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| ebenjen - 2005-04-17 9:01 PM
While there have been a lot of articles published about Bikram and the franchise situation the majority of it is speculation. The contract I have with Bikram is very simple (one page) and contains very reasonable terms regarding my obligations to Bikram. It also was given to me at the beginning of the teacher training program so that I knew what I would be agreeing to before ever becoming certified.
Who else would determine what (or who) gets on Bikram's web site but Bikram?
Anyone with a trademark or copyright on anything would be expected to want them enforced, no? Otherwise, what would be the point? I wonder if what you meant to say was that the very idea of applying a copyright to an asana sequence is lame, and not the enforcement of such, once it has been granted. If so, I don't have an opinion about that at the moment.
You don't have to spend any money fighting Bikram unless you want to. The easiest thing to do to avoid litigation is to stop using his name and trademarks (Bikram Yoga, Bikram Method Yoga, etc.). Many of the people fighting Bikram do so because they believe that the fact that they paid for certification should give them the right to use his name in perpetuity, which is a naive position. If you accept his authority to certifity you in the first place then it is only logical that you should accept his right to revoke it, particularly for reasons that are outlined in the contract that all Bikram studios enter into.
What most of his detractors seem unwilling to acknowledge is that Bikram has created a very successful yoga brand and therefore he ought to have some method of controlling who gets to ride on his coattails. Isn't it odd that the studios who want to disaccociate from Bikram the man want to continue to use his name in their marketing materials?
As a Bikram studio owner, I owe much to Bikram for creating the brand and allowing me to have access to it. That calls for a certain amount of loyalty on my part and I'm happy to give it. Part of that means respecting the brand identity that he created and not changing the method because a brand isn't a brand without consistency. If I walk into a Bikram Yoga studio I expect to attend a Bikram Yoga class and not somebody else's variation. I know the very concept of a standardized yoga is outrageous and offensive to many people but I don't really care about that because it works so well for me just the way it is.
If you want to teach Bikram Yoga then do it his way. If not, then don't. It's very simple (or ought to be).
Let me clarify, ebenjen. I do think that Bikram has a very legitimate trademark and a strong brand which he should enforce. I do NOT think the copyright laws were meant to protect sequences of yoga poses nor do I feel that he should obtain or enforce copyrights in his poses/sequences. All of that is better and more adequately protected under trademark law not copyright, IMHO. I get the sense that he is overeaching and being greedy. Protecting a brand is one thing, trying to stop other people from using certain poses and sequences is going too far.
Yes, you are right, ebenjen, that it should be as simple as do it his way or don't do it his way. I agree. Although sometimes, business, personal and yogic relationships aren't that simple. I don't always feel that litigation is the right answer. From the press I've read about Bikram he seems very litigious and very quick to burn bridges with long-time teachers. Perhaps he is justified. Perhaps his brand is really being diluted. Perhaps the teachers are straying too far from his original plan. Nonetheless, Bikram comes across more greedy than protective.
There are two sides to every story. It's just easier to see the guy with all the rolls royces as greedy and the lowly studio owner as the one being picked on. Maybe that's unfair. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Yogaguy,
Just because you view Bikram as being the way you described, doesn't necessarily mean that it is so. Besides, think about McDonalds for instance. They have their hamburgers cooked a certain way, so does Wendy's and the various fast food joints. Sorry, I couldn't think of any vegan restaurants off hand:~) They have a certain protocol as to the type of food they serve, how they serve and how it is cooked and prepared for the franchises to operate. The same principal applies to Bikram's Yoga. There is nothing wrong with that. I am sure if you went to a McDonalds and found them cooking Wendy's style, McDonalds would stop the franchise from doing it that way. So, having that said, Bikram is just being a business person and sometimes the way we see things are not always the truth. There is nothing wrong with Bikram franchising his Yoga style and sequence - this is America and we have been doing these things for years, why stop at hamburgers...why not yoga too?? Besides, I think it helps keep the rif raf out and keeps people more in line about the yoga disciplines and protocols of Yoga. However, what I do think is that the teachers need to fine tune their practices a little bit or a lot of bit better. As a student, I have more of a problem with teachers not being professional, not Bikram. Oh well, we are in the infant stages of growth here and I believe it will get better. All corporations go through this, anyone who has ever worked in an office environment should know this, just because they are selling Yoga, doesn't mean that there is going to NOT be problems, this is all about trial and error. |
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| Cyndi - 2005-04-18 11:55 AM
Yogaguy,
Just because you view Bikram as being the way you described, doesn't necessarily mean that it is so. Besides, think about McDonalds for instance. They have their hamburgers cooked a certain way, so does Wendy's and the various fast food joints. Sorry, I couldn't think of any vegan restaurants off hand:~) They have a certain protocol as to the type of food they serve, how they serve and how it is cooked and prepared for the franchises to operate. The same principal applies to Bikram's Yoga. There is nothing wrong with that. I am sure if you went to a McDonalds and found them cooking Wendy's style, McDonalds would stop the franchise from doing it that way. So, having that said, Bikram is just being a business person and sometimes the way we see things are not always the truth. There is nothing wrong with Bikram franchising his Yoga style and sequence - this is America and we have been doing these things for years, why stop at hamburgers...why not yoga too?? Besides, I think it helps keep the rif raf out and keeps people more in line about the yoga disciplines and protocols of Yoga. However, what I do think is that the teachers need to fine tune their practices a little bit or a lot of bit better. As a student, I have more of a problem with teachers not being professional, not Bikram. Oh well, we are in the infant stages of growth here and I believe it will get better. All corporations go through this, anyone who has ever worked in an office environment should know this, just because they are selling Yoga, doesn't mean that there is going to NOT be problems, this is all about trial and error.
Cyndi,
I already conceded the point that Bikram has a valid brand and mark and should protect them. The essence of trademark law is consumer protection. Thus the McDonald's eating yogi knows that when they walk into a McDs or a Bikram studio they can expect a certain level of quality and a certain style of yoga. That builds goodwill to the consumer. It helps when you go out into the marketplace to know what you're getting when you see a brand that you know. It's efficient, it's good business, and it helps the economy. If Bikram teachers aren't teaching the Bikram method then it dilutes his mark and his brand. So regulating how his name is used is a good thing. To a point...
However, being overly greedy does not necessarily build goodwill to the consumer. It crosses a fine line. Copyright law is distinguished from trademark law in that it is a constitutionally granted monopoly over original works of authorship which are fixed in a tangible medium of expression. These monopolies were granted to promote science and art. I do not think granting such protection to a series of yoga poses is necessarily valid or furthers the creative process as was intended. Yes, Bikram can protect his name and his style and his brand through trademark. However, granting him AUTHORSHIP over yoga poses is, like I said before, overreaching. It doesn't serve a legitimate business interest, it serves to covet more rights to poses that are basically in the public domain. Finally, it impedes others from being able to do yoga if you grant rights Bikram for the poses. It impedes the free market of ideas.
Reasonable minds may differ as to whether Bikram is greedy and overly litigious. My view is that he is and he is fostering a negative sentiment associated with his name by being too aggressive, too greedy and burning too many bridges. You're entitled to your opinions. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | YogaGuy - 2005-04-18 12:59 PM
However, being overly greedy does not necessarily build goodwill to the consumer. It crosses a fine line.
Yes, Bikram can protect his name and his style and his brand through trademark. However, granting him AUTHORSHIP over yoga poses is, like I said before, overreaching.
Yogaguy, I do not see this like you do. IF, I were to listen to all the negative feedback about Bikram and believe it (whether it were true or NOT), I might see it the way you do, but I do not see this. I think it is unfair also, to judge Bikram and the entire company based on gossip and listening to a few people out of very many, that are either disgruntled, unsatisfied etc. As with any organization, you cannot please everybody. Do you honestly feel that by building a strong corporation is greedy?? If Bikram builds his company and it is strong, then I can see that so many people can benefit from it...especially the Bikram studios across the nation - it really is a good thing. Oh well. |
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| Cyndi - 2005-04-18 1:27 PM
Yogaguy, I do not see this like you do. IF, I were to listen to all the negative feedback about Bikram and believe it (whether it were true or NOT), I might see it the way you do, but I do not see this. I think it is unfair also, to judge Bikram and the entire company based on gossip and listening to a few people out of very many, that are either disgruntled, unsatisfied etc. As with any organization, you cannot please everybody. Do you honestly feel that by building a strong corporation is greedy?? If Bikram builds his company and it is strong, then I can see that so many people can benefit from it...especially the Bikram studios across the nation - it really is a good thing. Oh well.
Cyndi,
I know you love to argue with me, but it really is pointless if you are going to misquote me and distort everything I say. You LOVE Bikram. I get it. That's great. Enjoy. I think it's pointless to continue to discuss the matter, when you obviously do not understand the distinctions I am making.
Another thing, aren't you the one who said, "science and technology are going to destroy this planet one day." Yet you are such a fan of big corporations. That seems hypocritical, don't you think? I don't believe all corporations are bad, but I believe people act badly. I believe if you give people too much power, they can, and often will, abuse it. You may believe that opening up yoga studios on every corner like Starbucks is a good thing. I don't think it is. Something that is good and precious shouldn't be homogenized and mass produced. Care should be taken with something as important as yoga. For some teachers, yoga is a gift that they give to you. For others it is a commodity they sell to you. Yes, teachers should be compensated and rewarded for their efforts. But do they need a fleet of Rolls Royces?
Edited by YogaGuy 2005-04-18 2:42 PM
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| Cyndi,
Macdonalds does not go around suing Wendys and Burger Kings for having a similar products. Bikram's copyright claims that he has the right to. This is the heart of the debate. Unfortunetely, the legal stategy of the Yoga Unity has focused on challenging Bikram main part of his copyright. Which states basically that he owns his series, name and dialogue and if you teach it, you must adhere to his rules as owner of the copyright. Personally I do not have a problem with that as a teacher or studio owner. You teach Bikram, respect the man and his rules.
The major issue I see with his copyright is the last part of it. It gives Bikram the opporunity to sue for damages against anyone who teaches ANYTHING similar. Myself, I did not take his training but was taught by one of his apprentices. So I teach from the 84 classic asana which has a similar sequence, not exact but similar. I do not teach the 26 poses the way he teaches (nor I do not call my yoga Bikram) them but because it may resemble his series because THE ROOTS are same, he can potentially sue for damages. So if I have the standing bow or Standing head to knee in my series he can sue. This would be like Macdonalds suing Wendy for having a value meal with a different name.
Even if he is wrong in his case(which I believe he is in regards this part of his copyright), he has so much money that smaller studio owner can quickly go out of business through legal fees alone. He also has a history of litigation. He has the potential to be the first Monoply on this lineage of Yoga. Last time I checked monoplies were illegal. |
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| Hi Jackie -
I should have been more specific in my initial post because I certainly did not mean for the front desk scenarios to reflect on the owner/management. You say tomato ~ I say tumado ~ For we all interpret things differently. Perhaps the gentleman (who wasn't the owner) who gave me the "bikram only" discertation went back to the city. Perhaps he was having a bad day. Perhaps the other people I have spoken to are being over-sensitive.
Truly the NY Market carries different dynamics... As a studio owner/manager I am sure it is difficult to keep abreast of the happenings. My apologies for any disrespect or negative feelings conjured from my post.
I spend alot of time in NYC/Queens/Brooklyn and see a movement. A movement in both Bikram yoga and all yoga studios. I just learned of changes in the very popular Yoga Zone. For many years they were dedicated solely to ISHTA. Now they offer anusara and other vinyasa with teachers from different lineages. Cyndi Lee's OM recently closed down a studio in Western Nassau, Long Island. Why? Because Equinox opened across the street that has Ashtanga, Bikram, Vinyasa classes at better prices. The big gyms are quickly gaining momentum and I said before they are grabbing the yoga studio customer (something New York Sports Clubs could never do).
Finally, let's take a look at the Bikram teachers who opened studios offering different kinds of yoga, (ie: YogaRoom in Astoria, Every Breathe you take in Brooklyn, Some Like it Hot and NYYoga on the Upper East, and the Tribeca Yoga Connection which closed last summer.) Certainly there is a method to their thinking and strategy. There is also a wave Bikram only studios through-out the tri-state area changing over ownership/selling off for financial reasons.
I want all yoga to succeed especially yoga studios. Afterall the more yoga we have the better we will all be.. Once again, I hope my points shed some light on the changing marketplace. I hate to put yoga and money in one sentence. But this is one of the most expensive places to be and I know the bills have to be paid.. I wish the Larchmont studio all the luck and hope I helped all across the board!
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| Another thing:
Cyndi, do you really believe that trademark law is insufficient to protect Bikram's interests in his name and his business and his style of yoga? Do you really believe that he needs additional protection in the form of copyrighting his series of poses? What purpose does it serve?
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| YogaGuy - 2005-04-18 1:48 PM
Another thing:
Cyndi, do you really believe that trademark law is insufficient to protect Bikram's interests in his name and his business and his style of yoga? Do you really believe that he needs additional protection in the form of copyrighting his series of poses? What purpose does it serve?
I wouldn't spend too much effort on this Yoga Guy.
I have found it's much like teaching algebra to a puppy.
Dee
Edited by miss dee 2005-04-18 4:06 PM
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| miss dee - 2005-04-18 4:05 PM
YogaGuy - 2005-04-18 1:48 PM
Another thing:
Cyndi, do you really believe that trademark law is insufficient to protect Bikram's interests in his name and his business and his style of yoga? Do you really believe that he needs additional protection in the form of copyrighting his series of poses? What purpose does it serve?
I wouldn't spend too much effort on this Yoga Guy.
I have found it's much like teaching algebra to a puppy.
Dee
ROFLMAO
My dog & I agree with you, Dee. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
 
Location: A Blue State | miss dee - 2005-04-18 4:05 PM
YogaGuy - 2005-04-18 1:48 PM
Another thing:
Cyndi, do you really believe that trademark law is insufficient to protect Bikram's interests in his name and his business and his style of yoga? Do you really believe that he needs additional protection in the form of copyrighting his series of poses? What purpose does it serve?
I wouldn't spend too much effort on this Yoga Guy.
I have found it's much like teaching algebra to a puppy.
Dee
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| I have only been getting to know about Bikram and the lawsuits lately. Bikram said that it is like music, do ra me is public domain, but a song is copyright. So basically different poses are the same as do ra me, and as long as people don't use the same sequence than they should not have a problem. But from what I understand he won and got the go ahead to stop yoga teachers from using any of "his" poses. I think that's ridiculous. I wonder if anyone out there is seriously thinking about a class action lawsuit. If 1000 studio owners join efforts to sue, is there a chance to appeal? Isn't there any litigation lawyers that are hardcore yogi that might consider doing this probono? |
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| I probably have no place posting considering that 1)I am a newbie to practicing Bikram (only 1.5 months) and 2)I clearly do not own a studio. However, I was hoping what I have to say may help you Mells.....
I recently moved apartments so am now attending a new Bikram studio. My new studio offers traitional Bikram courses, but also Power Vinayasa and 'gentle' yoga (heat is a little less intense for people with health problems and pregnant women). The Power Vinyasa is only 60 mins.....and on some days that is all I have to devote to exercise, so I like that there is variety. Though I think I will always choose to do Bikram given the time, on those days where I want to get in some yoga but cannot devote 90 mins I like that I have a choice. Variety is the spice of life, after all! So I think that maybe some variations may help you attract (and keep!) a bigger group of yogis. Good luck to you!  |
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| The problem I have with Bikram is not his practice but his "Business Practice." He told many people to come to training and pay him $5000 and then go open a studio. I have nothing wrong with this. There is demand and he can charge whateve he likes. Time and energy are of value and we should all agree he can charge what he wants.
However, he never set any standards for the teachers in his early trainings (I think before 2001 there were no ground rules). More specifically, there were no franchise rules and/or fees. Therefore, a teacher, should be able to open a studio under any name and teach Bikram Yoga if they never signed an official agreement, which many teachers never did. This is Bikram's fault. In addition, if that teacher feels the studio should offer Ashtanga Yoga, Iyengar Yoga, or any other type of Yoga then the teacher/studio owner should be able to offer yoga. We never signed an agreement and felt that we should be able to do what we felt was right for the business. Bikram was not providing support in the form of teachers, advertising, business methods, etc. He did provide training, which we paid for and are grateful for. However, there was nothing else that came with it..... Most importantly, we never signed any agreement. That is why Bikram could never come after us. Open source was suing for the wrong reason.... They should have sued him for faulty business practices.....not for the sequence.
Bikram is to restrictive in his business practices. He is a fool..... Why not let another studio offer multiple classes, especially if, they call the Bikram Class, Bikram Yoga, and have a teacher trained by him....This would provide more exposure to the Yoga.
I understand he was trying to protect his teachers but he did a terrible job. San Fran is a great example... He let teachers open on opposite corners. He never provided any protection to the first mover. His promises were empty
More importantly, Bikram provided no business support to the teachers. How can you ask someone to restrict his/her business to one method if your clientele demand more? The studio's are the ones paying the bills including all advertising. How can you stop a teacher from exploring other methods and offering that teaching method to their students? If the teacher calls it Bikram Yoga and teaches it that way then there is not problem. If the teacher offers a class called Ashtanga then there is no problem. Just respect the lineage and let it grow. Bikram has created ill-will by threatening teachers. He also encourages other studio owners under his name and teachers to do the same. This is a terrible practice.
The orginal teachers, like Jimmy Barkan, never signed franchise or licensing agreements and therefore should not have to comply with Bikram's unreasonable business demands/requests.
As a former owner and operator of a profitable successful studio, it is unreal to think that a teacher treats his students in this manner. Bikram Yoga is good. Bikram the person is evil.... There are so many miserable studio owners out there because Bikram does not run a supportive environment. There is a lot of competition and backstabbing going on...... I sold my studio to non-bikram owners because of this environment. The new owners have gone on to create one of the most successful studios in Boston.... Bikram is not the only way..... It is good sequence and I give Bikram credit for taking this from his guru and profiting from iti n America ...
Teachers get so burned out and running a studio is difficult. Furthermore, Bikram does not adequately train teachers. Bikram does not even practice his own yoga. He burned himself out. Bikram will always be around but he has lost some of the best teachers because he does not encourage growth. He wants you to sit there with a locked out knee and that is it.
Watch how studio's change hands or close all the time. I would never recommend opening a studio under Bikram.. Go and enjoy your practice....
Edited by tsurfs 2006-05-30 3:27 PM
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Studio Owners...
