if that was true.
I think life is competition and viruses are one microcosmic example of that. The spiritual challenge is for humans to act with compassion and integrity while naturally competing (for space, for resources, for jobs...). I also think parents have a big influence on how children adapt to natural competition and stressors out there in the world. I can tell that people like Steve Thornley and Nick and Tourist have given their children so much love and wisdom that their kids will transform into amazing adults. | |
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| It does seem weird to surgically remove a part of a man's body that contains a lot of pleasurable nerve endings.
Why don't they remove the "shoe" gene in women? | |
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| I think the most compelling theory I've read on the origins of HIV scientifically speaking goes something like :
SIV is a related disease in Apes and Monkeys that seems to have originated in the Congo.
SIV mutated and jumped species to man to become HIV.
HIV has a higher fatality rate than SIV.
In general, new diseases show a higher fatality than long established ones as virulence tends to decrease over time as it's not in the virus' interests for the host body to die before it can replicate.
Another study I read recently suggested that there is some evidence to suggest HIV is decreasing in virulence which would support the above theory.
Whilst HIV is only sexually transmitted, SIV can be transmitted mucosally. That is, SIV may have been able to jump species via a monkey bite on a human rather than through sexual contact.
Fee
Edited by Orbilia 2006-07-13 12:29 PM
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| Very well said, Orbilia. You Brits have such an economy of words!
Orbilia, I'm forgetting this at the moment but maybe you will remember - was the book "Hot Zone" (or was is called Hot Spot?) based on a true story? I think it was. The moral of hte story is mutation ever stops - good or bad.
(Not to get too off topic but there's an interesting movie called Smilla's Sense of Snow with Gabriel Bryne (who we love) and Juliette Binoche (who we also love). I'm not going to ruin the movie for you so just take my recommendation).
(monkeys are gross!) | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Fi,
I will see him, twice a year-not enough!!
Nick | |
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Location: London, England | Hi all,
I read recently that they have traced the origin of HIV doen to a region just north of a river in the congo. They think it passed to man by the tradition of butchering the monkey on the spot-I wonder how long the virus stays alive after the death-it may be that this would not have happened if the dismembering of the corpse had occurred hours later?
Nick | |
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| *Fifi* - 2006-07-13 12:20 PM
I don't think anyone would admit to having sex with an animal, but it is plausible. So is germ warfare. But, why would the evil scientists go through the trouble of inventing HIV/AIDS when there's already Ebola and Marfawn (<-- not spelled correctly)?
Or antrax or a dozen other things. And if they did, how would they keep it a secret?
For the record, I've got an interesting book at home called "Everything you know about sex is wrong". They have a rather long interview with a beastophile, and he seems quite pleased with himself. Personally I think it's not much removed from getting a blow up doll, but that's just me.
Personally I've yet to hear of a convincing medical explaination of the health benifts of cutting a perfectly health part of the body, leaving it less than it was. I've met few people who I thought could improve much on the human body, though everybody seems determined to try. | |
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| Sounds like the Kinsey report.
So, the issue now is would you have your sons circumsized or not? I've heard the argument that men have their sons circumsized so they look like daddy and won't get teased in the locker room in high school. | |
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| *Fifi* - 2006-07-13 1:14 PM
Sounds like the Kinsey report.
So, the issue now is would you have your sons circumsized or not? I've heard the argument that men have their sons circumsized so they look like daddy and won't get teased in the locker room in high school.
it's always promoted as cleaner and healthier when we've covered it with the OB/GYN before the birth of our children--only one of the OB/GYN doctors we dealt with had opinions other than this.
1 out of three
and that one still recomended it in the case of a male birth, she just didn't want to perform the procedure herself because she considered it unecessary as long as the young male child was taught how to properly clean himself
wife has had three OB/GYN doctors over the years
Edited by SCThornley 2006-07-13 1:23 PM
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| I'm blushing now ;)
I've not come across that book so I'm afraid I can't help your recall but if you remember, I'd like the details as it sounds an interesting read.
Fee
*Fifi* - 2006-07-13 5:46 PM
Very well said, Orbilia. You Brits have such an economy of words!
Orbilia, I'm forgetting this at the moment but maybe you will remember - was the book "Hot Zone" (or was is called Hot Spot?) based on a true story? I think it was. The moral of hte story is mutation ever stops - good or bad.
(Not to get too off topic but there's an interesting movie called Smilla's Sense of Snow with Gabriel Bryne (who we love) and Juliette Binoche (who we also love). I'm not going to ruin the movie for you so just take my recommendation).
(monkeys are gross!) | |
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| SCThornley - 2006-07-13 1:21 PM
*Fifi* - 2006-07-13 1:14 PM
Sounds like the Kinsey report.
So, the issue now is would you have your sons circumsized or not? I've heard the argument that men have their sons circumsized so they look like daddy and won't get teased in the locker room in high school.
it's always promoted as cleaner and healthier when we've covered it with the OB/GYN before the birth of our children--only one of the OB/GYN doctors we dealt with had opinions other than this.
There are fads and superstitions in the medical community as well. For YEARS the accepted wisdom was that ulcers were caused by stress. In order to disprove this widely held, and deeply rooted myth the discover of the ulcer virus literally drank a vial full to disprove this theory. Cleaner and healthier are pretty vague terms that can really mean anything. | |
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| i'm just relaying the message i've received from the OB/GYN community that i've dealt with.
But, if it will save lives--and this is what the article states the studies show, then, why not get behind the whole idea?
There is nothing superstitious about venerial diseases such as AIDS, HIV, syphyllis, or any other host of STDs that 'may' be reduced if the practice of circumcision becomes widespread.
My four children are host to the proof that circumcision has not impeded my abilities in any way shape or form.
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| SCThornley - 2006-07-14 9:30 AM
But, if it will save lives--and this is what the article states the studies show, then, why not get behind the whole idea?
At what cost? Not getting in that position in the first place is still a better approach, works 100% of the time. Venerial diseases have a very specific way of spreading, which IS fairly avoidable. I don't have to cut off my hand to avoid putting it into a meat grinder.
There is nothing superstitious about venerial diseases such as AIDS, HIV, syphyllis, or any other host of STDs that 'may' be reduced if the practice of circumcision becomes widespread.
Irrelevant. This is new info. What your doctor was telling you was based on old ( and I believe incorrect) information.
My four children are host to the proof that circumcision has not impeded my abilities in any way shape or form.
It's not an either or thing. It's a quality of life issue. I've got a cousin who's missing 3 fingers from his right hand. He's a great guy, really successful, but at the same time he's impared. I think it really bothers him, and the people who meet him for the first time.
Another good example is glasses. I can "see" without my contacts, and probably function, people have done so for years. However, that does not mean that my glasses/contacts/lasik aren't a HUGE improvement in my quality of life or ability to function.
Edited by GreenJello 2006-07-14 10:38 AM
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| wow, dude
U R out there--good luck with that
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| I read recently that in the wake of the riots in California, quite a few liquor stores had to close. As a result in that area, STD's were reduced. That would be way to simple of a solution though of course. As far as what to do with the forskin stockpile, I'm sure Orbilia could be more creative than napkin rings. Could you imagine the powers in the necklace she'll be wearing at Stonehenge for the next solstice celebration? Or maybe I'm thinking small at necklace. How big is the stockpile getting? | |
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| SCThornley - 2006-07-14 10:42 AM
wow, dude
U R out there--good luck with that
Now, now, we're supposed to behave. Remember, no "abusive, threatening, or hateful language".
Edited by GreenJello 2006-07-14 12:11 PM
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Location: London, England | bstqltmkr - 2006-07-14 3:59 PM
I read recently that in the wake of the riots in California, quite a few liquor stores had to close. As a result in that area, STD's were reduced. That would be way to simple of a solution though of course. As far as what to do with the forskin stockpile, I'm sure Orbilia could be more creative than napkin rings. Could you imagine the powers in the necklace she'll be wearing at Stonehenge for the next solstice celebration? Or maybe I'm thinking small at necklace. How big is the stockpile getting?
We're up to twenty or so-some how Greenjello's contributing two, I didnt dare ask. (sorry, greenjello ). One of the scariest things I read this year was that as a virus has the ability to mutate-rapidly-it may one day be able to exist within the body of a mosquito. When, or if, that happens, we are all in trouble. No going outside without full body suit! Scary stuff.
Nick | |
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| GreenJello - 2006-07-14 12:10 PM
SCThornley - 2006-07-14 10:42 AM
wow, dude
U R out there--good luck with that
Now, now, we're supposed to behave. Remember, no "abusive, threatening, or hateful language".
i appolgize for my "abusive, threatening, or hateful language". i hope that in time you may heal from the traumatizing event, and like i said,"good luck with that".
you are very different than me, i would never have considered the foreskin as utilitarian as fingers, nor would i have considered inferring that the circumcised are impaired as someone who has lost fingers.
if it is a matter of health, then the posted article makes a clear case.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| I am not often so surprised when two members clash! I am willing to bet you two would get along like the proverbial house on fire if you met.
I acutally find this topic extremely inflammatory and was debating removing it the moment I saw the first post. It is just far too emotional for many people. | |
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| <p> tourist - 2006-07-14 6:43 PM I am not often so surprised when two members clash! I am willing to bet you two would get along like the proverbial house on fire if you met. I acutally find this topic extremely inflammatory and was debating removing it the moment I saw the first post. It is just far too emotional for many people.
it is suprising to say the least, tourist
it appears that there are some places i should not go, but i'm not holding animosity, but that might not be coming out the right way, ah well
que cera cera
Edited by SCThornley 2006-07-14 6:58 PM
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Location: London, England | Hi all,
The thing is, we're talking about being circumcised as though it gave the same protection as using a condom-and I don't think the report claims that. So could being circumcised as a means of preventing HIV infection actually be counter-productive, in that it gives a false sense of security? I would have thought that in Africa, removing the stigma of AIDS, removing the widespread rape (one every three seconds in South Africa), supplying free condoms and informing people(South African government officials recently dissed the use of expensive anti-retroviral drugs in favour of garlic).
And by the way, having sex with an animal is not like having sex with a blow-up doll-we should only have sex with some one who consents to it, and this means that children and animals are not sexual partners, but only victims of rape. people who have sex with either need to be physically mutilated and then hung up at the town square for the flys to feast on-sorry, i have strong views on this.
Anyway, lets not give ourselves or our children the impression thay they are protected by virtue of the fact that they are circumcised, or make woemn think that they are safe because their prospective partner is circumcised. I think that the situation in Africa is so different-a US delegation was laughed out of there once for suggesting abstinence as a means of preventing the spread of HIV-rape was so common that promoting abstinence was just not an option-truly horrific.
Nick
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| I completely agree with Nick about children and animals. Totally criminal and pervy.
And, I'm sure the hundreds (thousands?) of men who died of AIDS over the past few decades in San Francisco were probably circumsized.
I still challenge people to consider absistence. When I lived in SF I didn't engage in ANY sexual activity for fear of HIV. (Too many bi-curious men in the Bay Area, but that's another thread). I didn't even kiss anyone on the lips for fear of other STDs.
Absistence never hurt anybody.
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| considering the cultural shock that is very tactile, all the way across the Atlantic, it seems that the eventual answer to African located problems will have to be solved by indigenous Africans. No matter how horrific it is to sit and watch someone destroy themselves; if someone doesn't want to learn and change they won't.
But all of Africa is not a trainwreck, there are booming economies within the continent and, according to my financial advisors, some of the stable governments are promoting some of the best economic and social growth that exist for investment right now.
Unfortunately these rays of hope live juxtaposed to the most vile realities imaginable. | |
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| Well, Africa is a big place. There might be pockets of stability but overall I think Africa IS a trainwreck. I don't think it's a trainwreck because of the AIDS epidemic but because of the overall thugery. Most of the countries are ruled by murderous thugs, like Robert Mugabe.
The Economist did an interesting article of the corruption in Africa in 2004. Apparently, the majority of international financial aid goes into the pockets of the top thugs. In fact, the article focused on the wives of the top thugs and their European shopping sprees. One wife has been banned from entering France because she only goes there for massive shopping sprees with money that does not belong to her.
It's depressing; tons of innocent people suffer as a result. I wish I could send the link but I don't have the article anymore.
But, it's interesting you sort of hint that abstinence is cultural, Steve. Maybe that's what you meant and I don't want to put words into your mouth.
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| i so wish that there was more good to say about the Nations of Africa.
there is so much wrong.
like so many others, i wish for some fix that would make the extravagantly resource rich continent enter the civilized era and become more disappointed each day when the news becomes more and more depressing.
i so hope that tomorrow will bring better news, until then i'll hope that what happened in Zimbabwe and so many other nations will not cause the good of the world to turn their backs and simply condemn the nations of Africa to their own fate.
there may still be some hope, and some of the nations of Africa are doing well, let's hope and pull for those pockets of stability.
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Location: London, England | Hi all,
The trouble with this thread is that the title immediately makes me think it's a jewish daily newspaper, and i have to keep on telling myself it's not funny 
Nick | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| There is a lot to be hopeful for in Africa. My boss works in Eritrea a lot (next door to Ethiopia) and they seems to be a wonderful group of people who so far are simply working to rebuild after decades of civil war with Ethiopia. They make a priority of educating their children, will not adopt out their orphans to the west as they consider them to be their most important resource. Apparently you can find the Minister of Transport working on repairing the railway lines with a pick and shovel just as easily as finding him in his office. Hard workers! They seem to have peaceful relations with the various religions and ethnic groups - we'll see how that goes as time goes on.
I get impatient when I hear about famine in Ethiopia since I am told it is not famine, but $ being spent on war and weapons rather than food (not unusual in Africa) and that Ethiopia is not keen to end the civil war at all since they send Somali troops to the front rather than their own people in order to weaken Somalia and someday take it over as well. I may have some of this not exactly right. I find it a bit depressing to think about. But ever so interesting to hear from people who actually are there on the ground for a month or so at a time and really knowing the people. | |
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| when i worked in a big lab, a lot of the fellas and gals were from Ethiopia and Eritria.
i loved to hear them talk of their homeland, even when they had terrible tales. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| I love hearing about the Italian influence in Eritrea. I had no idea the Italians were there for a long time. It still seems odd and amusing to me that when they want a treat they go out for Italian food  My boss does workshops for the preschool teachers there. They have NOTHING to work with so we have to be sure to order supplies before she goes. When she gets back she kinda expects us to do art with nothing. We tease her about it, but I can see how it would be hard to come back and see us using food for art that promptly gets thrown out when the kids she just left would be happy to have it to eat. | |
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| SCThornley - 2006-07-14 1:44 PM
you are very different than me, i would never have considered the foreskin as utilitarian as fingers, nor would i have considered inferring that the circumcised are impaired as someone who has lost fingers.
I think it's probably better to compare it to a loss of eye sight. It's a loss of sensation, and ability to perserve the world. Maybe it's a big one, maybe not. There are also some suggestions that the loss of the foreskin effects the operation of the entire instrument. Personally I'll never know the differnce, but I have heard annecdotal reports from people who have. | |
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| Tourist, I'm really sorry I posted the link.
In my naivity, I assumed the scientific content of the report would be of interest given the previous thread on circumcision.
Fee
tourist - 2006-07-15 11:43 PM
I acutally find this topic extremely inflammatory and was debating removing it the moment I saw the first post. It is just far too emotional for many people. | |
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| This is actually an ancient debate. I was reading Heroditius The Greek author who is considered both a father of History and Anthropology made the following statement of Egyptians who circumsized.
"The Egyptions would rather be clean than Natural."
I've personally known a couple of individuals who had to have the surgery as an adult because the foreskin was too tight. While it was a minor surgery, it was anything but easy. | |
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| Aha! I found the info for and against the HIV/AIDS hypothesis.
Peter Duesberg, a molecular biologist at UC Berkeley, and a member of the National Academy of Sciences argues that there is no evidence that HIV causes AIDS. His main arguments are:
1. There is no single causative agent of AIDS. He claims that the disease is based on one's lifestyle.
2. AIDS is a collection of noninfectious deficiencies predominately associated with drug use, malnutrition, parasitic infections and other specific risks.
3. HIV is just another causative agent like those that cause other opportunistic diseases.
In April of 1989, Shyh-Ching Lo claimed to have discovered a non-HIV "virus like infectious agent" in 7 of 10 AIDS patients. It was a mycoplasma (bacterium without cell walls), which appears to serve as a cofactor for HIV infection but is not necessary for the HIV infection to occur. Luc Montagnier, discovered of HIV, says the virus (HIV) is essential, but may need a cofactor to establish HIV disease/AIDS.
For the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis:
1. HIV is found in virtually all AIDS patients (90%)
2. HIV has been identified inside and on the surface of T4 cells of HIV positive and AIDS patients using electron mircoscopy.
3. HIV-DNA can be found in as many as 1 of 10 blood lymphocytes of persons with AIDS.
4. Antibodies against the virus, viral antigens and HIV-RNA have been found in HIV positive and AIDS patients.
5. The virus has been found in HIV positive and AIDS patients, but not in healthy, low-behavioral risk individuals.
6. The virus has been found in both low-risk and high-risk hemophiliacs.
What else could it be?
Idiopathic CD4 Lymphopenia (ICL) is described by the CDC as the following:
1. Having AIDS like symptoms with no HIV infection
2. Having less than 300 T4 cells per microliter
3. Having no HIV infection
4. Having no other illness or therapy associated with T4 cell depletion
I don't have the stats for how many cases of ICL there are worldwide. Does anyone out there have that info? Isn't this interesting? It just goes to show us how involved and intricate our immune systems are. Then, I think humans are really delicate when a dog can drink from a puddle and still be ok. fifi | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Fifi - I think that theory may be one that is unpopular but possibly will prove to be right in the long run. They may indeed find that it is not a direct link from HIV to AIDS but at the moment it is the best we have, I guess. I also have heard (and this may be rumour or myth but as Stephen Colbert says, it has "truthiness") that AIDS statistics in Africa are inflated as diagnostics are few or unavailable and anyone who looks like they might have died of AIDS is automatically listed that way for political reasons. At the risk of sounding very un-PC (and you regulars know I am not an uncaring person) there were starving orphans in Africa when I was a kid 40-odd (some very odd) years ago and there still are. I am beginning to think they are not my personal responsibility, although I am glad Bill and Melinda Gates are looking into it, and I am not so sure what we would do with all those extra people tomorrow if we were able to save them all today. In the darkest recesses of my mind I just see more cannon fodder for the warlords and diamond mines  | |
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| I agree with you, Tourist. In fact, I find the assumption that HIV doesn't cause AIDS sheer lunacy. But, then again, the French physician who suggested to his peers (200 years ago) they wash their hands inbetween patients was considered the laughing stock in his professional community.
By the way, I love Stephen Colbert's sense of humor and choice of words. I figure whatever the mainstream media says is usually an exaggeration. Is he Canadian? Maybe Stephen Colbert can run for US president if he's American-born. (It would be nice to have a president who wasn't so mealy mouthed) | |
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| tourist - 2006-07-20 6:25 PM
At the risk of sounding very un-PC (and you regulars know I am not an uncaring person) there were starving orphans in Africa when I was a kid 40-odd (some very odd) years ago and there still are.
Sam Kinesan did a really good bit on this a while back when there was famine in Ethopia. Basically it boiled down to this "There's no FOOD here, that's why you're staving. And there never has been any food here. Now instead of sending you some food, why don't we send some trucks, and you can all go where the FOOD is." I think it's a bit funnier when he does it, but the up shot is that feeding people on anything but a really temporary basis is a bad idea, becuase people tend to make more people who also need to be fed.
fifi- I find it a sad sign of the times that the Daily Show, and Fark.com seem to have much better news that Nightline and msnbc.com. I haven't seen it in a bit, but I loved this little clip they did on the internet/net nuetrality bit.
The info on HIV/AIDS is really interesting too.... all too often people draw inferences that seem to be correct, but aren't quite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YedWtX9tKE
Edited by GreenJello 2006-07-20 10:12 PM
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| Further follow up studies on the original one that started this thread :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6176209.stm
Fee | |
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| If something is risky, that is the thing to be avoided. Not, introduce another thing which avoids the original risk, and creates new risks. That is the basis of all medication. | |
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| Man, I must really be becoming a real yogi--I understand Beloved Brother Neel these days! It's kinda like heeding the guidance of Yoda. | |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-14 5:57 PM
If something is risky, that is the thing to be avoided. Not, introduce another thing which avoids the original risk, and creates new risks. That is the basis of all medication.
Good luck with teaching abstinence in Africa it might work | |
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| SCThornley - 2006-12-14 7:27 PM
kulkarnn - 2006-12-14 5:57 PM
If something is risky, that is the thing to be avoided. Not, introduce another thing which avoids the original risk, and creates new risks. That is the basis of all medication.
Good luck with teaching abstinence in Africa it might work
AIDS has nothing to do with Africa except selling aids related aid to Africa. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Neel,
Why hasn't AIDS got anything to do with Africa? Well, I mean, it's got something to do with practically the entire human population at the moment, but in Africa, the issue is particularly relevant.
Nick | |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-14 10:40 PM
SCThornley - 2006-12-14 7:27 PM
kulkarnn - 2006-12-14 5:57 PM
If something is risky, that is the thing to be avoided. Not, introduce another thing which avoids the original risk, and creates new risks. That is the basis of all medication.
Good luck with teaching abstinence in Africa it might work
AIDS has nothing to do with Africa except selling aids related aid to Africa.
Doesn't India have the largest HIV and AIDS infected Population, at least those reported?
What's being done there?
I'd rather study the cultures that seem to have success in these matters and apply the functioning philosophies to the problems that present themselves.
Simply put, SOMETHING CAN be done to prevent the spread of infectious diseases not only but also including HIV and AIDS.
Putting SOMETHING into practice is the real challenge. | |
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| Dear Nick: What I meant is: There is nothing special about Africa in terms of AIDS. I agree that it is all over. But, special thing about Africa is people want to sell them AIDS related medication.
Dear SCT: Yes, India also has it. But, special reports about India are for selling medication to India, same as Africa. There is no special thing needs to be done in USA as medication is rampant.
Now, AIDS is not a special disease as compared to cold and cough. What I mean is in terms of solving it. It is not that cold should be let go and AIDS only should be prevented. What should be done is to prevent both by 'NOT doing risky things' which cause it. And, NOT by doing 'other risky things' which superficially suppress it while giving 'more other risks'. | |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-15 10:03 AM
Dear Nick: What I meant is: There is nothing special about Africa in terms of AIDS. I agree that it is all over. But, special thing about Africa is people want to sell them AIDS related medication.
Dear SCT: Yes, India also has it. But, special reports about India are for selling medication to India, same as Africa. There is no special thing needs to be done in USA as medication is rampant.
Now, AIDS is not a special disease as compared to cold and cough. What I mean is in terms of solving it. It is not that cold should be let go and AIDS only should be prevented. What should be done is to prevent both by 'NOT doing risky things' which cause it. And, NOT by doing 'other risky things' which superficially suppress it while giving 'more other risks'.
This begs the question, what is the risk to a properly done circumcision? | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Neel,
Isn't it that Africa is faced with the problem of there being a vast amount of unprotected sex taking place? In America and Britain, for example, the risk population is homosexuals and injecting drug addicts. In Africa, I presume that huge numbers of patients are heterosexual, and the same in India. But I see your point, with the revenues that could be generated for drug companies. But remove the stigma of using condoms and increase their availability, and you have removed the means of transferring the disease-I think we have to do this soon, before the virus mutates-you don't want a HIV virus that can live in the mosqito, for example.
Nick | |
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| Nick - 2006-12-15 10:38 AM
Hi Neel,
Isn't it that Africa is faced with the problem of there being a vast amount of unprotected sex taking place? In America and Britain, for example, the risk population is homosexuals and injecting drug addicts. In Africa, I presume that huge numbers of patients are heterosexual, and the same in India. But I see your point, with the revenues that could be generated for drug companies. But remove the stigma of using condoms and increase their availability, and you have removed the means of transferring the disease-I think we have to do this soon, before the virus mutates-you don't want a HIV virus that can live in the mosqito, for example.
Nick
This mutation is one that is being highly investigated.
Air borne infectious diseases are security risks, GLOBALLY.
Also, considering history, a well deployed infectious disease is a crippling weapon, that will bring your enemy to their knees and into the grave quite quickly. Beyond that, consider who would imagine that such a thing could be done. That is why such a stealthy weapon is the VOGUE of modern warfare.
When you drop a bomb of any magnitude, everyone wants to know who did it.
When an entire population is nearly wiped out, or affected so severely because of some infectious disease, well, politicians will fall all over themselves to show their empathetic concern and pity but what is actually done about it?
The science of infectious diseases is little understood by the general population and much mystery and superstition still surround much of the subject. However, when an educated scientist does publish their findings it doesn't make the evening news. If the general population was more motivated to educate themselves instead of getting high or having sex, then the situation would be much different.
Education is key, but that doesn't seem to be making much head way.
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| Phew! So I just read the entire thread for the first time. I've seen the circumcision (sp?) news. I think it's interesting. I'm pretty naive when it comes to these things. I've never been with anyone who wasn't circumcized...and I'm not a dude, so I don't know about the difference. It seems to me, that if you are circumcized at birth, you wouldn't know the difference in sensation and you wouldn't remember the procedure at all. I've heard it's a cleanliness issue and that some guys don't keep it clean. And to me, that's just completely gross.
As for the abstinence issue, it's a tricky one. When I was in college, I took a class on History of Modern Latin America. And this is one of the issues we talked about. In some of these areas, sex is one of the only forms of entertainment. It passes time, and it's a heck of a lot of fun. So, to ask people to give that up, when it's one of the few things they have (especially where other comforts are hard to come by- food, shelter, etc). It's a lot to ask. Sometimes the risk is worth taking. Now, the repercussions of the risk- being passed for generations, creating a more virulent strain, etc should definitely be discussed. Because AIDS isn't an individual risk... as say, smoking (now, I'm not comparing AIDS to cigarettes- simply that smoking is a risk people are willing to take, but it's not passed from one person to another)... people need to understand that. And then be allowed to make their own decisions about it. I don't think abstinence is that big of a deal... I don't know that I could do it forever, but if my life depended on it, who knows? | |
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| OK. I shall circumbulate 100 times (do you know what that means?) and then respond to the queries.
Until then, Om Shantih. | |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-15 4:24 PM
OK. I shall circumbulate 100 times (do you know what that means?) and then respond to the queries.
Until then, Om Shantih.
isn't that walking in a circle 100 times?? or is it something else?? | |
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| I feel so passionate about HIV/AIDS, which doesn't make me an expert but I got quite an education living and working with the HIV+/AIDS community in San Francisco.
First, they don't call parts of Africa the "AIDS Belt" for nothing. Its true, the strain of HIV in the AIDS Belt is different from the strain in the US (and probably other Western countries).
The awful sex industry in Asia is the awful reason for the awful spread of HIV. Sorry, I get emotional. They use younger and younger children for sex since they are less likely to have the disease.
I say do whatever to slow the spread of HIV/AIDS. Certain sexual practices definitely contribute to the spread; mostly having several different sex partners frequently, whether hetero or gay. The last I checked, in the US, heteros were spreading the disease at a quicker rate than the gay community. Often times these groups overlap due to curiosity. Remember, women's physiology makes contracting viruses easier.
As I was leaving SF, the gay community was clammoring about reopening the bath houses (which were closed in the 80s when scientists figured out HIV was causing a huge part of gay community to die off at such an awful rate). I mean what is that?!? See, people who are HIV+ are living longer and healthier due to the medications. So, its as if they think HIV doesn't exist or that they are cured.
I don't know, I wonder if we'll ever figure out how to handle a retrovirus like HIV. In the meantime, I say let's do whatever it takes. | |
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| I'm with you Fifi... | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Fifi,
I think I'm probably too late to second that, so I'll third or fourth it.
Take care
Nick | |
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Regular
Posts: 86
Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Men who have forskins also have ultrasensitive glans, as the foreskin protects this delicate skin from constant rubbing on surfaces such as underwear and the forhand (during masturbation). Such delicate skin is much more susceptible to breakage during sex and therefore the virus is more easily transmissible directly intot he bloodstream.
Men who are curcumcised however, have a toughened glans due to constant rubbing of the skin on surfaces (such as underwear and masturbation), whereby during the penetrative act, the skin is less likely to become broken, making it more difficult for the HIV virus to enter the bloodstream.
Bloodborne pathogens are easily urinated out of the urethra and washed off the glans of a circumsized penis thatn an uncircumsized penis. It is a matter of mechanics. Gay men have been aware of this for years. I first heard of this about 10 years ago!
Why is it just now being reported?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| As always I hate to wade into this issue, but I will say that NONE of this is news. We were debating all of it in the 70's and 80's before AIDS. It has just become "news" again because of AIDS. It has always been a source of curiosity to me how the conservative Christian US back in the 30's or so decided it was ok to adopt a practice that was once considered exclusively Jewish. | |
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| SCThornley - 2006-12-15 10:24 AM
kulkarnn - 2006-12-15 10:03 AM
This begs the question, what is the risk to a properly done circumcision?
Dear Joscmt: Yes, cicumbulate means walk around a deity a certain number of times. This is one of the Bodily Tapas (tapasswaadhyaayaiishwarapranidhaani kriyayogah... Patanjali Chapter 2 . 1 ). This way, deity shall bless you with your wish in addition to what is stated in Patanjali...
Now, two things:
1. All the body parts which a human has are borne as they are needed for that human. jaatyantaraparinaamah prakrutyaapuuraat... Patanjali Chapter 4. And, this happens automatically due to the Karma of that person. nimittamaprayojakam prakrutiinaam varanabhedastu tatah kshetrikavat.. Patanjali Chapter 4. Each part has a purpose related to the functions of that human called as constitution.
2. To cut down that part, causes disfunctioning of that function and causes problems with the bodily functioning as well as mental functioning.
Sorry, three things:
3. If you see the above all posts, you shall see what is that really causes Aids Symptoms. And, therefore, those are the things which should be removed. And, not the skin over the penus. I do not know what they shall remove in case of women.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | kulkarnn - 2006-12-17 11:31 AM
I do not know what they shall remove in case of women.
Hopefully NOTHING. Don't even go there!!! | |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-17 11:31 AM
SCThornley - 2006-12-15 10:24 AM
kulkarnn - 2006-12-15 10:03 AM
This begs the question, what is the risk to a properly done circumcision?
Dear Joscmt: Yes, cicumbulate means walk around a deity a certain number of times. This is one of the Bodily Tapas (tapasswaadhyaayaiishwarapranidhaani kriyayogah... Patanjali Chapter 2 . 1). This way, deity shall bless you with your wish in addition to what is stated in Patanjali...
Now, two things:
1. All the body parts which a human has are borne as they are needed for that human. jaatyantaraparinaamah prakrutyaapuuraat... Patanjali Chapter 4. And, this happens automatically due to the Karma of that person. nimittamaprayojakam prakrutiinaam varanabhedastu tatah kshetrikavat.. Patanjali Chapter 4. Each part has a purpose related to the functions of that human called as constitution.
2. To cut down that part, causes disfunctioning of that function and causes problems with the bodily functioning as well as mental functioning.
Sorry, three things:
3. If you see the above all posts, you shall see what is that really causes Aids Symptoms. And, therefore, those are the things which should be removed. And, not the skin over the penus. I do not know what they shall remove in case of women.
What is the lost functioning of that function and problems with the bodily functioning as well as mental functioning that you are referring to?
I am unfamiliar with what issues or functions you mention. I am circumcised, at birth, and therefore must be suffering these mental and physical disabilities.
I would like to recognize what they are and be honest with myself about my disability and inferiority to the whole man that has not suffered this egregious injustice.
Possibly I could seek out a support group to help me deal with my unrecognized problem.
Please describe in excruciating detail each and every minutiae so that I may begin my education , thank you in advance.
Edited by SCThornley 2006-12-17 12:02 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| OK - here is the moderator speaking! Let's not get into right and wrong here. This is a hugely emotionally charged subject and it can cause massive problems between posters. Everyone keep very cool and calm here please, so I don't have to delete the thread. Seriously. 
If 60 or 70 years ago the medical "experts" decided every child should have the tip of their pinky finger cut off and virtually everyone went along with this, we would now be in the midst of debate about the right and wrong of pinky finger amputation. Some would argue sucessfully that we can all live a perfectly happy and healthy live without them and since half of the medical community still thinks it is necessary and may prevent some dreaded disease, we should continue to do it. Some would argue successfully that it is unecessary surgery, serves no purpose and people with intact pinky fingers are happier. It could, as this discussion shows, go back and forth forever in an ever-increasing level of confusion and aggravation and not get anyone anywhere.
For the record, I feel that to try and introduce this procedure into an area where it is not culturally acceptable is akin to the religious missionaries who tried to convert "the savage." Not a great idea with a dubious and perhaps dangerous outcome. My 2 cents. | |
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| tourist - 2006-12-17 5:45 PM
OK - here is the moderator speaking! Let's not get into right and wrong here. This is a hugely emotionally charged subject and it can cause massive problems between posters. Everyone keep very cool and calm here please, so I don't have to delete the thread. Seriously.
If 60 or 70 years ago the medical "experts" decided every child should have the tip of their pinky finger cut off and virtually everyone went along with this, we would now be in the midst of debate about the right and wrong of pinky finger amputation. Some would argue sucessfully that we can all live a perfectly happy and healthy live without them and since half of the medical community still thinks it is necessary and may prevent some dreaded disease, we should continue to do it. Some would argue successfully that it is unecessary surgery, serves no purpose and people with intact pinky fingers are happier. It could, as this discussion shows, go back and forth forever in an ever-increasing level of confusion and aggravation and not get anyone anywhere.
For the record, I feel that to try and introduce this procedure into an area where it is not culturally acceptable is akin to the religious missionaries who tried to convert "the savage." Not a great idea with a dubious and perhaps dangerous outcome. My 2 cents.
Yes, i concur, however as one of the disabled victims of an injustice, I'd like to know what I'm missing out on so that I can at least know what it is that makes me less complete and inferior.
Thank you.
I'd like to arm myself with knowledge, so that I can try to overcome my disability. | |
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What is the lost functioning of that function and problems with the bodily functioning as well as mental functioning that you are referring to? I am unfamiliar with what issues or functions you mention. I am circumcised, at birth, and therefore must be suffering these mental and physical disabilities.
===> As for these details, I do not wish to give socio-medical answers. For these details go to www.google.com and do an advanced search on 'cicumcision effects'.
===> As for Yogic explanation: Let me say this way. Suppose any part of body is cut in childhood, that shall minimum cause a good amount of pain. This pain has be be borne by the child who is innocent and can only cry and not explain what is happening. In this case, possibly a medical drug shall be given to suppress the pain. All drugs with no exception are injurious to natural health process, and more so of a developing child. The part which is cut has a sense of perception in terms of function of the penis as well as vagina. And removing this part reduces that touch cause lack of that function and related effects.
I would like to recognize what they are and be honest with myself about my disability and inferiority to the whole man that has not suffered this egregious injustice.
===> Please see further.
Possibly I could seek out a support group to help me deal with my unrecognized problem.
===> Please see further.
Please describe in excruciating detail each and every minutiae so that I may begin my education , thank you in advance.
===> Your understanding that you must suffer a lot due to circumcision, either physically or mentally is wrong. Because, how much one shall suffer, and who will suffer depends on the other factors with that individual. For example, two girls who are sexually molested may not show the same suffering in the adulthood. In fact, one of them may not show any suffering as understood by others.
===> The only way to know the effect of that kind will be: Taking a particular person A, who is once not cicumcised and then circumcised and then compare. But, this becomes impossible when A is already circumcised. Because, then A shall not know what he would be like without circum..
===> The procedure of circumcision started before AIDs was known, and therefore had nothing to do with AIDs prevention. And, it does not have anything to do with aids. This is similar to people drrinking red wine before Cholesterol was invented. Wine has nothing to do with cholesterol prevention. Yes, after drinking wine its symptomatic effect is cholesterol reduction at the cost of introduction of alcohol which has its own bad effects.
Similarly introduction of circumcision to reduce/suppress/negate AIDS symptoms is not acceptable, as it is not a natural heath procedure. All procedures which are not in line with natural health process are unhealthy. Surgical removal of any body part is acceptable only when its non-removal can cause a reasonable damage to the rest of the organism. For example, a lead bullet is introduced into a body part. That part around the bullet should be quickly removed so that the lead poisoning of the rest of the organism does not take place.
===> Considering the facts that 'those who are NOT circumcised are not negatively affected in physical and mental abilities' and 'those who are cicumcised do not show any special physical and mental abilities just because they are circumcised' proves that circumcision is an unwanted and unhealthy procedure, except when the REMOVAL of that skin is must to save the rest of the organism.
===> But of course, I accept that in spite of the circumcision, rest of the organism survives, and sometimes in a most wonderful state, such as that of my brother SCT. | |
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| For the record, I'll say it AGAIN, I posted the original link and the updated links for their scientific interest in respect to AIDS control and NOT as an advocacy for OR against circumcision.
The reason this topic is news at the moment is that scientists have finally got around to testing the theories of the 60s/70s to see once and for all, whether circumcision has an affect on AIDs/HIV transmission or not.
As has been pointed out the democraphics of AIDS/HIV varies country to country. One of the reasons this research and other studies are being done is to see if pre-existing cultural differences are underpinning the variation in AIDS/HIV demographics. The US, for example, has a much more wide-spread tradition of circumcision than the UK does so this study could have been done using these two populations. However, as stated in the study, it was recognised that this subject is highly inflammatory in those countries. This obviously raises issues concerning the morality of 'experimenting on third world countries', however it should be recognised that the sheer scale of devastation being inflicted in Africa by AIDS means that we may be at a point of having to take extreme, perhaps ethically unpalatable, decisions on how to control its spread.
Yes, abstinence is an obvious, non-invasive method of control but there are some strong cultural taboos against it in some African populations as well as Jos's point that when sex is your only pleasure in life, selling the idea of giving it up is going to be hard. Doubly so when you expect to die young (by comparison to 'first world' populations) anyway.
Fee
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| Orbilia - 2006-12-18 6:52 AM
For the record, I'll say it AGAIN, I posted the original link and the updated links for their scientific interest in respect to AIDS control and NOT as an advocacy for OR against circumcision.
The reason this topic is news at the moment is that scientists have finally got around to testing the theories of the 60s/70s to see once and for all, whether circumcision has an affect on AIDs/HIV transmission or not.
As has been pointed out the democraphics of AIDS/HIV varies country to country. One of the reasons this research and other studies are being done is to see if pre-existing cultural differences are underpinning the variation in AIDS/HIV demographics. The US, for example, has a much more wide-spread tradition of circumcision than the UK does so this study could have been done using these two populations. However, as stated in the study, it was recognised that this subject is highly inflammatory in those countries. This obviously raises issues concerning the morality of 'experimenting on third world countries', however it should be recognised that the sheer scale of devastation being inflicted in Africa by AIDS means that we may be at a point of having to take extreme, perhaps ethically unpalatable, decisions on how to control its spread.
Yes, abstinence is an obvious, non-invasive method of control but there are some strong cultural taboos against it in some African populations as well as Jos's point that when sex is your only pleasure in life, selling the idea of giving it up is going to be hard. Doubly so when you expect to die young (by comparison to 'first world' populations) anyway.
Fee
and so,
the foreskin has been proved to be a good carrier tissue for these pathogens that lead to HIV and subsequently AIDS.
Just as it was proved that anal tissues, when ruptured, are also very good routes of entry for these same afore mentioned pathogens.
The spread of these diseases are 'Security Risks' and WILL be managed by those that have the ability to do so, FORCEFULLY if necessary.
Maybe one of the symptoms of widespread circumcision is a proclivity towards funding very aggressive foreign policy and the build up of the corporate military complex? | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Steve,
Are you talking about Israel or America? So you are saying that it's all down to 'foreskin envy'? Oh my god, you could be onto something there.
Nick | |
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| Nick - 2006-12-18 9:21 AM
Hi Steve,
Are you talking about Israel or America? So you are saying that it's all down to 'foreskin envy'? Oh my god, you could be onto something there.
Nick
Could be.
Maybe the benefits gained come at a price. But then again, it certainly appears that the groups who are uncircumcised show no lack of violence. So, maybe not.
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| *sighs* I'm not advocating foreceable circumcision either, simply stating the obvious that when any infection reaches pandemic proportions, control almost always involves some form of compulsory treatment / control methods. Previous pandemics have utilised compulsory isolation for example, either in one's own home or in hospital ward. Also compulsory and/or mass innoculation.
As a scientist, you look at all options that may be possible. You weed out those that would never be ethically acceptable such as culling infected humans (ok, extreme, non-realistic example but it makes the point). You then test the rest.
Fee | |
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Location: London, England |
Hi Fiona,
I agree, but I don't think Steven is setting the proper tone by refusing to apologise for being circumcised Come on, Steven, you know it's the right thing to do!
Take care
Nick | |
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| Nick - 2006-12-18 11:09 AM
Hi Fiona,
I agree, but I don't think Steven is setting the proper tone by refusing to apologise for being circumcised Come on, Steven, you know it's the right thing to do!
Take care
Nick
Even though I was very young, and I do 'feel' as if I was victimized, I guess I should have enforced my will as a newborn and been more vocal and if that didn't get my point across, I should have become physical [actually, as the story goes, I did wee-wee on the offending butcher of my foreskin].
I guess even newborns have to take responsibility for their own bodily part, in the end.
Maybe in the resurrection I'll be made whole. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Steve,
I understand there's lockers at the pearly gates-there'll be one with your name on, and you can reclaim your foreskin, and know the ever-lasting tranquillity of death with, rather than life without. I envy your journey.
Nick
Edited by Nick 2006-12-18 11:38 AM
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| By reading couple of above posts, I think I did not understand what brother SCT wrote in the first place. Now, I need help from Tourist and Cyndi. Please!!!! | |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-12-18 12:36 PM
By reading couple of above posts, I think I did not understand what brother SCT wrote in the first place. Now, I need help from Tourist and Cyndi. Please!!!!
nyah, you got it spot on.
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| SCThornley - 2006-12-18 12:50 PM
kulkarnn - 2006-12-18 12:36 PM
By reading couple of above posts, I think I did not understand what brother SCT wrote in the first place. Now, I need help from Tourist and Cyndi. Please!!!!
nyah, you got it spot on.
Thanks brother SCT. I thought Tourist and CB could not help me much in the matter of circumcision any way. But, they are so helpful that I could not xxxx. | |
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| I would take a guess that HIV has been around longer than just the 1900s. Cats can get FIV and monkeys can get SIV. To quote radio talkhost Michael Savage recently on this exact topic, "maybe those old olive growers were right thousands of years ago". People knew back then how disease (STDs) spread and circumcision was one way to combat it.
Men make such a big deal out of their hair and their foreskin. Women don't look down on bald and/or circumscized men - FYI.
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Regular
Posts: 86
Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Has there been a suggestion that circumcision be used as an HIV preventitive device? I think that would be silly.
And abstinence, though ideal, is an unrealistic expectation. After all, we are human beings and it is in our nature to be sexual creatures. if abstience was a viable goal, there would be no AIDS.
To quote Dorothy from the Golden Girls: "Condoms, Rose! Condoms! Condoms! Condoms!" | |
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| yogabear - 2006-12-18 3:45 PM
Has there been a suggestion that circumcision be used as an HIV preventitive device? I think that would be silly.
And abstinence, though ideal, is an unrealistic expectation. After all, we are human beings and it is in our nature to be sexual creatures. if abstience was a viable goal, there would be no AIDS.
To quote Dorothy from the Golden Girls: "Condoms, Rose! Condoms! Condoms! Condoms!"
Condoms for sure!
Condoms are GREAT!
You can find the one that fits and away we go!
Just as long as you use them properly, that is to wear while having intercourse, I've never had any unforseen consequences.
Of course, i do already have four children, but then again, my boss has six.
Condoms, For the Win!
Edited by SCThornley 2006-12-18 4:14 PM
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Location: London, England | Hi Steven,
Do you think we could market 'Yogadoms'-condoms with a yogic slant-maybe tumeric flavour or wiith a shiva's trident-you know the kind of thing
Nick | |
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| Nick - 2006-12-18 4:33 PM
Hi Steven,
Do you think we could market 'Yogadoms'-condoms with a yogic slant-maybe tumeric flavour or wiith a shiva's trident-you know the kind of thing
Nick
WOOT!
Just as long as they came in different shapes and sizes, for the Sivalingam man in us all
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Location: London, England | Hey,
Absolutely-none of this one size fits all nonsense
Nick | |
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| yogabear - 2006-12-18 3:45 PM
Has there been a suggestion that circumcision be used as an HIV preventitive device? I think that would be silly.
And abstinence, though ideal, is an unrealistic expectation. After all, we are human beings and it is in our nature to be sexual creatures. if abstience was a viable goal, there would be no AIDS.
To quote Dorothy from the Golden Girls: "Condoms, Rose! Condoms! Condoms! Condoms!"
Those silly scientists and medical doctors come up with dumbest ideas, don't they? Do people understand there is no vaccine for HIV? You're asking people that screw (sorry for the awful word but its fitting) their daughters to use condoms and/or practice abstinence?
What's the alternative? Actually, abstinence never killed anyone. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
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What's the alternative? Actually, abstinence never killed anyone.
In spite of the millions of teenage boys asserting vigorously to teenage girls that it might...  | |
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| *Fifi* - 2006-12-18 6:06 PM
yogabear - 2006-12-18 3:45 PM
Has there been a suggestion that circumcision be used as an HIV preventitive device? I think that would be silly.
And abstinence, though ideal, is an unrealistic expectation. After all, we are human beings and it is in our nature to be sexual creatures. if abstience was a viable goal, there would be no AIDS.
To quote Dorothy from the Golden Girls: "Condoms, Rose! Condoms! Condoms! Condoms!"
Those silly scientists and medical doctors come up with dumbest ideas, don't they? Do people understand there is no vaccine for HIV? You're asking people that screw (sorry for the awful word but its fitting ) their daughters to use condoms and/or practice abstinence?
What's the alternative? Actually, abstinence never killed anyone.
In the case of those that screw their daughter's, I'm asking that those have their genitalia removed, have their eyes and limbs removed and have them starve to death. | |
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Location: London, England | Hi all,
I would like to say that I wasn't recommending abstinence-but it is part of the triad of AIDS prevention, so it has to be mentioned, even though it's completetely impractical.
What I found really disturbing is that apparently some sections of the gay community have been lobbying to have the bath houses in San Franscisco re-opened-people's memories are way too short-absolutely incredible.
Nick | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Steven,
'In the case of those that screw their daughter's, I'm asking that those have their genitalia removed, have their eyes and limbs removed and have them starve to death.'
I'm with you on this one-but I think for sex offenders there is a better way-you introduce a tumour into the pain centres in the brain-as the tumour grows, then the individidual suffers every kind of pain that has ever been experienced by every individual-all at once-so it's kind of like what you recommend, but infinitely worse-how does that grab you-scares me, but I think it's appropiate
Nick | |
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| Wow, Nick! If there was a challenge for who could come up with the best torture idea I think you'd win. The brain tumor in the pain center of the brain is very creative. The best I could some up with is a polodium california roll. Oops, someone already did that. I agree child molesters should be tortured. Period. Oh, wait, someone will write in and tell us there's no such thing as child molesters and we're being overly sensitive. Fooey!
How come we don't teach people about safe cigarette smoking yet we believe there's such a thing as safe sex? | |
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Location: London, England | Hi Fifi,
Or, even better, you could keep them alive for ever, but just put electrodes in the pain centres-I wasn't cut out for this yoga teaching lark, need to go and live in a country with capital punishment
Nick | |
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| Nick - 2006-12-21 3:58 AM
Hi Fifi,
Or, even better, you could keep them alive for ever, but just put electrodes in the pain centres-I wasn't cut out for this yoga teaching lark, need to go and live in a country with capital punishment
Nick
A bit of American History...
One of the very first buildings to be built by the Federal government in the New USA was......
......
...........
A prison. | |
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| Hello dear ones,
I read the first six pages of this thread, then skipped to the 8th, before I entirely forgot my thoughts.
I was interested in this thread because I have heard the news about the circumcision study findings that seem to conclude the practice can help stop the spread of AIDs. When my boys were born, 16 and 18 years ago, I chose for them not to be circumcised. My thinking was quite simple. At the time, there were no reputed medical benefits to being circumcised, so why would I let someone hurt my little baby for no reason? (I think it is very easy for adults to discount an infant's pain, just like we tend to discount animals pain, esp in medical research, but that is another thread.) People commonly said at that time, oh, it doesn't hurt the baby, they don't have developed enough nerve endings... but then why does the baby cry?
I was always a bit nervous about my decision though, because my husband, who is Vietnamese, is not circumcised, and if I hadn't objected, he probably would have had it done to our sons. I think the reasoning he gave was that they would fit in with their peers. I worried that I just didn't understand, as a female with mostly tucked away parts, how important that was to a boy growing up. But mama bear won out, no one was going to hurt my baby! I get a cringe and a pange of guilt when I read about new benefits of circumcision, because my deicision not to circumcise was at its core, selfish. I did not want to experience my infant experiencing pain. I have found over the years that the "news" of benefits dies down again into, well, it is really just a personal choice.
About cleanliness: My husband was the first uncircumsized man I had been with. Up til then, I had always thought men looked a little unfinished. My first thought when I saw my husband's was, "Oh, god did finish them off : )" Really, my very first thought. I also think that he has a beautiful penis. My thoughts have in no way been influenced by his performance, trust me!
And he is always beautifully clean, the foreskin is so soft and pretty. And then there is that surprise in there- what more could one want? So there you go, my 2 cents on that. (BTW, my boys have never felt different do to not being circumsized, and have always appreicated that mommy did not want to hurt them, so it has turned out ok, whew!)
About aid to Africa- has anyone checked out Kiva.org? You can loan money pretty directly to individuals and groups in Africa and a few other countries, and you can fund these loans with only $25 at a time- very, very satisfying for this donor, and I never give any money away to charities.
Oh, I almost forgot. There is one downside to abstinence that I don't think has been mentioned. Do you know when, sometimes when you have sex, and you think, yeah, this is making love? Not all the time, not all the most exciting times, certainly not the tedious times (girls : )), but sometimes I really get the feeling that we are, literally, creating love.
Best wishes and warm regards,
Ellen
ps I am glad, tourist, when you resist those urges to close it down. I admire the balance and clearness it takes to be a moderator, and that you resist the temptation to mold the threads with your great powers : ) xox
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| ellen - I can perfectly visualize you and I in a group for women (and I can clearly see which of my friends would be there) having an amazing discussion about all sorts of important and interesting things. I feel like if I met you we would be like old friends in an eye blink
My son is 26 and among his friends (the last time I felt ok about asking) there is about a 50/50 chance they were or were not circumcised. So "looking like their peers" is moot. Since about 1982 or so, the government (I am in Canada) no longer pays for the procedure so parents have to put some thought and money into it if they want it done. | |
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| the 'stopping the spread of aids' thing is completely bunk. the study has been demonstrated to be completely false and ultimately fabricated. | |
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| zoebird - 2007-01-06 11:43 PM
the 'stopping the spread of aids' thing is completely bunk. the study has been demonstrated to be completely false and ultimately fabricated.
So, what's the point of promoting circumcision? | |
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| i have no clue, honestly.
i see no benefit in circumcision from a health perspective unless absolutely necessary (this is that caveat for that exception to the rule that someone can come up with). | |
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| tourist - 2007-01-06 3:17 PM
ellen - I can perfectly visualize you and I in a group for women (and I can clearly see which of my friends would be there ) having an amazing discussion about all sorts of important and interesting things. I feel like if I met you we would be like old friends in an eye blink
Me-too-you, Glenda. We'd have to meet at your house!
My son is 26 and among his friends (the last time I felt ok about asking) there is about a 50/50 chance they were or were not circumcised.
Ok, to prevent another dog debalacle... When I first read this post, I thought, oh man, what a gutsy woman asking all her son's friends if they are circumcised! and fully understanding and nodding my head about the "the last time I felt ok about asking..." Then later, I got to thinking about it... wouldn't it be easier to just ask her son??? Jesus Glenda, I'm going to have to give myself a 24 hour cool down period before I act on your advice!
xoxellen | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| I knew I should have clarified that part! Yes, the last time I asked my son. I am sure he would have no trouble answering that question now but I would not be comfortable asking it I also work in a daycare centre with infants and toddlers and around here at least, it still seems to be about 50/50. Working class, less education folk tend to go with what they see as traditional and have it done. More education, more "alternate lifestyle" tend to not. | |
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| I'm circumcised and a virgin.
Seems to me people should stop beating around the bush on this issue. Unless there is a miracle cure discovered, abstinence is the ONLY foolproof option.
Otherwise, if this is true, who knew that circumcision was more than just vanity!  | |
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| Hi Ellen and Drizzt.
Thanks for openly sharing your views. When I started this thread it was with the genuine desire to highlight what I thought was interesting news from the scientific community.
Abstinence is, indeed, the only foolproof method, but possibly not entirely the answer when you consider that the spread of AIDS in Africa is now so wide-spread that many are born with it so this would mean a sizeable chunk of the populace never reproducing. Of course, this would address areas of over-population and so starvation, poverty, etc but that's entirely another debate and one that skirts the dangerous area of eugenics.
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| Abstinence from sex won't prevent people catching AIDS from dirty needles and contaminated blood either...
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| Absolutely.
It's not always the case, but many diseases become less fatal over time. Many virus' adapt their virulence down as it's not in the bug's interest to kill the host (for the most part). I seem to remember reading a scientific paper a while ago that suggests this may be happening with HIV.
Fee | |
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| Yes, and there is not one HIV either.
The strain in Sub Sahara Africa is very different to the strain found in Eastern Europe for Example.
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| circumcision prevents aids:
that means only uncut men get aids because the skin splits. A tight cut man will also experience tears because there is lack of skin movement but his circumsized status protects him from getting aids.
I thought people get aids from having sex with aids infected people. cut or uncut.
circumcision prevents cervical cancer.
That means jewish women should zero cervical cancer rates. Oh they do still suffer from cervical cancer even tho they have always cut their men. Oh their cancer is from other sources. Perhaps all those women who had cancer and had uncut partners may have got their cancer from other sources too!
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