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| Hi Everyone, am a devoted Ashtangi but have recently tried Bikram and admit that many of its asanas complemented my practice. However, I cannot help but question some poses- especially when they're called out and justified by lines like 'shoulders are supposed to hurt' or 'block the throat'. If anything is extremely painful then it shouldn't be forced or perhaps something's wrong with it, right? Makes me wonder, for instance in Ardha Chandrasana with pada hastasana (half moon with hands to feet pose), the extreme side and back bends sometimes really strain my back and though am doing it right says my teacher, I still walk away with a new ball of pain... I want to stay open to Bikram yoga, but I need some answers. Thanks .  |
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| If it hurts, you're probably going too deep into the poses. Try backing off, identify the line between sensation and pain, and use the breath to progressively go deeper only when your body is ready. |
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| ooooh i had this problem too...
a lot of bikram teachers i've had emphasized depth in posture over proper form. bad news, right?
right.
especially in the first standing backbends and camel, they emphasized jacking your hips foreward as much as possible. yeah, i often came out of my bikram practice with back and knee pain as well.
then i started taking all manner of non-bikram yoga, just to see what was out there, y'know? and you know what i found? i found that teachers told me not to push my hips forward as much as possible. a little, yes, but not so much it pinches your lower back. in my experience, when backbending, it is best to lift first, then bend. meaning, on inhales, lengthen your spine upwards, and the on exhale, bend backwards. best to go slowly, and realize full extension of spine before deepening into backbend.
its funny. i read one neel's posts a while back which said, "yoga isn't supposed to hurt." i realized i was doing a lot of things out of habit, or just because a teacher said that were really making me feel some pain. what did i do? i went to iyengar classes and drilled the hell out of my form.
now i know better how to listen to my body, and how it is supposed to move. i give this advice often, that being, listen to your body, and BREATHE
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| I agree.
This is exactly why I'm not shifting out of Ashtanga for anything else- i really like that practice and it suits me. Undeniably, I do learn a lot from Iyengar's value for alignment and form, as well as Sivananda's depth. I suppose that when I do get my cardio work out from Bikram, i come with the precautions and principles of my other practice- especially putting form over depth and the powerful use of pranayama.
Many thanks! |
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| Personslly, I find Bikram Yoga really pushes the limits of range of motion, especially in regards to the neck. After doing Bikram for a year religiously, my neck and shoulders started to kill me. Then my hands went numb. I still love Bikram Yoga; I just modify the poses to just below my range of motion limit.
Good luck! |
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Location: London, England | Hi all,
I guess in a sense the Bikram teacher was right-your shoulders are supposed to hurt, but this is a bad thing, not a good thing. The nerve fibres that inform us of the 'noxiuos stimuli' that is called pain exist for one reason only-to tell us to desist from whatever activity it is that we are performing that reproduces the sensation of pain. This could range from eating nails, to stepping on glass, to attempting movements or postures that overstretch ligaments, damage the surfaces of joints, and generally erode our good function. We all hate pain (well, most of us) but you can see that it is actually your life-long friend. Looked at like this, the bikram teacher you mentioned is your enemy. We would all be dead by now if we had not learnt to respond to painful stimulus by retreating from the cause of it. We should retreat from teachers who encourage us to push further into postures which replicate the sensation. Perhaps the teacher would like to go a few rounds with a Thai boxer, that should get them to where they want to go!
Take care
Nick |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| Nick - 2006-01-17 12:08 AM
Looked at like this, the bikram teacher you mentioned is your enemy.
Oh goodie! Let's get the Bikram forum hopping again!  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well, before I decide to leave for a few days, I will leave you all with this.
IF, I had not experienced some level of pain during my early days of Bikram, I would not be here today doing the asana's as well as I can do, some better than others. Some days I am still sore when I haven't been practicing as regularly as I should. Also, I have a wonderful BIKRAM teacher who is not my enemy but my dear friend whom I'm eternally grateful to for showing me how to practice these asana's and all the others. IF, I listened to people like you Nick, I would be stuck in the same exact spot I was 2-1/2 years ago and I would be stuck in a Chiropractor's office instead - thanks but NO thanks.
There are limits you can take your body to with some pain and be perfectly fine with it. There are also some limits that are definitely too far, which we all know how PAINFUL that can be. I think common sense is the key here. IF, you can practice with common sense, less ego (the ego that tells you to push it further so you can do it one) and with less competitiveness, then you will succeed and have less pain...and that my dear friends is where the problem lies with any yoga practice...not just Bikram. You have to start somewhere, you have to learn what PAIN is and you must learn where your body is at. How else are you ever going to learn how to feel it...connect with it and KNOW that??? Then when you practice on a regular basis - especially every day, you learn to take your body as far as you can go TODAY and not any further than is necessary and further to the point of injury.
You guys have fun discussing this. I'm leaving for a Yoga workshop for a few days and will be not be here to join in the fun,   Darn, I was so hoping I could be here to debate this one,   |
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| i think it's largely a communication problem. i do not think that bikram himself is looking for a person to go to the point of pain--assuming that the term pain means sharp sensations that indicate injury--but rather to the point of discomfort where the body is not in a comfortable space, but a space where it is working or stretching or strengthening it's way into the posture, with proper alignment. And i think that the term 'pain' is being used to refer to 'discomfort.'
in fifi's case, she was in injurious pain, and i do not think that bikram himself would advocate this. it doesn't make sense that he would. But, many students are lazy, and they won't push themselves into discomfort, and just do what is comfortable with a little bit of comfortable stretch or effort, and so they need 'encouragement' into discomfort--which many people, because they're lazy, consider 'pain' or confuse with 'pain.' So bikram, likely, adopted the same language 'it should be painful' but he meant discomfort and not the kind of pain that will injure someone.
So, it really is about finding that fine line and pushing yourself into and through discomfort to have the proper opening, and not about pushing through injurious pain which will lead to long-term problems.
but, many bikram teachers have adopted thel anguage of 'pain' without this understanding, so they can't tellt he difference between discomfort and pain in their students, and if the student appears to be in pain or says that s/he is in pain, then they say 'good' even if it isn't good.
And to give an example of lazy and discomfort/pain confusion from my own experience, i had one client who was doing a pose in a very lazy way, and it was incorrect and potentially injurious alignment (assuming she practiced that movement over and over in improper alignment), and when i moved onto her mat to adjust her--without having touched her and not even having started the basic oral instructions (because it was a two finger directional adjustment), she said "ouch! you're hurting me!" and i hadn't done anything but stepped on her mat. So i laughed and asked her, 'what did i do?" and she said "well, nothing yet." and i said, "you're in the wrong alignment, and eventually you'll injure yourself. i know the pose and i can help you find the appropriate alignment." and when we did she said "but it hurts." and i said "how does it hurt? is it a sharp pain or a mild perpetual discomfort?" and when she said "discomfort" i said 'Good, as it should be." But she really wasn't willing to engage that space before, and called it 'pain'--so i can see how teachers and students can get confused. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | zoebird - 2006-01-18 10:58 AM
i do not think that bikram himself would advocate this. it doesn't make sense that he would. But, many students are lazy, and they won't push themselves into discomfort, and just do what is comfortable with a little bit of comfortable stretch or effort, and so they need 'encouragement' into discomfort--which many people, because they're lazy, consider 'pain' or confuse with 'pain.' So bikram, likely, adopted the same language 'it should be painful' but he meant discomfort and not the kind of pain that will injure someone.
BINGO! and most people here in the West do not have a clue about their bodies and are mostly used to doing absolutely no physical exercise, which is something that Bikram observed a long time ago in the 70's when he was first asked to teach to that small group of people.
but, many bikram teachers have adopted the language of 'pain' without this understanding, so they can't tellt he difference between discomfort and pain in their students, and if the student appears to be in pain or says that s/he is in pain, then they say 'good' even if it isn't good.
Not my teacher. I would venture to say not all Bikram teachers should be put in this category...although there are very many. Also, there are very many other "bad" yoga teachers too that don't necessarily teach Bikram either.
And to give an example of lazy and discomfort/pain confusion from my own experience, i had one client who was doing a pose in a very lazy way, and it was incorrect and potentially injurious alignment (assuming she practiced that movement over and over in improper alignment), and when i moved onto her mat to adjust her--without having touched her and not even having started the basic oral instructions (because it was a two finger directional adjustment), she said "ouch! you're hurting me!" and i hadn't done anything but stepped on her mat. So i laughed and asked her, 'what did i do?" and she said "well, nothing yet." and i said, "you're in the wrong alignment, and eventually you'll injure yourself. i know the pose and i can help you find the appropriate alignment." and when we did she said "but it hurts." and i said "how does it hurt? is it a sharp pain or a mild perpetual discomfort?" and when she said "discomfort" i said 'Good, as it should be." But she really wasn't willing to engage that space before, and called it 'pain'--so i can see how teachers and students can get confused.
Sounds like a classic example of teaching Yoga...nothing unusual or different here. This could happen in Bikram or any type of yoga class and does happen. I've watched my teacher make plenty of adjustments in my Bikram classes, on me too!
Okay, I'm going now. Sorry to post and run,  |
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| Bikram to English dictionary:
"Pain" = discomfort
"Lock the knee" = engage your thighs and lift the kneecaps
any others? |
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Location: London, England | Hi guys,
Let me clarify my post earlier-as Zoebird says, I think there may be a communication problem here. Different types of nerves carry different stimuli to the central nervous system where the stimuli are integrated so that the central nervous system can formulate a rsponse to the stimulus. Say you lift your arm so that a few pressure recpotors around the joint fire to tell your CNS of increased pressure in a certain point of the joint capsule. For most people this would not even rise to consciousness. Others may register the increased pressure. Others may register stretch on tight muscles which may impede the movement. When do all these sensations become painful? This is probably a quwestion which is as old as the world itself, and will continue far into the future. One person's unbearable agony is another person's ecstacy.
There was acase in Wales a few years ago where the police were given videos which depicted images of men having their penis' nailed to wooden boards. The police immediately began a murder investigation and began digging up the back garden to look for the victims of this horrific torture-there were no victims-all the men had consented to having their privates nailed down. There was a long court case, and the men were eventually cleared of any wrongdoing.
This case perhaps highlights that what we enjoy and find fulfillling in our yoga practice is not always good for us as such, unless we can say that the mental gratification brings us sufficient reward to outweigh the physical damage that is inflicted by a faulty yoga practice.
I cannot comment on anyone's practice, I would need to see you in action before I made a judgment. But what I can say is that pain per se is not a valuable additioion to our lives-recognizing what causes pain and adopting lifestyle changes, changes in posture, and generally avoiding situations which are painful for ourselves and others can only be sensible. Attempting postures which actually cause us pain is sick. Learning how to do postures which cause us pain in a manner which is notr painful is both physically and mentally rewarding.
Take care
Nick |
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| Please tell me practicing Bikram Yoga is less painful than nailing your privates to a board!
YEEOWWCH!!!!!!  |
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Location: London, England | Hi Jeansyoga,
Thanks for taking my post with a pinch of salt !
There was also a case in Germany a couple of years ago where two men met through an internet chatroom (such as this!) and discussed their fantasies surrounding cannibalism. They met up and ended up chopping off the victim's penis which they proceeded to cook-apparently they couldn't eat it-I would have said perhaps some spices and a creamy relish. The victim was then killed and dismembered before being put in the freezer and eaten over some months.
There's some strange people out there...
The original topic of this thread is a very interesting one, as it calls into question some of our motives and inspirations for practicing just about anything. If we were to be stroked, the nerves registering touch would send a bombardment of messages to the central nervous system-the same would happen if we were to receive a painful stimulus. But if wwe subject ourselves to the same stimulus over a period of time, then not only can we learn to ignore the stimulus, but the nerve responsible for transmitting it becomes 'dampened' down. If a posture ceases to hurt after a period of time, this does not mean that the danger has passed. If the posture ceases to hurt because we have changed our posture for the better, well then that is a good thing. Once again, 'pain' is a stimulus telling you to stop, and is essential for survival-there are bo nerve receptors for comfort, as these are not necessary-pain is real, comfort is an illusion that is a result of the integration of various stimulis in the central nervous system.
Take care
Nick |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Whoa - those stories are a bit much first thing in the morning 
The thing about the nerves "dampening" and not feeling a stimulus as "pain" anymore I think are behind a lot of the functional problems people "suddenly" (can I use the "quotes" a bit more often? Sure!) have in middle age. In fact, I think there are many practitioners who would argue that they are responsible for all the problems we have. I remember an elderly relative who developed a dropped foot. The doctors were typically not helpful, but I kept thinking about how he sat in his chair all the years I had known him and probably longer, with his legs crossed and leaning to the right. I am sure there must have been nerve damage in the hip from sitting that way all the time. And certainly the same thing must happen internally to cause other problems we have.
Funny, but postural stuff is something I have always been aware of, even as a child. I never wanted to develop a habit of doing the same thing all the time because I didn't want to be crooked. Someone else recently mentioned doing breathing exercises as a child - we were definitely yogis in a former life! |
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| cyndi:
right. many, but not all bikram teachers don't know the difference between pain and discomfort. many, but not all yoga teachers in general fall into the same category. since yoga educations vary widely, it can be difficult to find a really good teacher in any yoga class.
i also gave the example from my class to demonstrate the confusion about pain. i know the difference, my client does not. sometimes, my apprentice teachers will back away as soon as someone says 'ouch' instead of asking questions for clarity. One of my apprentices observed a class last week and said he was amazed at how many questions i asked one client about what he was feeling, where, how sharp or dull it was, where it originated and where it went in the body, and then made multiple adjustments giving the student options (does this way feel better or that? when your in this version, do you feel the work here or not? if not, then lets adjust this--does that work?) This is about helping the student find the right alignment, without pain, but with enough effort and discomfort. I think that a less experienced or knowledgeable teacher will simply rely on the student's 'ouch' and not worry about anything beyond that--moving to the next mat.
there is nothing wrong with this caution, but if it becomes perpetual, then neither the teacher nor the student grows into the pose. |
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Location: London, England | Hi tourist,
Sorry about the graphic nature of the stories-there's an old saying from Yorkshire in the north of England:"there's nowt so queer as folk"-obviously doesn't have the same meaning these days, can't really drop it at a party!Intersting you should say that about your relative-I believe that knee and hip surgery are major causes of foot drop, it is conceivable that bad posture held for some time could cause foot drop. I believe one of the most common causes iis a blow to the peroneal nerve which is so close to the skin. The dorsiflexors on the front of the calf are the muscles that prevent the foot from dropping down-injury to the common peroneal can cause weakness in the these muscles.
Take care, I'll try to stay away from gruesome stories in future!
Nick |
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Why the pain?
