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| Some of you may be interested in what they are doing in the Moksha Hot Yoga Teacher Training. I almost applied to it this year for many reasons, but one in particular stuck out. Within the training, they have teachers from other disciplines come in to teach the occasional class. My friend is taking the training and says that they have done an Ashtanga class, a Yin Yoga class, and a Sivananda class. He says that they emphasize that there is no one way to practice and that we are all doing a variety of expressions of the same honorable tradition. I think that Bikram, the Ashtangis and the Iyengarites could all learn a lesson from this. For this reason and many more, I have submitted my application to their next training. I hope this information helps with this discussion. |
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Expert Yogi
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| davis - 2005-06-26 7:19 AM
I think that Bikram, the Ashtangis and the Iyengarites could all learn a lesson from this.
Hi davis - speaking only for the Iyengar segment of your comment, Iyengar teachers are bound by ethical standards that do not allow us to comment negatively on any other style of yoga. BKS Iyengar says that ALL yoga is yoga. "We don't demarcate yoga. Yoga is one. I am a practitioner of yoga" is one of his quotes. OTOH, the yogis believe it is best to follow one path to it's completion rather than spend one's life sampling here and there without gaining any depth. You can drill a bunch of shallow wells and end up with a lot of holes and no water. To reach the water, one must persevere and move beyond the first few layers of soil and rock to get to the goal. Obviously, there is searching and sampling in the beginning but eventually, settling in and moving purposefully deeper into practice and learning is required to gain depth and richness in yoga practice. Personally, I was lucky enough to be placed in exactly the right place and time - and my path presented itself right in front of my face. I'm pretty sure the gods thought I wasn't clever enough to find it on my own so they plopped me right in the midst of a large, active Iyengar community 
I think experiencing different styles is a great idea for teachers, especially those who have only practiced one style. Bikram students in particular, would benefit from this since they have a pretty small number of poses in their repertoire. (This is not bashing - simple fact. We have 31 poses on our basic, Level I syllabus) Bruce's training works like the one you mentioned only in reverse - he was sent out to find other styles himself and bring those ideas back into his TT. |
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| I actually like Bikram yoga series. It's the only yoga however that seems to invite injury. I think bikram has a good thing but the only thing he seems to want to do with it is make money off of it. He's the one who said when being comparied to McDonalds, that he didn't see anything wrong with that. I know McDonalds isn't in business to spread health but to make money. I've be doing yoga for 10 years and tried all the styles. I see benefits and problems with many of them. Bikram Yoga is the only one however, that seems to have an attitude problem and seems to promote pushing until it hurts. I'm sorry but I don't think Bikram is sincere as a yoga Guru but an entrepreneur who has come here to make it rich.
I did get a bad injury from it and it wouldn't have happened if I wasn't pushing hard like my teacher suggested. Now when I go to class I just want to skip the posture that I injured doing "Bikram Yoga" and a get a bunch of crap from them.
I just see Bikram for what he is and if I confronted him he might just agree with me. So why are the people on this website mad about what I'm saying when he basically admitted it in the 60 minutes interview. I still do Bikram now and then myself. I don't pray to Bikram when I'm doing it however and I will make my adjustments without the "teachers/followers" approval when necessary. It just seems like he's asking for a law suite. After all this America isn't it, the land of McDonalds. |
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| I agree, Tourist, it's great for teachers to try out different styles! If for no other reason, so you will know what students are talking about when they come to your class and say "I have been practicing for 2 years, how is this class different?"
I did want to mention that Bikram is NOT the only style of yoga that can injure you! A bad Iyengar teacher might push your hip backward into a "perfect" trikonasana and cause injury. A friend of mine got a bad hip/knee injury from a well-meaning Jivamukti teacher who STOOD ON HER KNEE with the hopes of deepening her padmasana experience. Anyone (teacher or student) who is honoring the pose rather than the body is inviting injury.
Not trying to defend Bikram, I don't practice that style and I know very little about the man, so I'm neither for nor against. But I do know there are plenty of ways (not involving Bikram) to injure oneself during yoga. I stupidly tried a new bakasana variation while home alone a few weeks ago and fell directly on the top of my head. I heard a snap and was terrified I had popped a disc in my neck or fractured a bone. In that case I was both teacher and student, and very stupid in both roles. Shame on me! I'm very fortunate to have full use of all my limbs after pulling that stunt.
One of my yoga friends has a saying that I love, I'm sure she won't mind if I quote her here. She says "I have never gotten a YOGA injury in my life, however I have lots of EGO injuries!" Referring of course to pushing her body into a pose it was not ready for. I think we all have a couple of those!  |
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| jeansyoga - 2005-06-26 1:56 PM
A bad Iyengar teacher might push your hip backward into a "perfect" trikonasana and cause injury.
Sad, but true. Usually Iyengar students don't get injured until they start teacher training and start pushing themselves too hard. Among students who are injured, many will say "I knew I shouldn't have done that" or "I knew I shouldn't have let the teacher do that" but did it anyway.
a well-meaning Jivamukti teacher who STOOD ON HER KNEE with the hopes of deepening her padmasana experience.    |
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Location: A Blue State | jeansyoga - 2005-06-26 4:56 PM
I did want to mention that Bikram is NOT the only style of yoga that can injure you! A bad Iyengar teacher might push your hip backward into a "perfect" trikonasana and cause injury. A friend of mine got a bad hip/knee injury from a well-meaning Jivamukti teacher who STOOD ON HER KNEE with the hopes of deepening her padmasana experience. Anyone (teacher or student) who is honoring the pose rather than the body is inviting injury.
I guess I would add to this that I have never had an Iyengar teacher forcibly adjust me.
That's in contrast to what I have occasionally encountered in Ashtanga and Bikram classes.
There are very few teachers who I will trust to put their hands on me with more than the
lightest contact. I've had a number of well meaning people hurt me with bad adjustments
or "try it this way" suggestions.
Regarding the Padmasana adjustment you mentioned, it reminds me of a time when
someone stood on my thighs in Baddha Konasana...for me, it worked really well,
but for my body it was just a little extra pressure on the floor. Had my knees been
way up high, I suppose that things might have gone differently.
One of my yoga friends has a saying that I love, I'm sure she won't mind if I quote her here. She says "I have never gotten a YOGA injury in my life, however I have lots of EGO injuries!" Referring of course to pushing her body into a pose it was not ready for. I think we all have a couple of those!
I certainly agree that lots of injuries derive from ego, but I think that ego is a part of the
whole person who is doing yoga so that separating it out is a little deceptive. We all
push too much from time to time, and it's not realistic to imagine a person who won't, from
time to time, go too far. In fact, I was at a workshop with a very well known teacher who was
nursing a shoulder injury. S/he said "I pushed a bit too far"...this is a person with decades of
practice behind them. |
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Expert Yogi
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| I have had a few times when I *thought* I was going to be injured from an adjustment but let go into the trust of my teachers and was fine, though perhaps a bit sore the next day. My biggest yoga injury was a torn hamstring which I got in a teacher training workshop. We were focusing on the deepening of the front hip crease in trikonasana and I neglected the back leg to my own peril. The horrible sound is still clear in my mind although it was 4 years ago!
I have had my upper thighs stood upon in baddhakonasana and it was great. My friend with very tight hips almost screamed when her turn came and when our poor teacher JUMPED down and asked if she was ok, my friend said (very sheepishly) "you know, it didn't hurt. I only thought it would!" Standing and pressing on the knees is a BIG no-no where I come from. |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: New York | designaire - 2005-06-26 4:03 PM
I actually like Bikram yoga series. It's the only yoga however that seems to invite injury. I think bikram has a good thing but the only thing he seems to want to do with it is make money off of it. He's the one who said when being comparied to McDonalds, that he didn't see anything wrong with that. I know McDonalds isn't in business to spread health but to make money. I've be doing yoga for 10 years and tried all the styles. I see benefits and problems with many of them. Bikram Yoga is the only one however, that seems to have an attitude problem and seems to promote pushing until it hurts. I'm sorry but I don't think Bikram is sincere as a yoga Guru but an entrepreneur who has come here to make it rich.
I did get a bad injury from it and it wouldn't have happened if I wasn't pushing hard like my teacher suggested. Now when I go to class I just want to skip the posture that I injured doing "Bikram Yoga" and a get a bunch of crap from them.
I just see Bikram for what he is and if I confronted him he might just agree with me. So why are the people on this website mad about what I'm saying when he basically admitted it in the 60 minutes interview. I still do Bikram now and then myself. I don't pray to Bikram when I'm doing it however and I will make my adjustments without the "teachers/followers" approval when necessary. It just seems like he's asking for a law suite. After all this America isn't it, the land of McDonalds.
I am a recovering Bikramite, but I feel the need to jump in here. I really think that it's unfair to claim that Bikram yoga "invites" injury. I realize that there are overzealous teachers out there, but at some point the responsibility for our practice becomes our own. I injured my hamstring from running (to the point where I stopped running) and while it has healed, I still feel the twinge every now and then. But I don't go around proclaiming that running is bad or that running hurt me.
I used to teach Bikram, and I shied away from the parts of the dialogue that stated that pain is OK. But, like Cyndi has said in other threads, I don't think it's meant to be taken quite so literally. I really don't think Bikram's intent is to have people screaming in pain while they practice; he feels (and this is my interpretation) that most people don't push themselves hard enough and can do more, and wants to create an environment that is challenging rather than accomodating. But it is really up to us as individuals to decide when enough is enough.
If you have so many issues with Bikram yoga, stop doing it! As you stated, there are so many different styles of yoga. |
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| Yogalicious says, "However, the only board I visit is this one because it is so funny how firmly attached many Bikramites are to the idea that their way is the only way."
IMO, that is a very unfair statement. I don't think I have EVER seen a post from someone who practices Bikram who says their idea is the "only way". Also, I think if you go back through the Bikram board, you'll find there are more people coming here to condemn the yoga than otherwise. I don't think Bikram is perfect (and BTW, he himself asks that no one call him guru) -- but I will defend the yoga when fairness is an issue. There's nothing wrong with offering up what you've learned from your experiences with Bikram, good or bad. However, it does seem like people get so hypercritical on this board. It's downright weird. Exp. when people who have never even practiced Bikram start to give their two cents.
I also think it's interesting that you don't see Bikram students/teachers going to the Iyengar or Ashtanga boards & attacking the yoga.
Of course, the last time I expressed my opinion about all this negativity, there was a rash of childish comments (i.e. "Oh watch out, so & so -- you're getting negative!"). I'll expect nothing less from the participants of the board this time.
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| Gwen makes some good comments. I was a long time Bikram pratitioner and found it to be an overall great physical and mental improver for me. In the last year I've tried every other yoga I possibly could and found merits to them all. Having just completed Hatha teacher training, this subject came up in many discussions and the one thing that nearly universally yoga teachers are concerned about regarding the Bikram practice is the way Bikram trains his teachers. While the 90 day school touches on the fundamentals of safety and anatomy, it mostly is intese practice of the Bikram series and momorization iof the dialog--little of tuning the asanas for injuries, body condition, age, etc. If an individual wants to be under the guidance of a Bikram teacher relaizing what the training is, that's his/her business. However, if facts that could be related to a potential person's health and welfare are know by others, I think that information needs to be disseminated. |
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| Teachers who embarass you? Forcing adjustments? Berate you for taking a rest? I guess I am terribly lucky: I take class at a Bikram-trained-teachers-but-non-franchised-studio and all the instructors are gentle and helpful. They inject a great deal of themselves into their respective classes and each is slightly different, although the postures remain the same. Some are more verbal, some less so, some more intense, and some mellower. Some offer variations just to add something a little new and different, and all of them make allowances for injuries, limitations and plain ol' exhaustedness while stressing the benefits of pushing yourself a little more each class for your own sake. I can't imagine any of them teaching class in the style of some over-zealous Marine Sgt.--rattling on about welcoming pain and suffering and so forth. Funny, I love the postures, but would probably be miserable at a Bikram studio. Looking back on it, we did have a teacher from "The City" (an oft-used term for the instructors at franchised studios in Manhattan) who shocked us all with his loud, sportscaster style coaching. He was a nice enough guy, but he didn't stay long--not a good mutual fit, I suppose.
It does not surprise me that so many people cringe when I say I take hot yoga--maybe they've had rough teachers. Again, I guess I'm lucky.
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| Having just completed Hatha teacher training, this subject came up in many discussions and the one thing that nearly universally yoga teachers are concerned about regarding the Bikram practice is the way Bikram trains his teachers. While the 90 day school touches on the fundamentals of safety and anatomy, it mostly is intese practice of the Bikram series and momorization iof the dialog--little of tuning the asanas for injuries, body condition, age, etc.
It should be pointed out that all graduates are told to attach themselves to an established and experienced teacher for further mentoring as soon as they graduate.
I know people who've been certified in a weekend or two at some other yoga 'school' and sent forth to do whatever they want. Many of them know that it's a ridiculous way to be certified but also feel that their students epect them to hold some kind of certification to be legitiimate. It's easy to make generalizations but the fact is the Bikram training program is fairly comprehensive and at least tries to impress upon it's students that they must continue learning after graduation.
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| ebenjen - 2005-06-29 6:02 PM
Having just completed Hatha teacher training, this subject came up in many discussions and the one thing that nearly universally yoga teachers are concerned about regarding the Bikram practice is the way Bikram trains his teachers. While the 90 day school touches on the fundamentals of safety and anatomy, it mostly is intese practice of the Bikram series and momorization iof the dialog--little of tuning the asanas for injuries, body condition, age, etc.
It should be pointed out that all graduates are told to attach themselves to an established and experienced teacher for further mentoring as soon as they graduate.
I know people who've been certified in a weekend or two at some other yoga 'school' and sent forth to do whatever they want. Many of them know that it's a ridiculous way to be certified but also feel that their students epect them to hold some kind of certification to be legitiimate. It's easy to make generalizations but the fact is the Bikram training program is fairly comprehensive and at least tries to impress upon it's students that they must continue learning after graduation.
unfortunately, the teachers that they may be "attaching to" are just as attached to the "rote" class and "my way or the hi-way" teachings. it's really just a way to keep control and a make sure the cash cow keeps producing.
the best thing a new teacher can do is study ANYTHING they can get their hands on about those postures that are NOT from that lineage. learn to teach SAFE yoga. the better teachers do. you just have to keep looking until you find one AND try not to get hurt in the meantime.
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| ebenjen - 2005-06-29 4:02 PM
It's easy to make generalizations but the fact is the Bikram training program is fairly comprehensive and at least tries to impress upon it's students that they must continue learning after graduation.
What! "Bikram training program is fairly comprehensive" . The more you know the more you realize what you don't know. And attaching yourself to another senoir teacher who went through the training but just been promoting it more does not help much. I went through the TT then through Rolfing school. The difference was amazing. Bikram's TT is a joke. In my opinion, unethical. To put people under the direction of teachers that don't know jack.
ebenjen: You need to study a whole lot more outside Bikram's world and see just how much you don't know. To make such a statement shows me just how much you don't know.
Rolfing school also state that you will need to continue learning. But you now very well what you will need to study for 20 years! Bikram teachers are not given direction on what they will need to study. Just making the statement " You will need to continue learning after graduation." is a meaningless statement in itself.
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| I'll concede that my training didn't prepare me at all to rolf someone. Otherwise, the surety of your assumptions has me waffling between annoyance and amusement.
Where are my fangs when I need them...?
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| Rolfing is apart of the somatic arts. Its knowledge aplies to any arena involving the body. In Richard Freeman's teacher training it is apart of their reading. I beleive half of his teachers are rolfers. This is my path. I could be any other training you want that brings more awareness of relationships in the body. If someone only had Bikram's TT they would be dangerously ignorant. Which ebenjen might be. His post have shown this to me so far. With a host of others. The direction of healing goes, Denial, recognize, acknowledge, acceptance, choice. This formum helps the denial, recognize phase. The acknowledge, acceptance and choice phases are up to the individual. |
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Expert Yogi
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| I can completely see how rolfing training would be a fabulous adjunct to yoga TT. I constantly defer to my students who have masage or other body work training for anatomy advice. My Hellerworker (offshoot of Rolfing) is also a yoga teacher and although her practical yoga TT is not as great as mine through Iyengar (she is finished TT but has barely done any teaching as opposed to my couple of years of mentored teaching) her knowledge of the body pretty much assures that she will teach the poses safely. Plus she knows what stresses I am putting my body through when I teach and practice and can offer poses as additional therapy for me between sessions. Which is not on point but still cool.  |
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| Do teachers really stand on ones thighs in Baddhakonasana ? That for me is one of m my hardest poses and I would actually freak out if a teacher stood on me. My hips plague me and I supect I would be in a horrible mess if that happened.
I am fine with the sutle adjustments and actually am ever so greatful for them but to stand on me OH MY NO ! be still my heart
On a less paranoid note I enjoyed my Bikram class 'cept for the heat- felt my body give more quickly but will stick with my present teacher....feels disloyal to leave  |
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| the answer to this is 'yes and no.' a teacher will not stand on an average person's thighs during baddhakonasana. in fact, it's a rather rare student who can handle that sort of adjustment.
i am a student who can handle this. two of my teachers, who taught me the adjustment, can also handle (and enjoy) this particular adjustment. I love this adjustment too--recieving moreso than giving. It is difficult for the average, particularly new, yogin to even recieve this.
most teachers won't go near a student with this sort of adjustment until they have reached a certain place in the practice--knees on or near the floor. Mine are on the floor, and often i prop myself up on a pillow as my teacher presses my thighs down even farther (or stands on me to do so). As you can see, i'm very flexible.
thus far, i have never used this adjustment for baddhakonasana in my classes. I have used my feet for other adjustments (using thai yoga massage technique), but it's not weight bearing. With adjustments, it takes a lot of practice and a good awareness of where your student is before you can go deep. I'll often do a very gentle adjustment, and then ask if they would like me to go deeper. then, i'll go a bit deeper, hold, and ask again. I find that some people i can eventually take into some pretty dynamic adjustments, but only so far as they can handle or as they want to go. I only do this process with my more experienced students--4 or more years with me.
(ps. i'm not a bikram teacher, btw.) |
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| I think Innerline has some very valid points. Many yoga teachers do not get the valuable training in the body needed to teach. But this not not just a Bikram issue. MANY TT's don't provide quality education in the area. While I do happen to agree that Bikram's TT is an extreme case of it, I don't think it totally fair to single them as a community out.
On another note, having continuing education in rolfing in your background is great, but it is only a tool; one of many. It is not any better then anyone else's way. It is YOUR way. Not everyone will agree with you. What really matters is whether or not you are a good teacher with the knowlegde you may have.
I know people who don't know squat when it come to the body, but as teachers for what the do they are wonderful. On the other hand I know MANY people with the type of training you have and they are HORRIBLE teachers (not to say that you fall into this category). Good teaching is good teaching and it is not always the one who know it all that can teach that knowledge well.
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well that was a nice way of expressing it Brian...however, Innerline is way OUTA-line. When a person come across that hateful across the board towards someone else, I don't care what kind of knowledge you have or what your background is..makes me really question what kind of person they are. There are better ways of handling your differences without bashing someone else. Frankly, Innerline, your posts are way too technical and IMO totally a waste of time and not necessary..for me. Eric on the other hand is a simple minded person and his posts have actually made more sense and has compassion and understanding to go with it...something you don't have Innnerline. Frankly, reading your last post or all your posts insult my intelligence as a simple minded person who likes to do Yoga without the BS!
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| I would LOVE to stay out of this but....as usual, have to put in my two bits worth...
Cyndi - I would love it if you could figure out how to tell someone they came across as being nasty to someone without actually being nasty to them yourself. I know you qualified with "for me" but "waste of time" is an emotionally loaded expression and completely cancels out the "for me."
OTOH, I had to LOL when I read you supporting eric as "simple minded." While I think I understand you meant that you like things expressed in simple terms, I do believe that even in the Deep South, "simple minded" means "not terribly bright." Am I correct?  And then I got an extra LOL when you described yourself in the same terms. A small slip of the keyboard, I hope. |
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| innerline - 2005-06-30 3:36 PM
Rolfing is apart of the somatic arts. Its knowledge aplies to any arena involving the body. In Richard Freeman's teacher training it is apart of their reading. I beleive half of his teachers are rolfers. This is my path. I could be any other training you want that brings more awareness of relationships in the body. If someone only had Bikram's TT they would be dangerously ignorant. Which ebenjen might be. His post have shown this to me so far. With a host of others. The direction of healing goes, Denial, recognize, acknowledge, acceptance, choice. This formum helps the denial, recognize phase. The acknowledge, acceptance and choice phases are up to the individual.
Your constant attacks on the Bikram method and Bikram teachers in general as incompetent and/or dangerous are not only unsubstantiated and ridiculously generalized, they don't jibe with the literally tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people who regularly practice Bikram Yoga with, not only no detrimental but countless positive effects. It seems as though your intention is to scare people away from what is an amazingly accessible and transformative practice for a large number of people. I think one of the things that attracts a lot of people to the Bikram method is the simplicity and humility of it.
Your one-note posts, which are mostly self-aggrandizing "oh what a wise man am I" bloviations, are repetitive, tedious and offer nothing of substance. We get it already. You don't like Bikram Yoga, you don't like Bikram Choudhury, and you think of Bikram instructors as poorly trained, incompetent, Bikram imitators doing more harm than good. What I don't get is what you think about the many, many people whose lives have been enhanced or transformed by the practice. Are they teeming hordes of dupes who're living under the illusion of good health and well-being? Are their achievements and breakthroughs fantasies? Are you aware that slinging insults at the entirety of Bikram Yoga practitioners is condescending and dismissive of the experiences of many thousands of people?
Ultimately, though, as much as I want to respond to your now turning personal attacks with a calm and reasoned, "f*ck you and f*ck your path," I ought to thank you because I can't tell you how many people come to my studio after having experienced a guru-wannabe like yourself pontificating and elevating themselves above the rest of us ordinary people who aren't looking for the penultimate OM-Shakti-Shanti yogi worship experience but instead a very simple and basic yoga system with an emphasis on physical fitness and general well-being. Bikram Yoga may not be suitable for everyone but that doesn't negate it's value for those who've chosen it.
You know, you might have responded to my statement that the Bikram teacher training is 'comprehensive' from a position of confident opposition by simply asking something like, "What about it makes you think it's comprehensive?" or "Have you done any kind of comparison with other yoga training programs that makes you feel that way," or any number of other reasoned responses that might have elicited discourse, that might have caused me to reconsider my opinion from another perspective, that might have actually been a positive contribution to a polite and civil discussion but that's not your style, is it? You're not hanging out in a Bikram forum to engage in reasoned discussions, are you? No, I think you're here because you think picking on Bikram yoga is easy. I think you're here because ragging on Bikram (yoga, Choudhury, teachers) makes you feel superior. I think you're here because you're feelings of self worth aren't high enough without trying to step on someone else.
Edited by ebenjen 2005-07-02 5:18 PM
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Expert Yogi
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| "bloviation" - wow Extra points for using words people have to look up. Clearly you are not "simple minded." |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: A Blue State | My Cats' Mom - 2005-06-27 11:40 AM
Of course, the last time I expressed my opinion about all this negativity, there was a rash of childish comments (i.e. "Oh watch out, so & so -- you're getting negative!" ). I'll expect nothing less from the participants of the board this time.
I thought that this would be a good time for me to add my two cents worth, by pointing out
that a number of the above posts really are just a little bit negative. I think that Innerline
and Ebenjen need to go out for a soda and get to know each other...maybe take in the
sunset while sitting on a bench in the park, talking about their favorite foods...I bet that
they'd find that they each like some of the same asanas.
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bikram bad teachers.
