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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
   
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I went away this weekend with my girlfriends to this spa. I go once a year and I'm familiar with the Yoga teachers there (who I like a lot). Saturday I wanted to take a Asthanga class taught by this woman Tracy but she was away so this other girl came in. I figured why leave, I'm here to practice and love trying out new instructors so I stayed for the class.
She was in her mid twenties and very nice but a hands on teacher. Well she had me and one other student (who was also an instructor) in pigeon's pose (full extension). My hips are always a little off the floor because I broke my pelvic bone in my early twenties. She came from behind me and started to pull my hips back from the creases. That didn't bother me so much. She then proceeded to place both of her knees on my lower back (sacrum) and place all her wt to take me down further into the pose. I told her my hips will not drop any further without strain. She stayed there placing her wt down on me. I should have said something. I was so passive (and I have personal space issues with being touched too).
Well, guess what? My back is really hurting. Been hurting for two days now. I am so tempted to call the spa and mention this to her superiors. What would you do? 
I really and not fond of hands on. For all who practice touch alignment, how do you know when to not push further.
Mishy |
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| i would be angry at myself for not speaking up. how was she to know if you don't tell her?
also, i would calm down and give her presonal feed back, rather than calling her superiors. See if you can write her a note or email offering the following suggestions:
1. when giving a deep assist, such as the one you describe, be sure to ask students if it's ok and if they feel ok;
2. before class starts, ask everyone to close their eyes and listen to their breath. then, keeping everyone's eye's closed, ask those who wish not to be assisted to raise their hands so that you have a mental note of who doesn't want hands-on assists and who is open to this kind of assisting;
3. before going into a deep assist, ask if the individual would like to go deeper or has any limitations in the pose--this may lead to a different modification of the posture or the use of a prop, or it may lead to a different assist altogether.
----
i write this because i am a late-twenties, hands-on assisting teacher. I do a lot of assists. Now, when i don't know someone--such as i wouldn't know you--i would not usually give a deep assist. i usually do one hand or two finger assists with new-to-me students. but, if i saw, throughout class, that you were adept with postures and had appropriate alignment, i might ask you--would you like a deep assist? do you have anything i need to know about before we do an assist together? is everything feeling ok at this point? where would you like to go deeper/explore more? Then, i do the adjustment. as i'm doing the adjustment, i ask "is this ok? are you still ok? would you like to go farther or back off a bit? everything fine?" i want to make sure that the student knows that s/he has the power and needs to only go as far as they want.
I do not know what her experience or background is, but it's appropriate to give her feed back directly. You don't have to do it in an angry way, but simply in a giving, constructively-critical way. This is a good learning experience for you; it can also be a great learning experience for her.
If you don't like to be touched, tell the teacher as she comes by. If you don't want a deep assist, say so. If it's enough, say 'that's enough." i've done it many times and even gently asked a teacher to let go of me or back off a step or two so that i could realign my locks or whatever other need i had. it's ok to speak up for yourself!
---
since you asked a direct question of 'how do i know" there are a number of ways. With people who are 'new-to-me' and yet adept at postures, i open a dialogue throughout the posture. With people whom i know, i know their bodies well, where they're working. before class or during class i notice what is tight in them and what is open. I know their injuries and i know their movement signatures. i also know their energy and their body language. We have a dialogue throughout and before classes and after--and we have a relationship. For them, i don't have to ask as much becaus ei know them, and they know it's ok to say 'enough' or 'no' to anything that i may bring out.
i've never had a client have an issue with an assist or touch in my classroom. I have had a couple of clients have an issue with an adjustment while i was assisting with another teacher (other teacher was leading the class) because the client wanted the other teacher to assist him/her and not me. Once the person told me this, then i did not assist them. But it wasn't a problem with the technique, so much as a preference on the part of the student.
Edited by zoebird 2005-11-21 11:12 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Yeah, I was thinking I should write her a letter. I would go speak to her directly but it's too far away. When I told her of my injury, the discomfort was apparent in my tone.
Believe me, I am mad I didn't speak up. I actually had trouble getting out of pigeon. That's a new one for me. 
I need to speak up more. Honestly, she didn't seem very experienced, which is fine but she should learn to hone in on body language, signs, cues, etc.....
I do touch assist (but no pressure) but I ALWAYS ask, probably because I am so aware of it for myself. Rahini Yoga is all about modifying the pose for the body!!! Every body is different and treated as such. I think this is so important and should be reinforced over and over with new instructors (touching).
Oh, BTW, I didn't mean anything neg by stating her age.
Mish |
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| well, at a certain level, there's nothing wrong with stating her age. it is pretty basic to assume that if someone is young, they're really new to yoga. they haven't had the opportunity of time to do yoga for a long time. but, regardless of age, many yoga teachers are new to yoga and new to teaching. In my area, it's not uncommon for a person to take yoga for a few weeks or months, then sign up for a four-month teacher training, and then within 1/2 of a year from their first class, start teaching yoga.
also, assisting is taught in my area, but there is a HUGE debate about it. A number of people have been sexually touched in various classes, which has caused some problems. Others have been injured. Other teachers believe that many assist techniques are 'violent body language' and do not maintain appropriate boundaries. So, there's a whole puritanical thing going on in my region. When assisting is taught, what is taught is often 'reactionary' to this--the deep, whole-body, hands-on assists. In the hands of new practitioners and teachers, you do get lots of problems--miscommunication being the biggest.
tone and body language can be hard to read from behind, to be honest--though a person should always work on it. On the student's end, we all need to learn how to speak up for ourselves and not be afraid to upset the teacher with a firm, but kind, "no, thank you." i've had to develop this technique myself--not being to reactive with a hyper "no ouch!" or something. I simply say "i need to back out of this, please." and usually teacher listens, no problem.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Zoe, I like everything you say 
Mishy
Edited by mishoga 2005-11-21 12:20 PM
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| We need to start a Zoebird fan club. Seriously, tremendous guidance. Mish, I know you're angry for not speaking up. I find the more relaxed I am, the more obnoxious the teacher. Here you are at a spa on a break and you probably had you're guard down--don't feel too bad about it. |
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| You're kind of vulnerabe in pigeon pose, especially if somone has their hands (and feet) on you. I can see how it would be hard speak up in the moment.
Zoe did give good advice but if I were the yoga instructor's employer I'd like to know what my paying customers are experiencing. What you communicate to the facility managers/owners doesn't have to be incendary, just an eye-opening experience. Obviously, that particuar yoga instructor is inexperienced as a yoga teacher. This is a great opportunity for her to learn something extremely useful. It's not like you're getting her in trouble. As an employer I would want to constantly improve and offer the best experience possible to the patrons.
I'm just looking at this matter from management's point of view so they can better protect their customers. They probably don't currently have a policy regarding adjusting people in yoga class.
And, lastly, I don't mind being adjusted by a yoga instructor I've come to trust, and that just takes time. At a spa setting I would prefer not being touched, especially if the instructor is young b/c to me that signifies inexperience. |
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| i have a management question, fif, that perhaps you can answer. it's something that gets me confused on a number of occassions.
i often find that when my clients come to me and offer suggestions or ideas, i take them in a spirit of openness and communication, letting them know that i hear them and that i will take their ideas into consideration. I do not take it as a harsh criticism or as a threat to my job or whatever else.
but, i find that when i have managers they often take even the most benign comments as these huge criticisms that often cause a great deal of hysteria among management which then comes back to me as 'you're being a problem.' i'm not quite sure why this happens, but it does happen.
i'll give an example. One of my employers recently added 5 yoga classes to the schedule (sept schedule added 5 to the existing 5 yoga classes for a total of 10 classes per week). After a few weeks, the management decided to cut two classes--one yoga class and one other aerobics class--for scheduling and population/popularity reasons. i was fine with this when one of my yoga classes was cut--it was no problem for me.
but, a few of my clients were really disappointed. they didn't want to take the other yoga classes offered at the same time on different days (with a different teacher), and they weren't able to take the hour-earlier yoga class that i taught. They asked me if there was anything that i would recommend for them, or that i could do to get the class moved up an hour. Since i'm not in charge of these decisions, and i suggested that they take the other yoga classes at the more convienient time with a different teacher and they didn't like that suggestion, i told them to fill out a comment card that the management reads.
I then contacted my manager and told her of the situation and how i told them to fill out comment cards. When the comment cards came in--about 1/2 dozen of them--there was hysteria with my manager's manager for 'mismanaging' the program and having a 'problem yoga teacher who stirs up trouble' and whatever else. I don't know. But anyway, people went into hysterics. Finally, i said "it's simply meant to open a dialogue. it's not a personal criticism or judgement. It's instructive and constructive if we want to meet the needs of our diverse community. Can we focus on this rather than pointing around for blame?"
that didn't go over well, i can assure you.
So, what is that deal with management? If mihoga were to call the management and tell them, would they go into hysterics? would they fire this yoga teacher without checking on the situation? I mean, i think that my employer would just fire me, never even asking me about it. that's the sort of hysterics that they go into.
why do people do that? i mean, why does management work that way? (sometimes, anyway). |
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| In my (personal) opinion:
There is NO need for a Yoga Teacher to touch the Yoga Students, except when there is emergency such as falling from headstand, etc. All other instruction can be given without touching. And, above all Yoga Exercise is something one has to do with their own bodies, not with other's bodies OR get done by others for their own bodies (such as in massage).
If I were in your place: a) I shall immediately get up from the pose, and request the teacher NOT to touch me. b) If she is still touching, that will be called abuse.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Of course, it the teacher is my guru, then I shall let him break my bones with happy face.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| 1. i think it would be hard to get out of the pose if the teacher is on top of you.
2. my students and i like hands-on assists because they guide our bodies into the correct alignment, so that we can feel that alignment and then the next time we do the pose, we know what we're trying to do, how to get there, by what it feels like--because the teacher helped us get there in the first place. while i agree that it isn't absolutely necessary, it is helpful. |
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| Mish, I think we're in the minority as non-touchy-feely people! Believe me, I respect teachers who give hands-on alignment cues and I've had some excellent adjustments that I found very helpful. But by and large, I do NOT like being touched! Unfortunately, I would never raise my hand at the beginning of class and say "Excuse me, please don't give me any adjustments or touch me in any way as it sorta gives me the willies." I'd be too embarrassed to call that attention to myself (especially because I have no real reason to feel that way). I figure, it's my thing I have to work through, so if a teacher wants to adjust me, I have to get through my uncomfortableness with that.
Adjustments I have liked have involved the least touching possible. Guiding someone into alignment with just an index finger is an art! At the Seane Corn workshop, she pressed down the ball of my foot with her big toe and didn't even crowd my personal space, I was impressed. My favorite teacher of all time finally got me to figure out Down Dog by putting his finger under the base of my index finger and telling me to press down. I'll be eternally grateful for that! But, I'll also be eternally grateful to the teacher that did not adjust me at all when I had a really lousy practice in her class. The truth is, I loved her class but was babying a large abdominal incision, so I didn't participate as much as I would have liked. She was kind enough to express concern after class and I told her what was going on. If she had adjusted me without warning, it could have gotten ugly.
So, as much as I respect those who do it right, I generally avoid giving a lot of adjustments when I'm teaching. Part of it, I'm sure, is a fear that I'll do it wrong and either hurt someone or just give them the willies! With beginners, I'll quietly ask how a pose feels for them (especially if they're doing something that looks a little wonky, or if they don't look comfortable). That's when they'll usually say "I shattered my hip 10 yrs ago so this position hurts" or something along those lines. That gives me the chance to offer a modification. Or if they just say "I'm fine" then I'll offer an idea that will get them deeper into the pose if their body is okay with that.
Sorry for rambling, none of this probably helps. I was just relieved to see that I'm not the only one who doesn't like being touched! In this field, it's odd to run across anybody else who feels that way. Yogis are a touchy, feely, huggy lot. Mish - thanks for making me feel less like a freak!  |
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| *Fifi* - 2005-11-21 2:57 PM
At a spa setting I would prefer not being touched, especially if the instructor is young b/c to me that signifies inexperience.
I'm sorry, but that is ageism. Just because someone is young, does not mean they just started practicing yoga or that they are not qualified to teach yoga. I am in my mid twenties but I look like I am still a teenager and I encounter this attitude often in my teaching (not just yoga teaching). It makes it that much harder to teach when my students view me as inexperienced or not good enough because of their assumptions about my age. True, I do not have as much practical experience as someone who has been teaching for 30 years - but everyone has to start somewhere. Luckily, most of my students see past my age and are able to benefit from their practice. |
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| jeans--
i think the assertion of your first paragraph is ridiculous. Sure, it's 'your issue' but it may also be 'your boundary' and it's perfectly appropriate to have that. Also, i wouldn't ask you to raise your hand and say anything--just raise your hand. no one else knows because *everyone's* eyes are closed. So, you're not bringing any attention to yourself. I would know, and i could respect that boundary.
realize also that it is important for people to speak up. the class is not about what the teacher wants. The class is about what you, or i, as the student needs. We're there for a reason, to have our needs met. Sometimes, we may not know what those needs are--we may not be fully attuned to them--but it's also appropriate to speak to those needs as necessary. If one of those needs is to not be touched, or to make mention of an abdominal injury/incision/scar, or to make mention of an ache or pain, then that's completely appropriate.
i think the issue is embarassment and not speaking up for oneself. that's the thing that needs to be explored. You should never be embarassed to put forth your needs. You should speak up for yourself and have your needs met. This is appropriate behavoir. This is how people avoid abuse and avoid becoming abusers! we have to communicate! |
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| jeansyoga - 2005-11-21 3:25 PMMish, I think we're in the minority as non-touchy-feely people! Believe me, I respect teachers who give hands-on alignment cues and I've had some excellent adjustments that I found very helpful. But by and large, I do NOT like being touched!
<--- Not a big fan of being touched.
Yoga class helps me get over some of these sorts of issues. In my case I think a lot of it is a matter of habit, and not any sort of emotional trauma. I'd personally like to be a bit more open, and touchy-feely, so yoga gives me a chance to explore some of that.
If I had a teacher proceed with an adjustment after I had told her I didn't want it, I'd be upset. It's even worse that you're still having issues with it. OTOH, Zoebird's correct, if you do speak with management that has connotations of a Serious Problem. Generally because they expect people to ignore problems, or speak directly with the person involved. However, it sounds like you did that, and she persisted. The other question is whether it's worth kicking up a big fuss if you're not going to see her again.
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| Thanks for communicating by calling my statement "ridiculous." Ever wonder why people are embarrassed to share the weird things that are wrong with them? Because they don't want people to think they are ridiculous.
Sorry I shared. |
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| jeans:
no, you completely misread what i meant or what i said. I think that the idea that you believe that your need to not be touched is somehow irrational, wrong, or should be ignored is ridiculous. I think it's entirely appropriate for you to feel that you shouldn't be touched. And, i think it's entirely appropriate for you to share that you shouldn't be touched.
i think it's entirely inappropriate to subject yourself to touch if you don't want to be touched. This is not a healthy boundary. It is entirely inappropriate to subject yourself to the authority of another "if the teacher wants to adjust me, so be it" when you know that you don't like to be touched.
I think that going against your better judgement regarding touch is not a good idea. To say that you should, or that you think you should, is ridiculous to me.
I do not think it is ridiculous that you are embarassed or that you don't like to be touched. These things are understandable. I understand embarassment comes from a deep sense of shame, and that you're deeply ashamed of being touched and you're deeply ashamed of the fact that you're deeply ashamed about being touched.
If you were in my classroom, i would prefer that you tell me that you don't want to be touched so that i could better serve you as a teacher and better meet your personal needs--physically and emotionally. I understand your embarassment, but at the same time, how can either of us work together in a healthy way until we really communicate? |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Hey Green, my main reason for concern with this instructor is that usually there are a lot of women who come to this spa and take the class as a novelty of the spa experience (maybe they do yoga 10 times a year, of course there are some you can tell that practice regularly).
My body is in tip top shape. I know and respect my limitations. I'd hate to think that this could happen to someone else. I don't want her to get in trouble but she should be made aware and so should the establishment. This is a very expensive spa, very well known too.
I go every year and I can tell you I will never take her class again. Not because it was bad, but because she directly hurt my lower back. 
Mish
Hey Jean........I'm with ya sista!!!!!!!!
Maybe I should change my signature to: HEY, DON"T TOUCH ME!!!! 
Edited by mishoga 2005-11-21 4:17 PM
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| i remember in this one workshop that i took that we had to have name tags on our mats (so that the teacher could learn our names). and the girl next to me had her name with "no touching" underneath it.
so it was "Hello, my name is Sarah No Touching." I think it's a good "native" name.  |
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| mishoga - 2005-11-21 4:13 PMI'd hate to think that this could happen to someone else. I don't want her to get in trouble but she should be made aware and so should the establishment. Not because it was bad, but because she directly hurt my lower back.
Then write a note, or call them. Explain things in a very calm and polite tone, but be very firm.
so it was "Hello, my name is Sarah No Touching." I think it's a good "native" name. 
This also sounds like a very good solution. Our pilates teacher likes to give massages during savasana after her yogalates class. I'm really not a big fan of this during savasana, or any other disturbances, so the last time she came around, I just signaled her with my hands, and no issues.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Oh  I have a girlfriend who gives foot massages to all who want at the end of her yoga class. I don't like that!!!!!!!!! Imagine the germs. I keep thinking of that Lamisol commercial with the animated foot fungi
Mish
Edited by mishoga 2005-11-21 4:52 PM
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| I noticed that the title of this thread is Very Upset with a Teacher, not Lind of Miffed at a Teacher. There's a big difference.
Mishoga also mentioned the yoga at this spa tends towards novelty than serious. Big difference there, too. On what grounds does an inexperienced yoga instructor have to make serious adjustments on students she does not know?
Zoe, I don't know why many managers turn into bean counters. All I can say is that when a patient has a less than positive experience at our clinic, and I would like to know because my malpractice insurance is on the line, we have never fired anyone. Nor do we belittle in front of people or even in private. Quitely, new "policies" are instilled and all employees are on the same page. I just view the "negative" experiences as learning opportunities. None of us is perfect (even me, if you can believe it!  )
Well, what you call ageism I call my intuition. That's life.
And as for yoga teachers that have risen up the ranks like Seane Corn, well, she's earned "touching rights", especially if she's touching you with her big toe.
It's all pretty relative. Off to yoga! |
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| This has really been a cool discussion. Controversy included.
Like a good Pisces I'm of two opinions about the touching issue.
I've been to workshops where the only people the instructor (of national renown) would adjust were the young pretty girls. This was true even though some women in their 40's were deeper in the poses.
I've known others who go to national workshops and come back infuriated with the inappropriate touches from a different male instructor.
No, I won't mention names.
On the other hand I've had some excellent experiences with adjustments.
The first came when the instructor would ask us to do low cobra then lift the hands off of the mat. For months I couldn't get my legs down. Finally the instructor held my ankles down gently and allowed me to get the right feel. I've never had trouble keeping my legs on the ground since.
Last September I went to Open Spaces in Lakeside Arizona during a vacation to the White Mountains. For the first time I was gently guided by a gentle touch to make a modifiication several times. They really worked well. It surprized me because I usually don't like adjustments unless the instructor knows me. If you're ever in Nortern Arizona I'd highly recommend this studio.
Mishy, I've noticed that deep adjustments are given only when the instructor thinks the student is advanced enough to progress further.
I totally agree on Zoe's not letting management know about the problems. My wife works for the government and just the fact that someone made a complaint is grounds for a reprimand, even through the complaint is later found to be groundless. A direct letter is best. maybe with a request that if she decides to respond that she wait a while and think about if for a while.
Edited by MrD 2005-11-21 8:24 PM
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| This is back to the theme of getting hurt in a Yoga class. I only had that happen once and I learned how to deal with a teacher that does not have the necessary ‘wisdom’ to teach a Yoga class. In my class, I was visiting a studio that I was unfamiliar with. The teacher was inexperienced which was obvious from her dialog; “Okay, now do this, now do that” as if she was simply following a script from her teacher training. She had us go into triangle pose from some ‘crazy’ angle and like an idiot I followed right along with her. As I moved into the ‘classic’ pose, my brain said, “Oh no, what was that?” I seemed to have injured a hamstring and it took me about 6 weeks to get back to normal. Because I work with so many teachers, I can usually spot the newbies now and pretty much do my own thing with them or hold back with anything that I am unsure of. And I wasn’t upset with the teacher, I was upset with myself for going blindly into that pose without being conscious of my body until my body said, “I’m hurt”.
The other thing that I am very alert to is how teachers explain “working your edge”. Some say, Yoga is not pain, so don’t go too far into that edge, or work that edge until you hit that place of “unwanted pain” and then there are the ones that seem to always want you to stay in that edge and “breath’ into the discomfort. Those are the ones that I am wary of, along with the ones that are clueless about that whole edge thing and encourage you, willy-nilly, to go into any pose despite being unaware of your level of expertise and physical condition.
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| MrD - 2005-11-21 8:16 PMLike a good Pisces I'm of two opinions about the touching issue.
That's a Pisces trait? And here I thought I was just being open minded all this time. Learn something new all the time.
<---- Pisces
I've been to workshops where the only people the instructor (of national renown) would adjust were the young pretty girls.
I've had similar issues with some instructors of either sex. I'm not entirely sure what to do about it, since I know when I see somebody I'm interested in, it's hard to take my eyes off of them, or stop thinking about them. I'm also pretty sure that there are teachers who are not giving adjustments just to the pretty, young things, who have similar ideas, though they don't act on them. Thus I find it hard to condemn the people who do act on them.
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Very upset with a teacher
