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| TOURIST,
I like what you said a couple of posts back that we do or participate in things that feel good but aren't necessarily good for us.
I figure, if yoga is powerful enough to feel so good then it must be powerful enough to have some contraindications at times.
I know that the Chinese (here we go again, you're thinking  ) think it's "bad" to go outside with wet hair b/c you'll end up with a stiff neck. They think it's really bad for a woman to have sex while she's having her period. They think it's awful to drink iced drinks. We know we're not going to drop dead from doing these things but over time, oh, say 20 years, the little stuff can accumulate into a big, bad thing (maybe).
I've decided to pay attention to what the elders say.
P.S. My old and wise Chinese doctor counsels against wearing tampons - ever. He says it makes the blood stagnate and creates toxicity. By the way, we recently discussed the topic of bad skin on another thread and I wrote that I went to an acupuncturist to alleviate imy really bad case of acne. This is when and why he told me to stop wearing tampons b/c it was encouraging toxins to back-up in my system and my skin was trying to purge the impurities. Plus, my diet was disgusting at the time. sorry, long post and off topic. 3 sun sals as restitution |
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| i'm mortified by the concept of 'because i say so' or 'because so-and-so says so' practices and behavoiral modifications. to me, it smacks of fascism, and if the authority is untrustworthy (and many are--though not intentionally), then you're going to have a problem eventually.
so, i'm for honoring tradition, experimenting with it, and coming to one's own conclusion. this doesn't toss out tradition or the elders--or discount their wisdom, knowledge, and contributions--but it also doesn't stifle individual development and creativity either--the development of my own wisdom, knowledge, and contributions. it's how yoga (or any wisdom tradition really) is a living tradition. if we stick too close to the rules--whatever they are--then eventually it won't function for us and the thing will pass away. But if the rules can be applied in a number of contexts, in different ways, or avoided when the facts simply do not add up--or even amended--then it will grow, learn from itself, and continue on because of the new insights and traditions of those who follow--based on the wisdom and traditions of those who came before.
needs to be both. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| No, the Iyengars are not the be all and end all of yoga, however (and I say this feeling that most highly advanced yoga teachers would agree with me) comparing pretty much anyone with BKS Iyengar is a bit like comparing your high school science teacher with Stephen Hawking. A Perfect being? No. Is there debate in scientific circles about his theories being 100% right? For sure. But still acknowledged as pretty much the world authority on his subject. And if you learned yoga in the past 20 years, you have been influenced by his teaching.
There is so much more going on in a pose than the physics, as we know, and I believe the idea of retrograde flow is really not the biggest issue. The effects on the energetic body and the koshas are things I don't fully understand yet and I know one of Geeta's big things is the quiet in the abdomen, which is very hard to achieve in inversions, if we are doing them well and maybe a bit more difficult if we are not doing them well. And remember, their attitude has changed over the years as they have seen more students and had more experience. In Light on Yoga, it says "do not practice asana if menstruating" and now we have all sorts of specialised practices to do during menstruation. And even the Iyengars only started being strict about this in the 80's. This is very new territory and we are all part of a very big experiment. It is like the old (and maybe not so old) medical studies where they just studied men and figured it was the same for women. Yoga has been a male discipline and women have really only been involved for a micro-second compared to how long men have been practicing. We are on the cutting edge here so maybe we need one big group who does not invert and the control group who does to see what happens.
Fifi - I sometimes think about making stuff like that up and seeing if people will follow it: Never eat cheese at breakfast. My uncle's brother's step sister ate cheese at breakfast for 30 years and in the end, that's what killed her   |
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| Zoebird,
You have the right to feel mortified.
I never thought of my sweet, old Chinese doctor (think Yoda) as fascist. He helped me and his advice worked. Conversely, doing something over and over again that doesn't work is insane.
I'm not trying to pick on you, Zoebird. In fact, your input on these threads is always interesting and well thought out but I feel the word "fascist" is incendary. Feeling mortified is pretty heavy, too, in context of what we're discussing.
My Chinese doctor, while compassionate, probably doesn't really care if I take his advice or not.
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| often, the elder isnt' fascist. but a follower or student can be.
beond political associations, fascism refers to a desire to be lead. if an individual holds a desire to be lead, without the responsibility of self examination (experimentation), then this is fascism. typically, it's not the leader or elder that is fascist, but the student if s/he doesn't experiment.
i think that both you and tourist have espoused an unquestioning, unwaivering approach to the advice of 'the elders' regardless of who those elders are or why that advice exists. i think that what the elders say may be true, but it may also not be true. it may be true for some, but not for others. It may be true in part, but also false in part. And only my own experimentation makes it possible to determine what is correct. but without this responsibility, without this undertaking, the student is being lead, playing fascist--whether or not that's the teacher's intent. in fact, i doubt it is the teacher's intent at all.
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| zoebird - 2006-02-27 2:04 PM
i think that what the elders say may be true, but it may also not be true. it may be true for some, but not for others. It may be true in part, but also false in part. And only my own experimentation makes it possible to determine what is correct. but without this responsibility, without this undertaking, the student is being lead, playing fascist--whether or not that's the teacher's intent. in fact, i doubt it is the teacher's intent at all.
Thanks zoebird... you said exactly what I was thinking/trying to say in my previous posts. |
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| I do not for a minute think you believe in the crap you just wrote. It's not like you to be crazy, Zoebird. I'm not even offended because I don't think you wrote it. You must have been possessed for those 5 minutes.
I'm just passing on advice from an esteemed professional.
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| fifi:
i have no problem with the advice that you are passing along in and of itself. i present this same information to my own students. but, i do have a problem with the idea that because something comes from an authority of some sort, it should be followed without question or without one's own experimentation and thought on the matter.
it is one thing to do something over and over that doesn't work. obviously, as you stated before, you're not advocating that. But what is it to avoid something, never knowing whether or not it's appropriate to avoid it, simply because an authority figure said that it could be, or is traditionally, problematic?
my grandmother is a smart, vibrant, educated, interesting 'elder.' she advises that i never lift heavy objects (such as luggage) because my uterus will fall out and i won't be able to have babies. Well, a lot of things say that this isn't true--but a lot of grandmother's believe it. Should i listen to my elder? or should i do research and experience on my own?
even a chinese doctor or a yoga teacher can be passing on an 'old wives tale' and sometimes an old wives tale is absolutely correct. And sometimes it isn't. But avoidance per se won't teach me this--only experimenting on my own (or thinking on my own) will. |
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| Is it at all possible that Geeta and her daughters have a hereditary propensity to have "issues" with the uterus? Maybe they have inverted uteruses, or exceptionally heavy periods, etc. So, if she read that inversions were not right for women, then she and several people she knew had problems, wouldn't she become passionate about it-trying to help? Just a thought. I have no medical background.
Edited by Kym 2006-02-27 4:00 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Maybe I'm opening myself for critisism here but I have a problem with looking up to anyone and following their words as if that is the holy grail.
Always had a problem with teachers, bosses, husband  , etc..... I believe we are all created equal. I respect certain individuals more than others. I look up to certain people, but to put them on a pedestal, no way!!!! It's the rebel in me.
I don't like any person, swami, guru, or mentor to tell me their law (anyone for that matter). I like to take it all in and then decide what works realistically in my life and in society (and the people I deal with).
I like to think of people as penny givers and penny takers. There are people that take pennies out of your pocket ( energy vacuums) and then there are some who enrich your life by contributing (adding pennies)
Mish |
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| Well,
Nobody is recommending you all to stick your finger in a blender to see what that feels like.
Kym had an initial question regarding periods and inversions, not whether to join a cult.
No one is forcing anyone to listen to 5,000 years of wisdom. Although I get bummed out when my patients stubbornly neglect my benign advice, as a healthcare professional, it is financially better for me when people insist on learning the hard way. It's their choice to come in for 8 treatments instead of 4.
(Sometimes I wonder if the AMA doesn't have a bunch of stock in McDonald's and Burger King in order to supply lifelong patients)
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I didn't mean to be extreme in my view. If anything, this is definitely one of my vices. I wish I could break it.
But as I stated earlier, I think following your inner voice is logical.
Mishy |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Hmmmm - I see that my haste in writing here (since I read posts from the top down, I am often scrambling by the time I get here!) has led to a little lack of clarity, although I did try to clear that a bit in the last post by saying I do question authority figures and even ignore them from time to time. And I don't anyone want to think I am a slavish follower of anything - being somewhat of what my friends and I used to call an "anti-clockwise" sort Come to think of it, many of us here would describe ourselves as non-mainstream - but I digress.
Here's the deal. Most of us who practiced in the 60's and 70's (yes, new folk, I am that old...) assumed the ancient advice was patriarchal crap (written by what was known in the parlance of the day as "male chauvanist pigs"...) and completely ignored it. This includes Iyengar students, who were not given the strong sanctions until the early 80's, I believe. But by that time the clarity and truth of what was being taught was shown time and again, over a long period of time, to be true. I do believe that some of it may be based on Geeta's and her sister's experiences, however, I believe her sisters and nieces have all been healthy in this respect. I do not believe that someone with her background and intelligence would try to influence thousands of students simply because she herself had problems. That seems a tad selfish, at best.
I questioned this as well. I liked being upside down to relieve cramps. I have friends whose only days of the month they feel energetic enough to do hard workings and jumpings are during their periods. And so what if it is Ayurvedic teaching? I don't follow Ayurveda so perhaps it is not so important for me? The answers I got from my teachers were very much what I have given you here. They have seen and worked with the Iyengars over many years. One teacher has gone every few years since 1979 (now annually) and worked very closely with the whole family. They tell us that, when you see how the system works over time, how they are right time after time after time, literally curing people of serious conditions, you take a few things on faith even if you don't fully understand them. Reading Light on Life has reminded me again of how much farther these people are along the path than we are - how the knowledge they are giving is so much more than how to align downward dog so your wrists don't hurt. If someone with that much knowledge is telling me this is good for me, I will try to work with it the best I can. |
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| A wise man (might have been Bill Gates) once said, "only take the advice of those who are doing better than you." I think those are fine words to live by. For instance, I worked with a guy who had a son who was a total loser--lazy, drugs, lying, etc. And he used to try to give me advice on raising my daughter--"No thanks pal"! Just extrapolate that into any other aspect of life. Speaking of living examples, I stumbled across Eric Shiffman's Web page today--now there's a guy of whom I've heard some good things about yoga-wise--then I see this way overweight dude and I think--"woo HOO, don't care what he's got to say." |
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| *Fifi*
(Sometimes I wonder if the AMA doesn't have a bunch of stock in McDonald's and Burger King in order to supply lifelong patients)
I kid you not...my husband has stock in Philip Morris.  Normally I don't care where he puts his money, but even I opened my mouth over that purchase.
Edited by Kabu 2006-02-27 7:44 PM
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| >JB - she advises that i never lift heavy objects (such as luggage) because my uterus will fall out and i won't be able to have babies.
That just made me flash back to my childhood. When I was very young, my mom use to make us clamp a curst of bread between our teeth when ever she sawed a button on a piece of clothing we were wearing. When I asked why she made us do that, she said her mother always told them do it. I assumed it was a custom from the ‘old country’. Can’t remember what was supposed to happen if we didn’t do it, but it seemed pretty dire.
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| I feel a little like I have a split personality going here because I agree with all of you of some points.
I can completely see Tourist's point about the Iyengars. They have proven themselves. And I admire her faith in their advice.
There are, however, some reasons why the Iyengars or other teachers could be absolutely correct under certain circumstances and not correct in others. Because so much yoga information comes to use through tradition and without the advantage of context it is hard to always know when advice is best for the individual.
For example: A friend of mine was really into Ayurveda. He always drank hot water and milk, because Ayurveda said to boil the water and milk before drinking it. Now I can think of very good reasons to always boil water before drinking it in India 1,000 years ago or even 100 years ago. But in today's world I'm not sure that advice still applies.
This is not a black and white kind of discussion.
As to Bruce's contention that you should only listen to the person doing better than you, I disagree. Pain and failure can be a pretty good teacher, perhaps a better teacher than success at times.
Your friend may know exactly what "not" to do in raising a child.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | Bruce - 2006-02-27 6:57 PM
Speaking of living examples, I stumbled across Eric Shiffman's Web page today--now there's a guy of whom I've heard some good things about yoga-wise--then I see this way overweight dude and I think--"woo HOO, don't care what he's got to say."
He's actually not THAT overweight- his face is way chunkier than his body (in pictures he always looks like he has about 10 chins). He's a BIG guy too- not just chunky but big. You should give him another chance, Bruce, because he's got some great things to say. I did a TT with him and he's got a great practice- very graceful and flexible for someone so big. |
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| Ah Julie, I have a hard enough time with all things yogic as it is--it's a constant struggle for me as my ole "leave it to Beaver" childhood and military background permeates my soul. And I'm shallow too but since you vouch for ole Eric, I'll revisit and try to take the high road. However, as I'm taching my first yoga class today at a local university, I'm going on a starvation diet--don't want to give the kids the impression I'm Eric. |
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| A womans body is on a continuous monthly cycle - it's not butterflies and roses till we start our period. Our horomones are constantly changing throughout the entire month... thus our bodies are continually cleansing themselves - not only when we have our periods, so really then we should never do inversions.
... that is going to the extreme - obviously... but trying to proove a point... perhaps not well, but I haven't finished my morning coffee yet ;)
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sometimes its just a bad photo. i don't always do so well in front of a camera either. Here's a nice pic of erich looking strong & flexible.
www.movingintostillness.com/graphics%20photoshop%20files/2005_monteagle_lotus/image17.html
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| Thanks Natasha. I'm sure he's a good man and a hellofa yogi but geeze, he looks like Arlo Gutherie crashed into W.C. Fields and the result was poor Erich. I don't think I could be in his workshop and not laugh. |
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awwww! he's not so funny looking! now, me. I'm funny looking  people are always surprised to meet a cat who can smile so pretty.
as far as the previous discussion goes, I thinkit's interesting to think about the fact that most "wisdom" comes out of the context of social mores. I wonder what the larger indian culture that the Iyengars are imbedded in has to say about women and their menstruation. Do women of Geeta's generation and place teach each other to be less active in general when they have their periods, or is it an asana only thing?
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| >Bruce – he looks like Arlo
I was going to get all serious on you and tell you not to judge yogies by their bodies and go into how BKS simply looks like an 85 year old Indian chap on the surface of it, but when I looked at Eric, I kind of cracked up also, he does look strangely a lot like Arlo.
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| Sirensong,
You do have a nice smile. 
I don't think it's simply Indian culture because it's also Chinese culture/wisdom. Perhaps it's ancient culture or more specifically, ancient Asian culture & wisdom. This arguement is just like the vegetarian arguement; everyone has their opinions and they're sticking to them.
As far as Chinese medicinal wisdom goes, a person's energy is not limitless (sorry, Louise Hay) and they've figured out ways to conserve one's energy and encourage the flow of healthy energy.
It's true, peristalsis (movement of food down the tubes) will still continue when you're upside-down but it just adds stress to the body to eat and hang upside-down.
I think it's the little stresses in life that add up to future aggravation. I figure I haven't lived very healthy the first 20 years of my life so I'm going to do as much as I can to try to stave off future health problems.
Not that anyone asked but one of the reasons Chinese medicine is so great (IMHO) is that it didn't forget women. The royal acupuncturists had to be good in gynecology b/c the Emperors had tons of wives and concubines.
Chinese medicine (and probably Ayervedic medicine, judging from Neel's posts) encourages people to rest, which shouldn't be confused with the idea that you're weak. |
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what do you say about...
