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 SI joint pain & yogaModerators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Bikram Yoga | Message format |
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Hello! I am a young woman with a 3-month old injury to my Sacroiliac joint (in my right lower back). I love Bikram yoga but am afraid to do some of the poses like 1/2 locus, camel etc. My MD & Physical therapist don;t know enough about yoga practice so they told me to just go easy. Are there any instructors out there that have any advice on my yogs practice or if I should avoid Bikram styles. Thanks  | |||
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| YogaDancer |
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| TommyG |
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| YogaDancer |
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| I teach in the Washington, DC/Suburban, MD area. Special Conditions is yoga used purely for therapeutic reasons. To deal with back issues, help with MS and Parkinsons, shoulder rehab, scoliosis, and other biomechanical things. I'm glad you mentioned the Bikram claim for cures. Please know that nothing in this WORLD is going to cure ruptured or herniated discs. At this point, they're still working on prosthetic replacements and that isn't going well. What can happen is that people can learn how to elongate their spine, which will make space between the vertebrae, removing pressure from the the discs. Once that action is learned, the posture can be carried into other areas of life, maintaining that lift, which makes the back feel better. Our goal is to help people out of pain. You didn't mention your "hip issue" but we deal with that a lot. We look above and below the actual "issue" to see how you're using your feet and knees, and how you're using your upper body. Trouble with the left shoulder, for example, can manifest trouble in the right hip. Go figure, tight? It would be my suggestion that you seek out a different style of yoga that is more realistic about what can happen in yoga. And please know that nothing is instant. Not healing, not weight loss, not yoga flexibility or strenth. It takes time and an investment in yourself. But I do promise you, it's worth the investment. I digress. There are a couple of therapeutic moves that can be done on an aching SI. The relief is almost instantaneous. Unfortunately, since the muscles are used to having it out of whack, like any physical adjustment, your body will probably return to the pre-adjustment state. It takes a bit, and you building muscles to stableize your sacrum. I recommend seeking out an Anusara instructor (here to build this strength. If they have not taken any of the therapeutics training, tell them you want them to contact Jenny Otto and ask what to do for your sacrum. Or for someone in your area who has. Jenny is the Master Trainer for Special Conditions in the Anusara tradition in the US. (Also my mentor.) It's a good community and they share a lot. Ego doesn't get in the way of helping someone out of pain ... normally. As for the video, no I don't recommend that at this point. If you don't mind, I'll post how to use a yoga video safely later (I have to put together some dinner for my bread winner). It's not like popping in an aerobics video. Videos can be implements of destruction in yoga, if you're not familiar with the asanas already. After you're stronger, and probably a little more flexible? Then it's more likely I'd send you off to a Bikram class with a blessing. The yoga is fun and different than the Krishnamachyara family (Iyengar, Ashtanga, Viniyoga, Anusara are the man "branches" of this family). All yoga has value. It's in how we use it! Do you want to tell me a little about your hip injury? Christine | |||
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| TommyG |
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| YogaDancer |
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| My Cats' Mom |
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| Christine I read your post re SI joint pain with interest. I am a Bikram Yoga instructor with the type of SI join pain being discussed. It has been with me for over a year now, in varying degrees. While initially I experienced a sharp pain after Locust and through Full Locust (which would cause lingering back pain through the day but then disappeared), I now have a more dull, constant pain, especially after sitting. X-rays don't show anything but my chiropractor believes it is the SI joint while the ortho doctor says maybe arthritis or disc degeneration. I took some time off from my yoga, per my chiro's advice but when I returned, I had the same sharp pain mid-way through the spine strengthening series. So I rested a couple months and started doing some admoninal strengthening. Then I added on a little vinyasa at home. Going from upward dog to downward dog used to bring on the muscle spasms but, to my delight, did not anymore! Excited, I went back to my Bikram practice and found that if I skip Standing Bow and Floor Bow, my lower back does not go into spasm. However, now I have the constant low back pain.  I teach and practice lengthening first with all bending and the anchored final spinal twist, as do most experienced Bikram teachers I know. However, I have never heard anyone in Bikram say anything about making sure to keep the hips square for standing head-to-knee or triangle. The dialogue is geared to beginners who mostly are just trying to stand on one leg ("lock the knee"!) or who are sagging during triangle ("press your right hip forward and bring your right shoulder back"). I think most people who have been doing Bikram a while and continue to follow the dialogue are probably overdoing it -- now the right hip is pressing too far down, the left knee is pressing too far back and the shoulders and hips are definitely not squared or in line with each other. Does that make sense? I have to wonder if my earlier mistakes in this yoga have caused my SI problem. I have been to a few Anusara classes before and enjoyed them. After reading your post, I am seriously considering looking into those again. Do you think I should completely drop my Bikram practice while I am trying to work through this back issue? Or rather just drop a few poses while I try to heal? I do feel that I have a very strong back (my ortho Dr. was going to prescribe some physical therapy for my lower back but decided I was way ahead of what most PT programs would do for me), so I'm wondering what else helps to stablize the SI area. I am always open to learning from other traditions and teachers so that I can be a better teacher and student. Anything you can suggest will be appreciated. | |||
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| YogaDancer |
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| It really sounds like you're on top of your injury, but I do think it's going to continue to plague you if it's actually out. You know how a closet door slides on rails? The door runs in between two of them? Picture your sacrum as the door. The rails are your large hip bones. The sacrum fits into the 'rails' in the hips. The SI joint is the top of this contraption. We can torque the sacrum out of the 'rails' by not elongating before we twist or squaring before we fold, so anchoring and elongating are very important. Once it's out, though, it pretty much does take a manual adjustment to put it back. Ironically, chiropractors and PTs seldom get this, but osteopaths frequently do. I wouldn't suggest you give up something that really makes you happy, and I always suggest one continue to expand one's horizons. Given your observation about more experienced Bikram students overdoing things, I think anything you picked up elsewhere might simply benefit a population that doesn't really know what the heck is going on in different parts of their bodies. After all, it's not the Bikram focus or training. You'd be a serious asset. A Bikram teacher that can actually improve physical health in a targeted manner, rather than just all those blanket claims that generally getting off one's butt can effect! I'm not being snotty, just thinking what great things you could help people with. This is one of the things that made me continue my Anusara training while my own practice is Ashtanga. I think we're similar birds. What I would suggest is finding out who is the best in therapeutic yoga in the Anusara community near you. Their focus in the asanas is different than Bikram, so that in itself might be an interesting experience for you. My point, though, is they might be able to help you still do the poses important in the Bikram series, but with modifications that will help you (and your students) do them in a more expanded, less potentially damaging way. Actually finding ease in the asanas, vs. fighting discomfort. I'd talk to that teacher particularly about the asanas that can take your SI back out. Anything asymetrical. Natajarasana or Dandyamana Dhanurasana, you call it. Parsvotanasana, and how to do Shalabhasana without using your lower back. (Shame on you!  It's lifting with the hamstrings, tailbone tucked that get you there safely!) Ardha Matsyendrasana, they can all torque that SI joint out. Your description of squaring is good, and I know people don't do it. Those hips fly up in the air or out to the side. "locking the knee" is something we'd NEVER say, given the fact people tend to hyperextend that joint. Try suggesting they lift their goes to feel their legs strengthen and energize. You'd be amazed. Locking the knee can be the precursor to repetitave stress and/or "fluid on the knee" injuries. Boy. You're not in the Washington, DC area are you? I hate the idea of you being in pain for so long that your muscles are healing around it this way. I don't think backing off is going to give you any long-term relief, as you're experiencing. Rest is good, but you'll find the twinge sneaking up on you. This injury is typical to yogis. We tend not to "hug in," letting our backs open up too much, which weakens the muscles around the "rails" of the sacrum. I'd love to have you in class. Either mine or just with me. Frequently people who teach one type of yoga with some of the sentiments I've experienced are not open to other ideas and methods. I think you'd be a great asset. Ah well. Can you get to an Ansuara teacher for awhile? It really puts some of the beauty back in to the yoga, in my opinion. Christine | |||
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| TommyG |
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| YogaDancer |
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| TommyG |
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| My Cats' Mom |
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| Christine: Thanks for your help. It sounds like I need to get back to my chiropractor for regular SI adjustments! I quit seeing him a while back after I showed him my Bikram book and he told me that 1/2 the poses in the book were exacerbating my SI joint pain. After all, the senior Bikram teachers were telling me, "Just keep doing the yoga. It will work itself out." No one had any useful information for me! That was when I went on line to find out what was required of other teachers for their certification to teach. When I saw the extensive reading lists (we didn't have any required reading), I thought, "Hmmmm . . . " I don't think I ever looked at Bikram Yoga the same after reading Erich Shiffman's book. I had a chance to look through Erich's book again today -- specifically, to follow your advice and see how he addresses the poses I do in the Bikram series. It was interesting to me and again, reinforces my belief that the Bikram "dialogue" is geared toward people who are just beginning and need things explained simply. Cobra is another example of this -- telling people to "look up, come up, go up, more up" is simply too generic. I'm surprised more advanced students aren't having neck problems from trying to always go "more up"! This pain must have been sent to me so I could be a better teacher. Coming from an athletic background, I did research early on about the whole "lock the knee" think so I'm very careful to explain about how to activate the quads without pushing the knee back. The lifting the toes idea is new to me, though. Thanks! I do worry about the repetitive stress of doing just one series of yoga, over and over again, little variation. I have a student who did four Bikram classes in one day! (Do you get the Type A's that we get?) I'm definitely going to take your suggestions regarding Anusara and adjusting the Bikram poses. I checked out the Anusara website and there are a couple places in the area that offer it besides the one I went to before (I liked it but it was a little pricey  ) If I were in DC, I'd be at your doorstep tomorrow! I do have a friend there, though -- if I get to visit her, you'll be seeing me  I think the direction I'm heading in is away from Bikram yoga. Maybe not completely -- I'd still like to teach and take classes sometimes. The days of it being my main practice are ending, though. I want to explore the Anusara some more (I also thought it brought some beauty to my practice) and who knows -- maybe someday I'll be able to try Ashtanga! Thanks for your support -- you're a blessing | |||
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| YogaDancer |
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| It's almost a blessing and a curse, isn't it? Being exposed to other thoughts? The Bikram studios and teachers kind of exist in their own isolated world in many ways. Wild health claims, languaging that is basic but unclear, no why taught, you name it. There is a strong belief in most of the yoga community that an injury teaches you lessons. It makes you slow down, listen to your body, respect the injry and do what you need to do to let it heal. If we had flat tires, we wouldn't try to work through it, would we? Why is our body different? The poor teachers telling you to work through it are dangers to themselves and their students. No other way around it. Unfortunately, they don't know it and the Bikram training doesn't (care) try to teach you anything differently. Bikram himself says he's not a spiritual person, so why should he ask his teachers to be. Hence the lack of reading lists and things delving into the other 7 limbs of yoga. My opinion. Cobra tip: Ask your people to rise up by pulling their hands isometrically backwards (towards their hips) and lifting with the back of their neck. When and only when they've reached as high as they can go, let them bring their eyes forward, not up. No neck strain, the hands thing gives a nice curve to the spine. Then ask them to release their butt, pull in their tummy a little and pull the hands back a little more. Tucking the tailbone lets them rise up more safely (no lumbar strain) and the back of the neck thing takes all that misalignment of the upper spine (neck) out of the picture. If they're hips are off the ground, make them lower them back. They're not doing Up Dog, which is where that poses is going if they're lifting. Extremely bad alignment for the shoulders if they're lifting improperly from Cobra up to Up Dog. Also, in cobra, are their shoulders up around their ears? Get them to relax the shoulders. I have no idea how you'd fit that into your spiel. Just for the record  I'm a Type A. I do my Ashtanga Primary Series daily, then I take one or two other Anusara classes a day, and one or two Iyengar classes a week. I'll do yoga any time, any where. Just did a Baptiste 3-hour workshop on Saturday in addition to my practice. However, I'm not losing all my hydration with 6 hours in a sauna like that nut-case of a student of yours was. That's just kind of silly. My opinion. I find it interesting that you disregarded your chiro because he couldn't tell you what you wanted to hear, despite the fact his adjustments were putting you back in and out of pain at least momentarily. Yet the Bikram teachers couldn't offer you a thing. Are we humans weird? Yes, I'd go back to him. Start learning to hug in towards your core in asanas to build strength around your sacro-lumbar area. Compliment his work. Also, remember that although your primary practice might change, you can always take good things from one practice to another. I use Dandyamana Janu Sirsasana for advanced students with tight lower backs. Curving the spine (heresy in any other yoga type) and pulling femur back into the hip socket? ROCKS for how great it feels in the lower back. I love the Bikram trikonasana and Sasasana (Rabbit) after headstands. Wonderful. I teach Gentle at an Ashtanga Studio because of my Ashtanga practice and Anusara training. I teach Ashtanga at an Anusara studio because of my Anusara training and Ashtanga practice. Go figure, huh? So everything comes together. Ask the Anusara studios about work study. I do 2 hours a week at mine in exchange for free classes. That way cost isn't such an issue. Plus, I get to talk to people all the time about yoga. Not that I have anything to say on the subject!  I think you're on your way to being a hell of a teacher. You're open, you're aware, you're interested and you're willing to improve. Change is not scaring you. Take care of your body. And if you get here? I'd love to meet you! We'll do the yoga circuit together. Christine | |||
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| YogaDancer |
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| Tommy, I'm so pleased for you. I wish I could see you walk, given this really annoying, binding hip pain. It sounds like you've got some real issues with your back going on, probably effecting the way you walk to strain the ITB into your knee. Your psoas, too, attaches at the spine where your ribs stop, winds through your body, over your organs, through your hips to attach at the inner, upper groin on the thigh. A myraid of things could effect this. What happens to you when you do Supta Padangusthasana when you take your leg across your body rather than out to the side? After the nightmare of the pose, do you feel any relief? Do hip openers such as Ghomukasana feel OK after? Anyway, I'm surprised Nancy knew me, but I"m thrilled to hear she's studied with Jenny. That chick leaks information. She can watch you walk, line up your body and boom. No pain. Anusara and Iyengar yoga believe that when the body is well aligned, there is more freedom in the joints so movement is less effort and doesn't drag on another part of your body. I think this will prove true with you. Do let me know how you feel and how it goes? I'd love to hear. Christine | |||
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| My Cats' Mom |
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| YogaDancer |
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| The bandhas, being energy locks, support the body throughout the asana. Notice how stable you feel if you're drawing in your lower belly (uddiyana bandha), and the warmth you create internally when holding mula bandha? So they're part of the tensigrity of the body during a yoga pose. Each asana works every single muscle in your body, if you're holding it as intended. Even if part of it is relaxing the bottom muscles such as in Cobra. So holding uddiyana bandha in your standing poses gives more support to your torso via your anterior spine. Your back and hips, with the lower back as fulrum needs to do less work. "Hugging in" or "drawing to the midline" can also be something as simple as taking the stance for a wide-legged forward bend (parsarita Podottanasana). Pretending your feet are stuck, but pulling them isometrically towards each other on the mat. Notice you'll feel your legs fire up all the way into your abdomen. That's drawing energy IN to support the body. (This also prevents and cures a lot of repetative hip injuries caused from no support for the legs in overly flexible people. My problem for two whole stupid years!) In Uttanasana (forward fold) try standing with the feet about 6" apart. Fold. Lift the toes and feel your legs. Now when you're ready to come up, isometrically draw your feet together as you rise. Feel how stable and supported the asana feels? That's an excellent example of drawing in. You're probably going to have a really fun time learning lots of new ways to use the body. Let me know how your students like the difference in cobra? Some will love it and some will hate it. Those who hate it need it the most! Off to practice, then to apprentice, then to class! TTYL, Christine | |||
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| My Cats' Mom |
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| YogaDancer |
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| They're lucky to have you. Many blessings back at'cha.  Namasté Christine | |||
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| johnb838 |
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| Just curious, but do you tell the students to stretch their elbows down toward their hips in Shalabhasana? It seems like my Bikram teachers have been telling me this lately, but maybe I'm just hearing them now. I have had a lot of SI pain in my 4 months of Bikram practice. I had lumbar fusion, L5S1 in 1994, and I think my hips had just become very much frozen and immobile. My chiropractor was unable to adjust my right SI though my left one adjusted ok. In the last few weeks I've been getting a lot more mobility in my hips in general, and during Paschimottanasana last week the right SI joint "popped" for the first time. Then again yesterday, but during Guyarasana it adjusted. I'm very gratified by this because I've been working really hard for it. Also, I wanted to share that I don't seem to have pain from Standing Bow Pulling pose, just dizziness. But in Floor Bow I do seem to have instant lower back discomfort. It's also very hard for me to reach back for my feet in floor bow, which is surprising because it is very simple for me to reach back for my heels in Camel, and I can almost see my mat -- it's a strong posture for me. I also have lower back pain after Standing Head To Knee -- I think my back is not strong enough to hang at the not up/not down position it has to be in for that. I also cannot interlace my fingers under my feet in that posture so I'm kind of stuck in the first part of the pose. Thanks for any comments you may have. It's nice to have an actual technical discussion of Bikram practice instead of the constant bashing/defense that one usually finds on these threads. | |||
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