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| I've read some criticisms of Bikram yoga that it is less "spiritual" than other types of hatha yoga, and that it is even "inauthentic" in some way because its style and focus is more athletic.
I could not disagree more with this assessment! It's easy to make something seem "deep" and "spiritual" by embellishing it in certain ways, but that doesn't mean that it is. In my experience, what makes for an "authentic" "spiritual" practice is sincere, direct engagement with and study of oneself. A Bikram class provides that for me in spades. If anything, even moreso, because the nature of the style and technique makes it more difficult to "get away with" not fully engaging in the poses. I find that a lot of the qualities that help in the daily life of the mind, and my daily home meditation practice, are fostered in Bikram. The class is already helping me with concentration, determination, and effort in ways that carry over outside of the class. Not to mention that the increase in overall energy and physical well-being it provides is certainly helpful in every aspect of my life!
Anyone else have thoughts on this? | |
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| I've met Bikram and his wife Rajashree and read his books and practiced his yoga for 2 years. By his own decree (and you can hear him in his "60 Minutes" interview at his site), we Westerners are not ready for the spirituality aspects of yoga which is why his method is so rigid--to use a non-deviating asana practice to get you to the higher level. I can see your point in that it has you focused but can see the other side in that Bikram out of the box lacks spirituality. | |
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| By his own decree (and you can hear him in his "60 Minutes" interview at his site), we Westerners are not ready for the spirituality aspects of yoga
With the implication that folks in India are on average more "spiritually ready" than Westerners? I think not! Have you ever seen a Bollywood movie? 
In all seriousness, I don't believe any of the hype that one culture is spiritually superior to another, especially in the sense implied here. I suspect that one finds folks who "get it" and folks who don't in any given culture in the world.
Not that I take offense to Bikram's many opinions on this and that, I just don't share them.
Bikram out of the box lacks spirituality.
I understand what you--and others who make this claim--are saying, but I disagree with it. Playing a New Age CD, ringing a gong, and doing a few chants doesn't make something spiritual. That just gives it a certain aesthetic. Of course, it all boils down to one's personal sensibility about what makes something "spiritual" (whatever that word means). To some people, a gentler environment is more conducive to a calmer, more peaceful state of mind. My personality responds more to the environment in a Bikram class--I find it helps me focus and "purge" negative emotions and distraction that I often bring into the class with me.
I guess my main point is that the claim (even by Bikram himself!) that the class is "less spiritual" will only be true for certain people with a certain aesthetic. The deeper (and corollary) point to that is that one must ask, how are some things "spiritual" and some things not? Is sitting and chanting "Om" more spiritual than sitting on the subway? Is doing a yoga class more "spiritual" than an aerobics class? Some people would argue "Yes," but I would argue "No." I have a very committed spiritual search and practice--it takes up more of my time and energy than anything else in my life--and the more I practice, the more that distinctions like this between the "sacred" and the "mundane" seem like religious dogma and less like the real truth of the way things are. | |
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| I would imagine it depends on one's definition of spirituality and also on what purpose this invidual takes on any type of yoga classes. | |
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| I think Bikram's deeper argument is that spirituality can't really be taught, and that many of the people who run around claiming to be "spiritual" don't really know what that means. He also says in print somewhere that if you just create a perfect quiet space in your home, burn some incense, light some candles, play music, turn off all the phones, and sit and meditate for a while, all you get is a fat ass. He's very much in line with that quote - I forget where it's from - "it's easy to be a holy man on the top of a mountain." His version is: anyone can be calm sitting in a quiet room. But now imagine that you're stuck in LA rush hour traffic, it's 100 degrees outside, your car windows won't open, your cell phone is dead, you're late for the most important interview of your life, and you REALLY have to pee - if you can be calm in THAT moment, THEN you are a yogi. That is meditation, Bikram-style!
On a personal level, I totally agree with jivasana that Bikram's class can be very spiritual at times. I find a tremendous meditative quality in the ritual of the daily class. I am becoming calmer, more collected, and even more philosophical in my daily life. I feel more connected to the people around me - I would even go so far as to use the word "love" sometimes to describe my feelings toward others. I feel like bit by bit, I am figuring out my place in the world. To me, that is spirituality. Furthermore, this is something that i would NEVER have gotten out of an overtly spiritual "woo woo" class, because the scientist and skeptic in me would be totally turned off by someone TELLING me how to feel. I LOVE that there is none of that in Bikram's class, becuase it allows you to develop your own practice at your own pace, and it comes to you bit by bit, organically and naturally. | |
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| bikram classes seem to appeal to many aspects of american mentality.i can say this with much experience of being in bikram yoga classes.
i have heard many refer to it is the "McYoga" of yoga.
bikram yoga is comfortable for many people because everything happens with such intensity that one leaves feeling completely sterile, as one mentioned previously, that they "purged" all "toxins" or negativities from their body/mind. pushing ones body to such an extreme, due to the heat, compression, and especially the absense of important allignment instruction lets people leave feeling as if they really accomplished quite a bit.
bikram also appeals to many that have little interest in what yoga is beyond the physical asanas. this is really too bad. i have attempted to engage many bikram teachers about yoga beyond what occurs within a bikram studio, and they really have very little knowledge at all. and on top of that, they really don't care.
i do believe that people can certainly create their own spiritual attachment to bikram yoga, that's fine. however, i do wish that bikram practitioners would venture outside of what is presented to them.
yoga should engage the mind a little more than what i have come to experience in bikram yoga.
Edited by monpetitvulcan 2008-01-20 11:58 PM
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| A very civil thread, thus far:-)
And it is obvious MPV makes an eloquent case with the text just above me here.
To me, Yoga must manifest in one's life, which, ideally, is a concept beyond "yoga must manifest in one's body". Spirituality is a contrite label. And I'd have to agree that burning noxious incense in unventilated rooms thrust upon the olfactory of those coming in the door is not spiritual. It's not even "nice".
Often these threads are like pendulums. And we as yogis must watch that very action. No one is saying Bikram yoga will be more spiritual if there are gongs, an altar, incense, and some Deva Premal. Likewise it would not be so that removing them from your local yoga spot would make that place devoid of spirituality.
What I believe we are talking about is a method of conveying the practice in such a way as to empower the student to connect with their soul, spirit, light, central axis. Self discovery is necessary for the process but is it not synonymous. Just as sitting and stilling the mind is not meditation, it is a prerequsite for meditation (in the philosophy put forth by Sri Aurobindo).
If the practice is working for the student, if their relationships reflect growth - with the Self, their partner, and the planet, then there's efficacy to their practice. That practice may have little or no efficacy for me, however. We must each determine if and how our practice empowers evolution for us and to what level that occurs. Only then can we ascertain if a certain practice is appropriate and then only if it is appropriate for us, not for all.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-01-21 2:09 AM
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| Yes, I am impressed with the conversation so far. Very polite. 
Personally, I have a very low threshold for pseudo-spirituality and get very turned off very quickly with those who do the gong/incense/"deep thoughts" thing. And coming from a yoga background (Iyengar) that is also often said to be "less spiritual", I am familiar with the topic. It is good to have a gateway to yoga that does not turn off people like me! For many, styles such as Bikram and Iyengar are the perfect introduction to yoga, allowing the spiritual side to develop as the practice prepares the field, as it were. In Iyengar, the spiritual is introduced as the students are ready. A famous quote by some senior teacher in answering a question about karma or some other spiritual idea is: "ask me that again after you have learned to keep your kneecaps lifted."
The question for me around this in regard to Bikram is - where does the student go to find these answers if Bikram teachers are not prepared to answer them at all? | |
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| Tourist asked: "where does the student go to find these answers if Bikram teachers are not prepared to answer them at all?" Glenda, I'm shocked! Those with questions come here of course  No need to thank us, it's what we do. | |
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| Truly anything can be spiritual, I can run (or fill in the blank) and feel a deep connection to the spirit. I think that Bikram is beneficial in the sense that it uses no music and you need to focus on your own image. That is very powerful. Ofcourse if all that you care about is having a lean body you won't pick up the spiritual side, but that can be true even if you go to a holy site or "spiritual" studio. Like Toursit said, these are great gateways to deepen your practice. Hope that made sense | |
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| Spiritual is how you look at any activity or non-activity. People falsely become "spiritual" characters acting out the role of a "spiritual" character. Its no different then the guy in the three piece suit and briefcase who makes his presentation as the "business guy". The most connected people in the world would suprise you as to their appearance and the way they "act". They are not conditioned to the norms of society and you would never know how far they have evolved.
That being said is Bikram a valid spiritual PRACTISE. I can see how people may view it in terms of its rigid approach and physical application. But anything that stills your mind through focus and concentration is a great spiritual practise, wether your aware of that aspect or not. By doing the same series over and over again it removes a lot of your minds wishes to do something "different" or "exciting". There's a lot of meditation type quality to Bikram. I have been medidating for over 10 years and I feel a lot of mediatation during bikram.
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Location: Oregon | I have never heard a Bikram's practitioner say they leave the studio sterile. I can attest to at least purging some emotions. However, that last part absense of important allignment instruction lets people leave feeling as if they really accomplished quite a bit is quite dismissive. No one can know what another is getting out of their Yoga practice.
I've practiced in 10 different studios and with 20+ different teachers and seen some that don't stray from the dialogue, sure. And I've seen it more of a crutch. I have a great home studio. One that does far more than most, both by weaving their own personal practice into the dialogue and by giving individual adjustments to students.
In my Iyengar studio and the other studio I attend, there's less corrections. So it baffles me that Bikrams teachers and practitioners have this reputation as a being unthinking or not venturing outside of what is presented. I'll say again, I do see the dialogue as being a crutch. But the plus side is that you really do get to know the postures.
Bruce hit on one of the quotes of Bikram I've paraphrased before... that before you can still the mind, you need to be able to still the body. That is very true for me. I don't think I would have understood the Sutras had I not found stillness in the studio, first. I do crave more than Bikrams now, but I always return to the series and the heat. | |
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| Wow, what a wonderful discussion has unfurled here! A lot of good stuff.
thedancingj: I think Bikram's deeper argument is that spirituality can't really be taught, and that many of the people who run around claiming to be "spiritual" don't really know what that means. He also says in print somewhere that if you just create a perfect quiet space in your home, burn some incense, light some candles, play music, turn off all the phones, and sit and meditate for a while, all you get is a fat ass. He's very much in line with that quote - I forget where it's from - "it's easy to be a holy man on the top of a mountain." His version is: anyone can be calm sitting in a quiet room. But now imagine that you're stuck in LA rush hour traffic, it's 100 degrees outside, your car windows won't open, your cell phone is dead, you're late for the most important interview of your life, and you REALLY have to pee - if you can be calm in THAT moment, THEN you are a yogi. That is meditation, Bikram-style!
I had to quote this in full because it resonates with my own thoughts and feelings so strongly. I find Bikram's personality entertaining and refreshing--there's no chance of him being knocked off the "guru pedestal" for being exposed as "unholy," as he does quite a good job of exposing himself!
Anyway... I am a Zen practitioner of a few years now, my level of formal involvement with a "sangha" (practicing group with a teacher) sporadic, but with a strong, committed zazen (meditation) practice and struggle toward morality and wisdom in my daily life. I have sat a few sesshin--silent meditation retreats--and even though there are moments in such retreats of calm and peace, they're hell a lot of the time, quite frankly! The body hurts, the mind is bored or panicked, one becomes supremely attuned to one's neighbor's farts...  
But the point is that this is the very reason such a retreat is so useful. It forces you to see the extent that *you* drive your own misery, and that the choice to relinquish "hellish mind" is always your own. I firmly believe that there is no "one size fits all" religion or spiritual practice, but I know that for my personality type at the very least a Bikram studio is more "spiritual" than one that put a lot of emphasis on teaching yoga philosophy, chanting, etc. The stress of the environment acts to focus my mind in a way that most definitely extends beyond the studio.
Of course, if I was going to yoga as my "one-stop-spirituality-shop," as in, if I didn't seek spiritual teaching and training elsewhere, I might struggle to put what I did in the studio in a framework to carry out of it, which perhaps is what some people are talking about here. But that's another thing I like about it--that it's such a precise, but such a basic situation, that one can make of it what one makes of it, whether that be a fitness regime or a spiritual, meditative practice.
thedancingj: I feel more connected to the people around me - I would even go so far as to use the word "love" sometimes to describe my feelings toward others. I feel like bit by bit, I am figuring out my place in the world. To me, that is spirituality. Furthermore, this is something that i would NEVER have gotten out of an overtly spiritual "woo woo" class, because the scientist and skeptic in me would be totally turned off by someone TELLING me how to feel. I LOVE that there is none of that in Bikram's class, becuase it allows you to develop your own practice at your own pace, and it comes to you bit by bit, organically and naturally.
Yes!! Exactly. And that "love" thing you're talking about? I've been feeling it too, though it preceded Bikram for me. But I definitely find my struggle with how I see and respond to others to be the crux of my spiritual practice. Even today, I visited the Rubin Museum--great place, by the way, to any other New Yorkers interested in the art and culture of Himalayan civilizations--and found, amidst my lofty "spiritual" thoughts about this or that, there was a running tape of my various complaints and gripes about the other people around me. People who were "obnoxious" or "shallow" or "loud," etc. Thankfully, I've become able to catch myself in my hypocrisy, and instead of trying to further validate those assessments, I looked at them critically, and relinquished them as they arose, dedicating myself to love over and over again. Very simple, very rewarding. Anyway, I think I'm off topic now... 
Edited by jivasana 2008-01-21 9:25 PM
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monpetitvulcan: bikram classes seem to appeal to many aspects of american mentality.i can say this with much experience of being in bikram yoga classes.
i have heard many refer to it is the "McYoga" of yoga.
bikram yoga is comfortable for many people because everything happens with such intensity that one leaves feeling completely sterile, as one mentioned previously, that they "purged" all "toxins" or negativities from their body/mind. pushing ones body to such an extreme, due to the heat, compression, and especially the absense of important allignment instruction lets people leave feeling as if they really accomplished quite a bit.
monpetitvulcan--you eloquently air a lot of the opinions I've encountered elsewhere and with which I disagree. But I would have to say that nonetheless, my biggest objection to a lot of your criticisms is that they are vague.
What do you mean by "McYoga," for example? Is it because the same exact sequences of actions are done in the same exact way at every studio? Then if that is the objection, would you object to Catholicism as "McChristianity"? Or is it the fact that--like most any other yoga studio--Bikram studios charge a fee?
Also, what do you mean by "American mentality"? Whose "American mentality"? Thoreau's? Walt Whitman's? Martin Luther King's? I personally don't at all see America or "The West" (whatever that means) as spiritually bankrupt. Certainly, there is a lot of rampant materialism in our society, and I share in others' critiques of it. But I have never experienced my fellow Americans as lacking spiritual drive or acumen.
As for your claim that there is a lack of alignment instruction--I have insights about proper alignment in every class I take. I've learned even more about alignment than I did in the Iyengar classes I took, simply by virtue of repetition. Certainly, the alignment instruction in Bikram is not as thorough as I experienced in Iyengar, but I could not say it is at all absent! So much of the "dialogue" in each class seems to me to focus very specifically on alignment issues--how to rotate the torso in Half Moon, how to fully engage the spine in Dhanurasana, how to achieve balance in the standing series through engaging the standing leg and aligning the body properly in the pose, etc.
purnayoga: What I believe we are talking about is a method of conveying the practice in such a way as to empower the student to connect with their soul, spirit, light, central axis. Self discovery is necessary for the process but is it not synonymous. Just as sitting and stilling the mind is not meditation, it is a prerequsite for meditation (in the philosophy put forth by Sri Aurobindo).
purnayoga--you express well what seems to be the main criticism of Bikram, and I can certainly see what the criticism is based upon. There's really no "spiritual framework" offered in the class, beyond some instructors' personal ways of incorporating descriptions of their own way of connecting with soul, spirit, light, etc., into the dialogue at times. And again, I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who already has a spiritual study and practice outside of the Bikram studio and finds Bikram practice complementary to it. But I can certainly see that someone might not "get" the spiritual angle if they came looking for it. But perhaps I am simply an optimist, as I believe that people driven to search for more of a spiritual framework will ultimately find one, whether it be in or through yoga or something else.
Ram: Spiritual is how you look at any activity or non-activity. People falsely become "spiritual" characters acting out the role of a "spiritual" character. Its no different then the guy in the three piece suit and briefcase who makes his presentation as the "business guy". The most connected people in the world would suprise you as to their appearance and the way they "act". They are not conditioned to the norms of society and you would never know how far they have evolved.
Exactly!! So well said. That is something I have encountered in any spiritual community or milieu in which I have moved, the way some people rush to put on a costume or--pardon the pun--get into a certain pose, and then that costume or pose becomes the entirety of their spirituality. Then it's just another ego-game, another identity to hang onto oneself and fuss and preen over. I find that the prerequisite for a "genuine spirituality"--not that I'm trying to dismiss or disenfranchise anyone, give me a moment to explain--is a deep yearning. Everybody's life is their own genuine life, and I personally believe--it is a central tenet of my spiritual beliefs, actually--that this individual life is always meaningful and worthwhile.
But it does happen that some of us--and I have been one--construct a "False Self" out of who we think we should be or would like to be that obscures some of the facts of who we really are. So spirituality becomes a struggle to discard or make over the despised part of us--it becomes a sickness. Sometimes the costume becomes a disease. That's why I find the atmosphere in the Bikram studio to be such a tonic. Some people do not have these particular issues of the False Self and the costume, but again, my point is simply that the stark simplicity of a Bikram class can be a very effective spiritual practice for some of us for its lack of these things. | |
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| Bruce - 2008-01-21 10:57 AM
Tourist asked: "where does the student go to find these answers if Bikram teachers are not prepared to answer them at all?" Glenda, I'm shocked! Those with questions come here of course No need to thank us, it's what we do.
I know Bruce is just playing here, but I think there's quite a bit of truth here! First, I do agree that many Bikram teachers may not be prepared to address questions of spirituality - not because they are bad teachers, but because a) it's not part of their training, for the same reason that it's not an explicit part of the class and b) there are a LOT of very NEW Bikram teachers out there who may not be at a point in their own practice where they are asking themselves these questions. There are a lot of different teachers at my studio with different amounts of teaching experience. There are some who I could talk to about anything and everything, including this topic, and others who I don't believe would have any idea what I was talking about.
And that's why we turn to... our peers! Not necessarily on internet message boards (tho those are great!) - but other students can be great resources. Sure, not everyone wants to talk about the spiritual aspect of the process - but on the flip side, when you run into someone who IS interested and you get them talking, it will be hard to get them to quiet down again!! It's a great example of a time when students can begin sharing their experiences and becoming each other's teachers, which can be quite beautiful.
This is a great conversation - I'm so impressed with us.
Jivasana - I'm glad my post resonated with you! I think that we are on the same wavelength... | |
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| A thought-provoking question and a clarification, if I may.
jivasana
focus very specifically on alignment issues--how to rotate the torso in Half Moon, how to fully engage the spine in Dhanurasana, how to achieve balance in the standing series through engaging the standing leg and aligning the body properly in the pose, etc.
Does this perspective allow for the difference between actions and alignments?
purnayoga: What I believe we are talking about is a method of conveying the practice in such a way as to empower the student to connect with their soul.....
purnayoga--you express well what seems to be the main criticism of Bikram, and I can certainly see what the criticism is based upon. There's really no "spiritual framework" offered in the class, beyond some instructors' personal ways of incorporating descriptions of their own way of connecting with soul, spirit, light, etc., into the dialogue at times
This was not a critique of a style of yoga. Nor was it intended as a reflection of one style (or another). It is merely a relevant question facing yogi's in 2008. In what way(s) are we facilitating evolution through our practice? For if the answer is "we are not" then what exactly are we doing?
To me this is a relevant question whether you are doing Viniyoga with Gary Kraftsow, Ashtanga with David Swenson, Iyengar with Manouso Manos, or jivamukti with Sharon Gannon.
Edited by purnayoga 2008-01-22 1:46 AM
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| I think there is a few factors at play here:
1. The clientele of Bikram Yoga is quite diverse, and there are many people who don't know the first thing about yoga that goto Bikram. Different clients are looking for different things and not everyone that goes is looking for a spiritual practice initially.
2. The series of 26 poses and two breathing exercises is a beginning yoga class. I mean, the book is called Bikram beginning yoga class.
3. Having said this, a consistent practice can be the first steps in a lifelong spiritual journey. I shouldn't merely say consistent practice, I should say mindful focused practice. There are many paths towards enlightenment and not all of them involve chanting, gongs, etc. Much like Zen in the Art of Archery, I think a very mindful repetitious physical practice can give great spiritual progress as well.
4. I think it's unfair to say that some of the Bikram teachers are not knowledgable enough about the spiritual aspects of Yoga, therefor Bikram Yoga as a whole is less spiritual. Every teacher is different and the teachers themselves are on their own journeys. I think saying - "this person is spiritual, and this person is not." sets you on a very slippery slope. My experience has been that the Bikram teachers vary quite a bit in quality.
5. I do think it is fair to say that the Bikram studios to not go out of their way to emphasize the spiritual aspects of yoga as a whole. Still I would not be surprised if there are many students who initially attend class hoping for physical benefits and discover spiritual benefits almost by accident. | |
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| i have to say that when i first heard "MCyoga" myself i felt my feathers ruffle up a bit, as this criticism, among many others, certainly distressed me. But as time went on and i compared my experiences in bikram with other 'types' of yoga, i felt many of the critiques were on point.
Thus by MCyoga i am referring to: how the dialague points to extreme and even excessive manners of pushing oneself to the limit and not paying attention to allignment before assuming extreme bends and compressions. Much in the dialogue is candy-coated, lacks depth, and is flat out dangerous.
Bikram's dialogue makes, for example, backbends to be rather simplistic. The fact that one is flexbile in the lumbar coupled with the teachers encouragement of bending to ones maximum paves the roads for sore and at times tweaked muscles. And to be doing actions repeatedly that are excessive teaches the body poor allignment. bikram has certainly provided me with strength, but in awkward areas. i feel that this ideas bleeds beyond the tangible in regards to Bikram.
i do however see people benefitting from this yoga in the way that humans of course benefit from many forms of physical exercise.
Jivasana--i could reply to you regarding your question on christianity, however, i chose to refrain from sharing on such an sensitive matter. also, we obviously have different ideas of what is the american mentality, especially in reference to spirituality...
As for alignment in bikram yoga, well, i have had to learn it elsewhere in order to bring my personal allignment into the heated room.
Edited by monpetitvulcan 2008-01-22 3:13 AM
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| People are spiritual or non-spiritual. The yoga itself is neither spiritual or non-spiritual. Calling it McYoga implies that everyone who is practicing Bikram is doing so with anything less than an open heart and mind, and is therefore presumptuous and condescending. Anyone can be superficial in any action, and anyone can be earnest and spiritual in most actions. Drawing these lines between different yoga practices and making sweeping generalizations about millions of people based on those small, blurred lines, seems like a huge waste of time.
Seems painfully obvious to me.
I have been practicing Bikram for close to two years and find it to be a very intense spiritual experience for me. I know others who feel the same way. I also know people who practice Ashtanga and seem to only be concerned with long, lithe muscles and their appearance. Still, I wouldn't venture to speak for them, since I don't know what is in the heart and what drives their practice. I would hope you can all do the same for people who practice Bikram.
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| This is a common misunderstanding of the Ghoshs lineage. The Ghosh lineage chooses physical culture first, before spiritual culture. The way it is taught is to fix the body first. Eliminate your physical, mental and emotional issues, so you will not be distracted in meditation and spiritual practices.
We use asana to cultivate faith, self discipline, determination, concentration and patience. The mental aspects we view as necessary for a disciplined meditation practice.
Having said that, the trend recently is that most schools from the Ghosh lineage DO NOT really even talk about the spirit or meditation. | |
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| thedancingj - 2008-01-21 7:48 PM
And that's why we turn to... our peers! Not necessarily on internet message boards (tho those are great!) - but other students can be great resources. Sure, not everyone wants to talk about the spiritual aspect of the process - but on the flip side, when you run into someone who IS interested and you get them talking, it will be hard to get them to quiet down again!! It's a great example of a time when students can begin sharing their experiences and becoming each other's teachers, which can be quite beautiful.
Although there are many resources out there (teachers, peers, books), whatever happened to looking inside yourself to answer your "spiritual" questions? If you don't actually experience the answer to your questions and rely on what someone said or wrote, you are just repeating words, someone else's, not even your own!
This thread is wonderful! It is great to see that there are so many yoga people who see that "spirituality" has nothing to do with gongs, incense or exotic dogma. I think that real "spirituality" is a quality of an action or non-action, and has nothing to do with the action or non-action itself. So whether you practice Bikram, Astanga, Iyengar or whatever, it is really about HOW you do it!!! Personally, I believe that each individual should develop their OWN "unique" yoga style that is new every day to meet the needs of that day.
Edited by jimg 2008-01-22 4:03 PM
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| To me, McYoga means it is ubiquitous, easy entry, not expensive and accessible to all who want it. It is burgers and fries, not a gourmet banquet and makes no apologies for that. You also won't get the hovering waiter who expects a big tip in return for his exemplary service - ie, not a lot of personal attention. Not derogatory to me, just different.
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| very diplomatic, sisTourist
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i'da gotten some big tips for my class tonight!
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Location: Oregon | The times I've heard it called McYoga definitely has a derogatory edge to it: like McDonalds, the burger/experience is always the same, uninteresting, cheap, made for the masses, etc.
It is interesting to examine that angle. I do like the consistency of the series. (Though I am growing weary of the dialogue and some of the push.) If I go to a restaurant I usually seek out independent, unique restaurants. However, if I look at the restaurants I frequent, say compared to a chain experience, I don't see how I'm much different from someone who likes McDonalds because of the sameness or the consistency of the product--there's a sameness in those independant restaurants.
So, in coming full circle, when I hear McYoga, I hear it as a put down. And I wonder why people feel the need to knock it. | |
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| There's a pretty impressive yoga operation in Austin, Texas that people call McYoga--it's Yoga Yoga, they have four studios surrounding the city, a wealth of classes, child care, a teacher training program and workshops contstantly with David Swenson, Donna Fahri, Seane Corn, etc. The reason I hear from most folks using that term is because although the business model is impressive and successful and the owners/managment team really work hard to bring yoga to the region, you show up for a class and you don't know who'll be serving you--like McDonald's--it doesn't matter who does the product/service delivery. The same holds true for Bikram from what I see--the series and the monologue are the same. | |
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| DJ Dre - 2008-01-23 9:48 AM
The times I've heard it called McYoga definitely has a derogatory edge to it: like McDonalds, the burger/experience is always the same, uninteresting, cheap, made for the masses, etc.
It is interesting to examine that angle. I do like the consistency of the series. (Though I am growing weary of the dialogue and some of the push.) If I go to a restaurant I usually seek out independent, unique restaurants. However, if I look at the restaurants I frequent, say compared to a chain experience, I don't see how I'm much different from someone who likes McDonalds because of the sameness or the consistency of the product--there's a sameness in those independant restaurants.
So, in coming full circle, when I hear McYoga, I hear it as a put down. And I wonder why people feel the need to knock it. The same reason that people knock or judge most things: insecurity. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | you show up for a class and you don't know who'll be serving you
An interesting take on this, that I heard from a Bikram studio owner no less, as to why she doesn't post a schedule for who's teaching is because she feels showing up and practicing with whoever is teaching, being open to what they offer even if there are personality differences... is part of the yoga. In that context, it's the difference you shouldn't try to avoid. | |
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Regular
Posts: 90
| DJ Dre - 2008-01-23 1:44 PM
you show up for a class and you don't know who'll be serving you
An interesting take on this, that I heard from a Bikram studio owner no less, as to why she doesn't post a schedule for who's teaching is because she feels showing up and practicing with whoever is teaching, being open to what they offer even if there are personality differences... is part of the yoga. In that context, it's the difference you shouldn't try to avoid. My experience has been that the subtle differences between teachers accentuates some parts of the practice BECAUSE the dialog is supposed to te the same. Each teacher at my studio is different and I really like that. I don't target specific classes because of who is teaching, but I do get something different from each of them.
I just think this is more generalizing based on supposition and isolated incidents...a common theme on this Bikram forum. | |
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| I believe the same instructions you recieve and the difficult aspect of Bikram helps put you develop a strong concentrated mind. A strong concentrated mind is paramount to a good mediation practise. Both go hand in hand.
I can see how people wouldnt equate Bikram with "spiritualism". Our conditioned minds expect some guru type person with a very low toned voice waving incense sticks and repeating a mantra to qualify as "spiritual". While this can be true and in my Siddha Yoga intensives we do a lot of chanting and meditation. If you study the history of great beings a lot of their teachings are very simple and are designed to still the mind and crush the ego. One guru had his disciple pick up cow dung for ten years. Now would anyone here consider that "spiritual"?
As for the McYoga label that is funny. I can see how the franchised business model of Bikram creates that "corporate" feel. But again making money might be something that people have an aversion too but we have to be practical in life too. Making money and accepting making money is part of any life, spiritual or non-spiritual. Living on the street corner with a potato sack and not having any money to eat doesnt make you "spiritual". | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
Location: Oregon | Alot of people don't know this, but Bikram doesn't make money via a franchise fee. He protects his brand like a franchise, ie: you have to get permissiona use his name, take his training, be recertified every three years, submit a business plan, do area research, just like any other application for a franchise. But. One studio owner I talked to said he doesn't actually charge a franchise fee. I don't know if that's still the case, but that's what I've heard. | |
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| He charges an application fee when you apply to open your studio and is working on the franchise agreement. Once it is finalized studios will have to pay a franchise fee, but I am hearing it is going to be nominal. | |
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| I'll take Bikram for what it is and I don't want to knock it because I like how I feel after. However, I love the personal attention and feedback I get in other styles of yoga and being able to ask questions. I have a predilection for the music, gongs and churchy (spiritual) feel of other places. Is churchy a word? Also, what I like about Bikram is that it brings up these issues we are talking about here, it cuts through spiritual materialism, and it totally works my shit, pushes my buttons and forces me to face my judgements about myself and other people. Nice thread. | |
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| For those of you who think that Bikram is less "spiritual" please read the previous thread "male clothing".
FYI
The Lingam (male penis) is a symbol for the worship of the Hindu deity Shiva. The use of this symbol for worship is an ancient tradition in India extending back at least to the early Indus Valley civilization.
Origin
The origins of the worship of the Shiva-Linga are unknown. Some associate them with the famous hymn in the Atharva-Veda Samhitâ sung in praise of the Yupa-Stambha, the sacrificial post. In that hymn a description is found of the beginningless and endless Stambha or Skambha and it is shown that the said Skambha is put in place of the eternal Brahman.
Another theory is that Shiva linga might have been originated from the erect memorial topes of Buddhists consecrated in the memory of Buddha. The very poor, who were unable to build big monuments, used to express their devotion to him by dedicating miniature substitutes for them.
Etymology
Monier-Williams explicitly explains lingam as: "The sign of gender.. organ of generation .. The male organ or Phallus (esp. that of Siva worshipped in the form of a stone or marble column which generally rises out of a yoni").
This gives a little historical and "spiritual" background on the wearing of Speedos.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Jim - you just gave me incentive to pay more attention to the Bikram thread.
And congratulations - you just got your thousandth post! | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| It depends what your definition of spirtuality is. Bikram himself said "if its not hurting you are not trying hard enough". So if you associate causing yourself pain and not being gentle, caring and sensitive to yourself as spirtual then it is. If Bikram wants to go on a spiritual magical mystery tour with his yoga technique, that is his freedom to do so. It is however good to remember that yoga is a science and 'spirtitual' western description of yoga originally came from christianized versions of yoga texts. | |
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| vibes - 2010-07-03 5:07 AM
It depends what your definition of spirtuality is. Bikram himself said "if its not hurting you are not trying hard enough". So if you associate causing yourself pain and not being gentle, caring and sensitive to yourself as spirtual then it is..
While I agree that pain is your body telling you something that should not be ignored, all growth has a certain amount of pain or discomfort involved. You do not grow your muscles or your mind by staying within your comfort zone and leaving your comfort zone (physically, mentally or emotionally) is often painful and usually not comfortable.
Bikram's philosophy is exactly what some people need for growth, it is also a recipe for injury for others. People who baby themselves need their ass kicked from time to time. People who push themselves all the time need to learn to relax, be gentle and accept.
If you have a single philosophy that fits all people at all times, you have dogma, not the intelligent application of whatever is best for a unique individual at one unique point in time.
Personally, I find a very vigorous practice ideal for me at some times and a very gentle, restorative practice ideal at other times. Bottom line: be aware of what you need at this time and do it.
Warning: Discomfort in or near your joints, or in your spine (including neck) should ALWAYS be avoided as it is dangerous.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Yes, learning can be uncomfortable. But to repeat the same discomfort is not learning and is simply unintelligent. You can allow the border between comfort and discomfort to improve by learning gently. Any good scientist will tell you that where there is will there is no skill. e.g. a young, big, strong martial artist being unable to defeat a small, gentle elderly martial arts master. | |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| vibes - 2010-07-04 2:14 AM
where there is will there is no skill..
????? | |
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| I always thought that you need will to develop a skill. I have some advanced skills in certain areas, and believe me, there is a lot of will involved.
I'm sure that Glenda (Tourist) and her husband are not improving their ballroom dancing skills without a whole lot of will!
You develop a skill through practice.
You need will to start that practice every day. You need will to focus while practicing. You need will to attempt something difficult. You need will to face your fears. You need will to accept your weaknesses and work on them (instead of just doing what you do well). You need will for the continual honest personal self assessment that is part of practice. You need will to be more aware of exactly what you are doing, focusing on each and every detail. You need will to ignore the details and just dance the dance or just play the music. You need will to physically and mentally relax. You need will to perform any action. Without action we are dead.
Edited by jimg 2010-07-04 1:43 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| No worries. Funny as I used to think the same thing too. I feel it is quite common.Even in school I remember we were told to try harder often, or use more will power. The fact is, nothing in school is hard as is nothing in yoga when properly understood. Maths is easy, as is english, physics and chemistry when understood.
When we dont understand something there is a tendency to try harder with more will.
Things you feel that are difficult are easier when you understand them. When you use will power it is harder to feel what you are doing. When you know what you are doing you can do what you want. Focusing on details is about bringing your attention to some details which does not require will power in myself and many others I know. If I was to pour icy cold water over you, would you need will power to be aware of that detail. There is nothing in modern neurology that says that either.I hope you find inner calm organically without the need to use will power. I also wish that every yogi/yoga student and human being finds inner peace in themselves rather than using will power to try to live a better life so that it is not their true nature so they may suffer later in life.
Its nice to see children learning to swim. You suddenly see a state they reach when they dont have to try so hard with will and can feel what to do through learning how to learn to swim with feeling and what neurologists describe as sensory motor learning which is only achieved through minimizing will/effort. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| I love bringing martial arts up and it may help some peeps too, so here I go- Without will power one can learn to be powerful without investing alot of power. When you see great martial arts masters, you see the way they move is flawless, easy and light, yet still strong and accurate. Most of their students cant do it and need effort and will. Some will try and immitate the masters moves.But immitating his moves in itself with will does not give you the ability. Its similar in the yoga world too. | |
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| vibes - 2010-07-04 2:45 PM
When you see great martial arts masters, you see the way they move is flawless, easy and light, yet still strong and accurate. Most of their students cant do it and need effort and will.
Absolutely true, except you are ignoring that the martial arts masters used many years of will power and hard work to achieve the effortless state.
The master that I learned Taekwondo from (I am a black belt and believe me, that requires much will and effort), started TKD as a small child, worked very hard for years, became the Korean national collegiate champion, went on to win world martial arts championship and was pictured on the cover of many international martial arts magazines. I have seen him break eight one inch thick boards held together with a single kick. I have seen him catapult himself high in the air and break two boards, about 8 feet apart and 8 feet high, at the same time while doing the splits high in the air. He has speed, flexibility and accuracy that seems almost impossible. He can now do many amazing things with no appearance of effort. That does not mean that it is without will or effort, only that he is wasting no effort and focusing all his effort on a single point. This is the fruit of effort, not the lack of effort.
I have played the French Horn for 47 years, many of them professionally. I have played at a very high level and have played with people of the very highest level, in the USA, Germany, Switzerland and Vienna. Many people who see me play comment on how I can play difficult things with no apparent effort. This could not be more untrue. Not only are many thousands of hours of effort required to appear effortless, the effortlessness itself is the result of both will and effort.
When one is relaxed and focused, it appears effortless. It is not. Appearances are often deceiving.
When you are facing an opponent in martial arts sparring, believe me that it takes a whole lot of will to be relaxed and focused. When you are playing a very difficult solo with an orchestra, it also takes a supreme amount of will to be relaxed and focused.
Either you are just repeating something that you heard or read but have not actually experienced, or you are defining effort as force. Anyone who has ever mastered anything knows that without will and effort, it just doesn't happen. On the other hand, force will get you nothing except perhaps an injury.
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| this is definitely my favorite part | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Hey Jimg. You almost get it. Forget what I wrote and then come back to it in a few weeks and you may understand. So if I set your pants on fire (according to what you previously wrote) would you need will power to be aware of it? Awareness and will are very different. As you mentioned too,' that force will get you nothing except an injury' -when you are more aware you dont need to use unnecessary force. Anyway. Come back to it in a few weeks and it may make more sense. Have a good week sensei. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 338
| Vibes, do you do Bikram yoga. How often? I can't imagine anyone doing bikram regularly without effort? | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| I have done it on and off over the years. Bu now do it with reducing physical effort more and more.Have found that Im more efficent and have improved and so have my mates who have done the same. They feel they could have improved much more had they reduced the physical effort earlier too. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Next time you make love, have a go reducing the physical effort and replace it more sensing and feeling and listening to your and your partners feelings more, feeling more and more what movements develop naturally and organically and see what happens. Then try ride the waves of pleasure like surfing. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 149
| I totally hear what you are saying and I could not agree more.... ever try to force an orgasm thats on the brink???? It never seems to come......lol
there is ease in the effort, it is not EASY but not forced either just a gentle working moving and meditating and BREATHING | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Im so glad to hear that someone in yoga forum land gets it! | |
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| Hi, I know this is an old thread, but I have been very much encouraged by the rational and well considered posts initiated by Jivasana.
It is wrong to consider the West as morally inferior or less 'spiritually ready' than other cultures. Womens' rights and animal rights, as well as basic human rights are all developments of Western critical rationalism - not Western religion, but Western moral philosophy. And they are enshrined in law in just about all Western countries. This is not trivial, and could be argued as evidence for the West having some form of moral integrity on a cultural level.
What I like about yoga is that it has taught me mindfulness, and psychological flexibility, as well as a sensitive awareness of my physical body. However I gained this through Bikram. I spent 18 months at another studio and all I saw was a cliche social construction of what 'spiritual' was supposed to be: candles, purple cushions, incense, predictable rhetoric etc. The teacher at this studio was anything but psychologically flexible, and was insistent on deriding Bikram as inauthentic yoga. This to me became ironic.
These are just my personal views, and I have to admit that I don't identify myself as a 'spiritual' person although I have honestly tried to in the past. I see so much of what is considered 'spiritual' a product of social discourse and even conformity to some extent. I think that some of the criticism directed at Bikram Yoga stems from some valid arguments around safety and alignment, but some others seem like attacks upon a style of Yoga that is different to what "Yoga and Spirituality is meant to be" - like there is any consensus on such subjective phenomena anyway. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 574
| Spiritualizing yoga is christianizing yoga. We can do anything we want to yoga. We are free. but originaly it predates the bible and even the gita.Its best not to call it spiritual. Even Indians call it spiritual nowadays from western influence. Wha goes around comes around. | |
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Bikram yoga less "spiritual"?