|
|
| Someone told me yesterday that he tried bikram yoga once but was turned off because he thought the sit-ups done in between each of the floor poses were highly damaging to your back. He said it wasn't natural to make your body bend in half from a supine position (as opposed to the "usual" sit-up with raised or bent legs).
Now obviously my own experience of doing bikram for 8/9 months has proved that i haven't had any problems with my back from doing the sit-ups, but i was wondering if anyone also thinks the bikram sit-ups are harmful? I'd imagine that if you didn't follow the instructions properly, or if you had like no abdominal muscles at all it could lead to injury... |
|
| |
|
| trusty, people have hurt themselves sitting up in bed and yet everyone still tends to do it on a daily basis. If your friend was right, would he suppose that the thousands of people practicing Bikram on a daily basis are just luckyy that they are not injuring themselves by sitting up. I have often heard of people ctitizing Bikram's situp technique and yet I have never seen anyone hurt performing one as the dialogue requests. I know I sound like a broken record on this board suggesting that if something doesn't work--or encourages injury--it is not going to continue to grow or be successful. Somehow Bikram's trainings continue to be full and new Bikram studios continue to open--seems pretty obvious to me. Rick |
|
| |
|
| If a person is experiencing a pain from normal sit-up, then they can try the modified version of "roll-up". bend knees into chest, hold on to them with your arms and simply roll up. It's much easier on your back. As far as normal sit-up and its' criticism I'm not too familiar with or have had problems with. Then again Bikrams being having lot of different criticisms on different postures, I think it all goes back to practice with awareness and to your modifications. Once isn't enough to learn that there are these different modified possibilities to the postures so you should encourage that person to give some more try, but if they don't want to, oh well. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | No problems with sit-ups here. I like the sit ups actually. At first I did not because I simply have not done sit ups since High School. I really didn't know how to do a sit up properly because in HS, we had terrible PE teachers!! After my yoga teacher taught me the correct way to do them, all the better. Like, in the beginning I would come up with my legs going in every direction, totally wrong. After I learned how to gracefully come up, keeping my legs straight and flat on the floor, and the total stretch...it's been great! The double exhale is also important when doing the sit ups. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| Doing straight leg situps as an exercise on their own went out of style sometime in the 70's. People were doing hundreds of them and the "experts" found it was indeed causing injuries. Then it became a point of exercise dogma to never, ever do a straight legged sit up. We also hear that we should never, ever do a standing forward bend with straight legs, but in Iyengar yoga we teach people how to do them safely. People who have injuries or problems with their backs need to look at modifications, but in a typical, healthy person with decent body awareness, there should be no problem. |
|
| |
|
| This guy I was talking to was so adamant that the sit-up screws up your back, it was frustrating trying to talk with him about it. I've come across a few of those types (Bikram bashers) and I guess there's not much you can do when their minds are closed. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | I counted, I think, 12 sit ups. I mean, that's not a whole lot, and I'd venture, our bodies are alot more warmed up by the time we're doing them than most people. If he's thinking of someone doing 100s of crunches, yeah, that's been proven to be bad because most people don't do them right. But in a Bikram's class? I don't think so. And I have a weak lower back. Of course I roll over alot and don't actually do it. But again, with good teachers you're reminded to take care of your back. So, it sounds like maybe he has an ax to grind. |
|
| |
|
| I have only been practicing Bikram for a few months but I have never heard any complaints about the sit-ups or heard of anyone damaging their back. There are probably 40+ students in a class at any given time and I've never seen anyone complain and there are many fitness levels present. As with any exercise...I would assume that proper form is key. As long as you aren't "bouncing" your back down to the ground and smacking your lower back down (using momentum) to get back up...you should be fine. I must also state that I trust my yoga instructor immensely as she has been practicing for over 15 years and has many awards...I feel she has done the research. |
|
| |
|
| This is unrelated to the Bikram sit-up question...I was wondering if you are located near Asheville? My family & I are seriously contemplating a move from Florida to the Asheville area. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 338
|
I have a less than strong back. I don't always do the sit-up, I don't carry on about it, I just sometimes get up by rolling unto my side. My chiropractor said that there is no way of doing that
sit up without your back supporting the beginning of it. Can it injure your back? I think so, but I
think most people would be like me. When my back is weak, I can't do it, so I don't. No teacher has even said anything to me..... maybe its my white hair. I can sometimes do it at the end of class, almost never at the beginning of that section of class.
I view it as a measure of how my back is doing. I also have to be careful on balancing stick. I can only do that when my back is strong.
peggy |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hi YogaJen,
I live near Asheville. See my "interesting weekend" thread in the Off Topic section. You won't find Bikram there...but what you will find is several wonderful yoga studios. Cindy Dollar is there...she is Iyengar. Stephanie Keach is another great yogini who has a beautiful studio. I'm even contemplating on visiting with her in the near future when I get back from Italy next year. Best wishes. Asheville is the Yoga Capital of the South. It's an incredible place to be. I love it here!!! |
|
| |
|
| I don't claim to be an expert in anatomy by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems like there are many asanas in the world of yoga that, if done incorrectly, would potentially risk a back injury much more than the bikram sit up. You can do some major damage in Urdhva Dhanurasana (which isn't even in Bikram's series) or Ustrasana. Personally I can't see how properly performing this sit up would be a source of major concern.
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| lg - fixed firm worries me much more than the sit ups, especially for newcomers. I agree with you there. |
|
| |
|
| The Bikram sit-ups is designed to strengthen the abdominal muscles and work the lower lungs. The technique is very important: The feet has to be flexed and the abdomen has to be contracted in order to support the lower back. The proper Bikram sit-up is as follow: Flex the feet, arms up over the head thumbs crossed. Inhale breathing, stomach in, hold the breath, sit-up grab the toes, forehead to knee double exhale, elbows on the floor. Try it! |
|
| |
|
| Food for thought: There seems to be universally agreement in (western) medical literature that Ballistic Stretching is possibly not the most appropriate venue for flexibility. Please research the Golgi tendon organ carefully and draw your own conclusions.
Bikram himself states in his excellent instruction manual “Bikram’s Beginning Yoga Class” to never “surprise your body by moving too quickly” and he also emphases “go into the pose slowly.” Trustworthy guidance in my humble estimation.
Sage advice (from all Yoga “styles” I’ve studied) is to take personal responsibility for your own practice: While the benefits of studying with knowledgeable teachers are undeniable, your instructor can not be the ultimate arbiter of what you are personally capable of on any given day (or moment). How you feel the next day (24 hours later) may indeed be the ultimate metric for wisdom on technique (speed, duration and depth) for each posture, as well as the frequency of practice sessions.
Please do seriously consider learning the true meaning of “listen to your own body” to aid in avoiding injury and advancing your practice.
Personally (from painful experience) I now do a modified rollup during my Bikram sessions, as do several other dedicated practitioners at my studio, enough said.
I sincerely believe Bikram’s 26 is a wonderful Yoga system (sans the Ballistic Sit-up at least for me) and yes I have tried (several years in a discovery mode) other Yoga “styles” that simply didn’t produce the mind; body; spirit connection that I achieve with Bikram’s series.
Namaste; Thomas
|
|
| |
|
| Aubrgene,
Which part of the abdomen would you say has to be activated first in order to stabilize the spine?
|
|
| |
|
| Thomas, Would you please give a dialogue to the modified roll-up you use? I use both the Bikram sit-up and a roll-up depending on the class I am teaching but I would like to hear another's roll-up version. Aubrgene gives a pretty good description of Bikram's technique although I have always exhaled strongly as I was sitting up as well as the double exhalation at the end.
As for the rest of your post: I thoroughly agree we must continually encourage our students to practice awareness and mindfulness(ourselves as well.) I often begin classes by telling my students that no asana can hurt you, no class can hurt you, and no teacher ever should, the point being that you can truly only hurt yourself. By being aware and mindful in your practice, staying connected and listening to your body, you can choose not to go there. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | For what it's worth, AK... when I roll over (which I did today) I follow the normal Bikram dialogue, flex toes, arms overhead, inhale... and then I bend the opposite leg to the side I'm rolling over towards, place that foot on the floor and roll over and exhale strongly. I don't do a double exhale, and I've never been instructed to do this, but I do feel it's important to inhale and exhale, even when rolling over. I feel like something's really missing if I don't. I also rotate back and forth, which side I roll over on. |
|
| |
|
| yogabrian - 2007-10-03 9:44 AM
Aubrgene,
Which part of the abdomen would you say has to be activated first in order to stabilize the spine?
The entire Rectus Abdominus would definitely stablize the spine. |
|
| |
|
| AKBrooker1;
As per your query this is a “dialogue” of the “Modified” Sit Up I use owing to a “challenged” lumbar spine.
Prepare: Lay on the floor with leg muscles firm (knees slightly bent), arms to the side (not straight up over head so as to greatly reduce the lever arm of the raising body mass.) Expand the chest with a deep breath; contract the abdominal muscle group (core) to increase the intra-abdominal pressure.
Perform: With scapula engaged, lift shoulders off the floor while grasping the hamstrings (at the Vastus lateralis / Biceps femoris interface) with hands to allow the Biceps brachii and wrist flexors aid the torso up to vertical. Now on an exhalation reach forward and grasp the calves (gastrocnemius) to aid in pulling (stretching) the torso forward while maintaining length in the spinal column. Hold for two breaths lengthen the spine on each inhalation going deeper forward on each exhalation
Personally I have found the aforementioned completely doable and at the same time being the least disruptive to my fellow colleagues’ practice since my moments are in synchronized harmony with practitioners executing the “regular” Bikram Sit Up (albeit I rise up for fold forward much slower).
Namaste; Thomas
|
|
| |
|
| Aubrgene,
Good guess, however the Rectus Abdominus does not stablize the spine at all. The TRANSVERSE Abdominus(belly button) is the part of the abs which would brace the spine for the big situp.
If you have a malfunctioning Tranverse Abdominus due to whatever reason the situp in the Ghosh lineage will wreck a persons back.
Now please consider that my next comment is not directed toward you but the larger Bikram community.
I feel that Bikram does not train people enough in the proper kinetics of the body. Have many friends that are Bikram teachers, I am often shocked at how the know very little about the body and how it functions beyond what the dialogue tells them. Most however know this fact and are humble about it.
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Brian, the trouble I see with the dialogue is that instead of it being a consistent starting point, it's a crutch -for teachers- and some don't expand beyond it. Not so in my home studio. The long term teachers there add their little bits of knowledge that really compliments it. But when I practice Bikrams elsewhere, it's hit and miss depending on the studio and the teacher. Which, by the way, is similar to my experience in practicing other styles -- it's hit and miss, depending on who the teacher is and what pose they're doing. |
|
| |
|
| Dj Dre,
I agree! |
|
| |
|
| DJ Dre - 2007-10-04 9:16 AM
Brian, the trouble I see with the dialogue is that instead of it being a consistent starting point, it's a crutch -for teachers- and some don't expand beyond it. Not so in my home studio. The long term teachers there add their little bits of knowledge that really compliments it. But when I practice Bikrams elsewhere, it's hit and miss depending on the studio and the teacher. Which, by the way, is similar to my experience in practicing other styles -- it's hit and miss, depending on who the teacher is and what pose they're doing.
The dialogue is the tool in which certified Bikram teachers should use for reference. Bikram wrote the dialog in order to keep his sequence and intstructions as crystal clear as possible. Teachers should just keep it simple the way it's designed to be. It's not necessary to add or embelish what's aready perfect. |
|
| |
|
| yogabrian - 2007-10-04 8:56 AM
Aubrgene,
Good guess, however the Rectus Abdominus does not stablize the spine at all. The TRANSVERSE Abdominus(belly button) is the part of the abs which would brace the spine for the big situp.
If you have a malfunctioning Tranverse Abdominus due to whatever reason the situp in the Ghosh lineage will wreck a persons back.
Now please consider that my next comment is not directed toward you but the larger Bikram community.
I feel that Bikram does not train people enough in the proper kinetics of the body. Have many friends that are Bikram teachers, I am often shocked at how the know very little about the body and how it functions beyond what the dialogue tells them. Most however know this fact and are humble about it.
The Rectus Abdominus is the muscles used in flexing the trunk and compressing the abdomen.. Contracting the rectus abdominus draws the trunk forward and deepens the action of the sit-up. |
|
| |
|
| Aubrgene,
You are correct about the function of the rectus abdominus. However, the Rectus doesn't stabilize (brace down safely) the spine. It's function is movement not stability. People with lower back or neck issues will injury themselves if they use the rectus only to sit up.
I disagree with you in regards to Bikram's dialogue being perfect. It is a good beginning, but not perfect. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | It's not necessary to add or embelish what's aready perfect.
For set up and posture, knowing the poses... I think the dialogue pretty darned good. But, it's oh so incomplete for Yoga. Yoga is a path and journey, not just a pose. It's not static, it's ever changing. The dialogue is a great foundation. But it is just the beginning. |
|
| |
The sit-ups