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| Inversions and menses? I have yet to say anything about it. I read that the reason for avoiding inversions is b/c it can make your period heavier & also to honor your body during the moon phase. I have always done inversions no matter my cycle and it does not effect me, but realize it must be a problem for some women. So, how do you talk about it? I must admit, silly as I sound, I'm embarrassed to be talking about people's menstruation. I am prepared to get over it, but would like to know how some of you discuss it with your class.
Edited by Kym 2006-02-24 5:00 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well, its a natural thing, right?? So, you shouldn't worry about beating around the bush. You can always find an elegant way of putting it. Like for instance, your dialogue could be something like this, "Ladies, this next posture is an inversion, if some of you are on your monthly cycle, you may want to set this one out, and for you ladies that are familiar and okay with inversions, let's begin". I wouldn't make a big deal out of it unless during the hold times, you can make a mention of why the posture might be uncomfortable and avoided during this time...make it brief and quick...but most importantly to the point without giving much details. Also, yoga is all about the body so no one is going to have a problem and if anything, will be appreciative of your heartfelt concern. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| I don't make a big deal out of it. When it comes time to teach shoudlerstand i just say "Ladies, we don't do shoulderstand while we are menstruating so anyone who is not going upside down today for ANY reason - neck problems, whatever - please get these props and go to that corner and I'll give you an alternate pose to do." I do demo inversions sometimes when I am menstruating (I hope Geeta Iyengar doesn't lurk here!) but try to find a student to demo for me if I can. Some balk some whine, some are horribly embarrassed but we all get over it. By Level II most are ok with just telling me and by Level III it has become a non-issue. In our advanced classes we just call it out to the teacher or say "Red Tent today!"  |
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| I do not discourage women not to do it during their menses, but I have a different opinion and references from others in different yoga styles.
Much to what others believe - i think its good to give the gravitational pull on the organs a bit of a break, especailly during this time.
I do inversions, and all my students do inversions with no adverse effects.
If they are in that much pain I don't think inversions would be the main asanas they would have issues with.
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| I was told to teach my students to avoid inversions during their mense. Especially during the first three days, which is most critical because of the increased blood flow at that time.
I've been taught that too much inversion during mense can cause "toxic shock" because the old blood can get trapped when in opposition to gravity. Also, it just sort of makes sense that you're trying to rid the body of the blood, and going upside down halts or delays that process at least some degree. So, better to be safe than sorry. I teach my students not to do it, but if they've learned otherwise, at least I've warned them.
Carole
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| unless your holding your inversion for over an hour I cannot see how these effects could possibly happen...
really, you don't stop producing feces or urine while you are inverted, and that could cause just as much toxin in the system. Your body doesn't stop working just because you went upside down for a few minutes.
What you are taught is one thing - but if you want facts there are many papers that can go either way, but don't scare women into not doing positions because someone told you so. When women ask me I tell them that they should go and make an educated decision for themself. But I know some yoga styles teach that upside down is bad... but most times that is males that have come to that conclusion...
I have never had toxic shock and, in fact inversions actually help aleviate some of the massive pain I get during my menses.
Do your research... and educate your students to make their own minds up about it, if they aren't comfortable with it, then support them, if they are comfortable, then support them as well. |
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| shnen,
I'm so glad someone else thinks this. I was trained to not even do forward folds during the first two days of the menses, which wasn't going to happen in teaching. Finally I did a little more research and decided that no one had given a good reason for this precaution.
Neither the western toxic leak idea, nor the eastern idea that you shouldn't reverse the downward energy ring true to me. I mean, to feel better wouldn't you want to balance out the downward energy? Unless I feel so bad I don't want to do anything, I do normal yoga during my menses.
When my students ask I tell them that many experts say that they shouldn't do inversions, but there is some disagreement on the topic. I let the reasons why some people say they shouldn't do inversions and I let them decide for themselves.
Edited by skatrenah 2006-02-25 7:35 PM
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| I personally lean toward the findings that inversions will do no harm during menses. Just doesn't to make sense to me, I've never had a problem, have never heard of anyone having a problem, and the research does not seem to support it adequately.
Maybe that's why I'm uncomfortable with announcing that women should not do inversions during their cycle. I don't think it's correct. Most of what I read is wishy-washy at best. And I bet for anything someone could find that says not to do it, someone could find an equal number that said it was ok.
For now, since it does not ring true to me, I'm not going to make announcements about it. If I read something compelling, I'll change my mind. If anyone asks me about it, I'll tell them what I think, then encourage them to do a little extra research themselves and make their own decision.
Edited by Kym 2006-02-25 9:30 PM
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| Here is something I just found:
First of all, there is no consensus on whether to avoid inversions during a woman's menstrual cycle. The two opinions are basically divided between those who think that no women should practice inversions during menstruation and those who feel the choice varies from woman to woman.
Those who encourage a ban on inversions cite fears that certain physical problems may arise. Until recently, increased risk of endometriosis was considered the most common risk. But since more is known now about that disease, the idea has been debunked. There is also a theory that inversions may cause "vascular congestion" in the uterus resulting in excessive menstrual flow. (For more info, click here.) If true, this risk is probably most relevant for women who hold inversions a long time. Some teachers say that since a woman's energy is low during menstruation, high-energy poses such as inversions should be avoided. This makes sense, yet not all women experience low energy during menstruation; indeed, many feel quite energized.
Philosophically speaking, menstruation is considered to be apana, meaning that energetically, its vitality is downward-flowing. The argument against inversions during menstruation maintains that inversions will disturb this natural energetic flow. However, inversions are recommended in some systems of yoga as therapy to improve elimination of excess apana. In Yoga: The Path to Holistic Health, B.K.S. Iyengar recommends practicing inversions to alleviate menstrual problems such as heavy flow and irregular periods.
The contradictions don't stop there. Some teachers recommend avoidance of inversions such as Sirsasana (Headstand) and Sarvangasana (Shoulderstand) while suggesting no such caution with other poses that invert the uterus, such as Uttanasana (Standing Forward Bend) and Downward-Facing Dog.
Since I know of no studies or research that makes a compelling argument to avoid inversions during menstruation, and since menstruation affects each woman differently and can vary from cycle to cycle, I am of the opinion that each woman is responsible for making her own decision. Pay attention to how you respond to inversions (indeed, ALL asanas) during your period. A short Headstand may be fine while a longer one isn't; maybe you will find that backbends or twists adversely affect your period. If your energy is very low, restorative poses may be just the ticket, though you may find a more active sequence of standing poses alleviates cramps and the blues. You really won't know what works and what doesn't until you feel it in your own body.
The bottom line is that hatha yoga is full of contradictions and varied opinions, leaving each of us ultimately responsible for our own choices. Pay attention to your body and discover what works and what doesn't—not just during your period but every day.
Barbara Benagh, YJ's 2001 Asana columnist, founded the Yoga Studio in Boston in 1981 and teaches seminars nationwide. Currently, Barbara is writing a yoga workbook for asthmatics and can be reached at www.yogastudio.org.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Sorry I don't have time to do a full reply to this but I must say that Path to Holistic Health refers ONLY to doing inversions before and especially right after menstruation. I realise this is not exactly clear in the book and there are some places where the editing is plain wrong. Somewhere in that book it says to use a yoga strap 2 feet long  So there are errors.
I absolutely respect Barbara Benagh however I have to accept the wisdom of the Iyengar family who, between the three of them have seen many, many thousands of students over the years and have a unique pespective on what does and doesn't work over a long period of time. Geeta has practiced for 50 years or so and is an Ayurvedic doctor. I take her advice over anyone else's. |
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| I guess it will always be a topic that noone really has any hard proof for or against it... until then I will let my students make up their own minds - educated of course.
Not one medicine is right for every single body, so one line of thought should follow the same basis.
I am glad that some agree with me, Skatrenah & Kym... I notice that there are a lot of practitioners on the boards here who are very dedicated to their style of yoga that I know don't support it!
I am a teacher - my job is to teach and educate... not push beliefs on my students. They can make up their own minds.
Edited by shnen 2006-02-26 7:47 AM
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| i think it is a topic that is infinitely debateable, so feel free to present that debate to your students. when teaching inversions, i always will state that one of the traditional contraindications of this posture is menstruation. I also state that some women feel comfortable (or even more comfortable) doing inversions during menstruation--that it can help relieve some of the discomforts of menstruation. then, i tell them to do what feels best for them--and i provide an alternative posture for those--menstruating or not--who do not want to do the pose.
For example, when teaching shoulder stand, i'll also give the other contraindications--such as people with glaucoma should not do this posture, or if they have other eye problems such as the risk of detatched retina. I'll say this as well as the menstruation stuff--so i'm teaching all of the contraindications at once. I give the alternative pose (allignment and such), and then also the shoulder stand, and then i'll explain the 'debate' about whether or not inversions should be done for glaucoma, for menstruation, for whatever else, and why.
most people are intellegent and will make up their own minds. I do inversions during my mensus because when i was first doing yoga (as a child), when i started menstruating i kept practicing like i always did--not knowing of the contraindication (apparently, my mother didn't either). I love shoulder stand and plow pose as part of my closing sequence, and i found that during mensus--particularly early on, shortly after menarche--i really enjoyed these postures as they took the strain off of my lower back (i would sometimes get mild 'back cramps'). I've never had a health problem from doing this--in fact my menstrual cycle has always been really mild and great (no cramps; bloating is my worst thing, and i do yoga for that specificly).
I strive to present to my students what the debate/discussion about this is, where it comes from (where i think it comes from in the tradition), and what other perspectives exist. Some people will side with tradition (and their experience), and some people won't (based on their experience). And that's ok with me. But i teach it as 'either way, make up your own mind' and 'here are the arguments for and against.' |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Just a couple more thoughts, since I know people ultimately have to make their own decision on this. I am not "pushing" my ideas but responding to questions.
1) Lots of things feel good but are not good for us. I have all kinds of inflammtory examples of this, but let's go with a silly one. People who liked Barney the dinosaur (*gag* you know where I stand on this!) said it was good for kids becasue it had constant repititions of songs they enjoyed. That did not make it high quality programming for children.
2) I have trouble understanding why people feel it is a better idea to go with their own intuition than with the opinion of some of the most highly respected yoga masters on the planet. I do understand those who are looking for western science to verify their beleifs but do remember that almost everything the yogis have ever said has been proven true when we are finally able to measure it. |
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| Here again-you may think Barney is not a good show, but I do. I loved how the show promoted certain social skill such as sharing, cleaning up, and manners. Just goes to show that even though you may think something is bad, someone else thinks it's good. I was an educator before staying home with my kids, so I'm not talking from a complete lack of education on the matter.
I know we're not discussing the merits of Barney, but your example didn't exemplify for me that people can't make decent judgements for themselves.
As for listening to people of power & heritage, I still think it's a very good idea to discern for yourself what it is right and what is not. People are fallible and information changes. There was a time that the brightest minds on earth thought the planet was flat.
Edited by Kym 2006-02-26 1:50 PM
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| Since I'm new here, I want to add that I'm not trying to be argumentative-just discussing. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I say follow what feels right. I instruct to listen to your inner voice!!!!
Happy Sunday all! 
Mishy |
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| The only yoga 'style' I have found to say women shouldn't invert is Iyengar and Iyengar based teachers, besides that I have found nothing that says it shouldn't be performed.
No doubt Iyengar (and certain followers of Iyengar) is one of the great instructors, however he isn't the only one.
There are various opinions out there just as educated that say the opposite - so how can you write them off?
My students always know that no matter the pose - no matter the time of month (for men and women ;) ) if they are feeling something off or wrong, to come out of it and let me know.
Out of curiosity - how long does everyone have their classes hold inversions... lets say shoulderstand? |
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| The only full inversion I teach is shoulder stand and I only teach it in classes where I can trust students to listen to their bodies. I was trying to work them up to 5 minutes on the advice of Iyengar's book. I'd tell them to come down when they needed to and give them 15 second cues so they would know where they were.
But these days I've started bringing it down to 1 or 2 minutes or even less, because one student said he had some pain afterwards. Even some of my more advanced students are a bit competitive, despite the fact that they know better.
My current teacher has been threatening to make us hold handstands longer (up to 5 minutes), but so far we've only gotten up to 30 seconds. A lot of new people have joined the advanced class and she has to teach them from scratch, because almost no one comes in knowing handstand or elbow stand, no matter how advanced they are. Inversions just aren't taught that much in gyms.
As to the Iyengars and inversions...
From what I understand, much of what the Iyengars know is from "experiential" research. One biography of BKS Iyengar said that he used his own body as a laboratory. This was necessary because he was separated from his teacher and sent to teach fairly early in his studies by the standards of that day.
They have much more experience than I do by about 60 years, so I wouldn't expect you to take my word over theirs.
I really don't know why this doesn't ring true to me, but it didn't ring true even before I knew there was a controversy. I followed it for a long time, but shoulderstand helps me avoid stiffness in my neck and so at first I just decided that the advantages outweighed the risks. But my period actually gets better when I practice inversions, so I did some research and found other people didn't agree with that particular rule.
At some point BKS Iyengar had to trust his own intuition and that of his students to develop his highly detailed system. On this point I trust my own intuition and my own sense of body awareness.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I keep them there (Shoulder/headstand) until they lose their concentration (@#$%, I'm such a bad speller! Why don't forums have spell check?)
Mishy |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Mish - I have asked that question myself many a time. Spell check for forums please, web gods!
Ladies - I am not trying to be argumentative. Goodness knows, I am the very soul of tact and decorum I am simply pointing out what the most authoritative living voice of yoga has said about this issue. And there really is nobody who is comparable in knowledge except perhaps Patabhi Jois, and he has not had the advantage of teaching side by side with a woman for the past 50 or so years (as far as I know...) who has a phenomenal and profound intellect as well. And this does not even include the influence of Mrs. Iyengar, who was also a practitioner as well as mother and advisor and the other 3 or 4 daughters.
Now, that having been said, I must tell you that I have had my own doubts about this and plenty o' troubles in that department that I used to "self medicate" with inversions as well. I used to spend 30 - 40 minutes at a time in halasana as a young teen (on a bare floor, no less  ) because it helped so much. And when I came back to yoga I was surprised at the "rules" and quite prepared to be rebellious and do what felt good. I also have headaches that are mitigated by keeping my neck soft with halasana and it really, really bugged me that I couldn't do some of the poses that don't even look like inversions but Geeta says are no-no's. But my teachers helped me both by their own experiences and with knowledge they gained in trips to Pune to understand that the Iyengars have not just made this stuff up out of their heads to p*ss us off. There is a system and it works really well if we delve into it and use it. I now use viparita dandasana to keep my neck soft during that week of the month and work inversions intensely before and after my period, which is wonderful. Heaven knows, this won't be happening forever. I hope.....
And I have to admit I don't always do as my advisors tell me to. I am not supposed to drink coffee but until my doctors can find me something that tastes that good and starts my morning soooo delightfully, I am not giving up my one cup in the morning. So I understand that some things are just so compelling we are not willing to give them up. It does come down to personal choice. OTOH, I do understand that my precious one cup of coffee is probably not doing me any good in the long run and there may be a day when I will regret it. Only time will tell. I have said here before that 20 or 30 years from now they will have to do some serious studies on female yogis and see what actually happened.
Oh - my Level I students hold full shoulderstand for 30 sec. to one minute and then work up from there to 5 minutes minimum for a longer term practitioner. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Well, let me totally intrude here. I've certainly heard a lot about what Geeta
and others say on this subject, and since Geeta has had personal experience
with the matter, and lots of students to work with, her opinion can't be discounted.
On the other hand, I've never heard any terribly believable explanation for avoiding
inversions other than the obvious role of gravity. So, I would tend to think that
one *should* consider how one feels or is affected by the practice. If it has negative
effects, then avoid it. If not, then do it and see whether any negative effect appears.
Since there are NO medical studies to show actual problems arising as a result of
practicing inversions, the basis for avoiding them is simply experiential.
Ms. Bay Guy once told me that this proscription was a lot like other medeival
rules that barred women from doing this or that because they were somehow
unclean. Of course, she's not yogi.
... bg
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| i'm going to come at this authority issue from another perspective--outside of yoga asanas--altogether.
i agree that we should both listen to and honor our heritage and the experience of those who have come before us. not only is the iyengar family resting on their experiences with their own bodies and those of their thousands of students, but they're also relying on a long-standing tradition (and traditional perspective) regarding women's bodies. This may be a lot of fact combined with a lot of ideas that are flawed based on cultural perspectives, rather than 'universal realities' or 'truths.' it does point to that idea of human fallability.
On the flip side of this, yoga teaches us to find the inner teacher. this is also a long-standing part of the tradition, handed down to us from those self-same yogins mentioned above. And, it is true that many yogins did not or do not have regular teachers, or daily access to teachers to ask for broad explainations of various aspects of an asana or esoterica. Ultimately, they had to rely on their own experience and intellect (as well as their understanding and education from tradition) to arrive at a certain idea of what they think is generally most appropriate. So, at a certain level, there's this other side.
Now, my personality type--using the Enniegram system--is the 6. the type six has a problem with authority. the type six also wants an authority--and therefore is often in conflict with authority. Wants an authority, but that authority has to be absolutely trustworthy. But, what 6s learn is that most authorities aren't trustworthy, because all authorities hae their own 'things' that color their perspectives of whatever it is they're an authority on. This doesn't mean that the authority should be tossed like a baby out of the bathwater, but rather through this experience the 6 developes the ability to become his/her OWN authority on a matter--trusting their interior spirit and self beyond the teachings of another. It really sticks to that buddhist idea of 'don't just believe it because I say it, or someone else says it, or some scripture says it, but because you know, from your own experience, that it's true."
Often, it's a combination of these elements that determines what is true or right in this circumstance. Without the scripture or authority figure pointing the direction, the student would never look in that direction for that sort of answer. Just as tourist says regarding her years prior to having a teacher--no one said 'no' and therefor eit wasn't a concern. once someone did say 'no' then it became a concern, a place of seeking--and then, her experience follows this advice. I do not know that this is always the case for myself--sometimes it definately is.
I have been learning to become my own authority on any number of matters, but i strongly look to the tradition, to scientific evidences from east and west, as well as many other external places for information on any number of topics that concern (or even don't concern) me. I take that information into great consideration, and ultimately i experiment with it on my own. And then, i make a decision as to what I think is best.
I think that this is no different than what Iyengar did. We know that krishnamycharya had a number of students--and each of those students went in very different directions, even though they had the same central authority. Why? well, becaues they took the information from that authority, and then experimented with it, and then came to these results--iyengar, jois, etc. The results are different because each of these students experimented on their own, and from this, had their perspective and experience of that information--and became their own authorities.
I think that it's no different for any other yoga student. If we're to follow the teachers, then at a certain point, we're to FOLLOW the teachers--meaning doing what they did. They experimented. They thought for themselves. They challenged the information from the tradition--and accepted what worked, and discovered new things, and cast off what didn't. No different for any yoga student--that's part of doing yoga.
So, i like to present the debate. Let the student experiment and decide.
as to the question of how long to hold shoulder stand--1-3 minutes, on average, then moving into plow for the same amount of time. |
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| I didn't mean to imply you were being argumentative tourist. I completely understand your position. To be sure, there are many things we don't completely understand that are absolutely true, even in western medicine.
I had two doctors tell me to take a certain medicine for headaches that wasn't headache medicine and nobody knew why it worked.
You are also correct in saying that not everything is good just because we feel good when we do it. I'll try viparita dandasana, but I can't say I'm convinced.
Everyone, here is an interesting page put together by an Iyengar teacher. It has links to the article Kym posted and some articles by Geeta Iyengar. The information is more compelling than some of the other things I've read.
http://ynottony.com/menstruation.htm |
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| There are many other authoritative practitioners out there besides Iyengar. I do not teach Iyengar influence at all (unless I do and don't know). All I am saying is that is one persons opinion, and of all the other authorities I have studied none seem to think its a big deal. Iyengar is your way because that's what you teach and you study - and that is fine... but Iyengar isn't the ONLY way... that's all I'm saying. That family isn't the be all and end all of yoga, and perhaps the age of the information can also prove to be just as damaging as good. How would they really know the goods and bads of it if they teach not to do it - chances are they really have no experience in doing it - they are passing along information that is quite old.
I am not trying to be argumentative either, but my point that it comes across as how my family seaks of christianity - that it is the only way and any other way is wrong... why? Because they said so!
and yes - spell check would be nice! ;) |
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| The Sivananda tradition also counsels against inversions during menses. My tutor has discussed this at length and gives both the traditional arguments and current western teaching according to research. He also always gets us to practise inversions in pairs so no-one does them unsupported. His reasoning, he freely admits, is protection against law suits in the west as well as concern for his students. He does however, also mention that when he studied in India, most women did inversions throughout their menses and even into advanced stages of pregnancy without apparent mishap.
I also practise Iyengar but I'll not add more as their are others here that know that tradition's views better.
Personally, I doubt the validity of many of the biomechanical explantions given as simply lying down would also create a degree of retrograde flow. Thus I follow a body awareness approach myself and only invert if my energy levels are high and I don't feel in the least light-headed or faint. Mind you, I admit that my practise is not sufficiently advanced in respect to inversions for me to be doing them that often anyway (apart from the variations on 'legs up the wall').
Fee
Edited by Orbilia 2006-02-27 8:54 AM
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what do you say about...
