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| Bruce, I'm hoping you can help me out here. I expected to be sore the first week of Bikram and by golly I was!! After the first week, my hamstrings stopped hurting and I thought I had passed the curve. Lately(for the last two weeks), the muscles in my upper body have been screaming the day after Bikram......I'm tired of being sore, does it ever end?? How long does it take for the body to become used to Bikram yoga? |
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| Tina Tina, I hate to be the bad news messenger but I am ALWAYS sore after practice. My "made-of-rubber" teacher tells me it's because I keep trying to excel; I think it's because when I'm not at class, I forget yoga exists and revert to my old ways. I think Christine has mentioned in other threads that she's an avid supporter of Nuprin--I've found the new 8-hour Tylenol to be a delightful drug of choice. You know too, if we were longer practitioners, the aches may subside; however, I know my teacher often tries something silly and complains of hurting herself--such is life I think AND misery loves company you know so let's just all meet here and mutually whine.
Tibard - 2004-03-16 9:17 AM
Bruce, I'm hoping you can help me out here. I expected to be sore the first week of Bikram and by golly I was!! After the first week, my hamstrings stopped hurting and I thought I had passed the curve. Lately(for the last two weeks), the muscles in my upper body have been screaming the day after Bikram......I'm tired of being sore, does it ever end?? How long does it take for the body to become used to Bikram yoga? |
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| Hi Tibard,
I'm sure Bruce will respond but I thought I would jump in and offer my 2 cents worth as well. He and I have a similar experience level with Bikram.
First, keep in mind that there is no quick and simple answer to your question because we all have different body types, exercise experience, and tolerance for pain or soreness.
That brings me to my next point which is that it is important for you to "listen" to your own body and determine if what you are feeling is indeed just muscle soreness or actual pain. If it's pain, you should back off from whatever is causing it. Pay especially close attention to your back and knees.
You said you felt soreness in your upper body so I will assume that it is muscle soreness from stretching your muscles in certain postures beyond what those muscles are accustomed to. One could say that yes, it will go away eventually but the length of time could vary a great deal from one person to the next.
My elbow muscles were sore for several weeks when I first started Bikram from the part of the Locust where you have your arms under your body. To attempt that posture at all will probably make most people sore in the beginning because just having your arms in that position is something most people aren't used to.
However, in many of the postures, you could attempt them in a slow and gradual enough manner that you may never experience any soreness at all and still make progress over time. Or, you could be continually challenging yourself to go farther and deeper into postures and virtually be sore all the time!
So, to cut to the chase, you can most likely expect some soreness, most of which will go away over time, but you have a lot of control over how sore you get because it's directly related to how hard, how far, how fast you push yourself.  |
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| Looks like Bruce just beat me to the punch but as you can see from both of our responses, there is a great deal of variety. I tend to "baby" myself, probably too much, so I hardly ever get sore but my progress is most likely slower. But, I have made a great deal of improvement over time (about 6 months now).  |
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| Bruce, Kathy,thank you both for your replies. I never think I'm pushing myself in class but that heat kinda lulls you into a false sense of comfort. Because of my soreness, I've started slacking off a bit in attendence. Both this week and last, I'm attending 2 sessions when I usually attend three. I feel bad about it, but my body is talkin' to me.....and it's not pretty. Sheesh, talk about Bikram backlash.....
By the way....I hate Locust.....no matter which way you cut it, that pose is not natural and my body knows it  |
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| Funny in that locust is my best asana--I swear my arms are deformed as twisting them 180 degrees and under me doesn't bother me. I've written in another thread that the "easy" ones are just impossible for me--the freaking half moon position when you go down front? "Grab your heels"--fagitabout it! I just doen't understand/feel how it's possible--I squatted down like an idiot, nearly falling forward and cannot comprehend HOW to get my hands under my heels.
Tibard - 2004-03-16 5:34 PM
Bruce, Kathy,thank you both for your replies. I never think I'm pushing myself in class but that heat kinda lulls you into a false sense of comfort. Because of my soreness, I've started slacking off a bit in attendence. Both this week and last, I'm attending 2 sessions when I usually attend three. I feel bad about it, but my body is talkin' to me.....and it's not pretty. Sheesh, talk about Bikram backlash.....
By the way....I hate Locust.....no matter which way you cut it, that pose is not natural and my body knows it |
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| HA! I modify on that one. I use the towel I'm standing on and pull that up behind my feet. My elbows fit behind my legs if I modify. I figure my hands will eventully works themselves down to my feet. |
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| You can reach clear to the towel behind you??!! That's even a trick for me. **** it, I'm getting frustrated again...OK, breathe....
Tibard - 2004-03-16 7:22 PM
HA! I modify on that one. I use the towel I'm standing on and pull that up behind my feet. My elbows fit behind my legs if I modify. I figure my hands will eventully works themselves down to my feet. |
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| Looks like we each have our strengths in Bikram poses don't we? I'll keep working on my locust...maybe one day I'll come to like it. |
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| Hey Bruce --
Have you ever tried reaching a little further up on the ankles or calves to get those elbows back a little more? Try that and see how it feels.
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| I have Gwyn cand just get to my ankles but no grip to "sandwich," and just kinda seem to squat there.
My Cats' Mom - 2004-03-16 10:27 PM
Hey Bruce --
Have you ever tried reaching a little further up on the ankles or calves to get those elbows back a little more? Try that and see how it feels.
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| Hello y'all-
Bruce- just squatting there with the heavy head hanging down loose - letting gravity help stretch you- chest and belly together is ok and actually safer and more beneficial overall to your situation than this pulling with the towel as you describe.
In the 26- these forward bending postures are the riskiest of all for possibility of injury.
Your towel pulling is forcing the hamstrings and your spine as you try to stretch them more than you probably should right now- AND your poor ole shoulders are never going open like this.
(your standing bow is suffering because of your constant shoulder contraction)
I agree with Gwyn-
Here's what I would tell you if you were in my class:
"hands to feet pose"
bend your knees glue your chest and belly together,
wrap your arms around your legs- elbows as close to behind the calves (thighs?) as possible.
take the fingers as close to the heels as possible down the legs (ankles? calves?)
let the head hang down
draw the shoulders away from the ears by lifting them up toward the ceiling (you are upside down- this does makes sense)
remember: CHEST AND BELLY GLUED TOGETHER- pull the belly button to the spine and exhale nicely and fully while in the forward bend- relaxing the lower back by pulling in the abs is essential to safely do this spine stretch.
DROP your head- let the head hang down
RELAX YOUR NECK_ LIFT YOUR SHOULDERS. (this is the head ache and migraine helper part)
remember- intense compression of the internal organs is the magic of forward bending that happens while we attach ourselves to our hamstrings and trying to straighten our legs. It's all happening! It's ok... just squat there and squeeze and breathe.
It's not about 'feeling like' you are doing something.
If you are as stiff as you describe-
just being there-going back again and again giving it your best that day is
BIG TIME 'doing something'.
Shanti.
Darla
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| That all makes sense and is what I read in Bikram's book and what my teachers tell me. But, after 7 months, it just beems I should be making a bit of progress...an iota...a smidge...something...just never gets any better. I do keep going and trying though. Thanks so much for the description Darla.
miss dee - 2004-03-17 8:06 AM
Hello y'all-
Bruce- just squatting there with the heavy head hanging down loose - letting gravity help stretch you- chest and belly together is ok and actually safer and more beneficial overall to your situation than this pulling with the towel as you describe.
In the 26- these forward bending postures are the riskiest of all for possibility of injury.
Your towel pulling is forcing the hamstrings and your spine as you try to stretch them more than you probably should right now- AND your poor ole shoulders are never going open like this.
(your standing bow is suffering because of your constant shoulder contraction)
I agree with Gwyn-
Here's what I would tell you if you were in my class:
"hands to feet pose"
bend your knees glue your chest and belly together,
wrap your arms around your legs- elbows as close to behind the calves (thighs?) as possible.
take the fingers as close to the heels as possible down the legs (ankles? calves?)
let the head hang down
draw the shoulders away from the ears by lifting them up toward the ceiling (you are upside down- this does makes sense)
remember: CHEST AND BELLY GLUED TOGETHER- pull the belly button to the spine and exhale nicely and fully while in the forward bend- relaxing the lower back by pulling in the abs is essential to safely do this spine stretch.
DROP your head- let the head hang down
RELAX YOUR NECK_ LIFT YOUR SHOULDERS. (this is the head ache and migraine helper part)
remember- intense compression of the internal organs is the magic of forward bending that happens while we attach ourselves to our hamstrings and trying to straighten our legs. It's all happening! It's ok... just squat there and squeeze and breathe.
It's not about 'feeling like' you are doing something.
If you are as stiff as you describe-
just being there-going back again and again giving it your best that day is
BIG TIME 'doing something'.
Shanti.
Darla
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| Exactly, Darla.
Bruce, 7 months is not that long to have been practicing. I say drop your expectations of yourself and just enjoy moving. If you keep pushing yourself (i.e. pulling on that towel) because you think you should be somewhere you are not, you are going to hurt yourself (probably your lower back) and then where will you be? Probably in a place of learning but injury is not a very fun way to learn. And then you might say, "That Bikram yoga is so bad for you!" 
One of my favorite analogies for playing your edges: Think of your edge as the edge of a cliff that overlooks some beautiful scenery. You want to get close to the edge to see the beauty but not so close to the edge that you fall off. If you don't push yourself a little, you miss out on the beauty but if you push too much, ouch.
You may never straighten your legs in forward bending. Not ever. But then again, you may.  |
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| I agree with Dee.
The SPLIT SECOND you let your torso come off your thighs you shoot the stretch into your lower back and that is NOT where you want it to be.
Think about standing with your legs straight, hanging your head over with your hands dangling towards the floor. With that hunch in the spine, nothing is happening in the legs. If your torso is on the thighs, it's straight. Let it come up? Instant hunch.
Although the words are different between traditions, in this instance the targeted stretch and method of getting there are the same.
And remember: The floor, your toes, the heels, whatever is down there that has you driven to touch it? It'll be there when your body is ready.
Christine |
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| Hang in there Bruce! I know what you mean about feeling like you aren't making any progress at all in certain asanas, but then one day, all of a sudden, you do move a fraction of an inch further. I just recently have been able to completely straighten my legs in that one for just a second or so with the chest/belly to thigh and head to shins connections. Whatever you do, DON"T do this  !! Keep a positive attitude and focus on the progress that you have made since starting. I'm sure that you, like me, have made a HUGE amount of progress since you started. |
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| Many thanks ladies--appreciate the explanations--I'll be running them thru my mind this eveing at practice ...until it's Guiness time...it IS St. Paddy's Day ya know (like I need an excuse to do Guiness).. |
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| I thought of something.
When you're in this pose, think chin to shin, not forehead to shin. That also keeps the spine straight, isolating it into the legs more. It also protects the lumbar area from hyperextension, believe it or not.
Kathy Ann has an excellent point. We seldom see progress in ourselves. It has to do with that harsh personal judgement and the comparisons we make where we're the ones who lose the internal competitions.
I've been practicing for years. Some days I feel so defeated, because my upper back is so incredibly tight. My teacher thought it was congenital until I showed her photos of my gymnastics days. Anyway, I was at a teacher training recently where there were people I hadn't seen in a year or two. There's a teacher training junkie group around here.  Anyway, someone said, "Christine, your practice has really grown! Your backbends are opening up so much more!"
After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I thanked her and wished I could see it in myself.
So don't dispair. Each time you do a pose, don't wish for more. Practice santosha (contentment) by findning something you enjoy or think is good about every pose you do. Even if it's something as simple as not pressing your tongue against the roof of your mouth, not pursing your lips, or just remembering to breathe.
If anything, we can be grateful and find joy in the fact that we have yoga in our lives -- and are physically able to get there to do it. As Pattabhi says, "Practice. In time, all things will come."
Christine |
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| Thanks all,
I guess I need to drop that towel action during that forward head to knee pose. Your explanations were incredibly detailed and very helpful. No soreness today so I'm off to Bikram class tonight to try your suggestions. Have I mentioned I love this website? Your support is most appreciated!!
Thanks again,
Tibard |
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| Thanks from me too to Christine for that pointer about "chin to shin" instead of "forehead to chin". I will give that a try next time.
Last night, Marco (instructor) gave us a pointer for Camel. He said most of us were pushing our hips foreward before dropping our heads back (which is what I believe the other instructors have always told us). He suggested that we don't push our hips foreward first but to lengthen our spines and then drop our heads and curve back as we do in the standing back bend. Marco is a bit of a maverick, often giving us advice which differs a bit from the "dialogue", which I think is great since I have always had a rebellious streak in my nature. |
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| I'm willing to bet, Kathy Ann, that Marco has at least experienced if not taken other forms of yoga. I realize for some reason outside experience is often considered heresy in the Bikram world, but frankly they're safer teachers. There are a lot of what I call "yoga party tricks" to optimally align the body, which makes it easier and safer on the joints to get into yoga asanas. Bikram doesn't teach them to their teachers, but as he says, "They'll either get it or they won't."
Marco is correct in his instruction. Rather than jamming the edges of that "string of pearls" together as you bend, stretch them out making space between the vertebrae. Then, with that distance, they can move more freely to bend with less crunch and strain. Try that in all your backbending.
In cobra, think about moving the chest forward by pulling the hands backwards against the floor. Then begin to lift the spine, letting the head come up last. Think of the back of the head lifting rather than the forehead. At the last minute, look up and forward, vs. flipping the head backwards, jamming it into the traps to look at the ceiling. As a matter of fact, as you're pulling the hands backwards, think of relaxing your butt and traps at the same time. You'll go an inch or so more into the arch.
In Rabbit? Lift yourself up to curve the crown of your head down. Literally sit up! Then lift your bottom off your heels, put your head down, THEN begin to lower the bottom. (Don't forget not to let your heels fall out; that's cheating!)
Anyway, this is something other traditions practice because it's safer on the vertebrae, particularly if someone has herniated or ruptured disks. Making space in the joints also makes movement easier.
Give it a shot and see what you think. Do it with Marco. And privately asked him where he's studied before. I'd be interested to hear where he picked up his non-Bikram ques.
Christine |
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| Hello again all-
regarding "Marco's instruction" in camel
thank god for this "maverick" amongst all the dialogue! if he knows anything at all about the body and yoga (beyond lock the f*$#ing knee) he's probably the best teacher in the studio. Anyway...
if you remember to lift the chest up in back bends lifting heart center skyward- this will take care of the jamming the lower back up. it will also help the neck hold the heavy head more comfortably and keep any cervical spine jam ups from happening.
i usually say:
backbending is easy: just 3 parts
1.squeeze your butt and push your hips forward
2. INHALE LIFT your chest skyward
3. gently relax the neck head and shoulders back-
I usually hear myself say "lift your chest" in my back bending instruction somewhere between 3 and 10,000 times per set.
from there of course you go into camel or the standing back bend work-
In my opinion-it is better in camel to hold the hands at the hips and support the lower back until the flexibility is there- instead of LEEEAAANING back to get the heels. The LEAN is what starts to jam the spine all up as you start to desperately search for your foundation and support AKA your heels in camel. Once you get hold of the feet though- lock your elbows and PUSH down on your heels to lift the chest higher and to take the hips further.
For standing backbends: chest up and look as far back as possible. NO LEANING! if you lean back you will certainly feel like you will fall over- and you might! Lift your chest up- knees straight look back and lift - let the arms go back too. chest lifted, lift the chest...
see? ...there i go again.
Darla
p.s. You know guys--these back bending postures are teeming with metaphysical benefits.
the heart - throat and 3rd eye chakras open and speed up in backbending. to reap these benefits you also must keep the chest lifted so the shakti (energy) can flow with- out constriction through the subtle spine. this is important! this physical prep for savasana/meditation is what yoga is all about.
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| ooohh....
christine i dig your cobra instructions- cant wait to spring that on 'em tonight!
the rabbit however has me a little confused... you said "lower the bottom" ?
i would like to discuss rabbit further... including but not limited to the whole forehead to knees thing.
shall we start a new rabitt thread?
does anyone know how to spell it?
darla
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| Sasasana.
Dee, the only thing I'd suggest you think about in your really good Camel (Ustrasana) instructions, is to not squeeze the butt. There should be sterem and sukhum (strength and ease) in asanas, and if one is squeeze anything, it does block energy.
Instead, ask them to spread their toes out wide. Spreading the little toe out activates the peronial muscle, which translates up the leg, engaging the ITB, which helps stableize the hips. No squeezing necessary.
Plus, once you're backbending in any of these asana, if you're squeezing your butt together, you're closing the pelvis. This gives the tailbone no place to go and defeats the purpose off all that good elongation: It jams up the lower back.
Give 'er a try. And start a new thread.
Christine |
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| Thanks Darla and Christine for all the good suggestions. I will experiment a bit and see what happens.
I was just thinking it would be cool to have various threads going on some of the different asanas so we could share experiences, progress, etc. and there you go with your "Rabbit" thread! Excellent! |
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Still sore after Bikram
