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| Last night I "yelled" at a couple of my students.
They were talking and not standing at the front of their mat to start class.
Then I told this other girl to stop using her knuckles in downdog.
Then I thought.. wait a second Eric. She might have wrist problems and she did!
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| Do not worry much. Just go and give a kiss to those students and start all over. I mean be careful while kissing, do not be too serious. | |
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| I guess you are right. My friend called me Sergeant this morning, though..
Kiss my students.. ha!
People did thank me aftewards. But I think I lost my patience and got frustrated with them last night. I'm only human, you know...I just get angry with the gum chewing, socks, talking, people walking in late, etc..
Class was wonderful, but if this was the only class you ever had with me, you would think I'm a bit of a jerk.
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| In my class, a student is supposed to go to headstand only if they are asked to. In one batch, one student was going to headstand, when NOT permited. So, after three repetitions of warning, I made this statement:
If he does other than what I tell, there is NO problem. But, then he will be completely ignored as a part of the class, and if he gets injured or even die, I shall continue the class, while ignoring him.
This way, the student corrected himself.
But, I know there are some others who can achieve the same with loving words. | |
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| I find that being quiet, standing very still, and having a very directed (at the problem creators) and loving look with a wry smile on my face solves the problem while maintaining the air of peace in the class as well as internally for myself. The vast majority of the time the student simply needs to be brought aware as they don't even realize what they're doing. What was it that Jesus said about not knowing what they do?  | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | TampaEric - 2007-09-13 1:40 PM
Last night I "yelled" at a couple of my students.
They were talking and not standing at the front of their mat to start class.
Then I told this other girl to stop using her knuckles in downdog.
Then I thought.. wait a second Eric. She might have wrist problems and she did!
....and you thought Bikramites were mean. Sorry Eric, I could NOT resist this one!!   | |
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| Hi Eric,
It happens to the best of us at some time.
Even if that student did have wrist problems, I personally wouldn't encourage her to support her weight on her knuckles. It may appear to offer more support but is in fact far less stable and the potential to roll on the wrist and damage it more is much greater.
Jonathon
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| yes, I did look directly at the students in that way.
I think Jesus said that when he was on the cross, right? | |
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| JYoga - 2007-09-13 7:21 PM
I find that being quiet, standing very still, and having a very directed (at the problem creators ) and loving look with a wry smile on my face solves the problem while maintaining the air of peace in the class as well as internally for myself. The vast majority of the time the student simply needs to be brought aware as they don't even realize what they're doing. What was it that Jesus said about not knowing what they do?
Jesus said, "Forgive them Father, They know not what they do."
Yes Eric, he was on the cross when he said that.
Edited by bstqltmkr 2007-09-14 11:34 AM
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| It was tough. I'm teaching 35-40 college students in a gym environment...
I did treat my students with an iron glove. But they loved it..
But, yes I wondered if you would see this post... | |
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| I'll have to talk to her about it.
*if she comes back!
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| TampaEric - 2007-09-13 1:40 PM Last night I "yelled" at a couple of my students. They were talking and not standing at the front of their mat to start class. Then I told this other girl to stop using her knuckles in downdog. Then I thought.. wait a second Eric. She might have wrist problems and she did! Eric, put yourself in my place, and tell me what you'd do: only three students in the class (all-levels); one student, a virtual first-timer, won't (or can't) move out of plank into downward dog; another starts calling out in class, suggesting other poses that we should practice, because she doesn't "like" the ones I'm teaching. The third student was an experienced student, could and did do all that was taught. Oh, and then I demonstrated a headstand and fell flat on my a$$. | |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: canada | TampaEric - 2007-09-14 11:36 AM
It was tough. I'm teaching 35-40 college students in a gym environment...
I did treat my students with an iron glove. But they loved it..
But, yes I wondered if you would see this post...
well that's the problem right there..you're teaching college students, that's normal behaviour for them...and knuckes in down dog?? down dog is not bad on sore wrists unlike plank or chaturanga dandasana. | |
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| The yoga teacher must practice yoga when tested by students, not just when they do as they are told, surrender, and say "thank you".
It is often said that character is determined in the eye of the storm not the calm of the living room.
Students talking, chewing, doing their own thing, are opportunities for the teacher to practice what they preach. Of course we are all human. But we are human yogis not human waiter and therefore the bar is a bit higher. We are, by our very choices, supposed to be more centered, more grounded, and less reactive than our waiter counterpart. | |
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| If someone wants to wear socks, I let them. What if they have a horrid rash and are just now venturing out into the world and you slapped them down? Chewing gum? What possible difference is it to me? Talking-I'm not so great that they can't say a word. And, walking in late-what about the person who had to take her mother to her chemo appt and just had to have yoga, but was running late? You would deny her? People aren't robots and have to be treated with dignity. You would have seriously pissed me off. You are sounding a bit like a diva. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| Whoa Kym - did you have a bad day? That is pretty harsh. Yes, sometimes people have rashes. If they don't take socks off after it has been announced to the whole class, then they can be quietly asked if there is a reason they won't or can't. Even an answer of "no" with no explanation is fine. Talking is fine to a point. I'll bet you have a point where it is not okay, too. Someone coming in late with a sincere apology is also fine - but not to every class. Everything is a matter of degree and Eric clearly had more of it than he could handle that day. | |
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| I'd also add that chewing gum *is* an issue, one of safety and hygiene. You could choke if still munching in certain poses and no-one else wants to tread barefoot in the disgusting mess after discarded.
Fee | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Last night I posted to this forum, I hit the button 3 friggin times and my post didn't go. What's up with that???
Actually, I agree with Kym. My yoga class consisted of mostly elderly women, over 60 and some were well over 70. One lady showed up 30 mins. late, with socks on. It was so cool the way my instructor pulled her into the class. The lady found her spot and blended right on in. The class was not even close to being distracted. It was so nice. My instructor is 60 years old, has been around the yoga block for many years and is a Yoga Professor at the college, who deals with lots of different ages.
I know she is very strict in her college classes, but at the same time, she is reasonable and the kids love her class, which is totally full every semester. There is a saying, "you have to GIVE a little, to GET a little". I think people forget this when they become control nazi freaks, NOT saying you are Eric, but sometimes in today's world, it tends to lean in that direction. Up here in the mountains..we're just laid back folks and we don't have a lot of issues to deal with. Most issues can be simply ignored and just smile..be the example. I think most people who practice yoga understand the etiquette of yoga, but sometimes our lives are very hectic and there needs to be an understanding and forgiveness with each other. There have been times when my life has been like this. Thank God I was able to be late for class cause sometimes it just happens that way. The teachers rule where I go to class, is "come on, get your butt here no matter how late you are". Maybe that attitude comes with having a lot of wisdom, who knows. But, if you want your customers to be happy, don't sweat the small stuff and don't be so strict and rigid. After all, this is Western Yoga...we're not in Kansas (India) anymore,
Edited by Cyndi 2007-09-20 7:59 AM
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i have 'yelled' at a student once because i was across the room and she was doing something very dangerous and i said "Sheila! No! get out of that posture now!" scared everyone, because apparently ii have a "gentle voice."
in general, if i am frustrated with teaching, it means it's time for a break. a weekend off or a retreat is a good option for me.
beyond this, i think that there are things that i don't worry about.
I don't worry much about a first timer's alignment. i do give them modifications for everything and make sure that they're 'ok' by asking multiple times.
I don't worry much about students being late. i teach in pretty casual environments, most students come within the first 5-10 minutes. i ask them not to interrupt the Om.
Gum is an issue for me. it is a safety hazard. i don't 'harp' on it, but i do say in the first few classes of the session to remember to turn off cell phones and spit out gum. i tell them that gum is a choking hazard while doing yoga. i do have some students who refuse or routinely forget to spit out their gum before taking class.
i don't care about socks either. i suggest to the student that it's easier to practice without them, and most people discover that in the first 10 minutes and remove them without me even mentioning it. and those who keep them on, it's a real testament to somethin'. | |
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| oh, and talking in class, i encourage it to a point. there is talking that is distracting to the individual chatting (you know the people who can't handle quiet?) and to those individuals around. i discourage that gently.
but, i do encourage other talking. during certain parts of the class--such as when we're doing a new pose in the sequence or working on arm balances (there is a "choose your own adventure" arm balance section of my intermediate class), i suggest that students talk a bit, ask questions, and so on. there are usually lots of conversations going on. people new to intermediate (there are people in that class who are just in their first year of yoga but know too much to be in the basics class as well as people who have been doing yoga for 7 years with me) tend to watch others, try the basic arm balance, and laugh and talk with other newbies about how "crazy" some of those poses look. advanced ones often 'teach' less advanced ones, showing their own 'tricks' on how to get into and out of those poses carefully. and the 'middle ground' ones often encourage the newbies to keep trying and teach them the basic arm balances (like crow pose).
i also ask questions during class that require some answers--individuals get questions and i'll even ask about their kids, family life, etc, while holding them in an assist of triangle pose for example. i'll ask the group questions about alignment, philosophy, or some other related topics while entering or holding a posture.
and of course, people are welcome to ask questions. often, i'll pose those questions to the group as a whole, and sometimes i'll answer the question myself. usually, it's to the group.
so, in a sense, i encourage talking. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Has anyone ever actually died choking on gum? I think it is probably an urban myth. I think the Mythbusters should look into it, but I don't know how they would test it without actually injuring someone... | |
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| It probably appears a lot worse online than it really was.
Everything's fine...
I teach with a certain strictness and I'm not changing. If people don't like it, don't come.
There's plenty of room in this world for all kinds of teachers. | |
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| Nah...
There's a certain point in these large class where if you don't take charge, they take away from the whole environment.
We have rules and size limits and I've been flexible, but you reach a certain point where it is necessary to be strict.
I have sequences that require warm-up. When people are late to class they are not getting the warm up and it is more likely that injuries can happen. There's so much more (mostly good) that happened too. But it isn't really worth going over here...
Honestly, everything is fine. | |
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| i've had to pull gum out of three mouths/throats.
1. kid in a pool chewing gum; had gag reflex; grabbed him, put him on his back, stuck my finger in and pulled out the gum, told his mother, washed my hands;
2. high school friend who half-swallowed while laughing, got her to sit down, put my finger in and drew out the gum from the back of her mouth/throat, washed my hands, went home;
3. taking a class at a yoga studio, i was placed with the newbies (it was my first time there), the lady next to me started coughing, then looked like she was choking, i asked her if she was, she nodded, i told her to lay down, relax, stuck my finger in the back of her mouth/throat, pulled out the gum, washed my hands, then continued with class (both of us).
so, yeah, it happens. and it's not fun. i'm not very pro gum except when taking off and landing on an air plane. | |
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| i wasn't concerned that everything wasn't fine.
i'm considered a very strict teacher too--compared to a lot of people. in fact, it's probably the biggest criticism i get from teachers here. i teach alignment, i expect good form, i expect the right kind of attitude in class, etc. but, i'm also linient.
and there are classes that require warm up, but people who come to those know the warm up so they do that and then jump in when we're starting a new 'section' (right side first, or what have you). | |
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| I can relate to all these things.
The "yelling" was this:
"Step to the front of your mat."
"Step to the front of your mat."
"Step to the front of your mat."(looking at the students who were talking)
"Step to the front of your mat. Samastithi..."
Both of them were back this week. | |
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| i was replying to Cyndi.
I find a lot of similar qualities in your style and mine. | |
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| yeah, i've been in that situation. | |
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| My Sivananda teacher's remedy for persistent chattering in the face of subtle hints was to give the whole class 20-30 minutes of sun salutations or other vinyasa series he taught. If the offenders still had breath for chatter after that, they tended to wilt under the heat of a thousand glares from fellow class mates.
Fee
Edited by Orbilia 2007-09-20 11:39 AM
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| yea, there wasn't much talking about the sun salutes for sure....
I teach from my own experiences and practice and feel it best to continue in this way.
I'm still learning and hopeful about my future as a teacher. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | TampaEric - 2007-09-20 11:03 AM
i was replying to Cyndi.
Hey Eric,
I guess you have to do what you gotta do....however, I promise you, as a yoga aspirant, if I attended your class and was yelled at, or lets say, found the class to be in a "militant" style or maybe that's too harsh of a word, maybe not,  , I probably would never return back to your class. If you want to teach that way, that's your business. I'm just giving feedback to this thread. I refuse to put myself in this kind of environment, it is not good for any yoga practice. We are suppose to represent Tolerance and Compassion. At the same time, we should learn the art of how to gain respect from the people we connect with. Whether that be with our peers or students, doesn't matter. It's an art and one that is not practiced like it should. As a yoga teacher, definitely you should evaluate yourself and do a self check on a regular basis. Teachers are just as proned to "life" situations as well as anyone else.
The most successful studios that I've been to are laid back, comfortable and are very welcoming to the students/customers. There are soo many "nicer" ways to present yoga to this Western society, without coming across as being rigid and strict, but at the same time, having a mutual respect for the teachings.
Don't get me wrong here....I'm come from a more traditional background than just about anyone here. We agreed a couple of years ago on this very forum that Western Yoga was much different than the Traditional Style Yoga. Frankly, even back then, I was having a difficult time trying to marry the two together, it seemed impossible. My guru would not even teach certain teachings to Americans for this very reason. But, some guru's have and felt it was very necessary to teach yoga to the west. Its being done quite successfully these days. I'm just trying to go with the flow and incorporate both. It's very interesting, to say the least. | |
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| I felt a little harsh after I typed and sent. But, from what you wrote, it did sound like you were busting people's chops, and that's not what it's about in my yoga world. ;) In that situation of a few people not coming to the front of the mat, I would have completely ignored them and moved on, and probably cracked a joke that would have had the class laughing. I teach with a sense of humor, and definitely don't get bent out of shape if a few people are not into me. Just means they will find another class or teacher that is a better match for them.
But, in this case, you said this is a college class? Then, they will be coming back each week? I was a school teacher-I'd handle that by saying in the beginning of class, they will get the grade they earn and explain that it's not about the asana, it's about effort. Then, the rest is up to the student.
You're right-you have to teach your authentic yoga. If that's with a lot of discipline, then so be it. I'm sure there are plenty of students who click with you. If I felt singled out, or "yelled" at in a class, I would not click with that.
For me, I teach with humor, and even in my classes of close to 50 people, it works.
Edited by Kym 2007-09-20 6:49 PM
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| Tourist, I would never ask someone privately about their socks. These are adults, not children. If someone is wearing socks, that's their business. What if they have a fear of germs and are embarrassed to tell me? I think it's intrusive to get into someone's business like that. In a room of 40 or 50 people (or even 10!), they can intuit that they are supposed to take off socks, and if they choose not to, peace out. I want my class to be 100% inclusive and I want everyone to feel comfortable.
As for gum, I still think if you're old enough to vote, you're old enough to take responsibility for what you have in your own mouth.
I don't mean to be harsh, I'm just speaking my truth. I thought Eric would be ok with it.
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| Even if you dismiss the possibility of choking, how could you possibly breathe properly when chewing gum? In my experience, it's already hard enough to get students to breathe in a satisfactory manner during asana practice WITHOUT the gum chewing. | |
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| My feelings are very straightforward on this.
The teacher is responsible for setting and then maintaining the rules of the class.
The student has a responsibility to follow their teachers rules. In a traditional ashram/class context, if the student did not follow the rules then they would certainly be asked to leave. I believe this also applies to a modern Yoga class.
Of course, the student also has the right to leave the class or teacher if they feel the rules are inappropriate or they dislike the teacher.
Regarding lateness to class. If I am running late due to work or traffic, then I call or text my teacher and she is usually pretty understanding and forgiving. If I just walk in late with no warning or previous explaination, then I expect to be in trouble.
Jonathon
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| Jonnie, I agree-in my class I want the "rules" followed also. However, my "rules" don't involve gum, lateness, or socks, for example. What are your rules? You didn't say. The only rule I can think of that I have is that a student cannot adjust another student-that actually happened in my class-can you believe it? Well, it happened ONCE, never again.
I teach the way I respond when taught. I will fall over backwards to do anything for a leader/boss/teacher if they are competant in their area, kind, open minded, humble, and generous in mind and spirit and deed. And, tolerance is HUGE for me. The world does not revolve around me and my teaching. I am honored when someone comes to practice with me, whether they can be on time or not. Howver, it's rare when someone is late, so it's not really an issue. Then again, maybe it's not an issue b/c I don't make it one.
I have a really wonderful group of people I teach. Maybe I just don't have the problems you all have and have never needed to have "rules" per se. For example, I've never seen someone chew gum in class. Maybe they know that they will choke and spit it out before class? I've had a phone go off in class, but the person jumped up and turned it off in total embarrassment. I don't need to tell the class to turn off phones, they know that, but mistakes do happen. I'm not going to treat them like imbicels by telling them something like that every class. You know, this is yoga, not brain surgery. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Kym - I think we all would have to see each other's classes to see how it works. I am not a stickler for things like phones or gum etc, either. I don't go around making huge pronouncements at the start of each class. If someone is talking past when I need everyone's attention, I 'll ask without sarcasm if they had a question for me that needs to be answered. We have a lot of fun. Socks are a safety issue with me, but I have a had a student keep hers on due to a problem rash. Phones, you are right, people tend to jump up and rush with mad embarrassment to turn them off ("OMG, my phone NEVER rings! I'm so sorry!") though I did have one man go out into our change area (separated only my a cubicle divider) and answer his. After that I got a bit snarky about phones for awhile  | |
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| Kym - 2007-09-22 5:36 PM
Jonnie, I agree-in my class I want the "rules" followed also. However, my "rules" don't involve gum, lateness, or socks, for example. What are your rules? You didn't say.
Hi Kym,
Please don't think that my comments were directed at your post. I was replying in general to the thread.
While I personally like studying under a traditional/strict teacher, my personal teaching style is quite relaxed.
Jonathon
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| got it  | |
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| We all have our individual teaching styles and I hope that they are all evolving as we are. What works for one person does not necessarily work for another, although if most of us went around actually hitting students as Iyengar often has, we would end up with lawsuits. (If someone (including Iyengar) actually hit me in class to teach me a lesson, I would hit him back to show that I learned the lesson!) Whatever we do in class, we can expect our students to emulate. We need to model the attitudes and behaviors that we want to teach. An excellent example of this is how Ganga White and Tracey Rich teach. When asked a question, they do not just answer it, they try it and verbally share their observations about it. This teaches the student to be aware of what is going on in their own body/mind in the present instead of memorizing something and repeating it. It also teaches humility, inquiry and openess instead of pride and arrogance. Although every class we teach is a performance of sorts, I think that it is important to connect personally with each student and to be a good example in how we do the poses (when we demonstrate) and how we relate. I believe that a teacher should share their knowledge and experience with their students like good friends share a meal.
Edited by jimg 2007-09-21 1:22 PM
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| jimg - 2007-09-22 9:19 PM
if most of us went around actually hitting students as Iyengar often has, we would end up with lawsuits.
I think this is urban myth.
Mr. Iyengar is definately a tactile teacher but I've never heard of him hitting anyone. He loves Yoga and loves his students.
Being strict and being violent are two very different things.
Jonathon | |
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| It may be an urban myth and I hope that it is, but I have personally heard senior Iyengar teachers proudly say that they were actually hit by Iyengar and Eric Schiffmann relates in his book how Iyengar hit him hard in the jaw to make a point.
Being "strict" is often (but not necessarily) another form of violence. | |
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| Mr. Iyengar says that the teacher should remain sattvic inside and display the rajasic nature outside.
The rajasic quality of the teacher helps to overcome the tamasic nature of the students.
Jonathon
Edited by jonnie 2007-09-21 3:28 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| I have not really seen the BKS of old, however I have seen a fairly current (2001) Geeta. She "hit" a student very firmly on the chest, many times! to get him to lift his sternum and open his chest. She was not angry and she was not smacking him around and calling him names. She just wanted to wake up the area on the front of his chest. And it worked.  | |
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| To put this all into a bit of historical context: Until quite recently, fathers hit their children and teachers hit their students to make a point or to punish them or as a teaching tool. It is even a very recent thing for it to be socially unacceptable for a husband to hit his wife. My point is not to malign Mr Iyengar but rather to underscore how we all teach differently and how what is acceptable behavior to model for your students is not static and cannot be copied from someone else. | |
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| i have bony fingers.
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| tourist - 2007-09-22 2:58 AM
I have not really seen the BKS of old, however I have seen a fairly current (2001 ) Geeta. She "hit" a student very firmly on the chest, many times! to get him to lift his sternum and open his chest. She was not angry and she was not smacking him around and calling him names. She just wanted to wake up the area on the front of his chest. And it worked.
This is the difference and I think you'll find the same applies to her father's teaching style.
As a rule, physical adjustments are a last resort in Iyengar Yoga. First comes a verbal adjustment and then the 'tap' to wake the student's attention to that area. Many senior Iyengar teachers from India and Europe have done this to me and I have never felt violated at all.
Jonathon
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Expert Yogi
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| Well put, jim. I am of the first generation in N America (and I am "only" in my early 50's) where it has been really socially unacceptable to use corporal punishment. A strap on the hands was still used quite regularly when I was in elementary school and I can recall my father talking about breaking a yardstick over some poor high school kid's backside in the very early 60's - with no regret except that he ruined a yardstick. This was all pretty much over by the early 1970's when I hit (no pun intended!) high school. All for the better, I strongly believe.
But the question at hand has nothing to do with punishment, embarrassment or belittling a student. The hits and pokes and thumps (I admit I have thumped the upper chest of a student, which I don't really remember, but she recalled it with a smile the next time we did that pose!) have a purpose much more akin to kneading and thumping a loaf of bread or lump of clay. The next time anyone is practicing and can't keep those silly kneecaps lifted, I suggest giving your thighs a good whack. It WILL wake them up | |
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| The next time anyone is practicing and can't keep those silly kneecaps lifted, I suggest giving your thighs a good whack. It WILL wake them up
Or, I heard a great teacher cue to lift the toes off the mat, and that perked up my quads. No stick needed!
Edited by Kym 2007-09-23 12:58 AM
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| i find that if i give all the different verbal, demonstration, and pointing cues and they still don't get it, a gentle poke-poke-poke poke poke poke poke on the area will do the trick. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Kym - lifting the toes perks up the quads and the arches of the feet - dual benefit | |
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| and activates the shins-what's not to like? And for me, can remind me to kick in moula banda. | |
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| you fitness instructors, the problem is you guys and gals are calling yourself yoga teachers
Its not for you .Its higher than your brains in that part of the world can comprehend ,understand and experience.so you will yell ,scream like any one else and still connect you with that great tradition called yoga. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| charvaka - I would like to welcome you to the board, however if you intend to malign the members at every post, I don't know how welcoming we can be. | |
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| Tourist, I used to have trouble in prasarita padottanasana (wide legged forward bend); I kept moving my butt back.
My teacher corrected that with some timely (but gentle) swats; now when I get lazy I can almost feel the swats coming and make the correction on my own! | |
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| That's so funny.
I will clap my hands together and say imagine there is a wall behind you.
I never thought of it as a spanking!
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Regular
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Location: Montana, US | Thank God. Atlast you thought to put yourself into her shoes which helped you to think in a positive way. | |
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I'm turning mean