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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| sirensong2 - 2006-02-28 9:34 AM
I wonder what the larger indian culture that the Iyengars are imbedded in has to say about women and their menstruation. Do women of Geeta's generation and place teach each other to be less active in general when they have their periods, or is it an asana only thing?
That is one of the things I have asked about and I think the answer is pretty much what it would be here: that is a great idea in theory but in practice, not a snowball's chance in h#ll it's gonna actually happen!  In India they seem to have embraced modernity and still keep many more of the old traditions than we have. Hence, the woman's position is even more stressful and active in many ways. |
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Location: Upstate NY | Bruce - 2006-02-27 6:57 PM
A wise man (might have been Bill Gates) once said, "only take the advice of those who are doing better than you." I think those are fine words to live by. For instance, I worked with a guy who had a son who was a total loser--lazy, drugs, lying, etc. And he used to try to give me advice on raising my daughter--"No thanks pal"! Just extrapolate that into any other aspect of life. Speaking of living examples, I stumbled across Eric Shiffman's Web page today--now there's a guy of whom I've heard some good things about yoga-wise--then I see this way overweight dude and I think--"woo HOO, don't care what he's got to say."
Thats what I love about yoga, is that it is for everyone 
Bought the book and cherish it. Another great addition to the library. Guy isn't obese at all in the book.................. you can get it cheap on amazon, it would be worth the money Bruce.
Om Shanti,
Ravi |
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| having gotten through the end of page two until the end of page four, i think that this is about valuing subjective elements to make logical inferences. it's based on certain assumptions, and many of us have valued things differently. And then, depending upon how we value these elements, determined how to behave.
fifi and tourist have valued chinese medicine and iyengar et al opinions on the matter higher than western medical information; a few have taken on western medical information higher than chinese medicine and iyengar et al opinions; and then a couple of us have talked about valuing our own experience over either of these two (eastern or western) ideologies.
One of the things that i find rather disturbing is the concept that someone is 'better' than i am. i think that my high school science teacher (who was a brilliant physicist) was as good as steven hawkings. she wasn't as famous--but she was a brilliant scientist and a brilliant person (she did do research; she prefered to teach in high school--the high school that she attended). i think that many of my yoga teachers--some iyengar trained and some not--are as brilliant as the iyengars, but not as famous. They have their experiments, their ideas and opinions as well. I tend to value them 'in light of' the tradition (which comes through iyengar or whatever).
one of the points that i think some might be missing is the fact that the iyengars themselves are continuing with experiments. they, themselves, are experimenting. my teacher, dharma mittra, gave this great little talk about becoming your guru. he said that when he worked with his guru (as an assistant, doing all sorts of daily tasks for him), he watched everything that the guru did. If the guru smiled during meditation, he did--and so on. the guru questioned him about it--and said "good, good" because the only way to become a guru is to be like a guru.
i take this in similar directions. Not only do i follow dharma's advice on the little things, but also on the big things. If the guru is experimenting--then i too should be experimenting. This is how i will learn--and i'm following the guru. The guru learns--builds on his/her guru's information--through steady practice and experimentation.
Also, if the advice is in the 'not-doing' how does one experiment with it? Do the iyengars ever let someone do inversions and then see what the situation is from that? in order to experiment with it, you have to do it during a certain time, so that you can understand hwo it works and how it doesn't work.
And the issue of the whole cycle is also important. the fertile phase, the luteal phase, the menstrual phase, the estres phase--each of these has different bodily and hormonal elements in play. i find that my food choices throughout the month can greatly affect the outcome of a given cycle--as can movement and many other factors. I experiment with my entire chart (as ya'll know i'm into fertility awareness method of charting my cycle). I experiment with food, with rest, with asana, with other forms of exercise or movement.
I do this because i was taught to do this. I value my own experience above all other experience, but i do value the advice, input, and other elements that inform the experiment and experience. I also recognize that my experience cannot necessarily be extrapolated out to apply to everyone--which is why i present the other information. I present what i know: this is the tradition; this is the western/medical; this is my own experiences--ultimately decide for yourself what is right.
i notice that the iyengars are doing this--so why can't i?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Some good points, ZB. Yes, we are all encouraged to explore and experience for ourselves the effects of our practice. This holds true in any science or art. Students are enoucraged to take the master's work and go beyond and/or prove what has been found to be true in the past.
Also, if the advice is in the 'not-doing' how does one experiment with it? Do the iyengars ever let someone do inversions and then see what the situation is from that? in order to experiment with it, you have to do it during a certain time, so that you can understand hwo it works and how it doesn't work.
Of course, they had all those years when there was not an emphasis on non-inverting - basically through the 70's and mid 80's. As I said, this generation of yogis will be a good test case, if anyone studies it in the next 10 - 20 years.
It does come down tot personal choice and there are many reasons why anyone would chose one or the other. Personally, I have had enough problems with menstrual issues and don't want any more, and would not want to feel I had intentionally done something that might make it worse. And since I am at that "certain age" things are not so predictable anymore and I can't be certain that anything I try has had a direct causal effect or if it is Mother Nature giving me a little adjustment, so my experimental studies would not be too reliable  |
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| Bruce:
I'll second the recommendation of Erich Schiffman's book. His approach is very much a combination of asana and meditation. He has a very clear way of discussing difficult concepts (as an example, he likens the relationship/one-ness of atman and brahman as that of a wave in the ocean - an individualized expression of the whole). If you're interested in meditation as an extension of your asana practice, Schiffman provides some nice direction.
Plus, watching Schiffman makes me feel better about my own chubbiness as opposed to my skinny shala-mates!
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | tourist - 2006-02-25 9:38 PM
Sorry I don't have time to do a full reply to this but I must say that Path to Holistic Health refers ONLY to doing inversions before and especially right after menstruation. I realise this is not exactly clear in the book and there are some places where the editing is plain wrong. Somewhere in that book it says to use a yoga strap 2 feet long  So there are errors.
This is also how I've been taught and my experience with this. In 1989 I had endometriosis. Since doing the Bikram/Hot Yoga practice, it has helped tremendously, in so many areas. BUT, only during the off times do I see any benefit from my Asana practice, not during. I think everyone should listen to their bodies. I also feel that it is the responsibility of the teacher to educate their students and/or make an allowance for persons like myself - that isn't fair to the student. It also isn't fair since this is mentioned in so many of my Yoga manuals and from instructions that I've received. This is where the line gets crossed of mis-information. I'm glad I have the option of setting out rather than forcing myself to do a practice that I am not comfortable with. |
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| Cyndi,
The owner of the Bikram studio that I like in my town had endo, too, which was resolved after praciticing Bikram. She was an immediate convert and decided to go through the teacher training and open her own Bikram studio.
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| what is it about bikram that does this? do you think it's the sequence, the heat, the combination of sequencing and other factors?
i'm just curious as to what your ideas about it were/are. |
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| Probably just the yoga. One of the local yoginis had exzcema until she started doing it 6 days a week. Now she's got the nicest complextion you've ever seen. |
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| well, i don't know what 'just the yoga' means.
there are lots of people with endo who practice yoga (various styles), and yet i've never seen anyone say that they feel completely 'cured' from the process--except these two claims regarding bikram. so, i'm wondering what might be particular about bikram that makes this happen.
and if so, then i'll suggest bikram to those clients and friends who have endo and would like to be relieved of it.  |
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| zoebird - 2006-03-02 12:15 PM
well, i don't know what 'just the yoga' means.
Sorry, it's a bit vague, and I didn't fully process your original post. I'm thinking that it's not the heat, since the local studio isn't a hot one. OTOH, I was thinking that endo was a completely different disease. So please ignore the previous post I'm just ranting at random now.
Anyway, that pretty much leaves the asanas, and perhaps the sequence. |
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| I think its the heat and and the scrunching down in Bikram. I PM'd Cyndi this morning about her thoughts and I haven't checked my inbox but I know she responded (I didn't want to hijack the thread). Anyway, I find that with Bikram, lots of the poses squeeze the body. It's like an abdominal massage. I find my elbows and knees and even my abdominal muscles are pressing on parts of my torso, sometimes pressing hard (knees and elbows). I guess that would make it more like acupressure. Plus, the buckets of sweat one produces during a 90 minute Bikram certainly changes our chemistry set.
Would love to write more but I gotta run! |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I like this definition of Dead: No Movement, heehee,
All internal organs need to be massaged and/or moved... I definitely get all my internal organs massaged in a day's worth of Bikram/Hot Yoga.
OT - I really do not understand why you guys say the term "Hijacking the thread", that really doesn't make sense to me...because all of what we discuss here is related to the subject thread, it interwines eventually, really it does, so therefore, we should discuss...at least that is how I see it..am I wrong?? hmm, maybe even this inquiry could be considered hi-jacking?? |
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| Cyndi - 2006-03-03 9:06 AM
OT - I really do not understand why you guys say the term "Hijacking the thread", that really doesn't make sense to me...because all of what we discuss here is related to the subject thread, it interwines eventually, really it does, so therefore, we should discuss...at least that is how I see it..am I wrong?? hmm, maybe even this inquiry could be considered hi-jacking??
Well, I think about it like a good conversation. I have some "odd" thought patterns so I have a tendency to inject things that are outside the flow of the conversation. They make sense to me, but other people might find them disruptive.
Hijacking a thread can be similar. While the thread will change over time, it should be a slow change, not a change like changing the subject. If the subject needs to be changed, then it's probably time to start a new thread.
To some degree your inquiry is a potential hijack because it's on a different subject, and has the potential to take the thread completely away from the original subject. Whether this is a good thing or not is another question. Sometimes it makes sense to start another thread, sometimes to post something in the original thread. As you pointed out converstations change over time, and often diverge naturally from the original subject. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I like natural divergences...not controlled ones....it makes a better and more interesting conversation, IMO. Okay, back to the subject at hand,
OTOH, I think men usually have more of a problem with this than women do. Whenever 2 or more women are gathered, the topics seem to just bounce around. Women can multi task conversations well, men seem to get lost and disfunctional in this process for some reason, must be that venus and mars stuff, huh??
Edited by Cyndi 2006-03-03 10:48 AM
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| so, to be clear, the idea that both of you are putting forth is that during the bikram practice, there is a great deal of abdominal massage-like or acupressure-like movements that help 'realign' the space (perhaps physically, perhaps energeticly), that then relieves endo.
i'm definately going to try this out. i'll take more than a few bikram classes soon and also do some experimentation at home. I don't have endo, but i should feel the same abdominal massage/acupressure stuff as anyone else, and then perhaps i can apply that in my teaching for those students who have endo.
thanks for your thoughts. if you have more ideas, i'd love to hear them. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Zoebird,
You don't have to go to a Bikram class to get the "Bikram" benefit, just do the 26 postures, in order, TWICE each time and you'll be there. Don't worry about the heat factor, I do use a heater to 85 - 90 degrees, but I really don't think that matters, it's the sequence that I think is more important. Heat for me is because I barely wear any clothes and need that to stay warm. |
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| cyndi:
thanks for the input. i know, though, that the alignment is different than the krishnamacharya lineage, so i'll get some instruction on it--i think that's the main reason for taking a few classes (ten class punch cards tend to be affordable). I want to make sure i'm getting the alignment right--i assume that makes a difference too!
i'll be sure to practice both with and without heat.
now, just for clarity, should i do the practice twice--one after the other--before going into savasana? is that what you meant? do the 26, then do them again, and that's the end of practice? |
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Location: Upstate NY | repeat the asana twice then do the next twice and so on...... |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Zoebird,
Okay, go to a Bikram class (I thought you said you took Bikram once before??) learn the order of sequences, although, it shouldn't be that hard to do, go to this web site below, the asana's are listed in order. Do each asana twice before going to the next...don't do the 26 postures and then 26 again, No. Each asana is performed twice as you move along.
http://www.bikram-yoga-noosa-australia.com/Postures/Postureindex.htm |
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| cyndi:
i have taken bikram classes before--it was a couple of years ago though. i know the sequence (i keep a copy of it on-hand), but i believe that it comes from a different school of alignment--which i think would be an important element. there are three distinctive elements that i think would be important here: sequence, alignment, and environmental conditions. the first one is easy, but the second two can be difficult to consider without some instruction. i might just go and pick the brains of a teacher near-by. that might be enough to get the alignment, and i can always test out the heat-scenario later.
but, there are other forms of heated yoga, where women dont' talk about endo decreasing or stopping, so maybe i can 'discount' the heat situation altogether. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Back to the menstural practices - as I was practicing yesterday I was reading Gem for Women and thinking about the power and strength of women and their cycles. I wonder if we haven't been victims of previous generations attitudes ranging from absolute hysteria (literally) to the "modern" notion of "women can do anything any time and to h#ll with taking care of ourselves in a different way during menstruation, pregnancy, new motherhood etc." I think the post war generation of women was so keen to prove that things "could" be done that they pushed the idea on us that it "should" be done. Yes, you can perform feats of strength and endurance while menstruating, but given the choice, is it the best thing for you to do? I mean, you can save your family of four plus all the cats and photos from a burning building in the middle of the night, too. But what toll does it take on your body and psyche? Would you be able to do that task in mid day with a clear head and awake body and do it better, with less residual effects? Obviously I exaggerate for effect, but do you get my drift here?
I think we need to consider this and ponder the notion that perhaps specialised practices might be looked at as a way of building and storing feminine power rather than a way of recouping energy that is being taken from us. We have the power to create life - omnipotent in a way - and this cycle we have chosen not to create life. We are clearing the decks and preparing to create life again constantly. Imagine a sci-fi story like that (we can get our creative types to write this - another money maker?). |
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| i think that striving to look at the situation from very different perspectives is important, but it still doesn't answer the question of inversions and whether or not they're physically or energeticly 'ok' for menstrual practices at a practical level.
i agree that practice during menstruation--well practice at any time--should take great heed and care of the body's intuitive/intuitable needs. I've noticed that my practice changes throughout my cycle, and throughout larger cycles as well. I learned that the moon has an 18.5 year cycle (from highest rise to lowest rise on the horizon), and i'd like to look at that process as well--assuming i have the time to do so; it takes a lot of research understanding this 18.5 yr cycle.
anyway, i agree that there is probably an overemphasis on proving our ability, largely because it is this very aspect of womanhood that has been used for centuries to determine or describe or give evidence of women's lack of physical strength, power, ability, intellect, spiritual ability, spiritual purity, emotional stability, and a myriad of other factors. So of course, there's a strong reactionary aspect to this--a strong sense of not wanting to give something up because someone said so (man or woman) with the potential of giving into a sense of cultural weakness which can then be drawn into other non-associated attributes assigned to women in general and individually.
i often wonder if the woman's wound in this is not unlike the slavery wound of so many slaves throughout the world. to be seen as less intellegent, less spiritual, less strong, less capable, etc, simply because of the color of skin, location of village, or in the case of women--sex and the socially constructed gender.
in any case, the concept for The Red Tent (book) comes to mind. The original purpose of the Red Tent was for women to go away from the community for a few days to rest, renew, and be amoung women while menstruating. This was the seat of women's lore, women's inner sanctum, and women's wisdom. it was a time away, a retreat. It was re-cast later as a place for 'unclean' and 'untouchable' women, the original intent was rest, renewal, and honoring women.
for myself, i have a great love of the fertrility cycle. part of the reason why i'm so frustrated about the broad use of hormonal birth control is that it competely suspends this vibrant cycle. For most women on hormonal birth control, they're not actually having a 'period' but rather 'breakthrough bleeding.' it actually has a completely different biological effect than menstruation--which is why so many PMS symptoms are relieved, there is no menstruation, so no PMS! IN any case, this likely also plays into whether or not women are capable of something during their periods--assuming their periods really are periods! But it also effects so many other elements of the cycle, which also effects the hormonal situation of th ebody, the mental/emotional aspects of a woman, the sexuality of women (hormonal birth control has been shown to decrease sex drives in women, perhaps permenantly even after the use of these has been stopped), and perhaps even the spiritual connection to these cycles--and the broader life cycles--of women.
i think that element, too, would have bearing on this discussion of what we can and can't do on our periods, what we might and should, and perhaps why. |
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| Cyndi, I think a natural flow of converstation is good too. But, when the main idea of the thread completely changes, then some people might miss the secondary converstation b/c they don't open the thread. Or, worse, the person missing it might have had something useful to add, but never opened the thread b/c the original topic did not apply to them. |
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Location: Upstate NY | I enjoy the way the threads evolve from subject to subject.......... as a regular I jump to all the threads for this reason........... thats life, things change..... let go and surrender... |
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what do you say about...
