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| A couple weeks ago a student came to me before class and said that 'everyone' thought my class was way too fast. Since it is a 'flow' class the class goes a little faster than a non-flow class, but still, I didn't believe I was really going very fast. In fact, I go slower than most flow classes I've taken before...and I go much slower than any ashtanga class I've taken. I always make sure to do long child's poses during class and a starting meditation and a generous savasana.
So, I don't know. I want students to be able to be open with me and tell me about the class, but there was something mean spirited about this woman. She even said that she speaks to the other students and they all say my class is not good and very fast. Believe it or not I heard her gossiping about me to another student when I left the building. Do I deserve this?
Usually I get compliments on my classes..I try my best, study a lot, but maybe that's not good enough. I feel like I'm constantly trying my best, getting them props and smiling and saying 'positive' things.
I feel like they don't just dislike the class, but they dislike me personally. I'm way too sensitive for this stuff....I wish I were more thick skinned. Apparently they miss their previous instructor.
The strange thing is that she only confirmed what I already thought about the group, that they hadn't accepted me and were judging me. It's very hard to relax and teach in that environment.
So now I'll probably go slower. I'm glad I know that I was going to fast...even for a flow class, but I wish I didn't feel so disliked.
Edited by shalamOM 2007-06-07 10:18 PM
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| Dear ShalamOM:
How will you judge or estimate whether your class is slow, or fast, or correct speed? | |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-06-07 10:43 PM
Dear ShalamOM:
How will you judge or estimate whether your class is slow, or fast, or correct speed?
Honestly, I don't know. When I go more slowly the students seem to be irritated. When I switch poses more frequently I get criticized as well.
It's mostly this one group though...They seem like they just don't like me as a person...and this woman only confirms that. It makes me want to switch jobs to one where I'm completely not in the spotlight. I think I'll get out of this profession soon and just do yoga at home....where nobody can tell me I go too fast or too slow or whatever (sorry for sounding so pathetic and cowardly). | |
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| Hi shalamOM
You can't control other's attitudes, only your own. Some students will love you and some won't, that's life...
The only way you will know if this person's opinions reflect the class is to ask the class. I would start (or end) the next class by telling them:
"I have received some feedback on the speed of the class and am interested in what the rest of you think?"
You may even find that some think you are too slow. At the end of the day you need to adjust to the majority of the students not the minority.
Jonathon
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| You posted here because you want advice, right? Or do you just want to voice your complaints and unburden your heart? I'm not being mean or difficult, because I consider that a reasonable question. Many people post their complaints about things but when they receive well-meaning and often constructive advice, they reject it because it continues to threaten the beliefs they have put into place that define who they are. I just want to put those thoughts out there first before I continue with my reply, so you understand where I'm coming from. If you don't want my comments in that light, then please, the option is there for you not to continue to read. But please remember, all that I'm going to say is totally honest and true as I see it, especially having going through a lot of this before myself.  shalamOM - 2007-06-07 10:15 PM A couple weeks ago a student came to me before class and said that 'everyone' thought my class was way too fast. The student's opinion, OK. Since it is a 'flow' class the class goes a little faster than a non-flow class, but still, I didn't believe I was really going very fast. Your belief here. Fine. If it is really true, stick with it and don't be threatened by someone else's. In fact, I go slower than most flow classes I've taken before...and I go much slower than any ashtanga class I've taken. I always make sure to do long child's poses during class and a starting meditation and a generous savasana. Getting defensive here. Get rid of it. Are you a good teacher? Being a good teacher does mean being open to your students' thoughts and suggestions, but not being threatened by them, allowing them to undermine your confidence. So, I don't know. Exactly. Go back to your self, your own practice, deep inside, and figure out what you DO know. I want students to be able to be open with me and tell me about the class, ...proper attitude... but there was something mean spirited about this woman. ... improper attitude... Do you get it yet? It's not your teaching style that's being the ruin of you here (exaggeration with the use of the word "ruin", but still), but your self-confidence and attitude about yourself that's destroying you. I truly believe you cannot be a good teacher, or even a teacher, of any subject matter, if you have self-doubt, regardless of how well-versed you are in your subject matter. It's not about skill. It's about YOU. Go back to the basics and ask yourself why you teacher. I would guess it's the same answer that we all would give, because we love yoga and want to share that with everyone. Teach from that place and that place alone. Yeah, sure, you need skill and knowledge and all that, but the love you have for yoga, that should be your driving force. No one can take that away from you. Not even the most mean-spirited seeming students (who btw STILL come to your classes) can it take away. ShalamOM, you try SOOOO hard! Loving yoga isn't something that you need to work hard at, is it? Then teaching it should be just as effortless. om shanti, shanti, shanti-i May you find peace within yourself. | |
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| shalamOM - 2007-06-07 10:47 PM
kulkarnn - 2007-06-07 10:43 PM
Dear ShalamOM:
How will you judge or estimate whether your class is slow, or fast, or correct speed?
Honestly, I don't know. When I go more slowly the students seem to be irritated. When I switch poses more frequently I get criticized as well.
=====> Never mind. Because there is not such a thing as correct speed of a Group Class. In group, there are slow, medium and fast paced students. So, you can not be all in one at one time. You decide one, then declare them that you are going to go at this speed. And, then if they want different thing, they should take your private class.
It's mostly this one group though...They seem like they just don't like me as a person...and this woman only confirms that. It makes me want to switch jobs to one where I'm completely not in the spotlight. I think I'll get out of this profession soon and just do yoga at home....where nobody can tell me I go too fast or too slow or whatever (sorry for sounding so pathetic and cowardly ).
===> Getting out of profession? That is your choice. But, if you want to work with it, there are ways to go.
===> If you want to learn 'How to handle very difficult Yoga Students and keep your Sanity', come to VA and take few TT lessons with me!!!!!! I mean, you can be as difficult as you want to me.
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| I think jonnie gave you an excellent advice; talking to the entire class about this.
I don't teach yoga, but a couple of years ago I had a group of horse owners who I instructed in how to improve the communication and leadership with their horse. I recieved critique from a member of this group and according to her everyone felt the same way that she did. When I talked to the entire group, it turned out that non of the other members agreed with her and she later apologized for exaderating.
It's easy to critique someone and claim to have a group of people on your side when that group isn't around. Talk to the class and find out if there is anything to her statement or if she's all talk and no show.
I hope that it works out for the best!
/Jenny | |
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| Thanks for the helpful replies Kulkarnn and Orange Mat.
I am considering not being a yoga instructor anymore. It's not just that there are difficult students that I feel so uncomfortable with, but it's the position of being up there in front of so many people, many of whom are 'sizing' you up.
Some of my students love my teaching and apparently some really dislike it. The ones who dislike my teaching seem to dislike me on a personal level and the ones who love my teaching seem to like me on a personal level. I suppose a better and stronger person could just detach from all these opinions, but I cannot. They do affect me, and since I have very strong intuition about people I can usually sense if somebody likes me or not without their even having to say anything.
The thing that I will regret is that I truly love yoga and I believe my purpose is to heal in some form or another, but teaching group classes feels wrong. There is an element of performance in group teaching and I know that I am not a performer. I was always the kid in class who was too shy to raise her hand even when she knew the answer.
I've been to yoga studios and I've overheard conversations at the gym and that's what the students talk about, which teachers they like and which teachers are 'bad'. These conversations are fun and pass the time for the members. I just don't want to be the subject of these conversations....Maybe that makes me a 'weak' person or somebody who is not at peace, but I just don't.
I wonder why so many people seem to even want to give me their opinion of my teaching or even of me after class. It is something I have never done and wouldn't feel comfortable doing. When I'm the student I realize that the individual personality of the instructor comes through in how they present yoga. Most instructors are very outgoing and cheery people, but I am not. I am more quiet, thoughtful and even tempered. This is probably not what people expect from an instructor.
So sorry, just unloading my thoughts and feelings. My friends and family of course think I'm great (a little biased of course) and don't want me to quit, but it is really up to me.
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| Maybe just teach private one on ones then.
That way most of these issues will be solved.
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| Isola - 2007-06-08 8:27 AM
I think jonnie gave you an excellent advice; talking to the entire class about this.
I don't teach yoga, but a couple of years ago I had a group of horse owners who I instructed in how to improve the communication and leadership with their horse. I recieved critique from a member of this group and according to her everyone felt the same way that she did. When I talked to the entire group, it turned out that non of the other members agreed with her and she later apologized for exaderating.
It's easy to critique someone and claim to have a group of people on your side when that group isn't around. Talk to the class and find out if there is anything to her statement or if she's all talk and no show.
I hope that it works out for the best!
/Jenny
Well I do suspect this person is exaggerating as well. She doesn't seem very social in class so how would she know what everyone else is thinking about the class. Sometimes I can be so naive about people.
I've been told by many people that they tried yoga, but then didn't continue with it because the instructor went so slowly. I've experimented with different speeds and it is obvious to me which students enjoy the slower classes and which enjoy the more vigorous classes.
I will try talking to this class. Hopefully they'll talk. Usually at the beginning of class I ask everyone how they are doing and if there are any requests. These people don't really say anything and they all look sort of frustrated/irritated/annoyed. It's not just my imagination because I don't experience this at another place where I work; The people there are friendly, open and warm. The occasional negative person doesn't bother me there because overall the people are warm and kind.
I hope that they aren't expecting too much from yoga, that their yoga class and yoga teacher will erase all their stress? I just can't perform miracles. If that's what some of them expect then I will always disappoint.
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| jonnie - 2007-06-08 9:05 AM
Maybe just teach private one on ones then.
That way most of these issues will be solved.
That's a very good idea. I guess I just need to find people who want me to teach them. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | shalamOM - 2007-06-08 9:09 AM jonnie - 2007-06-08 9:05 AM Maybe just teach private one on ones then. That way most of these issues will be solved. That's a very good idea. I guess I just need to find people who want me to teach them. Wait, be patient and let the universe unravel the possibilities. | |
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| Hey ShalamOM,
The problem here is:
I think you have lost the control of the class. The next time someone tells you, you are going too fast, you should recommend that they try a different class!
The students do not conduct the class, you do. Don't be asking for suggestions. You tell them we are doing backbends today. Period..
When students move too slow, I say move faster!
*actually what I say is: unlike you are nursing an injury or not feeling well, try to keep up with the pace of the class. They have to learn to trust that you will take the pace down and counterpose when it is time to do that.
I teach Flow too. And, I know exactly what you are talking about. I used to be more like you. I used to really take things more personal.
You can't keep changing your style to suit the class. Student must learn to modify (take extra breath, slow themselves down, do child, whatever it takes) If it is a vinyasa style class, sometimes you should say, "if you're tired, go right to downdog or child" But do not change!
Student will come to you, because they are expecting a certain style. If you change it all the time, they will not know what to expect..
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Expert Yogi
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| Replacing a popular teacher would not be an easy thing to do. Students get attached to an individual teacher and like many of us, don't much like change. I have had students go to other teachers and come back to me and while it is flattering to think they "like" me more, I feel a bit sad that they didn't take the opportunity to challenge themselves and continue with the teacher they found to be "too hard." OTOH, sometimes it is just not the right time for them to do this and it is wonderful that I am available for them to come to.
You could ask the class what they like and dislike or you could adjust the way you teach or you could continue and see what happens. As someone said, they are still coming to class, so that is a good thing. Perhaps they didn't know that they collectively needed this change in order to continue their growth in yoga. Do you talk much about philosophy before you begin asana? you could add a short story about something unrelated that discusses the idea that everything happens for a reason, whether we know it or not at the time. | |
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| Greetings,
One thought I might add in this thread... After working with patients for 25 years, trying to be a good partner in their health and well-being, and seeing how they often sabotage themselves, I've come to the understanding that how we think about those we are trying to help is important. I've come to assume that each person is doing the very best they can, given their circumstances and capacities. Assuming that we are each doing our best day to day, moment to moment, puts the responsibility on the student/patient to make progress. "I know this may be difficult for you, but we make progress each day as long as our efforts are sincere and good hearted. I'm sure you will also...." If saying this is comfortable for you, then looking in their eye for that spark of unity we acknowledge with "Namaste" and a smile will show that there is much more ahead for them if they are true seekers. People reveal themselves and teaching arises in those moments, particularly if we can reveal ourself in return.
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| shalamOM - 2007-06-08 8:32 AM Thanks for the helpful replies Kulkarnn and Orange Mat. You're very welcome. Honestly, I was a bit concerned that you would take offense to my reply, since you were asking how to deal with your difficult students, and instead of confirming that the problem lies with them, in essence I told you it was your issue!  But I'm pleased you understood where I was coming from. Like I said, I've had these same exact struggles, and have only recently learned how to go about conquering them. By no means am I completely "cured" -- it's totally an ongoing process. That's why having community (such as this forum) is so important, so that we can continue to remind each other of the right attitudes to have, because it is so easy to forget. I remember you posted a while back (yes, my memory is like that, certain details do stick with me) that you said that you aren't "officially" certified as a yoga teacher, and that you were considering going for a YA-approved training just for the closure aspect of having that piece of paper. Whether you do or not, that's totally up to you, but maybe just being in the company of other teachers in training might be a good environment for you, in light of your current concerns and issues from your students. Just the "support group" aspect of it might be what you've been missing all this while, who knows? Personally, I think Neel's offer for a training on how to deal with difficult yoga students would be fabulous, and as much as the offer might've been tongue-in-cheek, that is the perspective one does learn how to deal with when going through an intensive teacher training. I really suggest you think about it. You can't learn peace of mind from a book, nor just from dealing with difficult students. You also need to have a teacher and be within the company of other individuals like yourself. I've been to yoga studios and I've overheard conversations at the gym and that's what the students talk about, which teachers they like and which teachers are 'bad'. Just one question: is your point to say that this talk goes on at yoga studios as well, or only at gyms? Because if the catty atmosphere is only at gyms in your experience, then you know the answer already. I've been working as a personal trainer for over five years, yet I've never been employed at a gym as a trainer. From day one, I wanted to work privately with clients in a setting that couldn't contribute to sabotaging anyone involved, nor inspire any sense of competition. Because of that, I've had a very small client base over the years, pretty much only from word of mouth, but I've been pleased with myself that I could stay authentic to myself within the realm of fitness. Good thing I haven't had to pay any serious bills with my income.  Then obviously I also agree with Jonnie's suggestion to work privately with yoga students, since one-on-one is my background. Seems to me that you've got the same bug I've always had, which is why up until recently I would only limit myself to individual clients: how can you be everything each of your students wants you to be, all at once, and all the time? It just can't happen. For the nine people you make happy, the tenth will be miserable, if not more. Have you failed then? Why don't the nine, or even only one, if that's the case, count? Why does a negative accomplishment (hell of an oxymoron if I ever heard of one!) count for more than a positive one? I really believe taking part in a yoga teacher training, a really GOOD teacher training, will help you learn to address these issues within yourself. My group of 16 women these past nine months was like group therapy for us in that respect. We all grew. We all discovered there is a road leading to peace that is not out of our reach. And we all learned how to teach a pretty decent vinyasa class.  PS -- Where do you live? The next training at my studio is starting in September. PM me if you want the info. | |
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| You can go two ways, I think. You can leave and teach someplace else if you truly believe this place is toxic. I think listening to the inner voice is important. And I have left someplace for that very reason and I'm thrilled with that choice.
Or, you can teach they way you want to and be honest with your yoga. To some extant I can see changing the pace if the general population of the class wants it, and you should ask. But, you can't change it so much that you're not teaching YOUR yoga. I teach a flow style also and if I had to suddenly teach restorative, I would not be happy. I sub'd for a restorative class, and while it was fine to sub it, it was not my style and there is no way I'd teach it regularly.
If you are teaching YOUR yoga and some people don't like it, tough toenails! I'd def offer the advice to the complaining student to find another teacher. That's a totally vaild point and not the least bit rude. None of us can meet every single person's needs.
BTW-don't you have a coordinator giving you feedback? If you're coordinator is happy with you, then don't worry about the few who are problems. Let them leave.
But, I keep coming back to the fact that you don't like this place. Do you have options to work at another facility? | |
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| TampaEric - 2007-06-08 10:00 AM
Hey ShalamOM,
The problem here is:
I think you have lost the control of the class. The next time someone tells you, you are going too fast, you should recommend that they try a different class!
I should have done that, but I was 'trying' not to be offensive. I did try to explain that this is a 'flow' class as stated on the schedule and that flow classes are faster. She said that I'm the fastest yoga instructor there, however she's only taken my flow class and this is the only flow class offered at this place...That's why it's the faster class. Then she told me that I go so fast that she is unable to breath (complete exaggeration). I am unable to run for two minutes without getting out of breath so I know that my flow class isn't going that fast.
The students do not conduct the class, you do. Don't be asking for suggestions. You tell them we are doing backbends today. Period..
When students move too slow, I say move faster!
*actually what I say is: unlike you are nursing an injury or not feeling well, try to keep up with the pace of the class. They have to learn to trust that you will take the pace down and counterpose when it is time to do that.
I told this class many times that they can take rest if they want to or use the wall for support on balancing poses, but none of them want to. They don't even want to use blocks. Part of teaching a good flow class IMO is challenging the students...In this large class there are some very fit and young people. I want to challenge these people too.
I teach Flow too. And, I know exactly what you are talking about. I used to be more like you. I used to really take things more personal.
You can't keep changing your style to suit the class. Student must learn to modify (take extra breath, slow themselves down, do child, whatever it takes) If it is a vinyasa style class, sometimes you should say, "if you're tired, go right to downdog or child" But do not change!
Student will come to you, because they are expecting a certain style. If you change it all the time, they will not know what to expect..
Well I came in there to teach a flow/vinyasa style class because that is what's on the schedule, but I'm wondering if the previous instructor didn't really teach a typical flow class as taught in a studio. I might just teach a regular yoga class instead of 'flow' if I find out that's what the people want.
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| tourist - 2007-06-08 10:08 AM
Replacing a popular teacher would not be an easy thing to do. Students get attached to an individual teacher and like many of us, don't much like change. I have had students go to other teachers and come back to me and while it is flattering to think they "like" me more, I feel a bit sad that they didn't take the opportunity to challenge themselves and continue with the teacher they found to be "too hard." OTOH, sometimes it is just not the right time for them to do this and it is wonderful that I am available for them to come to.
I know this teacher was popular because I've heard students saying they wish she hadn't moved away. I asked one of the students what kind of class she taught and the student just said 'challenging'. As for being challenging, I do think I focus a little more on strength. I became imbalanced from doing yoga classes. For a time I was much more flexible than strong. So now as an instructor myself I feel it is important, especially for women to build strength, even if cooling forward bends are more relaxing. Of course I do plenty of forward bends too, but also some strength poses that students might be adverse to.
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| All I can tell you is that based on my experience, I think you should take a stand and not change your style.
Vinyasa flow expresses the grace of prana. The dynamic movements help to wake up kundalini energy, create intense heat and purify.
If you'd like to type (cut and paste) your sequence, I'll take a look at it and give you my honestly opinion.
Best,
Eric
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| Kym - 2007-06-08 1:06 PM
You can go two ways, I think. You can leave and teach someplace else if you truly believe this place is toxic. I think listening to the inner voice is important. And I have left someplace for that very reason and I'm thrilled with that choice.
Toxic is a good word here. Yes, there is definitely something off about this group of people overall. I felt it from the first class I taught at that time and have ever since. Maybe it is almost as if they mistrust me and they don't look particularly happy to be there.
Or, you can teach they way you want to and be honest with your yoga. To some extant I can see changing the pace if the general population of the class wants it, and you should ask. But, you can't change it so much that you're not teaching YOUR yoga. I teach a flow style also and if I had to suddenly teach restorative, I would not be happy. I sub'd for a restorative class, and while it was fine to sub it, it was not my style and there is no way I'd teach it regularly.
Well, part of the reason why I wanted this class was because it was supposed to be flow class. I can easily slow it down and do longer holds, but for some people (if they are beginners), that's actually more difficult.
I have also been incorporating some viniyoga principles which have helped my practice. I usually have the students link joint movement with their breath dynamically before holding it statically. Maybe some students unfamiliar with this might just think I'm going really fast. I don't know. I also think the typical vinyasa of forward bend, chaturanga, downward dog which is pretty standard was too fast for some of the students.
I had them do side plank for a brief duration and gave modifications for that. Somebody in the class actually started laughing in a rude way.
If you are teaching YOUR yoga and some people don't like it, tough toenails! I'd def offer the advice to the complaining student to find another teacher. That's a totally vaild point and not the least bit rude. None of us can meet every single person's needs.
BTW-don't you have a coordinator giving you feedback? If you're coordinator is happy with you, then don't worry about the few who are problems. Let them leave.
But, I keep coming back to the fact that you don't like this place. Do you have options to work at another facility?
My coordinators have been very happy with me, as well as some of my other students. I would like to try and make it work with these people. I wouldn't go so far as to say the place is toxic just yet, but if I keep getting this kind of response then yes, I will have to accept that this place is toxic.
Edited by shalamOM 2007-06-08 2:47 PM
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| Hi,
I am not a teacher, but I have a lot of friends who actually teach yoga. One of whom teach in a gym that I am a member of. I attend her class and also used to go to the teacher who used to teach that class (who left to work someplace else).
My friend also teaches flow, while the previous teacher taught a more traditional hatha kind of class. At first when my friend started teaching, a lot of people starting complaining after class saying that she is different from the previous teacher and that she was inexperienced etc etc. I continued going anyway since I like yoga, whatever the pace. My friend has been here for 3 months, and I realise that the people who attend class have now changed to a younger, fitter crowd who enjoy her style of yoga. She's popular, but just with a different crowd, and I think she is fine with the people who did not enjoy her teaching going somewhere else.
So I just think that if you think you are teaching something valuable to others, why worry that a few people do not appreciate it? Others will, and they will come back. I don't think every yoga teacher is for every student.
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| beyond all of this great advice that you've already received, i would offer one other thing.
some people do discover, once they're teaching, that they no longer want to teach, that they don't like it, or that it wasn't what they wanted or expected. i know that this is most common when people first become teachers (usually fresh out of training), but i also know that there are people who teach for a while and decide that they no longer want to teach.
and with this, there are also those who simply take a break from teaching in order to regain their balance and personal strength/integrity/esteem. that break may last a week or a couple of years or more. who knows? but, ultimately it's about really figuring out who they are and what they want--something we're all continually going through--and whether or not teaching fits into that picture.
so, i think it would be totally appropriate for you to say 'this isn't the place for me' or 'this isn't what i want to do right now' and see what happens. maybe you discover that you have a distinct voice and that you will draw the right people (and that naysayers have no sway over you) or maybe you decide that it is better for you to pour your creativity into another field or direction and keep your yoga practice for yourself alone.
either way, good luck to you! | |
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| Simmi - 2007-06-09 8:13 AM
At first when my friend started teaching, a lot of people starting complaining after class saying that she is different from the previous teacher and that she was inexperienced etc etc.
Maybe that is what some people do then. If they don't like a class or a style they will insult the instructor...I guess that's something you have to deal with as an instructor. This particular woman thought it was okay to insult me to my face. I want people to feel joy when they practice yoga and I can easily change the style of the class. I teach senior yoga, regular hatha yoga, and restorative as well. What I don't appreciate is having students who are frustrated with the style accuse me of being a poor instructor...It's just rude and inaccurate.
If this person were a better/nicer communicator she would have requested a slower paced class which would not have been offensive, but instead she had to insult...."you are the fastest instructor here" "You speed up and I cannot breath at all" "People won't tell you to your face, but your class is too fast" "yoga is not supposed to be fast"
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| zoebird - 2007-06-09 12:00 PM
so, i think it would be totally appropriate for you to say 'this isn't the place for me' or 'this isn't what i want to do right now' and see what happens. maybe you discover that you have a distinct voice and that you will draw the right people (and that naysayers have no sway over you ) or maybe you decide that it is better for you to pour your creativity into another field or direction and keep your yoga practice for yourself alone.
either way, good luck to you!
Thanks Zoe. I guess I've always had this strange idea that yoga is about being a better person and the people who come to class are going to at least attempt to be decent and kind.
I guess it is just shocking to witness mature adults get so frustrated with yoga and then to kind of take out their frustration on the instructor. I've seen people get angry and frustrated in basic poses like forward bends because their legs were bent. For these people using a strap or bending their legs or sitting up on a blanket just makes them more angry. Where is the peace in that? Why are they bothering to practice yoga in the first place?
I purposely have taken some classes such as kickboxing just to experience what it is like to be a beginner at something. And yes, you do feel a little awkward and you do see other experienced students doing the moves with relative ease, but who cares? It makes no sense to me to blame the instructor or get angry. Sometimes challenge is okay, right? | |
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| well, first, yoga is a healing discipline--so it's going to attract the people who need the most healing. and btw, it attracted me, so i'm included!
beyond this, these are their reactions to things based on their expectations and illusions--their maya. it's entirely ok for them to have these reactions, and as a teacher, we can point out that these reactions are illusions. we can also teach to take the ego out of the practice.
and we must remind ourselves that we are not responsible for these reactions and the outcomes of them (gossiping about us, or whatever). sometimes, it's just their ego running into a really stark mirror, and that has nothing to do with us.
i ran into that recently. i met a woman who has been "practicing yoga for three year!" (she said with great pride and egotism) whose downward dog i corrected. she said "but that feels strange!" and i said "yes, sometimes the correct alignment feels strange." (gentle tone, etc). and she stormed out. How dare I tell her that her posture was wrong!
well, she complained to the boss, who asked me to "watch my tone." and i said "ok" and brushed it off. it wasn't my tone (i asked another student about it), it was her ego (the other student was a teacher and has seen this happen before with this student.). so, i could let it go.
we can allow people to have their egos, you know? we all have our stuff. i can accept that sometimes that stuff is going to come pouring out in my direction.
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| What is meant here by slow? Fast? These are relative terms. And what you think is slow and what the student thinks is slow - may or may not be that far apart?
I know when I say a teacher is too fast - it is because I feel rushed. I think of timing in yoga in terms of breath count. I have been taught that most movements should last a minimum of 5 seconds and should be linked to an inhale or an exhale. In the tradition of Krishnamacharya it is actually encouraged that the breath be as long as possible.
Most people might think of this as slow - but ironically the slower the movement the more strengthening because momentum is removed from the equation.
The "faster" the class the more like aerobics which is not why I go to yoga. I go into a resting pose when I have lost my breath - meaning I can no longer link the breath with the movement.
Clearly not everyone practices the asanas in this manner nor teaches in this manner.
Vic | |
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| I'd thought I'd give an update...
I took a flow class this past weekend and a shortened ashtanga class by experienced instructors and both classes were WAY too fast for me. I know that my flow class couldn't have been going at the speed that this woman was claiming since I couldn't even keep up with these average vinyasa classes.
This woman probably never took a typical flow class and was just completely unfamilar with the style. I also teach a gentle yoga, seniors and regular hatha so my flow class is the most vigorous of the bunch.
I'm going to go more slowly even if certain students who like flow will be disappointed (and there are a good number who enjoy flow). Part of my reason for deciding to do this is that flow classes are much more difficult to teach IMO. Why should I put out all that extra effort to create a nice flow class if certain students are just going to get verbally abusive because of it?
If I start working in a studio where there are more experienced and open minded students I might teach a true 'flow' class again, but until then I won't. There are just too many beginners who take flow when they shouldn't in some of these gyms. In a good studio a student will be advised to start with a beginner or regular hatha class before going on to flow classes.
One thing I've noticed is that Americans seem to really love flow classes, but the Asian and Indian students seem to dislike it. This class which hated the flow style had many asian and indian people in it and the woman who got angry at me was a filipina. It is a learning experience!
I want to thank everyone for their great sage advice. I think no matter how many years I teach yoga or trainings I go through I'll always feel like a beginner in some ways. It's challenging!
Edited by shalamOM 2007-06-13 11:16 AM
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| shalamOM - 2007-06-13 11:08 AM
One thing I've noticed is that Americans seem to really love flow classes, but the Asian and Indian students seem to dislike it. This class which hated the flow style had many asian and indian people in it and the woman who got angry at me was a filipina. It is a learning experience!
===> Thanks for telling this. Flow is athletic. And, Americans are more athletic, no doubt. And, the static poses require more focus of mind and relate more to the definition of Yoga than flow. | |
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| shalamOM - 2007-06-13 11:08 AM I'm going to go more slowly even if certain students who like flow will be disappointed (and there are a good number who enjoy flow). Part of my reason for deciding to do this is that flow classes are much more difficult to teach IMO. Good for you! Personally, I think the slower a class moves from pose to pose, or rather, the longer the holds of poses between transitions, the harder the class. If you're moving quickly from asana to asana, just "passing through" as it were, are you really practicing yoga? How much mindfulness can there be in a pose that you barely hold for one breath? One thing I meant to ask, and forgive me if you mentioned this but I didn't see it, is what is the level of this flow class that you teach? Mixed? Level 1? I know what you mean about flow classes being more challenging to teach, which is why I opted to teach a level 1 class at the gym where I teach. Teaching poses is one thing. Teaching transitions is another. The pose you transition to isn't the sole goal. The transition must be kept in "asana mode" as well (i.e. maintaining sthira and sukha). Or else, as it has been so aptly put, it just becomes an aerobics class. Glad to hear from you again. | |
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| OrangeMat - 2007-06-13 11:39 AM
Good for you! Personally, I think the slower a class moves from pose to pose, or rather, the longer the holds of poses between transitions, the harder the class. If you're moving quickly from asana to asana, just "passing through" as it were, are you really practicing yoga? How much mindfulness can there be in a pose that you barely hold for one breath?
One breath! No, I would never teach a class that fast. Actually, the holds I do in a flow class are about the same as any regular hatha class, about 5-10 breaths at minimum, sometimes much more depending on the asana. However, that is only an estimate because everyone breaths at a different rate. The only part that may seem fast is the 'vinyasa' part (although I guess the whole thing is vinyasa) where we go down in chataranga in one slow long breath and then up in cobra on another long slow breath and then to downward dog, all done slowly. The last part of the class isn't flow, but just restorative postures and slow sitting postures.
One thing I meant to ask, and forgive me if you mentioned this but I didn't see it, is what is the level of this flow class that you teach? Mixed? Level 1? I know what you mean about flow classes being more challenging to teach, which is why I opted to teach a level 1 class at the gym where I teach. Teaching poses is one thing. Teaching transitions is another. The pose you transition to isn't the sole goal. The transition must be kept in "asana mode" as well (i.e. maintaining sthira and sukha). Or else, as it has been so aptly put, it just becomes an aerobics class. Glad to hear from you again.
All the classes I teach are VERY mixed, from advanced students to beginners. I always teach a fairly beginner level class for that reason, but I give 'options' for the more advanced students. The advanced students really enjoy the options, but I can tell that the beginners get irritated when I give options because they are unable to take it. I always make sure to say that it is just an option and not to take it if it doesn't 'feel' right to you, but they still get irritated.
In my flow classes I focus on alignment and transitions more than in a typical flow class because I don't feel comfortable leaving those things out. The fact of the matter is that beginners really shouldn't take true flow classes. It's not that flow classes are advanced...Some people never like flow. It's just that there needs to be a certain level of fitness and familiarity with the positions. When I've gotten out of shape going right into a flow class is just asking for problems.
One thing I'm realizing at this location is that many people take yoga classes instead of other forms of exercise offered because they expect it to be 'easier'. They specifically take yoga because they don't want to be challenged very much. Of course this isn't true for everyone, but I have noticed this trend. I think when people have an expectation that they won't be challenged they will get irritated if the yoga class doesn't prove to be 'easy' for them. Irritation is okay. Aggression and nastiness is not!
Edited by shalamOM 2007-06-13 1:02 PM
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| actually, flow can be quite good at focusing the mind, if one is taking each moment individually, adn the micromoments in those moments individually--striving to be present. so many people take flow as being "pose-pose-pose" rather than recognizing that it's pose, transition, transition transition transition pose transition transition transition transition. in fact, postures are only held for a moment or less than a moment in vinyasa, and the transitions are poses in and of themselves. the transitions are important.
following the ida of xeno's paradox--you can cut up the transitions a zillion times and ultimately the whole thing is simply the breath and movement and nothing else. no poses, no transitions, just breathing. it's pretty cool.
but, i completely agree that most flow classes aren't this and that many people need non-flow classes to learn the alignment of the postures first, then the alignment of transitions, and then they can get into vinyasa. | |
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| just some ideas about flow vs. static..
I can see how logic would say, first learn the alignment and then take a flow, but I've found that new students aren't really ready to do full posture and the pace of the flow class is nice because they don't spend too long in a posture. I don't know any 1st timeres who walked into a yoga studio and did warrior I with their thigh horizontal. So, why should they spend an extended period of time as a newbie trying something that more than likely isn't possible today.
As their practice develops, they start to refine the posture with better alignment. Thus, they end up progressing with the pace of their knowledge. As they get stronger, they make adjustments to posture and alignment improves.
You can give tons of verbal cues and suggestions on alignment, props, etc, but that doesn't convince your body. Your body still has the ultimate say here.
Let's not forget about the role of vinyasa. Fitness, counterposing, expression of prana. Also, some postures are best entered with inhale and some are best entered from exhale, Vinyasas set this concept up nicely.
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| Looks like this is turning into a flow vs. non-flow thread.
Well I personally think flow is much more difficult because going faster has always been challengng for me. I have pretty good natural strength and flexibility, but my cardiovascular ability is always lagging behind. Some might say that vinyasa flows aren't cardiovascular, but they feel like it to me when I'm not in shape.
I almost always prefer stillness. I'm not a type A person. I've always liked to do things well and slowly. Even in pre-school when all the kids were rushing through things, I would go slowly even if I were the last one finished. Flow classes are challenging for me because of the movement. They take me out of my comfort zone. | |
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| i think that stillness is within, and exists in both flow and non-flow classes. it's more of a mind thing than a what-the-body's-doing thing. similarly, "flow" exists in both kinds of classes too.
and i'll assert this. i've been practicing yoga since i was a baby. i still don't have a thigh parallel in warrior I or II. these--and most--postures are heavily modified for me and for most of my students. i look for the correct energetic alignment of the pose that leads to the right 'flow of energy' through the body, which in turn allows the body to open slowly and gracefully.
so, when i say that 'flow' exists in both classes, i'm talking about that flow of energy through the body--and through everything. even when sitting, standing, or whatever with complete physical stillness, there is still flow of energy, flow of breath, flow of blood, flow of nerve supply, and i also usually assert that ethereal construct of the 'flow of life' or the 'flow of the universe.'
i like both static and flow styles of practice--both have their benefits and their drawbacks from a teaching and practicing perspective. this is why my students quote good old forrest gump about my classes--her classes are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get! it may start out vinyasa and become an iyengar class (that is, more like practicum than a practice--where we study a pose in depth). it may start off like an iyengar class and become astanga. i never know what's giong to happen either--i just respond to the people in front of me, what i see/feel their bodies/energybodies/minds/spirits needing in that moment.
this is why i asked the various places to just call my classes "yoga" for now. because, well, that's what it is. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Eric - I don't know a lot about vinyasa, but here is my take on doing something "incorrectly" (or with inappropriate alignment or whatever term you prefer) briefly but many times can still cause injuries and can be very, very hard to correct. Our ballroom teachers are currently trying to help us "unlearn" some ingrained patterns of movement and it is turning out to be quite a lucrative business for them!  Yes, a good deal of this instruction is refinement and improving on our dancing, but a great deal of it is just fixing up old patterns that were not doing our bodies any good.
Oh, and Iyengar does "flow." We flow from tadasana to trikonasana to tadasana, to vira II to tadasana etc. | |
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| Flow Yoga does not need to be fast at all.
When I began studying Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga, the 'official version' then was to hold each asana for 12 breaths (each side) with a full vinyasa between asana and a half vinyasa between sides. This led to a long, slow and challenging primary series. This is flow.
The American invention of flow Yoga evolved from Ashtanga and really has more to do with sport than Yoga now.
Jonathon
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| i've always seen it that way, too, tourist. that is, one can 'flow' from one position to another while holding each position. that's why i could never figure out why this one studio owner, who wanted a flow class at that time slot, was so frustrated with my flows. i would do most of the flows either from tadasana or from whatever the previous posture was (particularly for floor work--and for reclining floor work i would work from savasana).
she wanted everything to be from chatu., up dog, down dog. but, the students that i kept getting couldn't do those poses properly (with correct alginment/modifications) and they would get repetitive motion injuries if i insisted that they keep doing it wrong just to 'keep the flow going.'
i explained that vinyasa is bigger than astanga, that we were doing vinyasa, even though it would be something like--mountain, triangle, mountain, warrior 2, mountain, side angle. she didn't agree. we parted ways.
anywat, to me--'still' or 'vinyasa'--it all flows. as long as your sequencing is good.
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| IMHO, this point is extremely important to be noted and also practiced.
jonnie - 2007-06-14 10:26 AM
Flow Yoga does not need to be fast at all.
When I began studying Ashtanga Vinyasa Yoga, the 'official version' then was to hold each asana for 12 breaths (each side) with a full vinyasa between asana and a half vinyasa between sides. This led to a long, slow and challenging primary series. This is flow.
The American invention of flow Yoga evolved from Ashtanga and really has more to do with sport than Yoga now.
Jonathon
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| Nice Johnnie - my biggest grump with flow classes is that the transition is done so quickly. Done with a full 5 seconds for the exhale and then 5 seconds inhale - makes it about strength and takes the aerobics out of it. I also find the hold for the poses to be frustrating - if you get full 5 breaths it's a blessing. 12 breaths at ten seconds a breath would be fantastic.
Slowing down just doesn't seem acceptable to most people.
Vic | |
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| Hi Vic,
This is exactly why I believe that a flow style practise is best suited for individual self practise and not really ideal for a group setting.
Everyone breaths at different rates and true flow movements should be enveloped by the breath. In a group/class setting the student is usually following the teacher's pace and not their own breath.
This is why the ultimate expression of Ashtanga Vinyasa is Mysore style or self practise at the student's pace.
I believe that in a class setting Zoe's expression of flow Yoga is much more appropriate.
Jonathon
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| The class I'm currently teaching is at a gym, and is a beginner-friendly alignment-based vinyasa class (whatever that means). So I try to keep to the definition of what that means to me and still not rock the boat with what the members of the gym attending my class expect (i.e. to sweat and move, but it's "easier" so as to enable beginners). For instance, foir my between-sides half vinyasas, I cue only knees, chest & chin instead of chaturanga, and baby cobra instead of upward facing dog, since these poses are more accessible to the majority of the population. But as we all know, even these poses can be taken to an "advanced" level, with the proper mindfulness during each moment of transition. But I don't bother telling them that. When I first offer this half-vinyasa, I teach it to the students as if they never learned it before, as part of the classic surya namaskar, partly because I must assume some may not know it, and partly because it is part of the learning of my class (bigger part, actually). I guide the breathing and movement pacing when it's first introduced, probably at a 5 second rate per inhale and exhale, if I were pressed to time it. But when I offer it subsequently, between sides, it is to be practiced at each student's pace, following their own breath, not that of the class, and I specifically say so. I even tell them the option of remaining in downward facing dog (or even resting in child's pose and sitting that vinyasa out whenever appropriate) is always there, and that we should all "meet together" at downward facing dog "when we're ready." Then the synchronization of breath and movement within the class as a whole resumes. Best of both worlds, I suppose. So is what I teach considered flow? I don't know. Personally, I hadn't bothered to be think about (until this thread came along, that is ). My sequences follow the rules of vinyasa krama (i.e. make sense to the body as they are executed), and that's good enough for me. I throw in the vinyasas because they are expected, I guess, to build heat between the more strength-based poses, if I had to examine what's going on exercise-wise. But it's yoga, and not purely exercise, so that's beside the point here. | |
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| Lets say that someone does a certain routine everyday, the same thing everyday. If I take longer during a class, that means that I was breathing slower, since i count my breaths, and that I was more aware and generally had a better practice, right? So does this mean that the slower your routine goes, the better? Should I make goals to take longer and longer each session?
Thanks!!! | |
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| Julian Figiel - 2010-07-25 6:52 AM
Lets say that someone does a certain routine everyday, the same thing everyday. If I take longer during a class, that means that I was breathing slower, since i count my breaths, and that I was more aware and generally had a better practice, right? So does this mean that the slower your routine goes, the better? Should I make goals to take longer and longer each session?
Thanks!!!
A primary goal is to be more aware while you are doing your poses; aware of your mind, aware of your breath, aware of your bones, joints, muscles, tendons, ligaments and aware of your emotional state. This awareness will help your alignment, help you learn exactly how deeply to go into a pose on that particular day, allow you to see where you have improved as well as where you need further refinement, increase your self knowledge etc etc. Whether that session takes a long time or a short time is immaterial. The main thing is the quality of the process, not how long it takes.
It is better to practice a short time with focus than to practice a long time without focus. Whatever we do, we are strengthening some neural pathways and weakening others. If we do a pose slightly wrong, we are strengthening our ability to do that pose wrong and making it more difficult to unlearn that "wrong" action. Therefore, it is extremely important to make sure that you are doing everything as "right" as you can. To do this you need awareness so that you are aware of what you are doing and what actions you are strengthening and what actions you are making weaker.
Follow the Law of Goldilocks: not too much, not too little, but just right!
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| Hello Jullian,
I tend not to get back in to three year-old threads but since it's been cracked open...the genie is out of the bottle I suppose.
In your text I believe there are some assumptions which may or may not hold, no pun intended. Rather than get into exactly what a longer practice may mean as it relates to the breath (for you) I'll head a slightly different direction, if you don't mind.
If your intentions for the physical practice are realized as a result of the way in which you are practicing, that's lovely. If you are having the effect in your physical body that you are seeking AND that effect is the result of your longer practice, slower breath, more awareness...then it could be termed a "better practice for you" (though not for all).
The vastness of Yoga allows it to be utilized in many different ways. Some of those ways are sound, some are not. Is it a "good" Yoga practice to do only a physical practice or is that asana? Is it a good Yoga practice to recite the Yoga Sutras or should they be lived? Is it a good yoga practice to rationalize and intellectualize all that is done or should there be a sense of feeling which softens the intellect? Does the student who only views asana as muscle synergies rob themselves of the richness of the practice throughout the other layers of existence?
Generally speaking, the duration of the practice isn't noteworthy. It may BE noted and this would be especially true for beginners, but it is not terribly relevant. I personally find that there is more opportunity for me to feel in a slower practice. And for me the practice is about more feeling, which for this post I'll loosely equate with awareness. However, this doesn't mean my practice is only made up of profoundly slow movement. Having some contrast in the practice is often very helpful for the process of discernment.
Edited by purnayoga 2010-07-25 1:07 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Just break down the class and make it slower. Mention to people to keep going slower. If they get irritated or enjoy anything ask them look within and ask "why". Make it more interesting for them. teach them that when you learn to go so slowly you can also learn about yourself and can learn too to go faster than ever before. Most people may find it diificult at first but make it easier and easier. Then they will progress more through better understanding.Have fun! | |
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Should I slow down a class?