|
|
| I just love your advice Bay Guy! Maybe its because I am a fellow beer snob. You are the liquid devotee, no? Maybe that soda should be a good stout?
In the end, we are all trying to do something good for ourselves by following whatever yoga path clicks with us, yes?
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | tourist - 2005-07-02 4:51 PM
Cyndi - I would love it if you could figure out how to tell someone they came across as being nasty to someone without actually being nasty to them yourself. I know you qualified with "for me" but "waste of time" is an emotionally loaded expression and completely cancels out the "for me."
OTOH, I had to LOL when I read you supporting eric as "simple minded." While I think I understand you meant that you like things expressed in simple terms, I do believe that even in the Deep South, "simple minded" means "not terribly bright." Am I correct?  And then I got an extra LOL when you described yourself in the same terms. A small slip of the keyboard, I hope. 
Tourist, you remind me of my older sister. always nit picking, looking for mistakes, and at the same time being so envious of people like me and my free spirit...wishing she had the balls to be more outspoken in her life without being "politically correct" and just basically being free. I don't really care about what you think of what I wrote, I'm not attached to it. I'm certainly not feeling guilty about it. Another words, what is this?? Are you the yoga police?? If you are, I RUN like h&*l from police, 
As for simple mindedness...In all my Yoga and Vedanta training, that is one of the main objectives and goals in the yoga practice, SIMPLIFY YOUR MIND, SIMPLIFY YOUR LIFE...SIMPLICITY PERIOD. That would mean that every simple minded Yogi, including some of the great Master's themselves would not be very bright now would they?? If you want to view simplicity as being not very bright, that is very ignorant..but, go for it..believe what you wish. Me, I choose simplicity any day.
Besides, you ain't lived until you've been in the south around simple minded folk who are some of the most kind and compassionate human beings I know. Not like some of the aggressive Northern types who are so freaked out because they live in dirty cities with pollution and noise...they forgot about nature and don't know anything about natural things...basically loosing their minds...all in the name of what did you call it?? Being *bright*??
Oh well, maybe there's a little bit of PMS or Pre-Menopause going on??? |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| Fab advice, Bay Guy. I wish we could all do that 
Cyndi - maybe I am the simple minded one. I just had to comment that it made me laugh, intended or not. I like to laugh. I laugh at typos too, not because I think people are stupid for making them (there would be a special place in h*ll for me if I did that, since I am such a lousy typist myself) but because they are sometimes really funny! We once hired someone at my workplace because in the interview she said "I love to laugh" when asked her to describe herself. I hoped you could share the very small, very unoffensive joke on yourself.
As for simplicity, I absolutely agree. "'Tis a gift to be simple..." as the old Shaker song goes. One of the great gifts of yoga is to clarify and edit the mind mess. Even Iyengar yoga, which some find complicated, is very simple in the main principles. The multitude of technical points work for me to bring each pose to its most basic, clearest, most concise expression.
Being an outspoken, free spirit myself, I have no reason whatsoever to envy you. |
|
| |
|
| Hey Cyndi - lighten up will ya? |
|
| |
|
| ebenjen got his teeth,
I love Bikram yoga. I love Bikram Choudhury spirit. I went through the TT. Open a yoga studio in Boulder,CO which I sold. I still teach it, and love teaching it. I do not teach from the same space I write on this forum. I individually correct people if they are in some of the many pitfalls on the journey. I make it simple, not technical. The technical part is important for me to know as a teacher, not the students unless they need it to feel confident, very few. There is an appropreitness when teaching, right timing and right amount of info. The practice is emphasised, not me. In practice , in the moment it is simple. The more I know the more simple I can make it. Listening, feeling, being.
If energy is being taken away from being and feeling because the body is struggling to deal with an imbalance, such as hyper-extended knees, push through it, kill pain with pain, or just having to listen to a talkative teacher, etc then the space for deeper awareness is not there.
I love this one ebenjen, "You're not hanging out in a Bikram forum to engage in reasoned discussions, are you? No". Very funny for me. In the light of reason ebenjen is exactly were I think you need more work. There are many contradictions in Bikram yoga that bring up questions. I have asked them of my self and found answers. I respond to you ebejen the way I do because I see you as unreasoned, emotionally conclusive, choices based on the need to keep it simple ( don't look into the darkness of complexity). Its a good need, but you might have to look at the complexity to get it even simpler.
Ebenjen: What do you see as comprehensive about the TT? Just to see what awareness can be created on the forum.
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| innerline - I think you ask a good question (I am going to stay right out of the personal stuff!) about "comprehensive." Not just in Bikram TTs but others as well. We have had this come up on other threads - how can one person say they had "great, fully-comprehensive" training while someone else thought it was shallow or totally incomplete?
What is "comprehensive" yoga teacher training - in your opinion? Anybody? |
|
| |
|
| that is such a tough question, tourist! you know i struggle with it too.
in my area, there are lots of different teacher trainings going on right now. Over here, there's a yoga with a heavy sports psychology bent. Over there, there's a yoga with very little asana and a whole lotta traditional philosophy. Over there, there's a whole lotta 'do this sequence only' and do volunteer work. Over there, there's a year-long series of weekend workshops that add up to the right amount of YA hours, but there's not a whole lot of coherence or community support. Over there, there's a program that involves three primary areas of study: body work of your choice; asana our way; and health/wellbeing/spirituality of your choice. Over there, there's a program that's 1/2 anusara and 1/2 power yoga. ETC.
Ok, so within 30 minutes of driving from my humble little home, there's about 90 million teacher trainings.
I have problems with all of them. Yoga and sports psychology: doesn't go far enough; yoga is about samadhi. Classical yoga: great for philosophy; teachers know squat about asana and can't apply it in even the most basic instances (teacher, i have a knee problem, what do i do? oh, well, do what feels good--and then their injury gets worse and no one can figure out why. . .they thought yoga was supposed to help. . .). Sequence and volunteer: sequence is ok, if the teacher actually understands it (not always the case, sometimes the case); volunteer work is always a good idea, unless the teacher is uninsured and doesn't have CPR. Weekend Warriors: the individual weekends are wonderful as far as depth in their subject matter; unfortunately, after the workshop, new teachers dont' know how to apply that information to teaching so the classes suffer something fierce. Three areas of study: first area of study gets little or no practical application unless the individual chooses a modality that has a local practitioner; asana is decent, but IMO too much time spent on cross pollinating it with pilates; third modality is also without support unless the individual finds someone else doing it. 5-50: it's a great idea, really, to do a 50-50 in this because you get the great alignment stuff of anusara and the fun stuff of vinyasa; on the down side, teachers graduate without knowing much about either, except for one or two vinyasa sequences.
Another big problem that i have is that many of these schools accept teacher trainees who have little or no experience with yoga themselves. It's not enough, IMO, that you're fit, coordinated, or athletic. Yoga works on so many levels, and to be able to teach to those levels, yu have to experience them. Then, you get trained on how to teach and how to teach on those multiple levels.
I don't think that any one training can be comprehensive. I think i've managed to figure that out. I think it is important to have community connections--other teachers at your level (of practice and teaching experience), newer teachers (newbies have tons to offer), and teachers who are more experienced (just beyond and well beyond). This helps inform teaching and practice. I think this is what is necessary *after* teacher training.
And, continuing education is important, but it's not necessarily important that it continue in a specific way. It could continue in various aspects of yoga, which will impact the teaching of the asana and pranayama. It needn't just continue with asana or pranayama or even other forms of body work. It could be that the person needs to study mantra and being that to class. Or they need to study the vedas and bring that to class. Or they need to devote themselves to karma yoga and bring that to their teaching.
At a certain point, too, teacher trainings become 'unnecessary.' not entirely, of course, but for me to take another 200 hr beginner yoga teacher training seems just out-n-out silly. Sure, i get benefit from it, but i already done did 4 apprenticeships and i'm starting my 5th. i do these apprenticeships not to learn more asana (though i get that too), but to learn other techniques of teaching and other aspects of yoga practice from different traditions. I'm also at the point where i can be autodidactic--relying on my own study, my own practice, and my own contemplation to formulate things that are authentic, valuable, etc. I know that 5 years ago, that wasn't possible (even though i'd done 3 apprenticeships by that time). I needed the reassurance of a mentor, a teacher. right now, i don't have that, so i have to rely on myself if i want to offer my best to my students.
am i rambling? |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| You must type like a demon, my friend  All those years in school, no doubt...
As someone who comes from a yoga community both deep and wide, in a training program that has so far taken me 4 years (weekends, week-longs, regular classes, mentoring and peer teaching and evaluation) and covered a lot of ground (asana, pranayama, philosophy, anatomy, physiology, ethics...) I realise I am truly blessed. Not everyone is plopped in the midst of a group of dedicated yogis! I wonder how one does find a comprehensive yoga education in other circumstances?
OK - I realise I have added another question here...sorry  |
|
| |
|
| well, i am wondering if there is such thing as 'comprehensive' considering the breadth and depth of yoga. I mean, it's gots 8 limbs, and in each limb, it's gots lots of stuff to learn. So, i mean, holy krishna, how can one be 'comprehensive' in a teacher training program?
most teacher training programs will focus on our one area--hatha yoga. within this, the focus on those postures which they value most--which may be 26 or it may be 80 or whatever. those that are more focused in other areas--such as gnana/jnana or karma or bhakti are going to focus their trainings that way. What happens is that for the first group, they may get the basics of asanas, pranayama, teaching methodology and what not, but they don't get a whole lot of the other good stuff. With the second group, they get a lot of the other good stuff, but they hardly know enough about asana to teach it.
In all cases, you get good teachers out of these programs and you get duds. It's surprising to me what the reputation of my last apprenticeship really is. I tell people that i'm trained there, and some people i have to convince to give me an audition because "so and so (who was in teacher training with me) was just horrible in the following 15 ways" and of course, they believe this reflects the program, which it must in part at least, but it may also point to the person's dedication to teaching (and education) as well as talent.
In many ways, i'm lucky. i've been practicing a long time. I've been exposed to a number of different teachers with different backgrounds and training. Even though i've moved around a lot, i've been able to connect with really amazing people over time. Of course, i've also been able to connect with a lot of really weird (in a negative sense) people over time too. I've learned from both.
I also notice that i'm different than a lot of teachers whom i know. Probably like you, i tend to like things that go into things in detail and depth. this is why i apprentice. I like to spend the time in the community. Often, apprenticing is like holding a second job for me, it's like a second home. It often requires 10 to 15 hours of work a week. I love this sort of process and relationship as teacher training.
a lot of teachers-to-be and teachers in my area are not into this. They want something that's 'twice a week and every other weekend' up to 200 hours. Some want even less than this--just weekends. Some want even less than this--just two weeks. some want even less than this--one weekend. Some want even less than this--self guided, self graded, home study. Some want to just star teaching right away because they've studied from books. Some want to just start teaching because they're aerobics instructors and they have a video and they can teach it because they're active.
so, maybe it's not really the 'program' that's the problem, but what a person puts into the program. What i call my 'last apprenticeship' other teachers in the same group call their 200 hr teacher training. I was at the studio 20 or so hours a week. Many of the other trainees were there 6-8 hrs a week. So, i think we probably did get very different things out of our teacher training experiences. Could the same be true of other teacher trainings? Also, i came to this teacher training with three other apprenticeships under my belt. Many of my fellow trainees had less than 2 yrs experience in yoga. some had less than 2 months. I think that that wuold lead us to getting very different experiences and results from our teacher trainings--so perhaps this impacts it as well.
and then, even within comprehensive programs (however that's defined) with similarly experienced individuals doing a similar program in a similar way, each individual will have his or her own interest in the topics that are presented, and go into some in more depth than in other topics, or than what other students will do with those specific topics vs the others as well.
goodness, the whole thing is complex and diverse. |
|
| |
|
| Comprehensive, Integral, wholistic, taking into account all spheres of life.
I think the leaders in this are at www.integralnaked.com . The chakra system is a good place to start. Since it has all the levels of conscouisness in manifestation for a human being. Different states of conscouisness like waking, deaming, and causal (deep sleep) and stages of development such as traditional, modern( rational), post-modern (egalitarian) would be brought into it. Different types of intelligence such as cognative, kinesthetic, emotional, moral, intuitive etc also.
I think the yoga tradition is very comprehesive in its writings but not made clear for modern life. In practice it is emergent. Meaning unfolding in time. I am awestruck by intregral studies and practices. Ken Wilber has a great set of CD's on this called Kosmic consciousness. And integralnaked.com has an awesome forum. I do not want to waste your time with what I think is comprehesive since it would be very long. I refer you to the center that does this. |
|
| |
|
| For the record, Innerline has consistently given the "best" advice regarding yoga in previous posts. I've never met Innerline but he seems like one of the saner people giving advice on this post.
Here's the newest mantra Bikram teachers should learn - R'OM (range of motion). Seems like some Bikram teachers like to SuperSize in class - more is better. Dangerous. Fortunately, there are some really good teachers out there, too.
|
|
| |
|
| Comprehensive, Integral, wholistic, taking into account all spheres of life.
is it truly possible to do this in a training, or should the training teacher a person how to do this for themselves. I think that trainees should have a basis or a beginning, the trainings should teach a person the basics of how to teach, and then the teacher should teach themselves to be integral.
i think it's difficult to put everything on the training. Even though i've done many apprenticeships in different styles, studied various aspects of yoga and consciousness (in other modalities or expressions), i still don't feel that my knowledge is "comprehensive"--i'm continually learning and continuing my education. The trainings that i take may focus in a given area (asana for example, or anatomy, or energy work), but ultimately, it's up to me as an individual to truly do 'integral' studies.
I think the leaders in this are at www.integralnaked.com.
thanks for the link; i'll definately check it out.
Ken Wilber has a great set of CD's on this called Kosmic consciousness.
i love ken wilver's work! i've read so many of his books and articles. i love sex ecology spirituality. it's just amazing. |
|
| |
|
| do you have to subscribe (pay) to join the forums? it's right in line with what i'm reading/thinking/doing. i'd love to participate, but i don't have the extra $$$ to join.  |
|
| |
|
| Yes the forum is $10 per month. But for all who are interested in "comprehensive" at integralnaked.com click on integral and then integral data and read the intros. This work has cleared up alot of confusion for me. They have been able to make aware of a post-modern disease called boomeritis. Very interesting. I have not met a yoga person without boomeritis. I see it in myself every day. It has helped me see what my next steps in development are after alot of development.
Zoebird: Contact them and see if their is a way to join without paying. In the past they have done different things to get in free. |
|
| |
|
| innerline:
thanks. i zoomed around the messageboards and learned a lot.  |
|
| |
|
| I live in Seattle and have wonderful teachers as well. My sister lived in Dallas and had a really bad experience where the teachers would yell at her. She visited the studio that I practice in and she loved it. I believe that with anything there is going to be good people and bad people. It's unfortunate but it's life...
On another note... Bikram himself as a teacher, from what I understand, is not a touchy, feely, feel-good guy. He tells it like it is but also praises you. he does not believe in stroking ones ego for the sake of doing so... I don't see anything wrong with that. |
|
| |
|
| I see your point, but, unfortunatley, is this not what America is about? I don't 100% agree with him, but, he has made an empire... |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Wibus - 2005-07-26 2:07 AM
I see your point, but, unfortunatley, is this not what America is about? I don't 100% agree with him, but, he has made an empire...
You know what?? I get so sick and tired of hearing "It's the American Way" or "Is this not what America is about?". Sure, we all say that when we think of McD's, big successful corporations, and yep, it would seem that is the American way. However, it is not the American way. Sometimes I feel that America has been abused by foreign countries. They come over here, make their money, and send it back home to help their families...which I do not have a problem with...until...its starts to interfere with the quality of American life and my children's future. For instance, in Atlanta last week I pulled up to the gas pump because the sign read $2.15 for gas. After I finished pumping I looked down and saw that it was $2.20, NOT $2.15. When I approached the Banghladeshi guy behind the counter, his comment was "Oh, we were just going to change that". It made me furious and I cussed him out for it! This is not the first time this has happened to me and it has happened to others all over the city. Its the new game. This is the kind of BS that I hate and do not want in my country. Nor did my ancestors. America's foundation was not based on this nonsense. We had integrity and we had honesty. We are no different from the Indian culture, we just have to much freedom to make bad choices and too much freedom to be dishonest! Which is worse than living in a suppressed culture because of the karmic results of our actions..there will be a price to pay one day. I do not want America to be a garbage dump, which it is beginning to. Who is going to be responsible for this?? Are we suppose to sit back and say..."Oh, its the American way??" BUL* SH*T!!
My Indian husband called me this a.m. to tell me that there was a missing girl found dead and it was blamed on 2 Indians that were American born and that their parents were so ashamed that they were leaving the US. I have not been able to clarify this, as this is gossip going around the Indian people, but my husband said, this is not what our culture is about and should have never happened. I flatly told him, Yes, it has happened, people get murdered in India and Nepal all the time. Why would it be any different here in the US?? |
|
| |
|
| Wow. I've lurked around this forum for a while and this is the first post I've felt compelled to respond to. I find it interesting that you see the need to point out that the guy behind the conuter was Bangladeshi. Would you have said "the white guy behind the counter", if he was white?
I'm not sure what you mean by America being the garbage dump. But as far back as the first boat of immigrants, they were pretty much the rejects from Europe back then. So in a way, we've always been the "garbage dump", though I strongly reject the connotation of that phrase. Since that time America has been a place for people to come and start anew. And look what a bunch of "rejects" built this country into.
I also like the freedom we have here. Yes, we have freedom to make extremely bad choices, but to me, that makes the good choices, the *voluntary* good choices, that much better. I think that is so much better than forced "good" choices. Having lived in a suppressed society myself, I appreciate the freedom and would not give that up for anything.
I don't really know what people mean when they say the "American way". And equally, I don't know what you mean when you say something is not the American way. The only thing that has ever made sense to me is that you don't have to follow any "way" in America. You live your life according to your own philosophies. Who is any of us to define what the "American way" is? |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well, one thing I can definitely say is...that the American way and the foundation of our forefathers was not based on dishonesty, cheating, free form sex with no morals or value, etc. the list goes on and on. You can still live your life according to your personal philosophies without the negative behaviors and still have a common ground of decency, honesty, integrity and so on. My observation of foreigners that come here from different cultures have been that they were sooo suppressed and coming to America only gave them the freedom to live out the opposite of what their culture's represent. They have no respect for Americans, they think that we are some lower life form to take advantage from and that we owe them something. Having a free society does not mean taking advantage of, it means respecting others and simply being free without worry of someone taking advantage of you, stealing from you, and cleaning up afterthemselves. Another words if you operate a business, you should provide clean restroom facilities with toilet tissue, soap and paper towels. If you own a restaurant, you need to provide fresh food with sanitary practices that would exceed the standard requirements.
This is coming from a person who is married to a man from another culture. I know from experience how foreigner's view my country and how they really don't give a crap about America, they just want to make $$. I say this based on 50% of the foreigners in this country. The other 50% are the foreigners who do care and do their part in supporting and maintaining our country's integrity and beauty..with respect. Now, there is another side to the American's that don't give a crap either, which is also probably around 50% too!
If that had been a white guy behind the counter....my wrath would have been much much worse!!!
There *used* to be somewhat of an American way...but because of all the re-structuring, immigrants and foreign influence, there is no more. America is lost - no doubt about that. Soo, if we were to apply yogic principals to our behavior as we operate in our society, our world...what would happen?? Just because you were in a suppressed society, does not give you a license to come to a foreign country and do what the h*%l you want either, just because you grew up learning about America thinking it's free here. We ALL have some kind of moral responsibility to do what is right for ourselves, our society and mostly for the Earth's balance. |
|
| |
|
| Cyndi,
Our country was not founded on values but a wish to avoid prosecution of personal religion and taxation.
This country from the beginning was about $$$. The early settlers wiped out the Native Americans, enslaved the African Americans and had a habit of not keeping promises. It has also had a foundation in valuing money over morality.
Racism has been a struggle since the beginning even up till today. The ideal moral you suggest about this country when you look closer, only really apply to the "white man only" club. Look at the 1950-70 civil right issues.
Edited by yogabrian 2005-07-26 11:57 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Actually Brian, I was referring to the Native Americans....not the "White Men". I do not consider the early settlers as Americans...I consider them theives! True Americans are the Native Americans and I consider myself one of those...not the English Settlers. I am almost certain, according to the Dharma, that I have participated in past lives as an Early American settler in one of my past lives, however, my veiwpoint and who I am today does not agree with the actions that took place between the Native Americans and the White Men, over 230 years ago...don't have the exact date, but you know what I mean. The time of Pocahantos and John Smith,
Just because the White Men did that, does not make it right. I wish we could wipe it all out and start all over again. But, we can do something now, unfortunately, no one is paying attention and could care less. Only a small few of us are making a difference. |
|
| |
|
| History depends on your whosever story you want to believe.
America is always compared to Utopia and, thus, always falls flat.
Personally, I think money is a good thing and I'm glad, no estatic, I live in a place where I can live as a single female and make a decent living.
Besides reading other people's opinions on these issues, I encourage folks to pick up a copy of The Economist, a well reported British magazine, to learn about current, global events.
For example, why didn't CNN ever report on the the wives of the leaders in Africa that spent aid money (money other countries donated to benefit African nations as a whole) like it's water on their own personal wardrobe and jewellry? One lady was banned by the European Union from entering Europe b/c she spending habits were considered obscene. I can't remember her name, so I will just reference The Economist.
It's very juvenille to think of all white Americans as bad and the rest of the world is persecuted by them. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well, some people would say that it is karma - for both sides. I truly believe that by living in the present moment, making the right choices and decisions that affect other people's lives, is the most important thing we can do to make anything right at this stage of the game. So, having that said, whatever I have posted is not about blaming and punishing, it is about making the right choices, unselfish choices for today in this very moment. Sure, we all have to make $$ to live. I personally think that it is so out of balance that even trying to correct the past mistakes is so mind boggling and hopeless. This is our karma too. We get to reap our karmic results - globally and personally. Going back to undo the damage takes a lot of effort and awareness. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 338
| Could you say more about reaping our cosmic karma globally? I really don't understand. |
|
| |
bikram bad teachers.
