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| fifi:
i find it to be a strange thing when managers turn into reactive 'bean counters' as you called them. i wish that more managers would take a 'learning and improving' approach. I feel the same way about my insurance, etc.
what does 'rise through the ranks' mean, practically speaking? There are teachers who are more experienced and less 'famous' than seane corn, some who are even in the same age group. There are teachers who are just as knowledgeable but aren't gracing covers of magazines because they aren't as photogenic. I think that one of the problems with this idea is that it falls into the idea of celebrity--that celebrity somehow makes someone a good or appropriate teacher who has the 'right' to touch anyone.
if a person doesn't want to be touched, no teacher--no matter how famous or important--has the 'right' to touch that person. to do so is to violate the personal, emotional, and physical boundaries of that individual. it is violent and it is abusive. But, a teacher can only know if they are doing something wrong or inappropriate if the teacher is told that the student does not want to be touched.
when i worked in the girls juvenile detention center for one semester, i did not touch any of the girls because many had been sexually abused or sexually abusive. touch could send them to places of extreme rage or shame or whatever--and this could set back their processes in councelling and in their self healing. While many of us 'regular folks' do not hvae the extreme stress/abuse that these girls had suffered in our lives, our needs to not be touched are no less valid. No amount of experience or fame or 'rising in the ranks' would make it appropriate for a teacher to touch these students.
But, i think that from a management perspective, since the spa tends to function on the novelty approach, a recognition that deep assists should not be practiced is a good one. i do have a question though, that mishoga could probably answer--did this teacher give 'deep assists' to everyone or only to those people who appeared to be adept? this contextual element may make a big difference on the communication between her and management. |
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| i find the working your edge thing really hard to describe when people hear things differently. with new students, i often find that they want to do the 'advanced' versions of the pose with horrid alignment that will lead to injury. But, their compensations don't cause any pain or discomfort.
so, i back them well out of that version, then modify heavily and then i may hold the difficult parts (where their body wants to compensate) in place while we modify and dilute around that space so that they can get the feel of the basic structure of the posture. While most people find that uncomfortable physically, i try to get them to dilute the posture around it and breathe to learn to relax into finding the place where there is discomfort (but not extreme) and they're 'heading in the right direction' into openning fully into the posture. of course, this part is only done after the first 6 or 8 weeks of class, as prior adjustments are done with verbal instruction and two fingers.
personally, i do 'believe in' and 'teach' the concept of moving into the space of discomfort--not pain, and not extreme discomfort--and breathing into that space. I also teach that it's not necessary to do that for every pose of every class--that it's better to work on an area of many poses or on one part of the body. That is, perhaps today every posture that works hamstrings will be an 'edge' pose, and every other posture will be more of an exploration of modifications and relaxing versions to set up and prepare for the 'edge' poses. or perhaps you'll work hip alignment. or perhaps you're working the locks through the whole class. or maybe there's an emotional edge that you're learning to work/work through. So, there are lots of ways of 'working the edge.'
i must admit that when my husband is in class, he gets very specialized attention. because we do thai massage about every night, i really know his body. he takes yoga class once a week, my class, and he gets a lot of specialized, deep adjustments that NO ONE else gets. but, it's not sexual in any way (thta is, it's professional), and since i don't know anyone else as well, i certainly wouldn't feel comfortable giving them some of the adjustments that my husband gets. |
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| I had my girlfriend in a class once and that was the only time I actually had a male student come up to me after class very upset to complain that I was giving certain female students many more adjustments than I gave him. He said some of the women got 5 or 6 adjustments and he only got 1. The theme of the class that day was getting over judgments and "right" and "wrong." Apparently that part eluded this man. Certain students get more attention, but that's just the way it is. It's not based on looks. As a teacher, I adjust people for safety. I adjust people that need or want to go deeper and look like they are ready. And I adjust people that just look like they could use a little attention. Although everyone in the class is doing the same thing, not everyone is same. They each need different help and you have to choose who gets help where and when.
Some people have body language and facial expressions in class or an aura that says, "leave me alone." Sometimes i misread the signals. I generally follow my instincts about whom I should or shouldn't touch. Students that can communicate that they have issues are welcome because it lets me know my boundaries with them.
I don't like the ageism. I know lots of young teachers that are great. I look very young so I think I get some resistance from the older sect, but i have won some of them over gradually. I know a lot of older teachers that stink so I don't think age is a defining factor.
Another thing that you want to be aware of is that certain schools of teachers do deeper adjustments than others. I find that Ashtanga teachers and Jivamukti teachers do some deep adjustments. It's part of the practice. And some of them have very little regard for your particular pain threshold. Sometimes you have to take responsibility if you are going to something like a very strong ashtanga, jivamukti of vinyasa class that the teachers are going to be hands on and try to go deep. Sure for the new student it's hard to know. However, if you've done ashtanga and seem to know what you are doing, the teacher will assume that you have done some ashtanga and with that comes the assumption that you are used to deep adjustments.
Although I understand that some people have issues with touching, I come from the mindset that adjustments are part of the practice and part of the teaching. You convey energy through the touch--healing energy. You can convey things that can't be conveyed verbally. And, most importantly, a major part of the practice is making connections, making unions. You have to learn to get over the no touching issue, because we have to learn to connect and drop our boundaries. We are not separate from each other. We are one. And if you are constantly reinforcing the boundaries, you are not allowing yourself the freedom to be at one with other people. Letting go can be scary and dangerous but it is that that we find our freedom. Furthermore, you have to be able to connect with everybody, not just Mr. Jois or Mr. Iyengar because they are so great but with everyone in your life because that is true yoga. I'm not saying you should let people snap your back. I'm saying that you have to drop the boundaries and allow people in and make connections. That is how we heal ourselves, by getting closer to people, by getting closer to the oneness. Not by separating ourselves from each other and deepening the divide.
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| zoebird - 2005-11-22 8:43 AM
what does 'rise through the ranks' mean, practically speaking? There are teachers who are more experienced and less 'famous' than seane corn, some who are even in the same age group. There are teachers who are just as knowledgeable but aren't gracing covers of magazines because they aren't as photogenic. I think that one of the problems with this idea is that it falls into the idea of celebrity--that celebrity somehow makes someone a good or appropriate teacher who has the 'right' to touch anyone.
It's just a saying.
If someone, Seane Corn or whoever, consistently draws many supporters to their workshops then that person is doing something right in addition to not hurting people. Teaching is not just about doing - it's also about not doing, and communication and confidence and time management and crowd management...etc....
Look, no yoga instructor is going to be able to please everyone all the time. It's best to avoid hurting people, however.
I used to teach yoga in my 20s. I was hired because I was good at doing yoga. That does not a good yoga teacher make. I don't think being 45 or 75 years old necessarily makes one a good instructor. However, that 45+ year old will be more cautious with their students on the sheer fact that, more than likely, that 45+ year old has had some kind of pain, related to strain/yoga/athletics/sleeping funny/being overworked/repetitive stress/surgery.... and will have that experience tucked away in their consciousness when they teach class.
Now, being 34 y.o., I'm glad I had the opportunity to teach. I think all young, new teachers should be given the opportunity to teach. That's great. The world could use more yoga classes. But, even university professors start off as TAs before "rising to the ranks" in academia.
Maybe I take yoga too seriously but I see the applications of yoga as real physical therapy for patients. There will need to be a more sensible and realistic attitude from instructors for this to ever happen. I appreciate yoga.com so much because it draws a more serious yoga practitioner. And, I have to say, I am blown away at some of the excellent instructors we have here at our finger tips! |
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| In reference to YG's last paragraph, I do agree very much in concept although I struggle with it in practice. I guess that was a better way of putting what I meant by trying to work through my uncomfortable feelings about being touched & adjusted. I don't WANT to feel this way, I want to be close to people and not jump out of my skin when they touch me (including stuff outside of class, like friendly hugs). So I sort of look at it the same way as doing a pose that I hate because it challenges me. It's a way to play my emotional edge, sort of.
What is the overall opinion on "adjustments" during savasana? The way I learned is it's not just a relaxation, it's a time for your muscles to fully integrate everything that happened in class (in my TT, we even did savasana after lecture classes to let our minds integrate the new info). Also it is an actual asana that involves stillness of the body and mind. That's one reason why I don't think the shoulder and foot massages some teachers do are very appropriate for savasana. Not just because I don't like it. It's one thing to adjust a pose so I feel it more deeply or modify it so it will work for my body. That doesn't seem to apply in savasana.
With one caveat - if people are having lower back troubles, offering a blanket for underneath the knees is sometimes helpful. And gently laying a blanket over someone so they don't lose too much heat is okay. Okay, two caveats. |
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| seeing as seane corn was a teen in the late 80s (according to the bio on her web site)--i doubt she's older than you are. so, i don't think that she necessarily has the experience that you're speaking of regarding a 45+ year old than you do or someone my age (29) or younger does either. That is not to say, though, that we haven't worked with or experienced pain, suffering, or whatever else either, though.
but that's neither here nor there. just because a lot of people are attracted doesn't per se mean that that teacher has carte blanche to touch people, or that people (students) should simply allow it--against their own feelings and judgement--because other people are at that workshop. As someone else mentioned, i know nationally known and internationally known teachers who had 'risen up the ranks' and still did injurious assists or sexually touched certain students.
thus, regardless of who the teacher is, how well known they are, or how highly one thinks of them, one should not simply allow himself/herself to be touched if s/he does not want to be touched just because that teacher is somehow 'arrived' at some position of authority. i think it is really appropriate to say "no, seane corn, i would prefer not to have assists." and i bet that she would be cool with that, and had given a great instruction that would have done the work of the touch. This is also part of being a good teacher--but largely, it's important to be a good student and communicate with the teacher whether or not one wants to be touched.
i, too, am interested in the physical-therapeutic applications of yoga for my clients. i work with many clients who have various back pains, and i'm also starting to work in a physical therapists office teaching seniors and other special-needs clients. i certainly take this very seriously and i also take the issue of touch very seriosly when working with my clients. When working from a physical-therapeutic standpoint, i often find that gentle guiding assists with lots of encouragement and verbal instruction--as well as excellent use of props--works very well.
could you expand on your ideas related to this idea that you brought out: "There will need to be a more sensible and realistic attitude from instructors for this to ever happen." what practical approach should a teacher who is going into therapeutic applications take? |
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| Just for the record, according to an interview w/ Ms. Corn in a recent magazine (I think it was Women's Health but don't hold me to that) she is 39 yrs old. Which means nothing one way or the other! Except that she looks awesome - healthy habits AND good genes, I imagine. 
Edited by jeansyoga 2005-11-22 2:51 PM
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Expert Yogi
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Location: right where I'm supposed to be | I think she is very attractive. Good genes for sure!!!!!
Mish |
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| I am kind of taking an issue with all the talk (from several people, on this thread and others - not trying to single anyone out) of expecting people to be "good students" and always be upfront and forthcoming with a teacher about everything that is going on with them. This is our JOB. They are paying US. We have to be sensitive to their needs and not assume they are obligated to open a dialogue about what is going on with their bodies today. New students don't know this! And many are wary because they don't know what to expect out of a yoga class. They're not going to tell you that they were raped, or they're having their period, or that they were in a car accident 15 years ago that never bothered them until they did that pose. It would be awesome if everyone felt fine marching right up to say "I'm having a rough period, so I'm not going upside down today," but most will just hide in the corner and pray not to be noticed. I've actually told teachers that before class, but it's because I have done this long enough that I know she'll want to know that. 10 yrs ago, it never would have occurred to me.
I would prefer if an adjustment is to go beyond a one-finger (or one-toe) guide, a teacher would whisper "Is it okay if I touch you?" before going further. That allows the teacher to open the dialogue, it doesn't obligate the student to intuit that the teacher is about to touch and needs to know if you'll want that or not. It also lets the student know that they are empowered, that their body is a sacred space, and that nobody has the right to touch it without permission. |
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| i agree with you jean in regards to the teacher also opening up the dialogue before going into a deeper assist. i mentioned that before--as well as my method. i also generally ask people questions as i see things in their bodies, even if they are new.
i'll ask questions such as--your hips look tight, do you have an injury or anything i need to be aware of? it's right in that persons space, it's whispered, and a simple yes or no will do and then i'll offer suggestions to modify or change the pose to something that may be more functional for that person's body.
i cannot read minds, nor can i intuit histories. this doesn't mean i need to know everything (like whether or not a student was raped or whatever), but i do need to know enough. it's ok to say 'no assists please' as the teacher walks by, or to ask them to stop assisting if s/he doesn't ask if an assist is ok.
But, i also completely agree that before going into a deep or more than two-finger assist a teacher should ask if it's ok, and if there's anything that s/he needs to know about regarding the body (like mishoga's pelvic issue--which isn't necessary to know before the class, unless it impacts everything, but is definately need-to-know before going into the assist that she described!). I can't emphasize this part enough either.
really, it does need to be a dialogue. teachers need to ask--students also need to tell. When the teacher isn't asking, then there's a problem. If the student isn't telling, then there's a problem. As both a student and a teacher, i try to work on both of these ends. |
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| I'm with Jean on the approach to touching for adjustments if one's teaching style is to do so (In a purest form, I certainly concur with Beloved Brother Neel that if one were proficient enough as were the students, touching would not be necessary). However, most of us practice & teach Western Yoga. Seems if were attending classes where I didn't know a particular teacher's demeanor, I certainly wouldn't feel offended much less violated if I were touched to be aligned--by showing up at that class and signing any newbie paperwork, I kind of am agreeing to that teacher's style and if it becomes something I'm not comfortable with, I need to take the personal responsibility to say so. In any case, I wouldn't find it something so terrible, just a teacher trying to do their job. |
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| Finally, someone put it into plain English - thank you, Jeansyoga. It really is the yoga instructor's responsibility to ascertain client/patient info instead of the student having to come to class armed with the zillions of possiblities that could happen during in a class if the instructor presses here or lifts there.
Anyway, everyone has good and valid points on this topic but we ultimately have to make decisions we feel comfortable with.
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| jeansyoga - 2005-11-22 3:09 PMI am kind of taking an issue with all the talk (from several people, on this thread and others - not trying to single anyone out) of expecting people to be "good students" and always be upfront and forthcoming with a teacher about everything that is going on with them.
I think people have a responsibility to take charge of their lives to the best of their ability to do so. Part of that involves direct, honest,and polite communication with the people around them, including their teachers. IIRC, most of the posts made so far have been with from students taking issue with various adjustments made by teachers, instead of the other way around.
If it had been the teachers saying, when I do X, I find that students leave, or I've been trying Y, and can't seem to get any feedback, what do you think, I'd also advise them to speak with their students.
Communication is a two way street, right now it appears to be the students that are voicing issues on the forum.
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| Of course communication is a two way street, but this isn't an ideal world. This is where we are. Certainly students should feel comfortable enough in any studio or classroom to state their discomfort with adjustments or address any injury with an instructor. AFter practicing for a couple of years now I have no problem speaking up with an injury or area that needs special attention, but as a newbie I kept to myself like someone else here said, hanging out in the corner hoping to be ignored. I think it's safe to say that most newcomers don't understand the way that subtle movements can trigger strong reactions whether it is physical or emotional. In that regard it is absolutely the responsibility of the teacher to approach the student and clarify what is appropriate. One teacher I have asks EVERY single time before she does any adjustments on me despite my having attended her class for 3 months and my love of adjustments. I love that she does that - she sees most of us for 1.5 hours a week so what does she know from our lives? Very little, but as the teacher she takes responsibility for creating an environment that provides students a chance to take responsibility for their own bodies and needs. Pretty cool.  |
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Expert Yogi
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| We adjust savasana for people who are totally out of whack (head sideways etc.) and for those who ask for help (they bend their knees to say "help") but after the first couple of minutes we stop adjusting. There are things to be learned from a well adjusted savasana and things to learn from a "bad" one. I always tell people I am about to touch them for savasana adjustments since a startled student will not be able to relax!  |
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| My only experience with savasana adjustments (aside from getting a warm blanket now and then) was this knucklehead Yogafit teacher. Before I get the Yogafit people riled up, she had only done the one weekend and that was her ONLY exposure to yoga - the YMCA wanted a yoga class and she was available during the weekend the training was held. I know how it feels to be bullied by the boss at this Y so I can't fault her too much for teaching when she shouldn't have been.
Anyway, she came around the room and (I can only assume she did this to everybody) wrapped a towel around my head TIGHTLY then pressed it into my eyes, like a blindfold. Then she proceeded to "massage" my neck in a tight chokehold, and the fronts of my shoulders, as obviously the backs of my shoulders were on the floor. As those of you with big hooters know (esp. over age 30), the "sisters" tend to slide north when you lay on your back in a sports bra, so it felt like she was feeling me up! AAACKKK!!!!! She gave no warning this would happen, and it was a good 5 minutes into the savasana. Since I work with her as a fellow YMCA teacher, I just didn't feel right going "Cut it out Wendy, GEEZ!!"
Not that there's anything wrong with being blindfolded and felt up, but not during savasana!  |
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Expert Yogi
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| Sweetie - you have GOT to get on a plane to see your husband soon! |
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| First, you needed to set boundaries firmly (and I am someone who struggles with this and still learning too!) ...but it is NOT needed to push anyone into a yoga asana EVER. The body will do what it can - it should NEVER be assisted.
mishoga - 2005-11-21 10:52 AM
I went away this weekend with my girlfriends to this spa. I go once a year and I'm familiar with the Yoga teachers there (who I like a lot ). Saturday I wanted to take a Asthanga class taught by this woman Tracy but she was away so this other girl came in. I figured why leave, I'm here to practice and love trying out new instructors so I stayed for the class.
She was in her mid twenties and very nice but a hands on teacher. Well she had me and one other student (who was also an instructor ) in pigeon's pose (full extension ). My hips are always a little off the floor because I broke my pelvic bone in my early twenties. She came from behind me and started to pull my hips back from the creases. That didn't bother me so much. She then proceeded to place both of her knees on my lower back (sacrum ) and place all her wt to take me down further into the pose. I told her my hips will not drop any further without strain. She stayed there placing her wt down on me. I should have said something. I was so passive (and I have personal space issues with being touched too ).
Well, guess what? My back is really hurting. Been hurting for two days now. I am so tempted to call the spa and mention this to her superiors. What would you do? 
I really and not fond of hands on. For all who practice touch alignment, how do you know when to not push further.
Mishy |
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| I'm with Glenda--think Jean is about to explode...and where does Wendy teach...been awhile since I was felt up. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Jean is off to do a bit of re-organizing and then will go to see her hubby quite soon. I'll bet she is feeling much calmer when she returns  |
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| tourist - 2005-11-23 7:05 PMJean is off to do a bit of re-organizing and then will go to see her hubby quite soon. I'll bet she is feeling much calmer when she returns
He he he he 
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| The issue here isn't touch, it's boundaries.
If the student does not set clear boundaries with a teacher, it needs to be done asap.
It is also needed to state that the yoga teacher does not "heal" but should be teaching the student to use the tools of yoga to heal themself. I personally feel that anything "assisted" in yoga is pretty much moot to the student. If the student doesn't do it themself, they are not really DOING it themself, kabeesh?
As far as boundaries, the issue is to be firm and stand by your word. If you said that you didn't want to be touched, that is it. No means no.
I personally have worked with a myriad of clients over many, many years - and in yoga - there is never a reason to touch anyone. Never. You can show someone something, you can guide them - but you need not touch them. If someone has limited communication skills, yes, touch may be the way to tactile teach. It isn't wrong, but it certainly isn't smart in a day and age where the reality is - many people will silently stew over your sometimes careing touch.
I think a lot of people assume that because someone is popular (the Yoga Stars on DVDs and workshop circuits) that they know more. I feel this is a farce. First, the only reason why these people are "stars" and such is because most of us "follow" ---ie, if x is popular we feel they must be pretty **** good.
Let's get real - some of us have paid or are willing to pay BIG BUCK to say we "studied with" someone at some lame three hour workshop - where 80% was lecture and sales of books and such.
This to me, is marketable, and sometimes valid - but to meet and mix with each the other here, free - is probably a much more enlightening path on many levels - including wallet.
Point here? Teachers of any age or demographic - even new teachers - can add - or can delete some force from your life.
If you find someone and feel it is or is not working for you to continue this relationship - cut ties or work it out so that it DOES work for you. I think to say that someone has nothing to offer because he or she is 25, 15 or even 5 --is catty and small minded. In this "yogic thinking" we all should have, where is the acceptence???? Why are we gullible to think that because someone has lived x number of years or practiced yoga their way for x years, that this makes them BETTER?????
I can learn as much from watching a fruit fly as I can from watching an old turtle; maybe more.
I also would not state that the fly is any more or less important in the scheme of life than the turtle; they both offer our world something different.
Boundaries are important, and maybe this is a part of what your practice is teaching you right now |
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| By law, a health care professional MUST have consent to touch.
By law, an educator must have consent to touch.
We may not fall into either, but we actually overlap both and it would be ethical and quite smart legally, if we teachers don't assume our students deserve or expect anything but high professional standards from us. And that includes consent to touch.
Additionally - people need not ever tell us their issues to be honest with you. We do not NEED to know if someone was raped and so on. It makes OUR job easier to know this but it is not what yoga is about.
What yoga is about as a teacher, is making blanket statements of responsibility, such as reminding before a posture that if you are less than three days in menses, you should refrain...
We may state even to the class that emotional issues may surface.
It's really none of our business what is going on with the clients unless THEY come to us and WANT to share.
It's not our yoga journey; it's theirs. We are just showing them tools to use for their own journey. We are not driving them on their journey. |
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Expert Yogi
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| michele - of course you are right and there is no absolute need to touch. But it does make the point more easily and can speed up the learning. In Iyengar we make adjustments and then instruct the student to keep the new position on their own as much as they can. So if we use a belt to lift the hips in down dog, we ease off the belt and say, "now you hold it." So this way the student has some muscle memory the next time they do the pose. I have had some big "aha" moments from physical adjustments so I feel they are valid. That said, I am selective about who and how I touch, for sure. |
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| booga - 2005-11-26 4:57 PM
I personally have worked with a myriad of clients over many, many years - and in yoga - there is never a reason to touch anyone. Never.
I find blanket statements like this rather unhelpful. It presupposes that touching is somehow bad. It speaks more to your own issues and biases, Booga. You are entitled to your opinions, but taking a hard stance against touching people seems shortsighted.
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Very upset with a teacher
