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Location: London, England | Hi Neel,
Will ceck up on the HYP description of pranayama. As far as astanga yoga goes, no, i dont believe that ujayi breathing is described in the way that I described it. What I do is use my training to find out what is the purpose on a physical basis of using a posture or a breathing style-this allows me to find reasons for using a technique, or modifying a posture, so that if my teacher has misunderstood the purpose of a pose, then I can translate it into something that is good for me, rather than just taking it on blind faith that it is the right thing to do. i do not see this as arrogant, but as the technique evolving for the better over time-the more we know about the purpose of yoga in physical terms, the better off we are. i guess i have a foot in both camps, i love to have my head stuffed in a good textbook, as much as i love being able to do yoga in the knowledge that it is good for me, and that this knowledge is not a figment of my imagination. 
Take care
Nick |
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| HYP list ujjiya as primarily used for focusing, and turning the attention inward, and to more subtle levels. It indicates that this breath may be used when "moving, standing, sitting, or walking". The original sanskrit indicates that it should be used with Kumbhaka, though the commentary indicates that this is not a good idea for strenous exercise, such as yoga.
My instructors have all indicated that ujjiya should be used throughout the entire practice, with the exception of savasana, where we should release all control of the breath. Reading the description of where it may be used, it appears that it CAN be used almost throughout the entire day, and I see no warnings against doing so.
HYP also indicates that it's a natural consequence of heighted concentration.
Finally, I think the local instructors use it as a no BS test to see who's really working at it. The people who are lost in their heads tend to drop this breathing, at least until it becomes second nature. |
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| Dear GJ: Thanks for all above comments, etc. And, also to Nick. Now, you shall understand that Yoga Practice, and especially Pranayama is to be learnt from a well experienced teacher. The facts, from my, limited intelligence are as follows, though it will be very long and difficult to discuss them in details:
- Ujjayi is a Pranayama practice and NOT just Asana Practice.
- Pranayama Practice is to be done only when posture which is steady and comfortable is established, NOT otherwise.
- Ujjayi when done during the whole day in all activities is to be done ONLY by a dedicated Yogi, whose whole life is Yoga as secluded practice. It is NOT to be done so by a Yoga student who goes to class once a week or does an hour a day.
- Ujjayi in Ashtanga is used only with the assumption that Ashtanga style exercise is very easy for that student. 90 percent (I dare to say 99 percent!) students all over the world do NOT qualify for this. When, one is extremely strong, athletic, dedicated, regular, disciplined, etc. Ashtanga Style exercise shall give fantastic results. And, the Ujjayi can be performed along with that exercise with good benefit. Otherwise, one should NOT get into Ashtanga Style exercise. That is the reason why: a) only few such as Richard Freedman have been able to excel in it. b) Why many who do the exercise, and are considered famous demonstrate NON aligned poses. c) Why even great Ashtanga Style exercisers such as Richard Freedman seek Iyengar Style exercise for alignment, etc.
And, lastly, anyway, Ujjayi Style and Sheetali style breathing has NOTHING to do with heating/cooling as related to Yoga Exercise. And, it is absurd to perform them with Heated Room. Pranayama should never be performed in Heated Room. |
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| kulkarnn - 2006-05-25 10:22 AM
- Ujjayi is a Pranayama practice and NOT just Asana Practice.
Sure
- Pranayama Practice is to be done only when posture which is steady and comfortable is established, NOT otherwise.
I find the ujjayi helps to establish this, particular with standing poses, which is pretty much the instruction I've been given.
- Ujjayi when done during the whole day in all activities is to be done ONLY by a dedicated Yogi, whose whole life is Yoga as secluded practice. It is NOT to be done so by a Yoga student who goes to class once a week or does an hour a day.
Why? I haven't really heard anything either way. I think it would take a long long time to get to the point that you were doing it all the time, and people would probably think it a bit odd.
- Ujjayi in Ashtanga is used only with the assumption that Ashtanga style exercise is very easy for that student.
I don't think this is the case, rather quite the opposite. They use it to help make the exercises easier. This is pretty common in most athletic pursuits, where there are a variety of breathing techniques practiced, depending upon the sport.
We can go back and forth as to whether or not this violates the ideal of a steady and comfortable position. I think that what's required for the pranayama depends upon the particular technique that is being practiced. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Greenjello,
I think that perhaps if we were to practice ujjayi the whole day then it would have several negative effects-first of all, breathing in the same pattern would make the muscles responsible ofr that pattern become fatigued, and you really don't want this. Instead, we should train these muscles during our yoga session, so that they can do more without getting fatigued. Also, if we practice breathing in one way only, there is a possibility (a very strong one) that we are overiding the mechanism which alters our breathing according to the levels of carbon dioxide. If you hold your breath, all of the unpleasant things that tell you to start breathing again are not a result of lack of oxygen, but of a build up of carbon dioxide. Do this for any length of time and you become a hyper-ventilator, prone to paniv attacks and unexplained anxiety. So let's keep it in the yoga session!
Take care
Nick |
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| Nick - 2006-05-25 2:21 PM
Hi Greenjello,
I think that perhaps if we were to practice ujjayi the whole day then it would have several negative effects-first of all, breathing in the same pattern would make the muscles responsible ofr that pattern become fatigued, and you really don't want this.
Maybe, if these muscles were like the ones in our arms and legs. The fact is that the human body is constantly using muscles throught the day, otherwise we'd all be puddles of goo on the floor. In the case of breathing, there is constant exertion to draw in breath. Is one method more strenous than another? Or is it a matter of what the body has gotten used to? If it's a matter of habit, one habit might be better than another.
Also, if we practice breathing in one way only, there is a possibility (a very strong one ) that we are overiding the mechanism which alters our breathing according to the levels of carbon dioxide. If you hold your breath, all of the unpleasant things that tell you to start breathing again are not a result of lack of oxygen, but of a build up of carbon dioxide. Do this for any length of time and you become a hyper-ventilator, prone to paniv attacks and unexplained anxiety. So let's keep it in the yoga session!
This is all based on the assumption that we won't get enough oxygen via ujjiya. If this is the case it shouldn't be possible to do if for an entire 1 1/2 hour yoga session. For that matter, you should start having problems in a few minutes. |
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| how about for those who have all day to perform hatha and then meditation?
can those practice breath control all day? |
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Location: London, England | Hi Greenjello,
These muscles are like the ones in our arms and our legs!There are methods of breathing that are more strenuous than others, and ujjayi breathing is one of them. This is why we get better when we practice it-by the law of specific adaptation to imposed demands (SAID principles). There is no one type of breath that is superior to others, but hwat is superior is to be able to perfectly adapt your breathing to the demands that you face, both in respiration and exertion.
"This is all based on the assumption that we won't get enough oxygen via ujjiya. If this is the case it shouldn't be possible to do if for an entire 1 1/2 hour yoga session. For that matter, you should start having problems in a few minutes"
No, hang on, I didn't say that ujjayi breathing would not give you enough oxygen. In fact, when you breathe out, the air will contain enough oxygen to make it useful for giving mouth to mouth rescucitation-we don't use all of it. In fact, we do not use all of it even when it is inside our bodies-we do not use it all, even under extreme exertion. To run out of oxygen, you would need to be in an oxygen-free environment. The problem, as I said, would be the act of breathing in the same way, indisciminately of the demands of life.
Take care
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi Steven,
I don't know-but I do know that even if an athlete has all day to train, they do not train all day. this optimizes the effects and minimizes likelyhood of injury. I Know that yoga is not a sporting endevour, but it can be fairly athletic. in fact, from a physical standpoint, that is exactly what we attempt to attain
Take care
Nick |
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| Nick - 2006-05-25 3:07 PM
Hi Steven,
I don't know-but I do know that even if an athlete has all day to train, they do not train all day. this optimizes the effects and minimizes likelyhood of injury. I Know that yoga is not a sporting endevour, but it can be fairly athletic. in fact, from a physical standpoint, that is exactly what we attempt to attain
Take care
Nick
I'm imagining a monastic existence where this may occur, possibly when the chores are complete.
And then, to what avail would all this breathing take?
but, i'm a householder. |
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| Nick - 2006-05-25 3:07 PM
Hi Steven,
I don't know-but I do know that even if an athlete has all day to train, they do not train all day. this optimizes the effects and minimizes likelyhood of injury. I Know that yoga is not a sporting endevour, but it can be fairly athletic.
Asana might be, pranayam is not. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Greenjello,
Why is asana possibly athletic, and pranayama not? All involve optimizing the skeletal muscles and joint positions.
take care
Nick |
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| Gee, I meant something else. I am not advising one to do Ujjayi all day. In fact, I am advising them NOT to do it all day, in today's times. What I said was that the statement in HYP about doing it all day applies to the one who is dedicated Yogi who is secluded and NOT working 8 hours in IBM corporation.
Also, remember that HYP kind of Yogi will have proper daily routine, not studying at night with electric lamps, shall have natural food, unpolluted air, enough rest, etc.
Also, Pranayama is not supposed to be athletic and its purpose is to do with mind more than body.
Yes, Ujjayi breathing shall make the Astanga Style exercise slightly easier as you are breathing. However, it does not have to be Ujjayi breathing. Any coordinated breathing shall do so. And, that happens for any activity as GJ said. But, that is NOT the purpose of Ujjayi in Ashtanga Style exercise. There is NO doubt that Ashtanga Style exercise demands prior background in terms of body to be of great use. |
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Location: London, England | Hi All,
I fully accept that there is a huge mental aspect to pranayama-but there is to asana as well. I think that we should not say that there is no athletic element to breathing control-in fact I've seen lots of sportsmen and women become expert at mental imagery and other psychological preparation-the mind is as important as the body in sport.
Nick
p.s also, i don't think that astanga yoga requires anything special about the body prior to taking it up. I've taught pregnant women up till the week they gave birth, I've helped a woman through birth using ujjayi breathing, I've come up against serious diseases such as MS, where people have lost control of their muscles, but then regained control by practicing astanga yoga-so when you meet people like that, it is they who actually get the most out of practice-not the more athletically endowed, for whom the benefits are merely a workout |
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| I ment athletic in the vigorously active sense. Some pranayama falls into this category, ujjayi does not, IMHO. |
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Location: London, England | GreenJello - 2006-05-26 2:53 PM
I ment athletic in the vigorously active sense. Some pranayama falls into this category, ujjayi does not, IMHO.
Hi greenjello,
Surely ujjayi breathing is active-the lift of the ribcage, which is negligible in quiet breathing, is proof of that. the fact that it is not done quickly is not relevant-it takes greater power to control the flow skilfully, than it does to breathe quickly-the restriction in the throat takes care of that.
When we add postures which impede breathing flow, such as lifting into a handstand or pressing our thigh up against our chest or putting the leg behind the head-these all create impediments to our breathing fully, an obstacle which is overcome by the athletic endoevour of ujjayi breathing. A yoga posture may be defined as being more advanced by the restiction it places on optimal breathing-the more advanced postures are very hard to breathe in, let alone breathe deeply.
Take care
Nick |
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| Right, hence the use of the term vigorously active, not just active. I don't consider the amount of effort required to practice ujjayi to be vigorous in an of it's self. It is possible to make it harder, such as shoulderstand, but I usually don't use that sort of posture in normal, every day, life.
Contrast ujjayi with pranayama such as bhastrika, which is vigorously active. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Greenjello,
Ujjayi breathing is not as active as bhastrika-but both of them are diminished by a less than optimal respiratory system and/or bad posture. Just as a sportsperson gets stronger by doing all sorts of exercises, not just, say, throwing the javelin, so it is best to test the thoracic cage and its muscles by doing different exercises at different speeds, to develop power and stamna.
In this way, bhastrika may be a more powerful exercise than ujjayi, but it does not optimize the system in the same way as ujjayi, which probably demands greater stamina of the breathing muscles. Ans stamina is something every athlete needs, even the sprinters.
Nick |
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| Nick wrote: p.s also, i don't think that astanga yoga requires anything special about the body prior to taking it up. I've taught pregnant women up till the week they gave birth, I've helped a woman through birth using ujjayi breathing, I've come up against serious diseases such as MS, where people have lost control of their muscles, but then regained control by practicing astanga yoga-so when you meet people like that, it is they who actually get the most out of practice-not the more athletically endowed, for whom the benefits are merely a workout
===> Well, if he has a sufficient experience in Ashtanga Style exercise, and he has seen many ordinary people getting a great benefit without any injuries, I accept this argument. But, if given chance, I shall like to walk randomly into 3 Ashtanga Style classes to confirm this, and I shall like one of you to come with me. Any volunteers? How about GJ? |
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| Before we do that we need to agree exactly what constitues "Ashtanga Exercise". I think Nick means hatha yoga in a flow based style. I'm not sure what you mean Neel, but if it's the primary series, then you're correct, very very few people can do that. For that matter I had a huge amount of trouble with just a level 1 ashtanga class, it's very demanding. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Neel,
Sorry, you are quite right-but this is surely a result of the teacher not having enough knowledge to adapt the practice according to the needs of the individual. Unfortunately, many astanga teachers will only stick to a series of postures-and again, if any of these teachers had any idea about anatomy and physiology, then they would not do that. Astanga may be an excellent exercise, but when the teacher refuses to compromize, then it's worthless for amny people, just as you. If I had taken that approach, then a young man with MS may not be walking today, because when doing yoga he regained nervous control of his quadricep muscle. That in itself made my teaching carreer worthwhile.
This insistence that the series is done without adaptation and experimentation means that Astanga will stop evolving in any meaningful way, and will increasingly be shown to be worthless for many people. This will happen because science will become interested in yoga as more people discover that they have been injured by their practice, and medical techniques will probably evolve which will place the blame squarely at the teacher's door. I believe that this time may be very close (but dont hold your breath-you know what I think about that ).
i hardly ever go to yoga classes, Neel, because teachers are so bad at adjusting-because of my chiropractic training, I know how to adjust muscles and joints-I have been to some of the top teachers in the world and have seen them adjusting students in the most stupid ways-it's like watching a caveman discover chiropractic using a club!
So, no thanks on the astanga class!
Take care
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi greenjello,
"Before we do that we need to agree exactly what constitues "Ashtanga Exercise". I think Nick means hatha yoga in a flow based style. I'm not sure what you mean Neel, but if it's the primary series, then you're correct, very very few people can do that. For that matter I had a huge amount of trouble with just a level 1 ashtanga class, it's very demanding."
Yes you are quite right, as I said above, I dont believe in the strict adherence to a series-one size does definitely fit all!! many people who follow the Mysore code would then say that i do not teach Astanga, and In a sense I guess they are right, but for me, i don't care what the name is, as long as i'm teaching the most formidable exercise system in the world, or one of them, then I don't care-I don't want to teach Astanga yoga, I want to increase the quality and quantity of people's lives by helping them to train in something that is difficult for them-this is why the Mysore style becomes a foolish endevour-making people do something which is impossible or injury-producing does not allow them to adapt, but is ultimately futile-astanga yoga makes fools out of those who do not practice it wisely.
By the way, you know you said a level 1 class is very demanding? when my brother and I wanted to learn the third series, my teacher came to England in the summer, and was teaching classes in the morning and early evening. We went to both classes, and did the second series in the morning, and the third series in the evening. I still can't believe how fit I used to be (resting heart rate 40 BPM-actually it still is). I think we both collapsed after about three days and just started doing the morning classes
Talking about these classes reminds me of something I witnessed which serves to illustrate what I was saying above. A teacher at the club where I work asked me to look at his knee which was giving him trouble. i have never palpated a knee which was so unstable-it felt like he had destroyed all of the ligaments-there was nothing to stop it twisting or being shunted around. he had destroyed his knee by diligently practicing astanga yoga. His mysore teachers (two of the top astanga teachers in england) had made him do exercises to completely destroy his knee. It was very sad, this young man who was so keen, and who had used his willingness to learn to destroy the largest joint in his body. I would forecast a lot of pain and knee replacement operation for him within the next few years. Actually he is already in a lot of pain. He wasd thrown out of the club for adjusting students in a manner which the studio coordinator felt was too vigorous, and I had to agree with him.
The point of the story is that he went to see Danny Paradise, my teacher-I think that Danny reprsents the second method of teaching Astanga yoga, which is much more nurturing. He spotted this teacher trying to force one knee into lotus for maricyasana b, and told him to stop if he wanted his knee to get better. The teacher stoppped, but all through the class would get to positions which would then lever his knee apart-he couldnt stop himself-his practice of astanga was almost addictive, and his trust and belief in his mysore teachers so strong, that he could not stop doing the things they taught him. it was very sad
Take care
Nick |
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| OK Nick: Thanks for all above explanation and NON Ashtanga Adaptations. GreenJello, so we do not need to walk into a class which is NOT adapted. This all mathes with what I originally meant about Ashtanga Style Exericse. But, I still want to put one small correction to Nick's one statement, which is ONLY my opinion:
It is NOT that Ashatanga Style exercise is messing up the people, but people (who are not fit to do unadapted Ashtanga - in other words Real Ashtanga) are messing up themselves by doing what they are not fit for. It is the fault of people, and NOT that of the Style. |
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Location: London, England | Hi Neel,
I agree it is the people who are messing up astanga yoga-but it is not the students necessarily-it is the senior teachers of this form who should be considered responsible. they are supposed to be the ones who are knowledgeable, yet they are ignorant, and pass on their lack of knowledge to their students. I dont think you can blame the students necessarily, even though they are usually consenting adults-they are told that yoga will help them, and then their teacher willl carry out exactly the same exercise on each person, regardless of their body type. Astanga yoga was meant to be found on some ancient scriptures-if you know of any other form of yoga which has been detailed in this way, please inform me-my understanding is that this simply was not done. Assuming this is so, there is no such thing as 'real' astanga yoga-it is a myth that is a money making venture for those who supplied the lie. This is another reason i dont attend mysore classes-I dont like liars.
I dont think you can say that people are messing themselves up by doing what they are not fit for. It is not usually fitness that is the problem-it is that the style is taught in a too-rigid format, which does not account for the wonderful diversity in people's joints and muscles. One of my aims in writing my book will be to try to show how everyone can practice astanga yoga in a way which is beneficial to them-just as everyone can go for walk and get something out of it.
There is a problem in yoga in general in that each style claims to be the right way-there is a huge amount of rivalry between styles. This is usually about money on the part of the teachers, and ego on the part of the students. I was dismayed when I started practicing yoga to realize this was so, and it has got much worse over twenty years. As a result, I have organized my own practice and teaching so that it is not dependent on the lies and misinformation that spew out from mysore and other places.
Sorry for that little rant, you touched a raw nerve. You sometimes meet mysore-trained teachers, and their air of superiority can be unbelievable-but when it is based on the lies, it gets much worse. It's very insulting to be told that the 5-10 hours of practice that you were doing every day is worthless just because yoyu hadnt given jois loads of money. There's something very cultish about those guys.
Nick |
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| Nick: Now, you are talking! I wanted this to come from Horse's Mouth. That is one who actually performs an exercise with the name Ashtanga and one who also has knowledge of anatomy. I also agree with you that at least Senior Teachers have a responsibility to look after welfare, I mean at least anatomical of their AY students. What I meant by people messing up themselves is: Some (What? Lot off them!) know that they can not actually perform certain exercise, and they are actually injuring themselves. But, even then, they want to jump into a well of gold! |
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Nose v. Mouth Breathing
