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| I can't help but think of TampaEric and think about how I ripped on him for ripping on his students and I think it was all because he was having bad day and it was not his usual teaching. So, here I am asking this: have you ever brought your most horrible day on the mat with you when you taught?
I taught a class today and I said right and left backwards a million times, I called out the wrong name of asana, I even forgot the word "chin mudra". I mean, it was criminal. All the while, I was correcting myself and apologizing, and I felt so bad. About a half hour into class, I said, "ok, I have to say, I am having issues. My best friend is getting a divorce and I'm very upset and I'm so sorry I'm messing up so badly!" These are my regular students and only 2 new people, and they were so kind. One even stayed after class to tell me how she delt with her best friend getting a divorce. I could go on and on. I am blessed that I have such great students who empathized with me rather than being pissed that I was so off. However, I am dissapointed in myself for bringing my junk on the mat and wonder how some of you might have handled it better. I know that in theory we are supposed to quiet the mindstuff, but knowing that didn't translate to doing that today. Normally, no matter what is going on in my life, I can calm it down during the beginning of class. Today, it was like my brain was firing off words that I didn't approve of. I can't even explain it well.
Edited by Kym 2007-11-01 10:40 PM
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| Given that yoga's about the whole person, I think you should stop beating yourself up. No one's perfect and I think being honest was the way to go as the reaction of your students show. After all, which would you prefer? That they think you're a crap, nervous teacher or someone human with a bit of junk to trip over? In fact, the newbies were probably relieved to find out they weren't the only ones confused :-)
Fee
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| I consider my teaching experiences to be my yoga, for pretty much the very same reasons you mentioned in your post. I'm trying to be the best person, the best teacher, I can be to these wonderful people who trust me enough to come to my classes, knowing full well I still have so much junk going on in my head so I always worry about short-changing them. Having expectations of what I think others expect of me is definitely a downward spiral I have to work hard at to avoid. And it's not just because I'm a new teacher. Believe me, I'm a perfectionist when it comes to doing things for other people (genetic guilt, I think  ). Like Fee said, your students seeing you being vulnerable and human is not a terrible thing at all. I think it serves as a reminder that we really are all the same, reinforcing that connection that creates a sense of universal compassion. Maybe it is because I'm a new teacher that I'm allowing myself a bit more slack, at least in terms of beating myself up for making those trivial mistakes, or having my own head-stuff distract me from the point. But I don't think it's that I don't feel I deserve to hold myself to a higher standard, because I know I'm still so new. Trust me, I prepare to the hilt for the classes I teach. I just know that beating myself up won't serve anyone, my students nor myself. So if nothing else, I try to teach them that by practicing it myself as I'm up there in front of them, flaws and all.  Interestingly enough, the theme for my classes this morning and tomorrow is teachers, and how we should thank and honor them wherever they may arise. Our conventional teachers are our teachers, yes, such as from school, our parents, etc. But also our students are our teachers, as well as the difficult people (and difficult experiences) in our lives. There is something wonderful to be learned whenever we can take the expectation/judgment factor out of any encounter or experience, I think. I also think it's easy to forget that fact. You are a fabulous teacher, Kym, and I thank you and honor you. Namaste. | |
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| Never. Actually, for me the day becomes better when I go there and I forget any other past day.
Kym - 2007-11-01 10:39 PM
I can't help but think of TampaEric and think about how I ripped on him for ripping on his students and I think it was all because he was having bad day and it was not his usual teaching. So, here I am asking this: have you ever brought your most horrible day on the mat with you when you taught?
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| i'm with Fee on this. it really is a whole person process, and it's ok to have a bad day.
typically, i'm very open with my students. i've been not quite well for the last week (but not sick either), and so i gave them a heads up about it before class started. they then joked with me that i'm probably pregnant, and after class, they dragged me over to the drug store to do a test.
and no, i'm not pregnant. LOL
the truth is, if i'm messing up because i'm distracted, i just acknowledge it. it's ok to just be who and where you are. you want to offer your best, and sometimes your best isn't that great because of whatever else is going on.
that happens. it's ok that it happens--so there's no reason to 'feel bad' about it.
remember, it happens rarely anyway. it's one day out of thousands of great days and great classes. people aren't even going to remember. and anyone who is new will realize that this isn't about being perfect or what have you--it's about being yourself, whether you're beginner or advanced, teacher or student, or whatever. | |
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Expert Yogi
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| Kym - one of my main lessons in adulthood has been learning to not blurt out all these things that are on my mind. It has NOT been easy! But I have had a few good role models, some of whom have made an art out of giving info without details. I have learned to say "sorry, I can't make it that day" rather than give an extended list of the things I have to do (or a made-up list if I am trying to get out of going!) etc. When I get muddled while teaching, no matter what the cause, I try to make a little joke (something in the air/stars, or now I've got to teach backward for the whole class) to get over the "bump." If that fails, there is "I've got too much in my brain today" or "I've got a lot of stuff happening right now" which are true, but don't leave my class feeling worse than I do. But sometimes that just doesn't work and you have to let it go. Like any other blip in our teaching, we do something we don't like, learn from it and move on.
I had to teach recently on the day of a memorial for a friend's 24 year old son who committed suicide. Many of the students probably knew the family and it would have been comforting for me to talk about it, but I focused on the students and the yoga and managed to get through it. I don't know if I could have done that even 10 years ago. I have to hope that, in my fifties, I am still becoming the person I really want to be. Its work and not always easy. But discomfort often brings change, so let yourself feel the discomfort and learn and grow | |
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| Kym,
Remember that your worst class ever could be one of your student's best class ever. In teaching as well as life in general, I try to do my best and then try to accept the result without attachment. Beating yourself up because you did not live up to a ficticious ideal of how you "should be" doesn't do you or your students any good.
Namaste,
Jim | |
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| If this is an apology, I accept.
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| Hello Kym,
One of the things we are taught to do in the Purna Yoga teacher training is a centering/meditation before we go into the classroom. Such a thing is not only to ground us as teachers (and thus leave our thingies outside the room) but also to connect us more deeply with the heart (chakra) so that we may share yoga from a place where the agenda is not desire, craving, or greed (pelvic force) nor one of ego and power (mental force).
We, as yoga teachers, are also human. So it is fine to have this experience, to look at it more carefully, and to handle it within the context of what Yoga is for you. If it becomes pattern rather than exception then there might be cause for some additional concern or action. But as an isolated event it is perfectly fine and there for you to learn from. In that respect there's no benefit from self-flagellation.
When we notice the conditions in ourselves that you are bringing up (and they may be silghtly different from person to person) then it is our practice - be it asana, pranayama, meditation, or all of the above - that brings us to a place where we can still teach without breaking down.
Of course breaking down is completely necessary in the evolutionary process as it is the precursor to breaking through. But of course, as you say, we'd like to do that breaking down on our own time not the time of our students. Now is a good time to ask the question "how do I prepare myself to offer yoga to others in the classroom". If the answer still works for you, retain it. If it does not, change it.
Edited by purnayoga 2007-11-02 4:21 PM
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| I have to admit, I was so afraid of the answers and I swore I would not log on for a week. I have to say, I'm nearly speechless with gratitude.
TE-yes, an apology as I eat crow.
Tourist-yes, I was admonishing myself as the words were coming out for being non-professional-I know better.
Neel-I usually experience a complete release of all my junk when I teach, this was unusual and it really took me for a ride.
Purna, normally, I take at least an hour before class to center. That may seem like a lot, or not enough to others, but I normally stop everything and think about my class, my intentions, and sometimes run through some asana . This particular class, I had a meeting right before. It was like a convergence of mistakes that led to me messing up like never before! I was truly sort of shocked as it was happening.
Thank you for the responses. The one thing I held onto, like y'all said, was that I'm human and by not being perfect on that particular day, it might have somehow served someone. Loka samasta sukino bavantu-right? (and excuse the spelling, I can barely spell english which is why I rarely write in sanskrit.)
So, I'm going to think about it some more. Think about what happened and what I could, or could not have controlled, learn from it, and move on. I do know that my mind was going 90 to nothing that day and I had no stillness before class, which clearly I need.
Edited by Kym 2007-11-02 9:41 PM
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| Kym - 2007-11-02 6:40 PM
...Purna, normally, I take at least an hour before class to center. That may seem like a lot, or not enough to others, but I normally stop everything and think about my class, my intentions, and sometimes run through some asana . This particular class, I had a meeting right before. It was like a convergence of mistakes that led to me messing up like never before! I was truly sort of shocked as it was happening.
I have one thing to add to this Kym. For me, when I reference "centering" it is both drawing the vital force of the pelvis and surrendering the mental force of the mind to the heart center. With this definition, that which is in or going on in the mind would be an obstacle to centering. So for me thinking about my intention or my class or doing asana would not abet me in the centering process.
Of course there is no one process and no one centering. The term however (again, to me) implies bringing the five koshas in toward the central channel which, for now, I will call the Self. So what works for me (and may not for others) is to connect with my heart center, draw my awareness into the sushumna nadi, and share that light when I go into class. Perfect I am surely not. But this is how we clear the tube that is the teacher. | |
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Expert Yogi
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| For me it is all about the invocation to Patanjali. That is my centering and transitional thing. I can be scattered and brainless while coming in, giving the announcements etc. and even have "moments" during the initial oms, but somewhere in the process of the chant, I click into teacher mode. I chant the invocation again in the last moments of savasana and then I often realise that whatever had been on my mind before the class is ready to resurface. | |
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| tourist -- it's always the same chant for Iyengar classes, right? Same for Anusara, always the same invocation, and I totally get what you mean about a chant like that centering you. At the studio where I trained, we learned at least a dozen chants, so you'd never what what the teacher was going to "spring" on us. Not that variety is bad, just not particularly centering, now that I think about it. And going off-topic a moment, back to my thread from the other day about my first Iyengar class, that was another thing that disappointed me: there was no invocation. Having never heard it, I was really looking forward to the experience of a brand new chant. One more question: when you say you chant the invocation again in the last moments of savasana, do you do that just in your mind, or aloud for the class? Just curious, that's all. | |
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| we just chant Om at the beginning of my classes--anywhere from one to three oms, and sometimes Om Shanti at the end if i'm really feeling it. and i usually don't. Om is enough.
it's a great centering tool, any kind of invocation, and i use it as well as any students. we take a few deep breaths before hand, and a few after, and then we begin moving. | |
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| yeah...
i'm just getting started with this teaching business, and a lot of the time i feel like i have very little idea what i'm doing up there.
i can't help but think back to one of my teachers saying, "for the first five years, you should be paying them to take your class."
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i am aware that i'm probably my own harshest critic, and that (some of) my students do express their happiness with my teaching, but sometimes it can be fairly brutal. especially when i'm teaching people who have taken from more experienced teachers.
i suppose this is the learning process, and i suppose that one must pay their dues.
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actually, a lot of times i see people responding well to my instructions...
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| karmann -- thanks for the info on the chanting. Level 2 only, eh? I wonder why... | |
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| my whole deal is discretionary like that. that is, sometimes i'll do it in level 1, and sometimes in some level 1 classes but not others.
it really depends upon the 'vibe' of the class. not everyone is ready for chanting to be added into class yet. for some people, they're uncertain if they want to do yoga at all, what it is--they're nervous or scared. for these folks, everything can be intimidating, so i try to keep it as casual and encouraging and inclusive as possible.
in such a class (typically a level 1), i'll guide through a small centering exercise before movement. after a few months, once they're "hooked" and happy to be there and excited about it, then i'll teach them how to Om, etc. | |
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Expert Yogi
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| Yes, it is almost always the same chant. For starting the class in particular, that is generally the routine. Three oms, call and response invocation, some words of gratitude and begin. I think BKS only began asking teachers to do this in the late 80's or early 90's when he found students were becoming more receptive to this aspect of yoga. There is a little discretion for the teachers - some never use it in Level I classes and start in Level II, but others use it all the time. I personally don't use it for Intro classes that we offer through the local rec centre, partly because they are only 1 hour classes and I need the teaching time and partly to give the students a bit more time to get used to the whole yoga thing before we get really far out and start chanting
I chant aloud near the end of savasana, which is entirely optional. Visiting teachers like Ramanand Patel and Faeq Biria chant at the end of savasana and as a student, I always felt it was a wonderful sense of completion to a class, so I checked with my teacher to see if it was ok and started doing it. Every bit of feedback I have had indicated that students really like it and I think it helps them learn the invocation by hearing it all together in one voice. And over time, I have found that it does help me to feel a sense of completing one class and let that go, especially when I teach two in a row. | |
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| karmann - 2007-11-04 11:05 AM About 7 years ago I took my first yoga classes. After about the 3rd or 4th class at the end of asanas the teacher began to chant. I was quite alarmed. My first exposure to yoga (not counting the one class I took about 7 years ago as well, when I started crying uncontrollably during savasana) was just over three years ago, and chanting was an integral part of the class (hah, that's a pun, considering my teacher's roots  ). But there is no sense of alarm for anyone, I think, because of the way she introduces that element of the class (in all levels of her classes, btw). She invites everyone who knows the chant to join in, or participate in the call and response, whichever it's going to be that day, and the option to just let the ears be soft and listen is always there. No pressure to participate, because as she explains, because just by listening one is participating. We're all part of the same vibration. It's so simple. tourist, I really like the idea of listening to the chant again as one comes out of savasana. I've had several teachers use a bell to indicate it's time to come back to the world, and for some reason, I find that a little jarring. Also, depending on the teacher's voice (volume and tone), just having them start speaking again has been disturbing at times as well. Well, instructing me to begin deepening my breath, et. al., isn't disturbing, but maybe that's only because I'm so used to that. I've had teachers start to reiterate or revisit their themes as a segue to finishing savasana. I don't think I want more lessons at that point. My brain's in a different place then, and either hearing a familiar chant or simple physical instructions would be best. But then again, maybe that's just me. | |
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| To back up a little to the "have you done this" thing, last week I had a similar sort of class. I kept messing up left and right (I never do this), kept tripping over my words and saying things that to me sounded completely stupid/stilted. After class I just told them I blamed the Halloween candy for the blood sugar fluctuations responsible for my tripping all over my words. We all had a good laugh and that was it. I think a little humor goes a long way sometimes. I felt like an idiot, but, thinking to my own teachers, it's nice to see a little humanity in them sometimes. So your students saw that in you, and I'm sure they appreciated your openness.
We can't be "on" all the time. We're only human! I thought yoga teachers were super-human, ultra-well-adjusted and always-calm... until I became one. | |
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| i think it should be noted that for some people, no amount of various presentation about the chanting, no matter how universally it is described, there are people who will be/are turned off by it completely.
i have presented it in a variety of ways in my classroom, participation is optional, and so on. and every once in a while, i still get someone who is very much against chanting becasuse they see it as honoring another god, or doing something religious that is outside the bounds of their religion.
i live in a very conservative christian area. many of them are technically "not allowed" to practice yoga if it is taught as a spiritual discipline and not a physical one only. i've had people bring their pastors to talk to me and find out if my yoga class would be spiritually appropriate for them, or if i was inviting evil into the classroom.
to some, i have explained what OM is about, what it means in it's context, and how it's a universal sound, how it's ok to n ot participate. some consider even listening to the chant to be participating. I've had some pastors give their people the 'ok' to take my classes, and some pastors do not give it.
and, i did run into an interesting group of israeli jews who also were encouraged to not practice yoga because of the chanting. it would be ok if we did hebrew chanting/prayers instead, but not in hindu/vedic chants. since i use OM in regular classes, those classes are "out" for those students--even if they're just listening.
so, it's not just that a given teacher isn't explaining it well, or isn't making it accessable--but literally there are some people for whom chanting is a real, spiritual problem. | |
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| I think that starting students with asana with the goal of later starting them on chanting or whatever is dishonest. If you want to teach chanting, great, teach a chanting class. Teaching Sanskrit chanting to most Westerners out of context makes about as much sense as Indian cricket players saying Hail Marys in Latin. (Both the Sanskrit chanting and the Hail Marys stimulate alpha waves and are otherwise meaningless outside of the context of their respective religions.) I think that asana and pranayama should be taught seperate from chanting and philosophy/religion. Otherwise, you are trying to convert people instead of sharing valuable tools for them to use as they see fit.
I agree with zoebird that we should be inclusive in our teaching and not teach in a way that makes yoga inaccessible to a large section of the population. I used to do Tae Kwon Do and one of it's tenets was "if you want to teach philosophy, do so with your example." This is often the best approach in a yoga class.
If you are actually competent in teaching chanting and philosophy/religion as well as asana, teach a seperate class where the students are coming for that. Please don't try to slip it in for the people who only want a workout. It is disrespectful to both the students and the chanting. | |
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| jimg - 2007-11-05 12:42 PM I think that starting students with asana with the goal of later starting them on chanting or whatever is dishonest. If you want to teach chanting, great, teach a chanting class. Teaching Sanskrit chanting to most Westerners out of context makes about as much sense as Indian cricket players saying Hail Marys in Latin. (Both the Sanskrit chanting and the Hail Marys stimulate alpha waves and are otherwise meaningless outside of the context of their respective religions.) I think that asana and pranayama should be taught seperate from chanting and philosophy/religion. Otherwise, you are trying to convert people instead of sharing valuable tools for them to use as they see fit. I agree with zoebird that we should be inclusive in our teaching and not teach in a way that makes yoga inaccessible to a large section of the population. I used to do Tae Kwon Do and one of it's tenets was "if you want to teach philosophy, do so with your example." This is often the best approach in a yoga class. If you are actually competent in teaching chanting and philosophy/religion as well as asana, teach a seperate class where the students are coming for that. Please don't try to slip it in for the people who only want a workout. It is disrespectful to both the students and the chanting. I'm not sure if this response was meant for me in particular, since I seem to be the only one on this thread who hasn't had a bad experience with chanting. Just in case it is, I just want to be completely clear and say that I don't teach chanting in my classes, nor do I plan to, because that's not the yoga I feel competent to teach at this time. I enjoy chanting when I attend class. Must I teach everything that I enjoy practicing myself? Chanting "om" three times at the beginning of class and once at the end is all I do, and whoever is receptive to that will continue to attend my classes, and that's that. My teacher makes no apologies for the chanting that's done in her classes nor tries to disguise it that her classes aren't just asana; it's a known fact, and still the classes are way packed. I don't think there's anything dishonest or non-inclusive in that. | |
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| i don't think it's necessary to teach them separately, but i do think that students should have an idea of what they are getting, and so if the classes include chanting, philosophy, etc, then it should be asserted in the advertising. people then know that it's going to be part of the class and there's no "bait and switch" aspect.
i find that most of the questions i get in regards to the advertising is what sort of chanting is done and for how long. some people want to learn many mantras. others want as little chanting as possible. some quesiton whether we use only hindu chants, or if we use others (buddhist, catholic, jewish, etc). and others question whether it's required or not.
when i don't have control over the advertising (such as in a gym scenario), then i describe at the beginning (if there's a newbie) what is happening, etc.
most people, btw, have no problem with an Om or 3. the majority of my students--new and old--participate. there are a few who do not. and there are a very very very few who choose not to participate because of it (i can count these people on one hand). | |
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| OrangeMat,
I did not mean to address you in particular, but rather to address the issue, chanting. I only have a problem with chanting if it it part of a "bait and switch" scenario, an attempt to "convert" or if including it makes a class non-inclusive to people who have a different or no belief system. We all teach in different areas which have different demographics and need to take that into consideration in how we structure our classes. I think that chanting should be advertised as part of what is being taught or it should be a seperate class.
Namaste,
jimg | |
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| IMHO, there is no fixed rule as to what should be done and what should not be done. In my own classes:
I ask students at the beginning of students about what their goals are and what their background is. After that I generally explain the new comer students a structure of my class and that is:
In my class, there is no structure which they have to understand or memorize. I teach whatever I feel like at all different classes. It can include ONLY philosophy for the entire 1.5 hours or it can include only asana for the entire 1.5 hours or any mixture of meditation, chanting only , philosophy, etc. etc. They are not pushed to come to my class. If they do not like the class, they can stop coming. And the fees are what they can afford and wish to pay in the box.
As for my class, they should come for learning what is available, and form their own practice for where they wish to go.
The same applies to my Teacher Training. See the bottom of : http://www.authenticyoga.org/bio.html
My experience in last several years at various settings including Elementary Western School kids, Girl Scoutns, Fitness Gyms and Jewish Centers has been extremely pleasant.
None of them had a problem with my Sanskrit Chanting or Unstructured Classes.
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| jimg -- Truth in advertising, yes, I totally agree. But I have to ask: have you actually had, or heard of, this "bait and switch" experience in a yoga class? Wow, that's totally wrong. Though I just looked at the website of my teacher's studio, and while meditation is listed as part of all the asana classes, chanting/mantra per se isn't mentioned. Knowing that it's a bhakti studio, the chanting makes perfect sense to me as part of the practice, but I can certainly see how for others, this may not be so apparent, nor even desired, for exactly the reasons you've detailed. I think I'd like to go with my continued belief that when the student is ready, the appropriate teacher will appear for that student. Namaste. | |
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| Interesting path this thread has taken. And it's so wonderful that we can all gather here, express our respective opinions, and allow others to do the same without putting forward our own dogma or agenda.
There are some definition issues afoot; Yoga, chanting, asana.... When we refine our language we refine our relationshps and thus refine ourselves. Of course there are agendas. I truly hope it is never to "slip something in" as Jim mentioned. The centering work I was referring to is to place the ego and pelvic agendas in check so that we can teach from the heart. So I hope that the agenda is always in alignment with Yoga.
There is an integrity issue afoot as well. When we teach something that we do not know or when we know something we do not teach there is an internal disharmony of integrity. That radiates outwardly and is, in its radiance, lacking authenticity.
it is up to yoga teachers to teach Yoga. We accept that when we choose. Yoga is a full-bodied practice (though absolutely not a religion) based on the vedas, the sutras, the gita, the upanishads the pradipika et al. Separating yoga from yoga is not respectful to students or chanting/mantra/philosophy/pranayama/pratyahara/santosha/satya. It is what it is. If one's preference is exercise or fitness, that is fine. But when you go to a Yoga class expect yoga. If you don't like yoga then go take Pilates.
It is not to us, as teachers, (as this thread is IN the Yoga Teachers section) to like or dislike this element or that element of Yoga. Yoga is yoga. we are depriving only ourselves when we choose to narrowly view Yoga.
Relative to what we share, whether we Om or not, whether we invocate, whether we recite the Gayatri (minding that the Gaytri is the mother mantra of all yoga and one could make a case that refuting the gayatri is refuting yoga itself) there are two considerations.
The first is "what do I believe and practice as a human being. If a teacher does not hold to the invocation, does not hold to the harmonizing of Om, then it is not appropriate to incorporate it (though it does beg several other questions about that person's practice, acceptance, training, et al).
The second concern is the level of the student. NOT whether they want it or not or are Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, or Zoroastrian. Students, when being taught, are taught in progression. The calculus of chanting has a prerequsite. Scales precceed composing. The alphabet preceeds creative writing. This is the way of learning, not the way of Yoga. Yoga merely abides by it. A yoga teacher who progresses to mantra is no different than a math teacher who progresses to the quadratic equation. It is not bait and switch. It is growth in learning. Foundations must be developed.
Those student who just want to jump around can go take Awesome Abs, Cardio Sculpt, Step & Pump, Core Energy, Kickboxing, or the like where there is no risk of a 9,000 year-old history, philosophy, or framework.
I welcome anyone to my class for any reason they wish to be there but the teacher does not sacrifice her/his truth for the truth of the student. I teach Yoga as it has been shared with me and that will continue to grow as I continue to study, as will my students. When it is appropriate to teach more, then I will. And that "more" may very well be the Gayatri. Otherwise I could not live in integrity.
Edited by purnayoga 2007-11-05 3:44 PM
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| There is no right yoga or wrong yoga. There is no right way to do it (other than safely) or right way to think about it. There is a great variety of ideas and practices that are all yoga. Some people are very dogmatic and fundamentalist about their yoga and some people are very free and open about theirs. Some people try to find the essence of yoga in the past, others in the present and still others in the future. Some people see yoga as requiring chastity and others see yoga as tantric sexual practices. For some people yoga is physical exercise and for some people yoga is the rejection of the physical world. For some people yoga is a static truth and for others a constantly changing realization. If yoga is not a religion, then there are no beliefs that one is required to follow. For me yoga is inquiry and the unknown. For others, it is knowing. It is all yoga.
Edited by jimg 2007-11-05 5:20 PM
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Expert Yogi
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| jim - I admit to having feelings about the bait and switch situation and I pondered it for some time. It was that thinking in fact, that led me to chant the invocation in more of my classes rather than fewer. It seems to me to be more honest to be up front right away and let people know this is how we run our classes rather than have them go to a class with one of my co-teachers or arrive a year or so later in Level II and suddenly find themselves facing the prospect of chanting. This way they can make an informed decision right away about whether or not this is the right class for them. I do feel good about the fact that I know the invocation well, understand why we are chanting it and have a fairly reasonable crack at decent Sanskrit pronunciation (I think Neel will back me up on that...) so I am not out there just chanting away stuff I have picked up on a Ram Dass CD that struck my fancy. And I think that counts for something, too. | |
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| Yes, I can truely say that SisTourist did sincere practice of the chant she got recorded from me and she sent me a recording to review. And, I can assure that she practiced it numerous times to come to such a good pronunciation. And, she herself can tell others difference she must have found in her physical and mental well being between her starting chanting and after practicing the chanting. Since she has done so, she will definitely a proper person to vote on this.
And, definitely there are many ways a person can chant a particular chant in wrong ways. All the persons chanting a given chant in all ways are NOT correct ways. In chanting and many other yoga practices there are definitely wrong ways of doing them and correct way of doing them. There is definitely a WRONG and RIGHT in Yoga.
Above is my opinion, a strong opinion, a conviction and also my experience after studying and teaching for sufficient time. | |
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| Glenda,
If you want to have chanting be a part of your classes, you have (in my opinion) done the right thing. You have been honest with your students in letting them know up front that chanting is part of your class and you have been honest with yourself in that you have spent time learning about chanting.
Namaste,
Jim
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| kulkarnn - 2007-11-05 7:03 PM
And, definitely there are many ways a person can chant a particular chant in wrong ways. All the persons chanting a given chant in all ways are NOT correct ways. In chanting and many other yoga practices there are definitely wrong ways of doing them and correct way of doing them. There is definitely a WRONG and RIGHT in Yoga.
Come on Neel, you are just saying that if someone agrees with you that they are right and that if they don't agree with you that they are wrong. Although there are traditional (including a great variety of traditions) and non-traditional ways of doing things (including chanting) they are not right or wrong. The value judgement of right or wrong is coming from you, it is not inherent in the thing or action itself. I know that you like to see things as either black or white, but reality just is not that way (and I think that you know that). Even the world of matter is not all that absolute.
Namaste,
Jim
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| Dear Jimg:
If you think that way, no problems. I only stated what wanted which is the last sentence in my previous post. That is what I do and am not having any problems with my classes, friends or students or teachers. I can even accept that another person may have a different or even opposite experience. But, I do not see any need to change my opinion, strong opinion, and conviction for that matter.
I do accept your logic that a class should mention what they are going to teach, and not teach a while saying b, as you explained. However, what I state is I teach what I feel is right to my thinking, if that is beneficial to the student, they should come or seek elsewhere. I feel that is fair enough.
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| kulkarnn - 2007-11-06 5:19 AM
However, what I state is I teach what I feel is right to my thinking, if that is beneficial to the student, they should come or seek elsewhere. I feel that is fair enough.
Neel,
It would be dishonest for you to teach what you did not feel was right or feel was not beneficial to the student. I think that good teachers teach from the heart and I think that is what you are describing as what you do. Following your heart is doing what you feel is right. It has nothing to do with RIGHT or WRONG. It does have a lot to do with personal honesty and integrity.
Namaste,
Jim | |
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| I'll just pose this and then quickly run back into my hovel to drag heavy objects around with my privates.
(assuming a somewhat standardized intention)
Just as there are crimes that are legislated and crimes that are inherent, there is a similar concept in play with Yoga?
Malum in se vs. malem prohibitum
I would suggest that while anyone may have any stance and do any thing and that is any okay...
There are some things that are variance from one style to another, one lineage to another. AND there are some things that are inherently incorrect (or "wrong"). It is not because I say so or because someone agrees or disagrees with me.
For example, mispronouncing certain words within the Gayatri does not make it a request for illumination but a request for darkness. In the context of yoga (as I understand it) there is no appropriate placement for a request of this sort. That would make a recitation of the mantra (with the improper pronunciation) "wrong" for yoga. Perhaps not wrong for selling records but wrong for illuminating the mind and removing the veil of ignorance.
One may still recite it that way without reproach of any kind from me. But I would not teach it that way and would correct the students that I am charged with instructing in the proper recitation.
Edited by purnayoga 2007-11-06 8:13 PM
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| purnayoga - 2007-11-06 5:10 PM
For example, mispronouncing certain words within the Gayatri does not make it a request for illumination but a request for darkness. In the context of yoga (as I understand it) there is no appropriate placement for a request of this sort. That would make a recitation of the mantra (with the improper pronunciation) "wrong" for yoga. Perhaps not wrong for selling records but wrong for illuminating the mind and removing the veil of ignorance.
One may still recite it that way without reproach of any kind from me. But I would not teach it that way and would correct the students that I am charged with instructing in the proper recitation.
Let me take a similiar example (which is hundreds instead of thousands of years old): A song by Schubert with words by Goethe. Most people today sing Schubert in "high German". Most Americans sing "high German" with an American accent. Most Americans cannot make the correct German sounds as both the consonants and vowels are slightly different and Americans grow up with different sounds. (American vowels are broader and German vowels are more pure like Italian except for the dipthongs which are more like French). Assuming that one learns to sing "high German" correctly, are you singing the song correctly? Schubert was Viennese and would have spoken an 18th century version of Viennese German, NOT "high German". This difference is about the same as a deep southern American English accent compared to "Queen's English". He would have had a very different understanding of the poem by Goethe than you or I or Goethe. Yes, there would be clues into Schubert's view of the poem in the music, but that is only an interpretation of an interpretation. Your musical intrepretation of Schubert cannot be authentic because you have heard Wagner, Stravinsky, the Beatles, Rock and Roll, and Rap. Your entire experience, your frame of reference, your "weltanschauung", your context is different. What if you pronounce some or all of the words "wrong"? What if you sing different notes? (Some of Schubert's notes were probably changed by copyists and/or editors anyway.) This is only "wrong" within a certain tradition, within a certain context. You cannot be authentic, but you can fit into a general tradition or be "correct" within a certain context. "Proper" or "correct" are personal interpretations within our personal context, whether we are conforming to our interpretation of a time-honored tradition or making it up as we go.
The point of singing the song is to communicate an idea and/or emotion (on a deeper, non-verbal level) as well as to please the ears and soothe or excite the spirit. To me, if you communicate with the song it does not matter whether it is "correct", as this "correctness" is just conformity to a particular tradition and is not music. If you don't communicate, it does not matter how "correct" the performance is as it is dead.
If the mouth is asking for darkness but the heart for illumination, does it matter? If the mouth is "correct" and asking for illumination, but the heart seeking darkness, what happens then? Who are you asking for illumination from? Any power capable of satisfying such a request would be able to understand the intent.
As a yoga teacher, we teach within a certain context. Whether that context is open and free or dogmatic and fundamentalistic, a modern interpretation of something ancient or actually modern, there is only a "right" and "wrong" within that self-generated context. That context could be one of the many traditions or even a lack of tradition but would still be a context. That is as far as "right" and "wrong" go. They are relative and limited only to a particular moment within a particular context.
Please excuse my rambling. | |
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| The first sentence seems valid and liked by me. However, the idea of escaping from 'right' and 'wrong' and where the limit of this idea can end is doubtful and scary for me. Also, this idea of 'right' and 'wrong' can be expected to 'honesty' plus 'dishonesty' or 'integrity' plus 'disintegrity', I suppose.
jimg - 2007-11-07 1:06 PM
Any power capable of satisfying such a request would be able to understand the intent.
As a yoga teacher, we teach within a certain context. Whether that context is open and free or dogmatic and fundamentalistic, a modern interpretation of something ancient or actually modern, there is only a "right" and "wrong" within that self-generated context. That context could be one of the many traditions or even a lack of tradition but would still be a context. That is as far as "right" and "wrong" go. They are relative and limited only to a particular moment within a particular context.
Please excuse my rambling.
Edited by kulkarnn 2007-11-07 1:23 PM
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| Neel,
To me, right and wrong are based on the past and are dogmatic and a continuation of the past into the present. This is a closed system that makes growth and evolution difficult, although it can put a damper on some destructive things. On the other hand, honesty and integrity are in the present moment and are both constant and continually changing at the same time. This is transformative!
Namaste,
Jim | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Well, there is correctness within a range of correctness. Sing that Schubert by changing all the notes, sing them flat and without attempting an approximation of the language and you get dead WRONG. And what a shame that would be! To a certain extent we are protected by our good intentions, but there comes a dividing line eventually...
But this reminds me of a thing I heard on the radio where young opera singers and musicians have decide that young folk need to hear opera more so they are playing gigs in bars  There are some stuffy old folks who would say that is purely wrong, but I think it is cool | |
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| talk about "have you done this?!!!!!"
i had to defend my classroom to the point of violence today! yes, violence.
the story is a simple one. i work at a gym. my class has been at 7:00 (or near then) for the last 6 years. i have a dedicated class, the largest at this gym.
other instructors have come and gone (different disciplines) who wanted class at 7:30 or 6:30 or what have you. i've always moved the class, and the class (students) has always been accommodating.
with this, we have always created 'buffer time' in our class. we do this because we know that class times before us often run over, and we want to make sure we get the full hour of time, and also sometimes we like to go over by 5 or so minutes just because the going is so good! so, i tend to schedule my class 15 minutes after the previous and 15 minutes before the next.
up until this year, i've been included in meetings about scheduling, informed of possible changes, and explained the reasoning for the buffer. Because there are a number of us with specialized classes, a lot of us prefer this 'buffer' system.
but a lot of newbies moved in this year--newly certified folks (various disciplines), new trainers, and the whole thing. even new management. communication has completely broken down, and we typically find out about schedule changes when we show up for class that day and notice that it's changed.
for example, we had moved our class to 6:45 to accommodate a class starting at 8:00. that class ended (the trainer left after only 5 weeks of employment there), but we kept the 6:45 class time. Then, another trainer (new) shows up and put a class in at 6:30 until 7. We showed up for class at 6:45, as usual and as on the schedule, only to discover this class in session. From outside the classroom, i waved to the instructor who stuck his head out and explained that this was the "new abs class" from 6:30-7:00. I said "oh, ok." i wasn't worried, as we could move from 7 to 8.
on that particular day and for some days following, he was getting his legs in the schedule and was running about 5-10 minutes over time, so we were starting between 7:10 and 7:15, and running and hour from there. i encouraged him to try to get into his half hour, and within two more weeks, he had finished by 7 and generally does so regularly.
shortly thereafter, i was teaching from 7-8, not expecting a class after us. but when i arrived, i noticed a sign about krav maga classes starting at 8. i asked the desk folks about it and was informed that these were renters. this isn't unusual--sometimes karate schools and related rent the room for classes and events--and we all strive to respect the time that they are renting the room. jack's class ran late that day (until 7;10), but i ended my class early (with their knowledge) by 7:55 to transition and welcome the krav maga folks. this means that students only got 45 minutes, but jack and i talked and i implored him to be sure to finish just before 7 if possible (say, 7:5 so that we could start by 7:02 or so and finish by 7:56-57 for the krav maga class.
krav maga class has been there for 8 weeks, and they have a decent sized class (5 people and 3 instructors). for the first 7 weeks, i've ended class early so that we could transition easily. the students stated that they were really upset about their class time being cut into, and had made complaints about jack running late and our having to end early.
last week (week 7), i talked to the krav maga instructors and said that when classes run behind, we want to hold an hour class--which might mean cutting into their 'official' time by a few minutes (3-5), and that we hoped that they'd be ok with extending their class (from 8-9 to 8:05-9:05 on those days when we run late). i told them that it wouldn't happen frequently, but sometimes it happens and that our clients (the members of the gym) also deserve the full benefits of their memberships. they seemingly agreed.
well, today, classes got backed up starting with the 4:30 class. the teacher at 4:30 is new, and she wanted to "finish her lesson plan" for the class, and it ran until 5:40. then, the next class ran until 6:40. then, jack did his abs class, but was generous enough to end at 7:05 so that we could get in and settled. i thanked him for shaving 5 minutes off of his class and thanked his students as well.
i then started my class at 7:10. i told the clients that i would run class until 8:05, that we'd have to shave off five minutes to honor the KM students. they were happy to do this, and we got started. it was a great class.
at 7:55, the female KM instructor stuck her head into the classroom saying "are you finished yet?" and i said "no, we need about 10 minutes." she said it rudely, made a lot of noise, and was very disruptive. but, this happens--i could handle that.
then, at 8:00, one of the young, male KM instructors opened the door and said "are you done?" and i said "no, just 5 more minutes" and closed the door. At this point, i chose to stand in front of the door. we were heading toward the savasana and meditation, and i didn't want any more interruptions.
while standing in front of the door, they made fun of us quite loudly and called us names. the students and i could hear, but even this didn't bother us. we know that a lot of folks don't get it, and they don't understand why we're laying on the floor or just sitting quietly.
just after i put my students into savasana and i started the guided meditation (before the silent, seated meditation), the older, male KM instructor pushed the door open into me, and said "YOU'RE FINISHED! GET OUT NOW! THIS IS OUR ROOM!"
and yes, he yelled it.
i leaned back against the door, closing it. i then went straight into cuing the breath to calm the students and myself (they were quite agitated after this), and then i slowly brought us to seated where we chanted Om Shanti (three rounds) for a few moments instead of silent meditation.
At this point, it was 8:03, and then we did namaste, prayer, and were finished. At that point, i opened the door and let them in.
The instructors came in and started yelling at me that i was disrespectful, and then they started to bully the students! they started to pick up their belongings and throw the belongings toward the door, they were yelling at us to get out, that we need to "honor the schedule" and that my behavior (keeping them out) was disrespectful.
I told him that my clients are members of the gyms and paying customers, and that they deserve what they pay for as well as the KM teachers and their students. i also asserted that their disruption of my classroom was rude and disrespectful, and that their intimidation and bullying was completely uncalled for.
at this point, the elder KM instructor stepped close to me to intimidate me, yelling that i was wasting their time by having students 'just lay there!' i stood my ground and firmly stated that "just because you don't know what it means, doesn't mean that it's not valuable, necessary, and important. i expect you to respect my authority over my material and my classroom." i then started swearing at him like a sailor.
he backed away. apparently i had intimidated him. LOL at this point, it's about 8:07 or so.
anyway, my students were livid. at the beginning of the altercation, one of the students went out and started talking with the desk guy. jack (who is also a trainer) was there and he said that we could talk to the manager about it tomorrow. the other 12 students had come out to complain by this point.
we refused to simply leave, and jack kept talking about how we needed to be accommodating. I mentioned that i'd been accomodating when he shoe-horned his class in between mine and beth's, when the krav maga folks started their class, when franko told me--didn't ask or inform but told me--that he was running his class at 9:30 am on fridays and we "had to move" (even though we'd been running that class for 7 years now), when people have asked to run classes at 7:30 or 6:30 or 6:00 on mondays (we used to have class from 5:30 5o 6:30, and then we moved it to 5 because another person wanted something at 6--now they want it at 5:30 and we won't budge on that), and how we've always been kind in our waiting when classes run over, that we simply run our class over, or make up the time at other times as we can.
i asserted that i simply couldn't be more accommodating! it was 5 minutes, and i'd informed them about this.
and even if i hadn't informed them, or asked them about it, is 5 minutes so extreme and important that it warrants interrupting the classroom 3 times, yelling at me and my students, calling us names, bullying us and being generally intimidating while we were striving to quickly get out of the classroom?
At this point, the students and i insisted that the manager be called immediately, as well as the gym owner (nick and phil). jack said "but it's his private time." and i said, 'doesn't matter, he's management and this is a serious management issue! i think he should be called now." the students backed me up with this, insisting that management be called before we would leave.
jack called nick and left a message, then called phil. he left my phone number on the messages, for them to call me ASAP. and, i wrote this email to them:
I am extremely livid with the way my clients and I were treated this evening by the Krav Maga instructors.
Never in my years as a yoga teacher in any facility have my clients and I ever been treated in such a horrible, intimidating, and disrespectful manner. My classroom was interrupted twice at the end of class, and my clients and I were bullied and yelled at as we left the classroom.
Regardless of any circumstances, I think that every client and employee expects to be treated with common courtesy and respect.
The circumstances of this evening are one of those rare events that happens with fitness classes--the previous classes ran a bit over and got backed up. This doesn't happen often, but when it does, common practice is to transition kindly and respectfully, to provide the students with the full benefits of their membership and their expectation for the classes, and to do our best to start quickly and even shave time off of our class to keep close to schedule.
Tonight, my class started at 7:10 (due to the back up) and ended at 8:05--shaving 5 minutes off of my class time. I assumed that the Krav Maga class could accommodate this unusual event--but instead they responded with a great deal of aggression towards me and towards my students--your paying customers!
Even if finishing five minutes late is a serious problem--it certainly doesn't warrant a response as violent, intimidating, rude and disrespectful as this group treated us this evening.
So, I what do I want?
*I want an overt, official apology from them to me and to my students at the end of the next Wednesday night yoga class.
*I want an understanding that on those rare occasions when classes run late--which is something that we all strive to avoid--that the classroom, the students, and my authority in the classroom to end the class will be upheld until we are ready to depart, and that it will be done so respectfully without interruption or rude name-calling outside the classroom while the class is ending (apparently, they did not realize that the room is not sound proof, and I heard their name calling and rude language during the last 3 minutes of my class).
*If the Krav Maga instructors cannot be accommodating and respectful to me and to my students, then I suggest they move their class back to 8:15 or 8:30 pm. My class has dedicated, paying customers who want a fun, peaceful yoga experience without having to deal with the stress of aggressive people bullying them as they leave class.
*I have been very accommodating of the schedule changes over the last year--often without input or advance notice of a change until we show up for class. I would like more communication and the ability to input on whether or not my class can or should be moved. I think that this basic professional courtesy should be extended to all of the teachers and other employees of the gym.
I strongly feel that it is important to emphasize that while the Krav Maga instructors are paying rent, I have a regular class of 8-12 students who have attended this class for many years and who are also paying customers. I do not know which you hold in higher priority, but I would hope that you value your customers as much as I value them. I would hope that you see the seriousness of this issue in regards to the terrible behavior on the part of the Krav Maga instructors and will act accordingly.
I look forward to your timely response.
Thank you,
me
I think that there are times when the warrior spirit is a necessary part of practice. I did my best to be accommodating to them, and I was as calm and respectful as i could be as they repeatedly interrupted my class between 7:55 (five minutes before they officially have the room) and 8:05 when we had all basically exiting the room (i would say class officially ended by 8:03 or so), and i really didn't get upset and angry about it until that man got in my face--and i noticed that the other two instructors had gotten in the faces of my students and their students were tossing our things toward the door!
i think that self defense is sometimes necessary--and that this was madness.
i look forward to how the gym is going to deal with this. it amazes me how grown people can behave so childishly over 5 minutes that could simply be added to the end of their class. | |
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| I am dumbfounded. Throwing their belongings out the door?! I don't even know what to say about this other than extending my sympathies that you had to deal with this b.s. and now, sit home and stew about it (as we all would). I can't imagine the gym management not coming through for you. This is horrible!! And during shavasana, no less. | |
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| i know, right?
all of the students made phone calls and sent emails as well. they included me on the CC for the email.
at least the gym is sure to have heard about it! | |
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| Dear ZB: Please do not waste your valuable time and energy at this place. OM shantiH. | |
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| neel:
we've talked about options for moving on.
one option is going to another gym and seeing if we can get classes there. i've started to talk to them and mentioned that my following (of about 20-25 people total) are willing to stop their membership at the current gym and join the new one just to take my yoga classes. some of these students only belong to the gym for the yoga classes.
other options are not as financially viable for the students and myself. with the gym membership, they pay about $.83 per class. i earn $30 for each class. in any given class, i have between 6 and 15 students depending upon day, season, etc. whether i get 6 or 15, i still get $30 and they still pay $.83 cents (roughly--of course, the more you come--if you come to three classes of the four a week, you get this price. those who do four classes pay less!  ).
i thought about starting "dollar classes" at a studio near here, but it doesn't fit my schedule for these students. each student would pay $1 per class. this, of course, gives them a great deal, but my only earning would be between $6 and $15 per class rather than the usual $30.
now, i would say that money doesn't matter--but it does. there's no reason why i shouldn't make a living teaching yoga, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to make a bit of money. It's not as if i'm making millions teaching 4 classes a week at this place for $30, 5 classes a week at the Y making $15.15 per class, 1 class a week at another gym for $30, and then whatever i bring in from private lessons, workshops, retreats, etc.
so, it's just not viable to do $1 classes AND it's not viable for the students to pay more than $1 for their classes.
i spoke with a local martial arts studio about their business model--they have monthly memberships for their training--and whether or not our group could be included but only for yoga. . .and so far it's not really viable for the students.
so, the only real option here is to either hope that they make reparations OR that the other gym will allow us to come over to their place.
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| ZB: Thanks for not misunderstanding my sentence. I meant " do not waste time at THAT place". I wrote 'this' place sounding like this forum. Again, I meant " do not waste your energy for that studio".
Yes, I agree. Money matters. But, for money, one should go where money is. I am not a good expert in that. But, I am satsified with what I do. | |
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| no worries, neel! i love ya!
as far as an update goes, the situation is being taken care of.
after i left last night, it turns out that the amount of noise that they and we made attracted the attention of the whole gym--and more than just my class complained at the way the KM teachers treated us. So, Nick stopped by the gym after the Krav Maga class and explained to them that classes often run 5-10 minutes late and that we need to be courteous, respectful and accommodating of each other and that they could simply run their class 5-10 minutes over (starting at 8:05 and ending at 9:05).
even so, Phil and Nick both got my email, as well as emails from my clients asserting the same story, the same problem, and the same "demands." today, i went to the gym to meet with Nick, the manager, and he said that Phil, the owner, would be in within the hour, but he was going to inform me of the current situation.
first, both take the complaint seriously, particularly in light of the fact that it spread throughout the whole gym and made multiple members very uncomfortable such that they complained too. he also informed me that while this group is renting from the gym, they staretd their classes 2 months ago and haven't paid their rent yet! So, they already had problems with the people.
this, then, takes us to reparations. when phil gets in, he and nick are going to decide whether or not to kick out the KM group for not paying rent and for this incident. If they do not kick him out, then they will meet all of the "demands" towards them that i put in my email: an apology to the class, respect of the class, the classroom, and my authority, and move their KM class back to 8:15 or 8:30.
so, either way, it looks like it's going to work out in my favor. everyone agrees that their behavior was completely in the wrong, and extreme at that.
no need to move, then. | |
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| ZB,
Obviously it is totally your call, your dharma, your situation to handle in whatever way serves you.
My observations are based only on what you've shared. It is clearly a very dramatic event, any way you look at it.
It does not sound like the group exercise program is well run or well maintained at the venue you reference. Even though Group Ex may not be a core offering at the venue a "hands off until there's a huge disturbance" attitude strikes me as care-less. the students may be nice. The management may be nice. The owner may be nice. But nice is only a quality of a human being not of a good employer, manager or facility.
I personally would have no interest in a letter of apology to my class or an in-person apology. It simply was the behavior it was and a forced apology that is mandated from ownership is both hollow and meaningless (to me). I would not want to give the impression to my students that this is warranted for me to be "okay", move on, cope, or be the smiling yogi I am because it is not.
Additionally, on a personal level, I would not make my teaching decisions based on the students. If I did not want to teach there (for whatever reasons) then I would stop teaching there and teach elsewhere. That could be for fiscal reasons, respect reasons, saucha reasons, etcetera.
My students would be both informed of this and welcomed to continue to study with me wherever I moved to. But a coalition would not be needed for me to move on (meaning you don't need to discuss options for moving on). This does not mean I don't care for or about my students. It merely means I operate in an integrity around my teaching separate from them (as I believe that is most heaalthy) and being supported in that teaching is critical to my teaching and my growth and therefore it is critical to the growth of those I teach.
You will, I am certain based on previous chat, find the yoga lesson in this for yourself. Right now it sounds cloudy and convoluted. The waters are murky. So as your forum friend and peer I'd encourage you to seek a greater clarity, setting aside the external references and connecting with the internal one.
Edited by purnayoga 2007-11-08 12:59 PM
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| every gym, yoga studio, karate studio, etc that i have worked for has been mismanaged in some way. as far as i can tell, it's the nature of the beast of this kind of business. if i'm going to work for others as an employee, then i accept that there will be a certain measure of mismanagement.
for the most part, it's a quirk of the business that i can handle. when i need to, i assert what the problems are, i negotiate with management about different issues, and i make sure that the needs of the student and the teacher (that's me) get met.
but, this chronic mismanagement is, in part, why i am moving toward being more independent overall and working less as an employee. my friday night class, for example, is a rental agreement with a studio. it's why i have been doing the retreat, workshops, and teacher training. All of these are completely independent of anyone, anywhere. I simply rent a facility, hold a session, and whomever comes, comes. I've been blessed to make profit each time. it's not enough to support me yet--but in time it may be.
as for the issue of making decisions based on my students, while i agree that at a certain level, a measure of professional/business distance is required, i also highly value my students and recognize the importance of our relationship. i also recognize the issues of financial balance.
many of these clients are my "core group" and they also come to workshops, retreat, etc. they are a great gift to me, and i want to offer my best to them. because of the nature of our *healthy* (TYVM) relationship, i think it is important to keep them informed of my thought processes and needs as well as to hear their needs in order to come to something that is workable for both of us.
If i absolutely had to leave this place, i would. in fact, i considered it last night and made contact with a couple of folks about renting their space during the regular class times. i'm still considering it, but i think that the gym will be improving.
also, i don't like empty apologies, nor do i accept them. but if i don't get some demonstration or an opportunity to air my grievance to that person directly, for that person to at least "hear" or "see" my perspective, then that is problematic to me.
my modus apparandi has long been to simply shrug it off and say "that person is crazy." and what happens is that "that person" generally accuses me of being unethical, problematic, etc, and then i'm the one who ends up "in trouble" one way or another. Part of my yoga lesson recently is learning to stand up for myself.
so, it's important that if the person comes to apologize, that he hear what i have to say, and from that, he'll either apologize sincerely, or i'll simply not accept a false apology. | |
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| zoebird - 2007-11-08 1:27 PM
Part of my yoga lesson recently is learning to stand up for myself.
Interesting. One of the qualities that I've admired in you is your ability to stand up for yourself. I'm surprised to hear you say that you're working on it, since you seem to do a better job than a lot of people I know.
EDIT: Further it would appear that your ability to stand up for yourself is the reason why a number of the people at this gym have rallied around you when this crisis occurred.
Edited by GreenJello 2007-11-08 2:51 PM
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| zoebird,
I really hope that you are able to resolve this unfortunate incident happily for all.
jimg | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | What a nightmare! But I have to chime in and say that I too have never heard of a Group Fitness program being run quite this badly. I can't believe that there is no set time schedule and also that there isn't just one person setting the schedule- very odd that other instructors and trainers could just add in classes and that you could change the time of your class around. It sounds like anarchy.
I teach at a fairly large chain and we have schedule changes 3X per year. The Group Ex Mgr sets the schedule and individual instructors are not allowed to make changes among themselves.
The lateness is another issue and a personal pet peeve of mine. While the KM people in your incident were clearly out of line, the 4:30 instructor who ran 10 minutes over is the one who really created the problem. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Sorry ZB for all this. I wish you all the best in finding your "perfect" place one day,
This is the very reason I don't do yoga in the gyms. I live in a remote area here in the mountains. There are 3 gyms that are 30 mins plus for me to get to. They both have yoga. Every time I think I want to try it out, I go in and scope the area out. From an intuitive persepective, I see all the things you were talking about when I'm in the gym...just from walking in the front door and having a less than 5 minute conversation with the front desk host. Sooo, meanwhile, I will just keep my college class, even though I only have 3 time slots to choose from per week. I just manage my time better to be able to attend.
What really blows my mind is the gym mentality. I cannot understand why they can't get their acts together on these issues. I see it in almost all the gyms I visit. The reason I visit them is because Satyam is a body builder and he's always needing a drop in gym when he comes home on the weekend. There is this one that the local hospital owns. They keep the A/C at 60 degrees. Both of us have told them how BAD it is for your health and that all those elderly people (there's a bunch of elderly people that attend) should not be working out like that. They have deaf ears. Every time they try to get me to join, I always remind them of this. Do they care?? I don't think so. I think most people are totally UN-MINDFUL and I'm so glad we have choices. It's really unfortunate because exercise/fitness/yoga asana's should be integrated together in a way that everyone can benefit from it. But, this Western world does not see it that way...oh well, it'll be their own demise. | |
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| GJ:
well, it's one of those instances where my weakness is my strength and my strength is my weakness. one of my strengths is not getting upset about most of the small stuff. but for some, this makes me seem like a pushover or easy target. then, when i finally get to the point where i stand up, ryan says i do it so quickly and well that it just *stops* the person. there's no room for parley. they expect parley or to simply "win."
my lesson, then, is to stand up sooner. when things first start, calmly bring it up and set a boundary. i have been practicing this for two weeks, and i think the universe is just offering me really OBVIOUS opportunities to work out my 'professionalism' and 'stand up soon' muscles.
because a previous me would have laughed at them and let it be, kabitzed with my students about it a bit until it blew over--and the the others think that i'm in agreement, that they've "won" (whatever that means to them). but, because i have to practice standing up sooner, i got a couple of good opportunities.
this was/is one of them.
Jackie:
this is an chain too. but, individually operated. it's one of two gyms owned by one guy.
thankfully, one of the two gyms was recently sold to new owners who really do have their stuff together. i've talked to them at length, and they want to add at least three more yoga classes with me and three more with the other yoga teacher (if she's available) or hiring more yoga teachers for those classes. they want me to talk with the interior designer about setting up a separate yoga/pilates/tai chi room that will have it's own heat/coolling, sound system, clean floors, etc. sounds great to me!
so, it may be that i stop that 1 class at the "bad" gym and then add the classes to the other gym. most of my students are members there already (previously, you could belong to either gym and go to either gym for classes, etc), so only 3 people would have to switch their memberships. I don't know whether or not they will, but they could.
looks like the problem may be resolved in a variety of ways.
Cyndi:
Yes, gym mentality is strange. Ryan wants to collect his own equipment and work out on his own. He doens't need much, since he does so much functional training. he currently goes to the gym where i work (the one that will have new owners) and he thinks the attitude of most people there really stinks (and in gyms in general).
we've talked about starting a small yoga and personal training studio. at the very least, all of m clients could become members and their DHs can use the equipment while the ladies take the yoga class.
we found a building in our cutie down town that might work well--two apartments above, a large space below and a large basement space. we can rent out one apartment, live in the other, use the main floor for entry area, work out space, massage rooms and bathrooms, and use the basement for a bag room of storage and a front, large yoga space (it has "skylights" so even the basement gets natural light.
of course, then we have to decide to stay here. but, it's an option.
LOL it's a nice idea anyway. LOL
UPDATE:
first, nick said he would call and he didn't. I stopped by today and was basically blown off by him. very annoying. anyway, he gave my number (without asking) to the KM instructor who said he was going to call me an apologize.
of course, i still expect him to apologize to the class--because they were very rude to them!
the KM instructor did pay his rent for the last two months, and so they're keeping him on. class time will still be at 8, but they will respect my classroom, my authority over it, and my clients as we are exiting.
otherwise, the gym owner is a really terrible manager. while the issue was handled quickly, the lack of communication and professionalism is extreme.
so, we'll see.
Edited by zoebird 2007-11-09 11:29 AM
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| Cyndi - 2007-11-09 4:01 AM
But, this Western world does not see it that way...oh well, it'll be their own demise.
Cyndi,
You are part of this "Western world". This "Western world", our society is us! This "Western world" includes everyone who lives here (whether born here or not) and how we, each of us, relate to each other. The problem is not "them". It is us; all of us.
Namaste,
Jim | |
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| naw, i think it can be argued that our culture is largely unmindful and that the majority of participants are unmindful while a few of us are striving to be mindful or more mindful.
i think it's fair to say that there is an 'us' and 'them' even though we are all "us" and "them."
----
further update:
Yoga vs Krav Maga--Yoga wins!
apparently, the KM people are being told not to return. the instructor called me to apologize. i insisted that he apologize to the class next wednesday, that he do this in front of his students during his class time.
he didn't want to do this, and i insisted because his harm to them was certainly greater than any harm to me. my ego isn't "that" wrapped up in it. LOL! afterall, he's not the first guy to barge into my room and not 'respect-my-author-i-tye!'
he said he needed to think about it, that he would call me back to let me know.
a few minutes later, i get a call from phil. he informs me that the krav maga people will not be returning. apparently, he told phil that i didn't accept his apology and that what i wanted was unnecessary and to see if Phil could push me to leave or move my class.
phil said that whatever i felt was necessary is necessary, and that if he couldn't do that, then he could find another place.
the guy decided to leave.
wow! leave instead of apologize. crazy.
anyway, i'm glad it's done, and apparently they're going to try and get another class in after that time, and those in the classes before me were reminded to be on time.
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| zoebird - 2007-11-09 1:07 PM
apparently, the KM people are being told not to return. the instructor called me to apologize. i insisted that he apologize to the class next wednesday, that he do this in front of his students during his class time.
he didn't want to do this, and i insisted because his harm to them was certainly greater than any harm to me. my ego isn't "that" wrapped up in it. LOL! afterall, he's not the first guy to barge into my room and not 'respect-my-author-i-tye!'
wow! leave instead of apologize. crazy.
Well, while I completely feel he should apologize, what you're asking from him requires a great deal of humility. He basically has to get up in front of a large number of people, at your request, and apologize. Very humbling. By 'forcing' him into this position, you've taken a position of dominance, which is probably not sitting very well with somebody who is this aggressive.
Regardless, I think it's great that they won't be coming back. They sound like trouble. | |
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| admittedly, GJ, that was part of my intent.
the truth is, you do wrong, you make amends. it's hard to do, it is humbling, but it's still important.
i felt that it was right to defend myself and require this basic human decency. | |
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| zoebird - 2007-11-09 10:07 AM
naw, i think it can be argued that our culture is largely unmindful and that the majority of participants are unmindful while a few of us are striving to be mindful or more mindful.
i think it's fair to say that there is an 'us' and 'them' even though we are all "us" and "them."
zoebird,
Are you saying that if others don't conform to your way of thinking (ie being mindful), that they are "them" (the enemy, or at least a lower type)? The concept of "us" and "them", comes from our primitive tribal survival needs to identify with a tribe for mutual protection. We now live in another social reality where this thinking more often leads to hate, racism, war, and even genocide. The problem with the karate people was a result of their seeing the yoga people as "them". Again, "our culture" is us, whether it is mindful or not. It is the sum total of our relationships.
Namaste,
jimg
Edited by jimg 2007-11-09 2:30 PM
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| jimg - 2007-11-09 2:29 PM
Are you saying that if others don't conform to your way of thinking (ie being mindful), that they are "them" (the enemy, or at least a lower type)?
first, "being mindful" isn't agreeing with my way of thinking. being mindful is typically a series of socially understood and pervasive constructs of basic courtesy. many people are not mindful (courteous) on a regular basis in our current culture, which is demonstrated through their actions.
but, i am not the one "setting the standard." it is a cultural standard.
and i should also add here (edited to), that there are few people who are chronically mindful. thus, i can always be one of "us" the mindful ones while also being one of "them" the unmindful ones at any given time. but i can only judge that according to my own observations, and usually i don't notice when i'm not being mindful until something obvious happens.
Again, "our culture" is us, whether it is mindful or not. It is the sum total of our relationships.
you must not have gotten the nuance of what i said. I asserted that one can be both an "us" and "them" at any given time, and are usually both at all times. this is referential to the fact that we are all a part of "our culture" and that there are differences of standards in "our culture" as a whole based on which 'aspects' or 'subcultures' we belong to.
as yoga people, we might assert that the applied philosophies of yoga are a standard that is "higher" than our general culture, and an evangelical christian group may do the same. And if we go all "dr phil" on it, the only way we can measure whether or not it is "mindful" or "appropriate" behavior is to ask "how's that working for ya?"
if the general culture--which is multifaceted, diverse, and different while still being a larger, cohesive construct (eg, "american culture" or "western culture")--has a sort of general standard, and that standard can increase and decrease over time based on the practices of individuals--we are always an us (the whole culture is an us), and we are also always a "them." and we also always have a "them" because one can say "i am catholic, and those who do not believe like me are not catholic."
it doesn't necessarily breed hatred, genocide, or war to denote that there are differences between sub cultures and different perspectives among individuals. it's not to say that being "other" than the way i think or come to a concept of "mindfulness" is the only way of being or thinking.
but, i also can't accept all behavior as "acceptable" or "mindful" behavior.
i think that most agree that "they" in the KM instructors did this to "us" the yoga class, while we held no animosity towards them or provoked them, have no qualms with them or with KM, and i assume they have no qualms with yoga.
but their behavior was far beyond the basic constructs of our shared, cultural concept of common decency, and it certainly lacked a level of mindfulness in that regard.
thus, i can say that--in that moment--i was "more mindful" than "they" were, and that it is likely that if their future behavior demonstrates the same level of aggression, that "they" are behaving in an unmindful, problematic way.
What's the solution? i believe it's important to have boundaries and social dictates that are liberal enough to allow for personal individuation and freedoms, but that also honor the sovereignty and safety of those around us.
Edited by zoebird 2007-11-09 3:13 PM
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| zoebird - 2007-11-09 2:15 PM
admittedly, GJ, that was part of my intent.
Okay, so my point is that you've basically attempted to face down the teacher of an entire Karate group, by yourself. And you wonder why people are intimidate by you. I think I know why, you've got inner strength. ;)
the truth is, you do wrong, you make amends. it's hard to do, it is humbling, but it's still important.
i felt that it was right to defend myself and require this basic human decency.
I agree, I'm just attempting to point something out. | |
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| zoebird - 2007-11-09 3:06 PM
jimg - 2007-11-09 2:29 PM
Are you saying that if others don't conform to your way of thinking (ie being mindful), that they are "them" (the enemy, or at least a lower type)?
first, "being mindful" isn't agreeing with my way of thinking. being mindful is typically a series of socially understood and pervasive constructs of basic courtesy. many people are not mindful (courteous ) on a regular basis in our current culture, which is demonstrated through their actions.
but, i am not the one "setting the standard." it is a cultural standard.
and i should also add here (edited to ), that there are few people who are chronically mindful. thus, i can always be one of "us" the mindful ones while also being one of "them" the unmindful ones at any given time. but i can only judge that according to my own observations, and usually i don't notice when i'm not being mindful until something obvious happens.
Which brings up an interesting question, when to say something. I've always found it amusing that the book of proverbs contains conflicting advice on this one. There's a verse that says "Confront a fool in his folly." There's another one that says exactly the reverse. There's also another one that says "A wise man welcomes rebuke, but a fool shuns it." So I try to be pretty selective whom I rebuke, since most people just take it as an attack.
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| zoebird,
I don't think that you understood that I was not faulting your behavior in any way or insinuating that the karate folks were anything but totally rude. From the facts that you presented, you were correct to stand up for yourself and your students and I am pleased that it turned out well for you.
When you said "naw, i think it can be argued that our culture is largely unmindful and that the majority of participants are unmindful while a few of us are striving to be mindful or more mindful.", it sounded to me as though you were differentiating between society at large (which is unmindful) and yourself and a few others (who try to be mindful). Whether true or false, this differentiation, this "us" (the mindful ones) and "them" (everyone else) thinking is what leads to conflict and all the resultant suffering. It is tribalism at it's most basic. Look at history. Look at the world today. You can't have this kind of conflict without an "us" and a "them".
z-"because one can say "i am catholic, and those who do not believe like me are not catholic."
it doesn't necessarily breed hatred, genocide, or war."
j-How is this not exactly what has been happening for centuries?
At this point we are having a dialog. It is still all us and us. As soon as one of us starts seeing the other as different from ourself, we no longer have a dialog, but rather a conflict. We must then have a winner and a loser. I am much happier with you and I both winning, as well as our entire global society winning!
Namaste,
jimg | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Oh no, jim!!!  You have got zoebird into lawyer mode!!!! This is a complete no-no on this board. We do not encourage the bird to go into legalese mode. Very frowned upon as it makes for ridiculously long posts (the girl types like the wind!) and we all run out of reading time. Remember, many of us read the boards on company time - not me of course, I work in a place that is in the stone age (or at least crayon age...) as far as communications go - and we don't want to have to explain Green Jello or Bruce to our co-workers. Consider this fair warning. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Most of us have a pretty clear understanding about the "us" and "them" concept. Just because I say that someone is not being mindful or whatever is not that I'm putting my self above or superior to that individual. As yoga aspirants, most of us have the trained ability to see alot of things that most people would not even dare touch upon. Having that said, there is a "right" way, most definitely. There is also "wrong". I don't believe in that airy fairy nonsense of there not being a right or wrong way just to have an excuse for "bad" behavior. That's just BS. Being in this Western world today is like being stuck in a room full of children misbehaving - very badly. About the only thing you can do is "observe" and be a "witness" to their crimes against humanity, nature and our precious earth. Some of us take the road less travelled. We do our darndest to set examples, speak out and represent Truth. We practice what Ghandi said..."We are the change we want the world to bee"....we live from that place and we also observe from that place. No one ever said it was going to be easy...in fact, I see that our world is only going to get worse and worse. The good news is there are people like us who assist others that are ready and willing to accept the truth, are wanting something meaningful in their lives and are looking for someone to help guide them on their path. If ZB feels her challenge is worth all her hard effort, then I support her, 150%. I also support her if she told them all to *** off, too!! | |
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| actually, i did tell him to F-off. to his face, when he put his hands on my student to "usher" her out the door. first, i said back off. and then he got into my face and yelled "you need to get out now!" and while he let go of my friend/student, i said "and you need to back the F off!"
and then i calmly walked across the room and got my things together.
also, i think it can be argued that while some catholics have been in an us/them mentality that has caused war, most modern catholics, or irish, or yoga practitioners, or whatevers, are in a situation where we feel that "live and let live" is the best policy--and that we can see and honor differences, and that we can see and honor what is right and wrong.
i do not really believe, for example, that the neo-nazi agenda is appropriate or helpful. dare i say it--it is wrong. i understand it's impulses and origins, i understand how extreme that "us/them" mentality is. but i also notice that one can be "us/them" about things in a kinder, more obvious way.
I am not an insect. sometimes, too many insects come into my home. i must kill "them" in order to keep my home safe and disease free. one or two of the critters, and it's fine to usher them outside gently. one or two of them--depending on the type--are welcome to move right in (i particularly like spiders in the home, as they usher other bugs into the next life with great gusto). and for the most part, i really like insects, and i also recognize that insects and I are one (from the yoga perspective).
but it doesn't mean that i need to live with a bunch of scorpions in my house, or that i need to say that it's a good idea.
if someone else wants to live with scorpions, that's all fine and dandy--it's not my way. i'm not one of 'Them' (neither scorpion nor one who wants to live with several free roamers in the house). i am with those of "us" who are not scorpions and do not want to live with them in the house.
i have no animosity. i'm not going to start a war against scorpions or scorpion-loving people. i'm not going to be violent towards them.
because i know about and believe in common decency. it's this common decency that allows us to live together as a larger "us" as in, Those Americans Who Love Scorpions and Those Americans Who Do Not Love Scorpions."
now, scorpion pose--i like it. i like to "be" a scorpion in that way. but, other Americans or Westerners or Earthlings or Spirit Beings may not like that so much.
but it's common decency that helps us all get along.
and when one doesn't do what is commonly decent--well, then i think it's important that we're willing to say "hey, that's wrong!"
and, btw, most everyone agrees that unprovoked aggression is inappropriate at the very least.
"the bird" (heheheh ) | |
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| Okay, so my point is that you've basically attempted to face down the teacher of an entire Karate group, by yourself. And you wonder why people are intimidate by you. I think I know why, you've got inner strength. ;)
i have to say, this gave me a chuckle. it's probably true.
i mean, i am strong and that is pretty obvious. i also thought on this a bit more. on the whole thing about me being weird a bit more.
one thing that i realized is that i tend to react to these sorts of things in two ways depending upon the pressures involved.
the basic, of course, is that i can take a lot of annoying behavior/bad behavior from others without much comment, and go through the internal processing of it, and then when i'm finally frustrated, i go from 0-60 for "full stop now!"
this might be passive aggressive (yet to be determined). i mean, at the most basic level, it is by definition. i'm very passive until i feel cornered such that i have to be aggressive to the point of stopping the action. so, ok, seems like the very definition. LOL!
so, depending on the pressures, i have two kinds of aggression. first, if i feel that i need to 'stay' in the situation with the individual (as an employer or whatever), then i shut down completely. i'm polite and professional, basically civil, but there's no warmth. anything the person offers me by way of compliment or criticism, or whatever they may want from me (many want to "help" me with things), anything that is beyond a basic, civil relationship is completely rebuffed, entirely ignored.
this is definitely "passive aggressive." it usually infuriates the other person completely and ultimately they break down in tears. i've noticed this happen a lot. sometimes, it takes only a few days of this "i no longer deal with you" treatment, and for others a few weeks. but typically, the 'authority' who was basically harassing me for days, weeks, or months is incredibly upset and i'm a "cold, had person" who is "unethical and immoral" who has "really wounded them."
it's very interesting. I never understood how hard it can be for people to feel "ignored." I suppose it is hurtful, but it's also self-protective.
the other reaction that i have is to simply stop a person in their tracks with a very direct and emphatic 'cut it out.' it typically scares the crap out of the person, they end up looking shell-shocked while it's happening, and shortly thereafter they're crying about it, and i'm "a cold, hard person" who is "unethical and immoral" and who has "really wounded them."
of course, there's no recognition on their part of *why* i behaved in this hurtful way and there's no recognition of the fact that they were being very annoying at least and at most--and in most cases--quite abusive towards me (usually emotionally).
So, i watched Nature.
I'm sorry already that this post is long for those who are reading in their spare time. Just skip it. LOL
As i watched nature, there was Mama Lioness with her cubs. she's sunning herself and the cubs are playing. they get a bit rough, and she puts her paw on them softly. the settle, then start playing again, getting rough, and she puts the paw on them and gives the "the eye." they settle and then start playing again, getting rough, and this time it's paw, with soft claws slightly out, and the eye. and so it goes, until she gets up and pushes them down to let them know.
my method is they play and play and play and play and play and play and play and when i've had it, i'm claws, teeth, tail ferocious.
And i wondered why they looked shell shocked. why they cried.
silly me.
yes, now i see how it's so darn intimidating. msot people would stand up before and do the parley. most people would set the boundary.
but i give no indication of trouble until i've had enough, and when i've had enough, it's 0-60. it's extreme, then.
Ok, now i get it.
and so, i have to start putting the paw out. And, i had the chance this morning.
same gym, other location, different trainer. he moved the 9:00 abs class into our 9:30 class time without asking or anything. we just show up one day and are told about it. my class kindly moves to 8:30 after much discussion between us as to whether we wanted 8:30 or 10:00. we wanted 9:30, but alas. . .
so, today, i start class at 8:35 and i go until 9:30. I had to wait for the students to get there (there were zero at 8:30 and 6 at 8:35). at 9:25, franko looks in scowling. of course, we have until 9:30 officially. at 9:28, he looks in again, scowling. Each time, i just give him the gimlet eye.
at 9:30, i go and open the door. my folks are cleaning up, his are coming in. he comes in last and angrily asks me to be sure to end my class a little early so that he can get started at 9:30 because he has a 10:00 client...
at this point i gently cut him off and say "franko, i'm not responsible for your scheduling. you chose to move the class to 9:30, and it was gracious of my students to accommodate you without complaint. when you taught before us, you would often end 5 or even 10 minutes late without apology, and we never spoke up about it. today, i ended on time. If you struggle to end you class by 10, perhaps you should put a buffer between your class and your personal training clients. but i'm not responsible for your scheduling, and i'm not going to take attitude or criticism about my class time on account of it."
it was all kind and calm, very clear.
he apologized, mentioned that he's frustrated about something else, and that he was glad we were willing to move our class for him. I said, "no problem" and we left.
So, gentle paw press is enough. if i have to do it again, i can.
but, i'm learning. | |
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| zoebird - 2007-11-09 10:23 PM
the basic, of course, is that i can take a lot of annoying behavior/bad behavior from others without much comment, and go through the internal processing of it, and then when i'm finally frustrated, i go from 0-60 for "full stop now!"
This sounds pretty normal, you don't want to spend all your time calling people on every transgression, that's being overly controlling, and critical.
this might be passive aggressive (yet to be determined).
I don't see it like that at all. Passive aggressive has a lot more to do with indirectly attacking people, particularly in dishonest ways. ie undermining them Usually people who do this don't feel that they have the strength to stand up to the other person, so they do little things to slowly chip away at their strength.
so, depending on the pressures, i have two kinds of aggression. first, if i feel that i need to 'stay' in the situation with the individual (as an employer or whatever), then i shut down completely. i'm polite and professional, basically civil, but there's no warmth. anything the person offers me by way of compliment or criticism, or whatever they may want from me (many want to "help" me with things), anything that is beyond a basic, civil relationship is completely rebuffed, entirely ignored.
Okay, I do the same thing. I don't think there's anything that requires you to like or be nice to somebody. I think it's a lot better for both parties if you are, so I usually try to find something redeeming about the people I have to deal with like this.
it's very interesting. I never understood how hard it can be for people to feel "ignored." I suppose it is hurtful, but it's also self-protective.
Oh, it's incredibly harmful. It's a really really deep seeded drive to, the desire for "strokes" of various kinds. Baby's that don't get held or touched die, and everything grows from this basic need. So when people interact with other people, there's always some stroking going on on some level. Some of it can be very disfunctional, but there's always some stroking going on. By not playing, you are threatening people on some level, but the solution is, ie how to deal with them without losing your integrity, and genuineness is a hard question.
of course, there's no recognition on their part of *why* i behaved in this hurtful way and there's no recognition of the fact that they were being very annoying at least and at most--and in most cases--quite abusive towards me (usually emotionally).
Oh course not, if they really realized what was going on, from your side, or they'd probably do something else. Most people really do have the best intuitions.
at this point i gently cut him off and say "franko, i'm not responsible for your scheduling. you chose to move the class to 9:30, and it was gracious of my students to accommodate you without complaint. when you taught before us, you would often end 5 or even 10 minutes late without apology, and we never spoke up about it. today, i ended on time. If you struggle to end you class by 10, perhaps you should put a buffer between your class and your personal training clients. but i'm not responsible for your scheduling, and i'm not going to take attitude or criticism about my class time on account of it."
it was all kind and calm, very clear.
And you also had a good deal of ammunition by this point, which is one advantage of waiting a bit. Often times I find myself in a situation where I know what's going on almost from day one, but I really don't have anything but my intuition to back it up. By waiting, it becomes much easier to build a good case against it, without the other party claiming that you're wrong, or over-reacting to something. | |
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| tourist - 2007-11-09 7:06 PM
and we don't want to have to explain Green Jello or Bruce to our co-workers.
Awww, I'm hurt. Here I was trying to explain all the nice people on the forum to my lady friend, and telling her about how nice the forum mother from Canada was....
Edited by GreenJello 2007-11-12 9:39 AM
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| it's been interesting to think about this more and read your points as well, GJ.
i think that you're right in that it's not passive aggressive in the sense of trying to undermine someone or some such. and it's certainly not meant to be hurtful. i guess that the basic social expectation is to not stand up for oneself--I guess bullies aren't used to that.
As for 'shutting down.' i'm very 'nice' to people who are not 'in.' i just dont' share with them. it's honest, it's clear, but it's surface. and for some people, that's the worst. they want/need to be number 1 in the group, number 1 in your life, and to have number 1 value. and when they can't be/get/have that, well, then it's very painful for them.
but, i'm not responsible for reactions. i was being self preserving (in the instances where that occurs), for which i am responsible, and perhaps i could say there are often other, better ways to deal with the situation and my own reactions--but ultimately i didnt' do anything to overtly harm anyone, and if one was harmed, it was by their own reaction.
anyway, things to think about. | |
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| zoebird - 2007-11-12 2:21 PM
it's been interesting to think about this more and read your points as well, GJ.
i think that you're right in that it's not passive aggressive in the sense of trying to undermine someone or some such. and it's certainly not meant to be hurtful. i guess that the basic social expectation is to not stand up for oneself--I guess bullies aren't used to that.
I think the social expectation is much more to give in in the name of being harmonious. Most people in our society don't know themselves very well, or what they want, and as a result often don't stand up for their values, because they really don't have any.
I'd also agree that most people are not expecting a yoga teacher to be assertive, and stand up for herself, particularly not a group like you described. Frankly, they sound like a group of thugs who are very used to getting their way through fear and intimidation. It was probably a shock to them to find a yoga teacher that goes against the stereotypical expectations of yoga teachers being wishy-washy.
As for 'shutting down.' i'm very 'nice' to people who are not 'in.' i just dont' share with them. it's honest, it's clear, but it's surface. and for some people, that's the worst. they want/need to be number 1 in the group, number 1 in your life, and to have number 1 value. and when they can't be/get/have that, well, then it's very painful for them.
Okay, I think the word I've had applied to me is "warm". I'm not necessarily warm with people I don't care for, because I don't like them, and I'm not going to fake it.
but, i'm not responsible for reactions. i was being self preserving (in the instances where that occurs), for which i am responsible, and perhaps i could say there are often other, better ways to deal with the situation and my own reactions--but ultimately i didnt' do anything to overtly harm anyone, and if one was harmed, it was by their own reaction.
Agreed, you were in the right.
Edited by GreenJello 2007-11-12 3:57 PM
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have you ever done this?