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| I know we're supposed to breath "in by the nose and out by the nose." I know that nose breathing is supposed to be "calming" and that mouth breathing is supposed to make you panicky, but when I need more air and nose breathing isn't getting it done, THAT Makes me panicky. Also, if I get too hot I'm positive that I can reduce my body temperature much better by breathing at least out through the mouth. I can almost SEE the steam in my breath when it contacts the "cool" 105 degree room air. I don't know why, but nose breath seems much dryer and doesn't do much for internal cooling.
Any thoughts? |
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Expert Yogi
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| I don't know about Bikram, but almost all yoga says nose breathing only. Apparently BKS has said it is ok to breathe through your mouth as long as you are willing to be fed through your nose   |
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| NO BIG DEAL
no big deal
keep practicing and you will calm down to the point where you can breath easily through your nose |
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| If you're unable to breath through the nose, it's a good sign that you should go into child's pose. |
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| The question is absurd. Breathing has nothing to do with cooling. If you are feeling hot, take a class of cool (NOT cold) water. And, definitely lower the temperature!!! |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-05-20 11:43 PM
The question is absurd. Breathing has nothing to do with cooling.
Huh? Ujjiya is specifically designed to increase heat in the body. HYP lists Sheetali Pranayama as being cooling. The body uses the breath to help regulate it's heating and cooling. |
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| The 'recharge' is also designed to create heat. But there is the possibility that, John, your body type isn't meant to be doing strenuous activities in the high heat. Check your doshas-find out your body type, or have you done that already? |
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Location: London, England | Hi Greenjello,
Couldn't agree more-there are different mechanisms by which body temperature is regulated-metabolic rate, dilation of capillaries under the skin, sweating, and expelling body heat through breathing. Of course, if the air is heated, then the ability to use this part of the mechanism may be reduced.
Take care
Nick |
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| I have always only nose breathed during bikram. After reading this thread I decided to see how it went to mouth breathe. I tried to for a bit during balancing series without a lot of success. I found it much harder to keep my focus. I wound up mouth breathing through most of floor series though. I'll admit that you get a lot of heat out on the exhales that way but I think you also wind up taking more in. When I tried to go back to nose breathing after the mouth breathing it made me feel really anxious. I felt the same panic feeling you're talking about...but I worked through it and was fine by the end.
I'll never do that again. lol But it was interesting to experiment with. |
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| There's "cooling breath" which is basically in through the mouth, out through the nose. Sheetali Pranayama.
edit: duh, missed GJs post with the same thing,
Edited by aystam 2006-05-22 9:50 AM
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| GJ: Huh? Ujjiya is specifically designed to increase heat in the body. HYP lists Sheetali Pranayama as being cooling. The body uses the breath to help regulate it's heating and cooling.
===> Dear GJ. I am glad that in long time you have posted something NOT related to girls. I hope you are proceeding towards wedding soon. Is that hot or cool! Ujjayi does NOT heat the body, neither Sheetali cools it. Body heat is produced by the metabolism of food and oxygen previously taken in the body. Cooling is mostly handled by the skin, and is to be accomplished by outside temperature control via sweating, and drinking of cool (NOT cold) water through the mouth. Breathing is not to be used for cooling, except in emergency.
When Ujjayi is done, it needs extra work on the part of the system in addition to normal movement of body parts, and therefore, it produces heat by consuming energy, not giving the energy. Heat is NOT the purpose, it is the product of action which is part of the purpose.
In Sheetali, the purpose is NOT cooling, but it is the feeling which is described.
In other words, when one is cold winter season, one does not do Ujjayi for heating. And, when one is in Hot Arizona desert, one does not use Sheetali for cooling. In these two instances, they automatically run to Fire/Heater/WarmClothes and AirConditioning/Water/ColdDrinks etc. |
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| Raina - 2006-05-22 8:06 AM
I have always only nose breathed during bikram. After reading this thread I decided to see how it went to mouth breathe. I tried to for a bit during balancing series without a lot of success. I found it much harder to keep my focus. I wound up mouth breathing through most of floor series though. I'll admit that you get a lot of heat out on the exhales that way but I think you also wind up taking more in. When I tried to go back to nose breathing after the mouth breathing it made me feel really anxious. I felt the same panic feeling you're talking about...but I worked through it and was fine by the end.
I'll never do that again. lol But it was interesting to experiment with.
Your reply was helpful! I try to stick to the nose breathing as much as possible. It is only sometimes that it doesn't seem to cycle enough air through that I get tempted to use mouth breathing. Perhaps when that time comes I'm already too far behind. I think my "dosha" must be fine because I love my practice whether I stay strong all the way through, or have to rest during a portion, or have to lay out the last thirty minutes. I always feel great at the end. |
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| I have 2 people who almost always practice on either side who call me their "breathing buddy" and say that my breathing and focus helps keep them on track. The funny thing is that my sister did her 3rd bikram class ever with me yesterday and told me that my breathing irritated her. lol I guess you can't please everyone.
I got a lot warmer and at least for me, had less focus when I was mouth breathing. It was an interesting experiment though. I couldn't believe how anxious I got though when I started breathing like I usually do. |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-05-22 10:36 AM
Dear GJ. I am glad that in long time you have posted something NOT related to girls.
I post lots of things that don't have anything to do with girls, you must be missing most of my posts somehow.
Ujjayi does NOT heat the body,
This is in direct contradiction to the instructions given by my yoga instructor, who claims 20 years of study.
neither Sheetali cools it.
This is in direct contradiction with the commentary found in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika by Swami Muktibodhananda pg 249. What are your sources of information?
Body heat is produced by the metabolism of food and oxygen previously taken in the body. Cooling is mostly handled by the skin, and is to be accomplished by outside temperature control via sweating, and drinking of cool (NOT cold) water through the mouth.
True, but it's not the only way, and it's completely beside the point that the breath is used to heat and cool the body. This is my understanding from my limited exposure to basic western medicine, and the sources sited above.
When Ujjayi is done, it needs extra work on the part of the system in addition to normal movement of body parts, and therefore, it produces heat by consuming energy, not giving the energy. Heat is NOT the purpose, it is the product of action which is part of the purpose.
In Sheetali, the purpose is NOT cooling, but it is the feeling which is described.
Now you are contradicting your earlier statements. The simple truth is that both these techniques effect the temperature of the body, so ujjiya breathe might be a good thing to avoid in a hot bikram class. The actual mechanism is irrevelevant. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I do both kinds of breathing during Bikram. I breathe in through my nose and breath out of my mouth on the exhale. This is how I do it today, that may change later. Some postures I breath differently...it just all depends. I think its appropriate to do both and it should be a matter of where you are at today with your practice. The breathing does take a lot of practice to master as well. Sometimes, If I breath through my nose only, I find that I have a tendency to hold my breath...so I let the air out of my mouth on the exhale. On the other hand, If I breathe through my mouth only, then I don't feel like I'm getting enough oxygen and.....I don't feel like I can start the next posture cleanly because of all the residue from the previous, and breathing is an important aspect of this process of starting each posture with a CLEAN slate. I don't know how to explain the 20/80 breathing method in words, maybe YogaBrian can, but I think I do it almost successfully.....although, I incorporate other breathing methods into my practice anyway. I basically do what I feel is right at that time and having a good instructor telling you when to inhale and exhale helps alot too!! That is how I learned, so I can practice by myself successfully...otherwise, I'd be confused as heck on the Bikram style of breathing since it is never consistant in the studios and every teacher does it differently. I really feel it's important to breath properly during the series though, it makes a huge difference. If I don't, I feel wiped out and drained. I hate it that there is not much emphasis on this real important aspect of the practice while in the Bikram studios and this is why I like my home practice and my instructor who is very knowledgeable and trained. I'm so spoiled,
Edited by Cyndi 2006-05-22 9:12 PM
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| GreenJello - 2006-05-22 8:29 PM
kulkarnn - 2006-05-22 10:36 AM
Dear GJ. I am glad that in long time you have posted something NOT related to girls.
I post lots of things that don't have anything to do with girls, you must be missing most of my posts somehow.
===> I apologize for this overlook. But, that impression will go when you get married finally.
Ujjayi does NOT heat the body,
This is in direct contradiction to the instructions given by my yoga instructor, who claims 20 years of study.
===> That does not surprise me. Please show the instructor my previous post completely and let me know what he/she says.
neither Sheetali cools it.
This is in direct contradiction with the commentary found in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika by Swami Muktibodhananda pg 249. What are your sources of information?
===> HathaYogaPradipika can not be learnt only from its translation or commentary. Same with Shree Patanjalayogadarshanam. They are contextual texts. And, if you read the HYP, it states that a real knowledge can be obtained from an Experienced (in fact Realized ) instruction and own dedicated practice and studies.
Body heat is produced by the metabolism of food and oxygen previously taken in the body. Cooling is mostly handled by the skin, and is to be accomplished by outside temperature control via sweating, and drinking of cool (NOT cold) water through the mouth.
True, but it's not the only way, and it's completely beside the point that the breath is used to heat and cool the body. This is my understanding from my limited exposure to basic western medicine, and the sources sited above.
===> As for this particular point of metabolism, Western Medicine, etc., the knowledge can be obtained from a teacher and/or books, because they are material sciences. Yoga knowledge can not be obtained only from books. Please see above response again.
When Ujjayi is done, it needs extra work on the part of the system in addition to normal movement of body parts, and therefore, it produces heat by consuming energy, not giving the energy. Heat is NOT the purpose, it is the product of action which is part of the purpose.
In Sheetali, the purpose is NOT cooling, but it is the feeling which is described.
Now you are contradicting your earlier statements. The simple truth is that both these techniques effect the temperature of the body, so ujjiya breathe might be a good thing to avoid in a hot bikram class. The actual mechanism is irrevelevant.
===> Contradiction is apparent when it is seen from an effect point of view, that is physical or material. But, there is no contradiction, which I meant. My statements are meant with purpose in mind of these actions. Yes, heat is produced in Ujjayi as an effect and that is not the purpose. For example, heat is produced by taking hot shower, but Yoga books say, do not take hot showers or do not do Yoga in hot sun. Same way, cooling can be produced by air conditioning, but the Yoga books say do not do yoga in cold breeze, etc.
===> It is not possible to give complete class. But, you can ask your teacher assuming that he/she has proper experience Or you can write to Swami Muktananda or his real disciple ,
whether it is ok to use Sheetali to cool body while doing Yoga in Hot Room.
I am sure they will answer: That is absurd! |
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| To add to the above:
Dear GJ: I forgot to answer one of your query: What are my sources of Information: a) My Yoga Studies b) See the HathayogaPradipika Translation Parts below:
Chapter on Pranayama:
1. Posture becoming established, a Yogi, master of himself, eating salutary and moderate food, should practice pranayama, as instructed by his guru.
2. Respiration being disturbed, the mind becomes disturbed. By restraining respiration, the Yogi gets steadiness of mind.
3. So long as the (breathing) air stays in the body, it is called life. Death consists in the passing out of the (breathing) air. It is, therefore, necessary to restrain the breath.
4. The breath does not pass through the middle channel (susumna), owing to the impurities of the nadis. How can then success be attained, and how can there be the unmani avastha.
5. When the whole system of the nadis which is full of impurities, is cleaned, then the Yogi becomes able to control the Prana.
6. Therefore, Pranayama should be performed daily with satwika buddhi (intellect free from raja and tama or activity and sloth), in order to drive out the impurities of the susumna.
Sitali.
57. As in the above (Sitkari), the tongue to be protruded a little out of the lips, when the air is drawn in. It is kept confined, as before, and then expelled slowly through the nostrils.
58. This Sitali Kumbhaka cures colic, (enlarged) spleen, fever, disorders of bile, hunger, thirst, and counteracts poisons.
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| Neel, this all makes sense to me, but I think it's irrelevant. Either the breath effects body temperature or it doesn't. If it does effect body temperature, then does modifying it matter? If it does (which is my understanding) then we should avoid modifications which increase heat, such as ujjiya. |
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| I like making a tube with my tongue and breathing through that
but
that's just me
because during exhalation i can do a low tone whistle |
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Location: London, England | Hi Greenjuello,
I believe the answer is yes, breathing does affect body temperature, but I wouldn't go down the route of using it as such. Instead wear the right clothes in the right temperature room.
Nick |
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| GreenJello - 2006-05-23 2:30 PM
Neel, this all makes sense to me, but I think it's irrelevant. Either the breath effects body temperature or it doesn't. If it does effect body temperature, then does modifying it matter? If it does (which is my understanding) then we should avoid modifications which increase heat, such as ujjiya.
===> Hey GJ. Sorry for any confusion. Now, let me start fresh. What happens is: The original question was whether the questioner should use breathing for heating/cooling. My answer was breathing has nothing to do with cooling/heating. My response was Breathing has nothing to do with Heating/Cooling. What I meant was: Yoga Breathing during the exercise such as the one questioner is doing, has nothing to do with heating/cooling as a purpose of heating. To this you wrote: Huh? Ujjiya is specifically designed to increase heat in the body. HYP lists Sheetali Pranayama as being cooling. The body uses the breath to help regulate it's heating and cooling.
===> Now, actually Ujjayi is NOT specifically designed for heating the body. and ****ali is not designed for cooling it. I already quoted HYP on ****ali. You can see the Ujjayi there, too, perhaps.
===> What I meant or meant to mean is: Ujjayi and ****ali should not be used for heating/cooling purposes (Actually, I can now add that they do not actually heat/cool in a great extent such as heating/cooling the room, or taking hot/cold shower, etc.) during Yoga Exercises. They are actually Pranayama practices to be done as Pranayama. Now, Ujjayi is done during Ashtanga Style exercise, with purpose mainly of focussing. And, that I do not wish to debate here much. But, Sheetali is ridiculous during Bikram practice to cool the body.
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Location: London, England | Hi Neel,
You said "Now, Ujjayi is done during Ashtanga Style exercise, with purpose mainly of focussing.".
Focussing is an aspect of ujjayi breathing during astanga yoga, but I do not believe that it is the main purpose. Astanga yoga is an 'athletic' exercise, but differs ffrom a simple sporting exercise in that whereas in a sport you would probably try to move as quickly as possible, in astanga yoga you are trying to move slower, most of the time. The throat is tightened to place more resistance to the passing of air. This has been likened to the weight of the valve on a pressure cooker-the greater the weight of the valve, the greater the pressure in the cooker. The sound that is made is therefore an indication of the kinds of pressures that you are allowing to build up-the greater the pressure, the stiffer the torso, in general. the trick is to only use the right valve for the right food, or to tighten the vocal cords adequately, to create appropiate pressure in the torso.
With a pressure cooker, you can see if the cooker has run out of water if there is no steam coming out of the valve. In ujjayi breathing, or most other forms of yoga breathing, you can listen to the sound to detect whether you are builiding up a good head of steam (and in order to stop this post becoming a series of analogies, because I was about to move onto steam engines  , I'll stop there)
Take care
Nick |
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| Hey Nick: I like all this steam engine and valves and weights. Now, when the pressure is built using breathing, MORE air should go in. And, only when more air is in, one should regulate it. However, in Ujjayi, the sound is made as you breath in. And, HathaYogaPradipika says, one should practice Ujjayi all the time while walking and all other. Does it mean that one is always a steam Engine.
Let us continue this interesting discussion. Thanks. |
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Location: London, England | kulkarnn - 2006-05-24 3:13 PM
Hey Nick: I like all this steam engine and valves and weights. Now, when the pressure is built using breathing, MORE air should go in. And, only when more air is in, one should regulate it. However, in Ujjayi, the sound is made as you breath in. And, HathaYogaPradipika says, one should practice Ujjayi all the time while walking and all other. Does it mean that one is always a steam Engine.
Let us continue this interesting discussion. Thanks.
Hi Neel,
Just to clarify, pressure does not build to let more in, but rather the pressure is built by a greater intake of air-the more air, the greater the pressure on the walls of the thoracic cage.
I've never seen that instruction to only make the noise as you inhale, but have always been taught to make the sound on the exhale as well.
Should we do ujayi all the time? Probably not-you wouldn't be able to think of anything else or talk!
Are we like steam engines? The act of breathing in elevates the ribs and provides an opportunity to change the way in which the arms hang from the body, so that when we begin to move, the swing of the arms will probably be diffeent according to the type of breather we are. So how you do ujjayi breathing will alter the support that the rib cage and thoracic spine give to the shoulders.Put more simply, the structure and function of the rib cage will offer support to the shoulder structure and function. The thoracic cage will also affect the positon of the head and neck, lumbar spine, and support of the heart, lungs and abdominal contents.
In a steam engine, steam drives a piston which turns a wheel. In the human body, the diaphragm (piston) alters the shape of the thoracic cage (boiler), so that the design and function of the arm (wheel) changes. So you will see that the steam engine analogy breaks down a little!
And what about the legs? They are the human means of locomotion (apart from if you are doing a yoga pose like bakasana, or dips or press-ups). Astanga yoga uses bandha to create a link between the pressure built up in the thorax to a build up of pressure in the abdominal cavity. The pelvis, at the bottom of the abdominal cavity, provides attachment for the muscles and bones of the legs. Pressurizing the abdominal cavity enhances the stiffness of the muscles surrounding it, and the hip muscles then have a more stable foundation from which to move the leg or be strtched by a yoga pose. It should be mentioned at this point that whilst an olympic weightlifter may hold their breath (valsalva maneuvre) to take advantage of the torso bracing effect (may also work by lowering the tranmural gradient in the central nervous system, which can be a cause of blackout and stroke in weightlifters), it should never be done in a therapeutic exercise class such as yoga. Because breath retention is not done in yoga, but only in pranayama, I am not sure if the same rules apply, but I never, ever, tezach breath retention-I don't want to be the first to kill someone (I wouldn't be surprised if it had already happened, unfortunately).
So is there an engine as such? Search the web for articles by Serge Gracovetsky, who proposed the spinal engine theory, where the power to walk or run is derived from the gluteal muscles, just as the muscles of the fish's body drive the tail fin-in this way, the fin only amplifies the force of the muscles-as we came onto land, the fins became limbs which had their own muscles-but the theory proposes that the original mechanism has not been dumped, but developed.
The theory then states that the energy is transferred into the thorax (see how when you run, as your right leg swings fowards, your left arm swing fowards). The thorax is then oscillating with each movement of the pelvis-The spinal engine!!
This theory has been questioned, but i feel that it is very useful in yoga to understand what to impact when we train. Using the hips as the basis of locomoting into postures means that we find the most appropiate pelvic tilt, so that the pelvis is best aligned in each move or posture.
Take care
Nick |
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| Hey Nick: Let me make 2 quick points: a) Please refer to Ujjayi description on HYP. I do not have it with me now. And, please check whether it states that a Yogi should perform Ujjayi Breathing all the time. b) Now, in Ashtanga Style exercise system, do they actually explain the purpose of Ujjayi as you described?
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Nose v. Mouth Breathing
