|
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
   
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Ok, there is a little story to this...it's kind of funny in a silly way. Anyway, I teach a lot of classes but only a handfill have men in them. The few men I do have, well, I've had uncomfortable situations happen. Not all mind you, but more than half.
Anyway, I teach this class and at the end, when they are in savasana I come around, cover their bodies with their balckets, and then I give them (only when there is 7 students or under) a indian head massage, then massage Lavender oil into their temples and neck.
Well, this one class I have 6 students. Two being a married couple. Very nice, I really like them.
Last week I gave them all a neck massage, except the man. I felt uncomfortable. Well I thought that wasn't professional of me, especially because his wife will probably mention her massage.
This week I go around doing my thang, I come to him, (he's last). I asked hime if he wanted a neck massage and he said yes. So I reach my hands under his neck and as soon as I do the first sweep up his neck he starts groaning. I felt uncomfortable but I zoned out and just went along. He kept groaning. I'd be lying if I didn't admit it makes me uncomfortable.
I wish I could learn to detach with those feelings of mine. I have had soem situations and I am always examing my behavior for this reason.
Ok, what's everyones views on how they handle it from a man's perspective and a woman's (for that fact) if this was your husband would it bother you? Let me hear it.
I need some way to better deal with the opposite sex.
Mish
Edited by mishoga 2006-03-17 4:23 PM
|
|
| |
|
| How annoying!
I suggest not bothering with the dude. He probably doesn't mean anything by the moaning since his wife is in the class (unless he's trying to piss her off or completely clueless).
You can always be conveniently "out of time" by the time you get to him (spend more time on his wife - ha ha ha!). Or, if you had one more student in your class you wouldn't be able to massage people anyway, right?
I wonder if he would moan like that if the Dalai Lama were massaging his neck? My guess is no...
P.S. This would appy if Mish were a man getting yummy sounds from a married, female student
|
|
| |
|
| mishoga - 2006-03-17 4:21 PM
This week I go around doing my thang, I come to him, (he's last). I asked hime if he wanted a neck massage and he said yes. So I reach my hands under his neck and as soon as I do the first sweep up his neck he starts groaning. I felt uncomfortable but I zoned out and just went along. He kept groaning. I'd be lying if I didn't admit it makes me uncomfortable.
Well, this could mean lots of things. Maybe he was just really enjoying it (in a non-sexual way), and was attempting to give you some feedback? Maybe he didn't realize what he was doing? Maybe he just enjoys pushing your buttons?
If it was intentional you might try a number of different things. First, not giving anybody a rub down. I personally don't like to be touched during savasana, but that's just me. Second, whisper something to him like, "Everybodies try to be quiet". Or more confrontational "You're making me uncomfortable, could you tone down the moaning?". Or humorous, moan along with him, and reach some sort of really loud annoying climax, ala Sally in When Harry Met Sally.
Ok, what's everyones views on how they handle it from a man's perspective and a woman's (for that fact) if this was your husband would it bother you? Let me hear it.
I need some way to better deal with the opposite sex.
Mish
Grow old and ugly, that should take care of things!  Maybe you could take a leaf out of Iyengar's book and act a bit more aloof or something? |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Hey Jelloman, I try to be aloof. I closed my eyes and just let my hands do the work. It is distracting though when the class is silent as can be and he is moaning.
As far as touch, that's personal option. Either mat is turned at one corner of the head, or I directly ask them prior in a very quiet voice. I'm very respectful of personal space since I have issues with that myself.
Yea, I'm sure there is no other reason for the moans than he was releasing stress and it felt good. Amen!!!
It still makes me a bit uncomf!
I guess it's my issues. 
Mish
Edited by mishoga 2006-03-17 6:27 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| You could tell him "Quiet! you are supposed to be a corpse!" loud enough for the rest of the class to hear.... 
I am on the side of not being touched during savasana, unless it is to adjust my shoulders or something like that, and it had better be during the first few minutes. Savasana is MY time. And I have to say that if I was in that class and heard that going on I would be horribly uncomfortable and maybe not even come back. I trust the teacher and other students to be still and quiet and observe a certain amount of respect for each other's personal time and space and, aside from the teacher's instructions or the occasional snore, I would consider anything else to be invasive. Moaning would creep me out big time! |
|
| |
|
| I loved Fifi and Tourists advice--the guy is a dunce. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | Bruce, I dig that avatar.
Fifi, you're right about the Dali Lama thingie.
Tourist is always so insightful. I enjoy her (your) posts.
Mish
Edited by mishoga 2006-03-17 9:27 PM
|
|
| |
|
| I like the "you're supposed to be a corpse" line. But I don't want to be touched or oiled or anything during Savasana, and if I were someone else the sound effects would be rather distracting. I have a teacher right now who reads things during Savasana and I tell myself it provides good practice in trying to tune things out. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I have lot of students who don't like it. That's cool. It's their decision. I offer it, I do not force my will. Just to clarify that.
But I like that line too (Corpse...hehehe)!
Mish |
|
| |
|
| >M - The few men I do have, well, I've had uncomfortable situations happen. Not all mind you, but more than half.
Have you talked to other teachers in your studio? You might be having issues with male Yoga students. If more than half (too high a percentage) are creating an uncomfortable situation for you, I think you might want to have another female teacher spot you while you are teaching and try to figure out what is going on. Or knock off the neck massages. Got to ask my female teacher friends if any of their male students groan. |
|
| |
|
| mishoga,
This is not you first issue with men crossing the line no? Sounds like you need to establish some more solid boundries with your students.
When you are putting your hands on someone, your boundries must be VERY clear. Go in with purpose and intent. One must be really clear when putting hands on other especially opposite sex. Set your boundries with the person you are touching and don't let them get strange.
If a guy starts to moan erotically remember that you are the one creating the situation by touching him. If you are not ok with the reaction, tell him to stop or stop the contact. Sounds harsh, but it is much better then having every guy in your class begging to get his neck rubbed to his jollies! It also shows that you mean business and will not stand for any funny stuff!
Draw a clear line with your students (both male and female) and be firm.
Unless you have had some training in touch you also might want to reconsider your massages. Not only is it easy to hurt someone, but also you are REALLY openning yourself up to a potential legal matter. All it takes is 1 idiot to missunderstand your intent and BAM lawsuit. I think I read that you work for Bally's. Tread carefully, when I worked for Bally's in San Francisco, they made a point to mention to us that touching was a BIG no-no.
Good luck and enjoy your boundries! |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | No touchy in Bally's. Only in three of my classes. It's very light touch. Nothing heavy, just to release some tension. Believe me, I carry my own liability insurance. I know all the issues that can cause trouble. I make sure I am never left alone with children (kids yoga) for that reason.
You know, I try so hard to treat male and female the same. I don't flirt with women and I treat them the same as men. I am friendly, and I'm friendly to all. Professionally friendly, at least I don't think I'm out of line. I'd hate to think I have to treat sex differently. That would sucky....sucky!!!!
But that just might be the case.
Mish
Edited by mishoga 2006-03-17 10:51 PM
|
|
| |
|
| mishoga - 2006-03-17 10:49 PM
You know, I try so hard to treat male and female the same. I don't flirt with women and I treat them the same as men. I am friendly, and I'm friendly to all. Professionally friendly, at least I don't think I'm out of line. I'd hate to think I have to treat sex differently. That would sucky....sucky!!!!
But that just might be the case.
It may not have anything to do with the way you act, it might just be that the guys see a friendly, attractive yoga teacher, and they just go for it.
Getting somebody to watch you teach might also help also help. I'm pretty unconcious of some of the ways I hold my body (which yoga is helping with), and I think most people are in the same boat. The way I hold myself says certain things about me, which may or may not be true. For example, before I started coming I used to slump my shoulders a lot, and slouch. Now I don't do it as much, and I've been getting a lot more positive attention.
For that matter, I sometimes run off at the mouth, and don't really process all the things I say. It really freaks me out sometimes when people say, you said X, Y, or Z, and I didn't remember saying it. Personally, I blame it on the dyslexia.
Having somebody else in class can also help you feel more comfortable about the fact that it's not really your fault. |
|
| |
|
| you may want to try a quiet shhhhhh.... just to let him know he should be quiet... then if he still is making noises tell him to "act like a corpse".
He really may be enjoying it and not be realizing he is making you uncomfortable - perhaps he thinks he is showing gratitude...?
If this is his first massage in class then he may not have known how to act.
All I know is - I wanna come to one of your classes! |
|
| |
|
| That ole male/female dynamic is tough to incorporate into a profession that calls for intimacy in one form or another. I think like stated here by most, as the teacher, you know where your mind/heart is and what's implied so it's up to you to communicate that effectively and be prepared to keep communicating that depending on the individual student in a particular place and time--from a newbie to a seasoned vet. Hey, if it were easy, everybody would be a teacher---you can do it Mish. It's pretty obvious that youre a caring teacher who loves her students. |
|
| |
|
| Something else I've been meaning to add from the SIRC guide to flirting:
Research has also shown that men have a tendency to mistake friendly behaviour for sexual flirting. This is not because they are stupid or deluded, but because they tend to see the world in more sexual terms than women. There is also evidence to suggest that women are naturally more socially skilled than men, better at interpreting people's behaviour and responding appropriately. Indeed, scientists have recently claimed that women have a special 'diplomacy gene' which men lack.
This means that women need to be particularly careful to avoid sending ambiguous signals in interactions with married men, and men need to be aware that married/attached males may misinterpret friendly behaviour towards their wives/girlfriends. Otherwise, light-hearted flirtation is both harmless and enjoyable. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Mish - one thing has to be very clear here. And I am sure you know this intellectually but it is a good place to give it a bit of an airing and review (I am always conscious of all the lurkers out there who read but don't post...) You CANNOT treat men and women "the same." As a matter of fact, you can't treat any individual the same as you treat another. Your interactions differ depending on age, gender, your mood at the moment, etc. We can attempt to treat individuals equally but we need to be aware that, not only is it not possible to treat everyone the same, but undesirable.
Probably the "right" thing to do in this case (assuming his wife hasn't banned him from ever coming to class with her again...) is to offer again and then say "ok, but you need to be quiet so you don't disturb others," although my reaction would be to either eliminate the massage thing altogether ("sorry folks, I 'forgot' my massage stuff") if he shows up in class or to not offer it to him again - ever. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 1738
Location: right where I'm supposed to be | You're right Tourist.
you know, it's hard. I want to open myself to all and share all that I know. I hate having to guard myself but on the flip side, I hate feeling uptight.
I think I need to go take some Power Yoga classes and deal with men some more. In 22 years of being a fitness professional, I have to admit, I have not had to deal with men too often. (There's not many men interested in taking Hip Hop classes)
Now that I am more focused on the mind/body connection, there are more men venturing in. I like that. I just have to refine my social skills so I am not sending the wrong signals.
I had a problem with one of my employers sending me an email that bent my husband out bad. It was not the proper way to address me. Regardless, I knew it was innocent, or so I treated it as such. I saw him this morning at my class and pretty much told him that it was out of line. I approached it professionally but sweet. He apologized. It's all good now. I set the boundaries. I'm glad I did it. I seem to have a problem with that. has always been my problem. This is where yoga has helped me tremendously but I have so much to learn about myself and others. Like I said, not in this lifetime, maybe the next. 
Mishy |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Hey Mish - that maturity thing is a b*tch, isn't it? Just when you think you have it figured and you have made all the mistakes you need to make and put all that behind you, something comes up and bites you in the butt  I wish I could say that at 50, I am "there" but I have an idea there are a few more interesting times for me yet |
|
| |
|
| mishoga - 2006-03-18 12:08 PM
I set the boundaries. I'm glad I did it. I seem to have a problem with that. has always been my problem. This is where yoga has helped me tremendously but I have so much to learn about myself and others. Like I said, not in this lifetime, maybe the next.
I struggle with this sometimes too, and I think people have picked up on this in the past. (Something else lurking in the body language) Anyway, if you figure out the correct approach from the beginning it can help things avoid getting to the confrontation stage, which makes things easier on everybody. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | That sounds like such an unpleasant experience! "Moaning" sounds really bad, like the guy was way too into it...he wasn't just going "...mmmm...", I guess..?.. which might just be some guy way of letting you know it feels good...? I have been to a number of yoga classes where teachers [both male and female, but mostly female] did some kind of shiatsu head massage during savasana. AND I have been to a number of such classes where the female teacher simply did the women and skipped over me. Between the women who touched me and the women who didn't, there was a really simple difference: the ones who avoided me were not comfortable with me. That's something you can sense even without the physical interaction. I'm not insulted by it either -- it's just part of the normal dynamic between men and women. I suppose that the ones who did touch me realized that I was not going to go weird on them. I've also had female teachers who have touched me in ways that could only be called sexual. Sometimes I just rolled with it, and sometimes it really made things tense for me... |
|
| |
|
| Bay Guy - 2006-03-19 9:44 PM
Between the women who touched me and the women who didn't, there was a really simple difference: the ones who avoided me were not comfortable with me. That's something you can sense even without the physical interaction. I'm not insulted by it either -- it's just part of the normal dynamic between men and women.
True. I've had some interesting interactions with the local pilates teacher. I think sometimes I make her uncomfortable, and I've been thinking about it. Sometimes I think that she's attracted to me on some level, and already has a BF, whom she doesn't want to cheat on. I've known she has a BF before I started taking class, and I act accordingly. Some days I think it may be that she's also struggling with the same stuff Mishy's struggling with, guys who took things too far.
Somedays no problems, others she seems to think it's a bit strange to have me in class. She usually comes around to the students individually and helps adjust their approaches. Some days she skips me, some days she doesn't. Some times I think it's intentional, because she doesn't want to deal with me, which I can completely understand.
Other days she comes right up to me, and does something playful, like poking me in the gut. One day I was standing outside the studio after a class, and she came up and gave me a hug. I'm personally a little physically stand-offish, so she's always the one initiating this sort of stuff.
She also has some basic insecurities for whatever reason, so this may be part of that too. Somedays she's completely over them, and wholey in control, other days it's pretty clear that her demons (whatever they are) are doing the driving. When she's feeling insecure, she's very self-concious, which may also be what I'm picking up on. She's unsure of herself, and internally criticing her every move.
I've also had female teachers who have touched me in ways that could only be called sexual. Sometimes I just rolled with it, and sometimes it really made things tense for me...
Interesting isn't it? It's almost impossible to prove, or really be anything other than subjective, and yet there it is. (BTW, I've never had that feeling with the pilates teacher) |
|
| |
|
| Excellent response, Tourist. Humorous yet pointed enough to get the message over. He may not even realise he was being so vocal (tight shoulders/neck can affect hearing BTW).
Fee
|
|
| |
|
| admittedly, i didn't read all of the posts in the stream.
my husband, when he gets a massage, makes more noise during a massage than he does during sex. on a funny note, we were staying at a friend's house recently, and i was giving my husband his massage. anyway, i'm doing the thai massage thing, and i'm working on two pressure points, and he's moaning away ecstaticly. my friend bangs on the door and says 'can you keep it down? it's kinda embarassing out here!' and as she's banging the door flies open and she sees the two of us--fully clothed--doing the massage thing. ryan didn't realize he was so noisy.
i do not know what ryan is like in other settings--if he were in a room with people, he wouldn't likely make as much noise, but his hellerworker and his other massage therapist (yes, he gets lots and lots of massage) says that he does make a lot of noise. And, they're ok with it--it's nonsexual and it's releasing the tension.
I think the main thing is to notice your boundaries and only do what you're comfortable with. if you're not comfortable massaging the men in your class, then don't do it. If they ask you about it, you simply say that you're not comfortable with it--because of your personal boundaries or relationship boundaries or whatever--and most guys will accept that. it's ok to set a boundary and be honest about it, but not have to actively defend it either.
i do massage both the men and women in my class, and i've never really had any shame, fear, or discomfort in doing so. sometimes i have to reign the guys in a bit (they can get a bit crude with jokes, and that can make other women in the classroom uncomfortable), but for the most part, everyone behaves appropriately.
|
|
| |
|
| zoebird - 2006-03-20 11:28 AM
I think the main thing is to notice your boundaries and only do what you're comfortable with. if you're not comfortable massaging the men in your class, then don't do it. If they ask you about it, you simply say that you're not comfortable with it--because of your personal boundaries or relationship boundaries or whatever--and most guys will accept that. it's ok to set a boundary and be honest about it, but not have to actively defend it either.
It also helps if you say "This is my policy", and make it apply to all men. That way nobody feels singled out. |
|
| |
question for both sexes????
