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Yoga and Jesus Christ
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Bay Guy
Posted 2005-04-15 9:47 PM (#22097 - in reply to #22093)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ



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Bowing to a saint, such as Jesus or Patanjali, would not offend a yogi.

But I'm still curious to understand the nuance of Elson's comment about Catholics.

[BTW...you should read up on the connection of Patanjali to Adishesha.]

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elson
Posted 2005-04-19 4:40 AM (#22351 - in reply to #4970)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ


Ahh. Good questions. Sorry for the ambiguity.

HotYogi - Yes, "my" God is in fact the real, true, and absolute God, and since He rejects all other conceptions of God as false, then that is what they are. And yes, if you want to get right down to it, those people who my God does not save are on a one-way trip to Hell. But don't worry - if my God deosn't exist, then you have nothing to worry about!

The reason that I do not chant certain things is instructive. First, many chants contain Buddhist philosophy or religious statements that I disagree with, and so I see no need to say them.

I don't make a habit of saying "white people are better than black people" because it is incorrect. Also, it might hurt the feelings of a black person. Finally, it casts dishonor on the reputation of black people, and might cause some unsophisticated person to think less of black folks, just because I said it. It would be worse if someone who has come to respect my ways and thinking hears me say it, because my standing adds weight to the disparagement.

Now if I chant something to the effect of "you are God and I am God," then I am saying something that I believe is false - I am, in fact, lying, because I am deliberately saying something that I know to be wrong. You are not God, and I am most definitely not God. This statement is a deadly insult to the real, absolute, eternal, living God, who is, and was, and is to come. I do not wish to hurt his feelings in this way, for He is my Beloved! Nor am I willing to cast dishonor on his Name, for unto Him is due all honor and praise and glory. And it is even worse if someone hears me saying this, and assumes that Christians are ok with the whole "we are God" thing. So anyway, that was my point :-). I hope that the analogy was not too clumsy.

Bay Guy :-)
Yes, MrD has the right of it. Catholics often ask people of strong faith to help or join them in asking God for something. Often this is a dead relative whose faith they admire, or an official hero of the Church (an official Saint), or even one of the most holy folk - Mary or Joseph. now, this seems silly, but Xtns believe that dead Xtns are right now in the presense of God, so if Uncle Fred was in tight with God, and he's probably got a good seat at the heavenly banquet, and he can hear/see/sense your prayers, why not ask him to put in a good work with the Father??

NonCatholic Xtns do not pray to dead people. Not because they are dead, because "dead" just means "doesn't live here anymore," but because they don't see any need. We go directly to Jesus, and speak through Him to the Father.

Catholics grant special status to some people in the past - the saints & such - and Protestants think that they waste praise on them that should be given to the Father. Catholics could make the case that we owe honor to the heros of the faith, and that if we spent a little more time recognising their accomplishments and strengths, we might lead holier lives. They might be right :-).

So the whole mindset is slightly different in this area. I think that a Catholic might more easily stray from the right path with chanting, but I could be wrong. If there are any catechists out there, I'm sure they will let me know :-).

It was late, and the remark was not well thought out, and I apologise if I offended any of my Catholic brothers or confused anybody.
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FamousLadyJane
Posted 2005-04-19 9:07 AM (#22361 - in reply to #4970)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ


Just a question Elson. How come you keep saying "my" God? IF he is the 'one true God', isn't he everyone's god then? And if you are using that for purposes of this discusion, then isn't it false advertising, like the white vs. black people example in your post? Im just confused on the context you are saying things.

Thankyou.

Edited by FamousLadyJane 2005-04-19 9:09 AM
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HotYogi
Posted 2005-04-19 1:51 PM (#22386 - in reply to #22351)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ


HotYogi - Yes, "my" God is in fact the real, true, and absolute God, and since He rejects all other conceptions of God as false, then that is what they are. And yes, if you want to get right down to it, those people who my God does not save are on a one-way trip to Hell. But don't worry - if my God deosn't exist, then you have nothing to worry about!

Elson:

Ok, you are definitely entitled to your belief than that two-third's of humanity is on a one way trip to hell.

I beg to differ though. If your God is the one and true God and also the omniscient, omnipotent and benovolent God that you also claim that he is, then why would he let this happen? Why does one have to overtly accept your God to have a ticket to heaven? Also, if his son died on the cross to accept the sins of all humankind, then shouldn't everyone have a ticket to heaven, irrespective of whether they believe in your God or another version of God.

Also, how does it make you feel when you interact with people on a day to day basis knowing that a lot of them are bound for hell? Or maybe it doesn't matter since you believe that you have a one way ticket to paradise.

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elson
Posted 2005-04-21 4:23 PM (#22570 - in reply to #22361)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ


Hello Famous :-)

The Xtn understanding of God is radically different from that of Buddhism or the understanding of many other religions. I often speak of religious matters with people of different religions - sometimes people with a profound understanding of their conception of God. It seems easier to me in those cases to speak of _my_ understandig of God by saying "my God," and speak of their conception of God as "your God."

This tends to avoid worthless arguements such as whether or not Krishna (or whoever) was an avatar of God. If that is so in another religion, then I am not going to argue that it is not so in that religion - partly because I am not a serious student of that religion, and partly because it doesn't matter to me.

This just a way of speaking for me; one adopted occasionally in the bible by various prophets. My personal conviction, which I know to be true, is that my religion is as accurate an understanding of the actual God as is possible for humans to achieve. All other religions are false.

But my interest is in talking about my God, because I believe that through a mystical and miraculous process, my God used His words (which are hidden in my own words) to open the eyes of those that He has decided to save. For the others, it is only an internet forum, hopefully an interesting one :-).

So I hope that answers your question - I speak of God a my God to add clarity ot the conversation by making clear that I am not making statements about Allah (may his name be praised) or Shiva or the universal being or whatever.

Cheers....
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elson
Posted 2005-04-21 4:56 PM (#22575 - in reply to #22386)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ


Very good questions! Best I've heard all month!

And yes, we disagree on who's God is the real God, but then, my God told us that this would be so.

>> I beg to differ though. If your God is the one and true God and also the omniscient, omnipotent and benovolent God that you also claim that he is, then why would he let this happen?

Who said anything about benevolent? Seriously, in the end, all of this will work out, because my God is bringing forth a great good from all of this suffering. But my God is not benevolent in the sense of a permissive parent who lets his kids get away with anything they want to do. My God brings blessing and misfortune on the Xtn and nonXtn alike. Calimity and disaster and suffering are man's lot on this earth, for two reasons - these are the result of sin that man has unleashed on the world, and also because these are some of the tools that God uses to produce the people that He wants.

I have suffered much to bring my pincha to the point where I can focus on something other than not-falling-down while doing it. And I have far to go before pincha is a meditative and joyous expression of my heart. So, is this suffering bad?

In the same way, God has given me much suffering in the process of making me into a meditative and joyfull son to Him. I am trained and strengthened and refined by the suffering and the following triumphs and celebrations.

People who are not Xtns go through many fo the same trials and suffering, and some can use these things for their own good. And some do not.

>> Why does one have to overtly accept your God to have a ticket to heaven?
Those are the rules. Why should it be any different? What is your purpose on this earth? Any way you answer this question, you come up against a task or a purpose to fulfill, or something other than just pleasing the body and the senses. My God says that my work on this earth is to know Him more and become more like Him.

>> Also, if his son died on the cross to accept the sins of all humankind, then shouldn't everyone have a ticket to heaven, irrespective of whether they believe in your God or another version of God.

Your logic is, of course, correct. But the precedent is incorrect, Jesus did _not_ die on the cross to accept anything, or to do anything to the entire race. His work on & preceeding the cross was pretty complicated, but the simple version is that He died to save the people that He had chosen to become His. Not every single person, but all who would trust Him fo their salvation.

>> Also, how does it make you feel when you interact with people on a day to day basis knowing that a lot of them are bound for hell? Or maybe it doesn't matter since you believe that you have a one way ticket to paradise.

It makes me feel sad at times. It gives me strength to have these kinds of conversations with people who may have originally thought that I was ok, and then learned that I am a Jesus freak, and then held me in contempt. For some people, religion is so loaded with emotion/frustration/anger, that the mere mention of the name of Jesus uncenters them completely. But courage is a daughter of hope, so my hope gives me strength. And it helps that I enjoy philosophical conversation :-).

There isn't anything more that I can do for unbelievers than tell them about my God. Nobody can be argued into the Kingdom of Heaven. You can't force someone to believe, or pay them to believe, or trick them into believing. All you can do is speak the truth in love, and if God is going to save them at that time, then He will. Or He won't.

Why doesn't God save some people? As well ask why some people will not accept Him as their Master.

I have hope that the poor will be served, so I serve them. But there are still poor - more and more every day. And I have hope that the unsaved will be saved, so I serve them by telling them about my God.
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Bay Guy
Posted 2005-04-21 9:41 PM (#22610 - in reply to #22570)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ



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elson - 2005-04-21 4:23 PM


This just a way of speaking for me; one adopted occasionally in the bible by various prophets. My personal conviction, which I know to be true, is that my religion is as accurate an understanding of the actual God as is possible for humans to achieve. All other religions are false.

But my interest is in talking about my God, because I believe that through a mystical and miraculous process, my God used His words (which are hidden in my own words) to open the eyes of those that He has decided to save. For the others, it is only an internet forum, hopefully an interesting one :-).
.



Elson ---

I think this clarifies everything. You are an evangelist of the christian religion.

Pardon this somewhat rude comment, but I am a bit shocked by your dismissal of
religions other than your own as "false". It reminds me of a bumper stick I once
saw that said: "Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind." If you were sure your
beliefs were correct, it would not be necessary to classify all other religions as false.
You could actually examine them, think about them objectively, and trust that you
wouldn't find anything to change your mind.

Otherwise, what you seem to be saying that your beliefs make you happy, and you
don't care to consider others...which is fine. But it's a big stretch to go from contentment
with your own beliefs to condemnation of the beliefs of others.

"Let him that is without sin cast the first stone."
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elson
Posted 2005-04-22 1:29 AM (#22644 - in reply to #22610)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ


Well, actually, I'm not really any more of an evangelist than most Christians. Since we feel that we can greatly help people by telling them the good news, it is something that we like to do.

>> Pardon this somewhat rude comment, but I am a bit shocked by your dismissal of
religions other than your own as "false". It reminds me of a bumper stick I once
saw that said: "Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind."

Yes, I do find it rude, albeit amusing, that Christianity's claim to be the only true religion elicits such a response. But it is a well thought out position, not a thoughtless one. What _is_ thoughtless is to react to such an assertion with a cliche.

>> If you were sure your beliefs were correct, it would not be necessary to classify all other religions as false. You could actually examine them, think about them objectively, and trust that you wouldn't find anything to change your mind.

Well, as I have explained previously, that is exactly the only position that an intellectually honest Christian can take. Our God makes the claim that all other religions are false. So we are left with the choice of believing Him or believing other religions.

I personally do not have any objection to learning about other religions, and I have learned more than the average American knows about Islam. It is interesting, and helps me to understand the mindset of the people who believe in those religions.

But your "shop around" philosophy shows misunderstanding of my position - let me try to explain. I am married - are you? I don't spend time objectively comparing other women to my wife, looking for a better wife, or maybe just another wife that I can add to my harem. I love my wife. And though I admire many things about other women - strength, beauty, endurance, wisdom, insight, humor, playfulness - none of them is my wife. I will always love and cherish my wife, and I will never break faith with her.

The same is true for my God, whom I love.

That is where the analogy breaks down, of course, because there is a different spouse for everyone. But there is only one God.

>> Otherwise, what you seem to be saying that your beliefs make you happy, and you
don't care to consider others...which is fine. But it's a big stretch to go from contentment with your own beliefs to condemnation of the beliefs of others.

Well, knowing God does make me happy, of course, but so does chocolate. But there are many chocolates and many things which make a man happy. Not so with God - as above, there is only one God.

You need no be so shocked that I claim that your religion is wrong. You claim that my religion is wrong. Sounds like a tie to me. Unless, of course, you are allowing that my religion is as correct as yours, in which case you have affirmed a mutually exclusive pair of assertions. But wait, perhaps you know more about Christianity than I do, so you are asserting that it is just I that am wrong. But wait - that would mean that you are telling me that my personal religion is wrong. Hmmm. I feel so condemned!

Maybe i should think about this more :-).

Cheers.....
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Bay Guy
Posted 2005-04-22 9:48 AM (#22654 - in reply to #22644)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ



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elson - 2005-04-22 1:29 AM

>> If you were sure your beliefs were correct, it would not be necessary to classify all other religions as false. You could actually examine them, think about them objectively, and trust that you wouldn't find anything to change your mind.

Well, as I have explained previously, that is exactly the only position that an intellectually honest Christian can take. Our God makes the claim that all other religions are false. So we are left with the choice of believing Him or believing other religions.

I personally do not have any objection to learning about other religions, and I have learned more than the average American knows about Islam. It is interesting, and helps me to understand the mindset of the people who believe in those religions.

But your "shop around" philosophy shows misunderstanding of my position - let me try to explain. I am married - are you? I don't spend time objectively comparing other women to my wife, looking for a better wife, or maybe just another wife that I can add to my harem. I love my wife. And though I admire many things about other women - strength, beauty, endurance, wisdom, insight, humor, playfulness - none of them is my wife. I will always love and cherish my wife, and I will never break faith with her.

The same is true for my God, whom I love.

That is where the analogy breaks down, of course, because there is a different spouse for everyone. But there is only one God.

.


Yes, that's really my point. I have my wife, and you have yours, and I would never
refer to your wife as "false" or say that the only true way for a man to take a wife
would be to marry *my* wife. And, making a lifetime commitment to another person
is a bit different that identifying one's religious or philosophical beliefs, am I right?



As regards claims of "wrong", I think the word first used was "false". Your religion doesn't
work for me (and btw, I was a christian at one time), and I'm quite happy that it works for
you as your "true" belief. To say that I don't believe what you believe comes in well short
of dismissing your faith as "false". In other words, I don't see any "exclusion" in mutual
respect.
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elson
Posted 2005-04-23 11:33 PM (#22778 - in reply to #4970)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ


>> Yes, that's really my point. I have my wife, and you have yours, and I would never
refer to your wife as "false" or say that the only true way for a man to take a wife
would be to marry *my* wife. And, making a lifetime commitment to another person
is a bit different that identifying one's religious or philosophical beliefs, am I right?

It is different for me only in that I could have made a moistake about who I should have married.

>> As regards claims of "wrong", I think the word first used was "false". Your religion doesn't work for me (and btw, I was a christian at one time), and I'm quite happy that it works for you as your "true" belief. To say that I don't believe what you believe comes in well short of dismissing your faith as "false". In other words, I don't see any "exclusion" in mutual respect.

I understand your point, but I don't think that you understand what I am saying. It does not matter at all to the truth claims of Christianity that it "works" for me, and it does not matter to those truth claims that it does not work for you.

It does not matter how many people in the middle ages believed that the earth was flat, or if someone's belief about that provided him with moral guidance or comfort or whatever. The truth of the shape of the earth just didn't depend on what anyone thought about it.

That is the way with Christianity. Whether the religion is true or not has nothing to do with what you or I think about it. It is cool that Christianity "works" for me, but that has nothing to do with its truth claims. It is fine that Christianity does not work for you, but again, that has nothing to do with its truth claims.

The existence and character of God is not dependent on what any human thinks or believes.

Now, Christianity claims to have the exclusive truth about God. That truth claim is either true or false. So either Christianity is true or false - it is either true religion or false religion.

So, I contend that Christianity is right, and all other religions are wrong. You contend that my position is false. Thus our beliefs are mutually exclusive.

Now you could take this another level, and say that it is not possible to know for sure which religion is true, but Christianity asserts that it is true even if people can not prove its truth assertions. Thus even at this level, our positions are mutually exclusive.

Either Christianity is true, or something else - or a variety of other things - are true. Christianity cannot be mixed with anything else.

Since I am sure of my position, I have no trouble in saying that your nonChristian religion is false - that it makes truth assertions that are false. You are welcome to say the same about Christianity, but of course, then you are treading on the slippery slope of absolutism :-).

It is not necessary for me to agree with you, or to accept your viewpoint, in order to respect you as a fellow human being. I accord you the same respect, and insist that you be treated with the same justice, value, honor, and mercy, that I grant to all humans - all races, religions, young and old, productive and invalid, born and unborn.

Cheers...
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Bay Guy
Posted 2005-04-24 8:53 AM (#22794 - in reply to #22778)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ



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elson - 2005-04-23 11:33 PM

>> As regards claims of "wrong", I think the word first used was "false". Your religion doesn't work for me (and btw, I was a christian at one time), and I'm quite happy that it works for you as your "true" belief. To say that I don't believe what you believe comes in well short of dismissing your faith as "false". In other words, I don't see any "exclusion" in mutual respect.<<

It does not matter how many people in the middle ages believed that the earth was flat, or if someone's belief about that provided him with moral guidance or comfort or whatever. The truth of the shape of the earth just didn't depend on what anyone thought about it.

That is the way with Christianity. Whether the religion is true or not has nothing to do with what you or I think about it.

The existence and character of God is not dependent on what any human thinks or believes.

...


The existence and character of god are known to us only by way of what we humans
think or believe about god. So our understanding of god is ENTIRELY dependent
upon what humans think or believe. There's no way around this, even allowing that
the ultimate nature of god is unaffected by human belief.

The comparison to the question of Earth's flatness is specious because Earth's flatness
or lack there of is scientifically (objectively) testable. The properties of god cannot be
tested that way because all of our knowledge of god is either subjective or based on
tradition.

And consequently, claims of the truth of a religion by a religion amount to a human
assertion of that a subjective belief is also provable. This is the essence of our
disagreement, and I suppose that on this point we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I do not believe that religion is scientific. It is a matter of faith and personal belief.

From my perspective, your assertion that "christianity is the only true religion" is your
personal belief. I respect your beliefs as your personal beliefs, but I am not convinced
of the "truth" of your claim. If we could devise an experiment to prove objectively your
claims, then I would accept those claims. In contrast, my sense is that no evidence would
convince you to change your beliefs. This again is the difference between faith and science.
Scientifically held beliefs are testable and subject to change in the face of better
evidence. Religious beliefs are not. [Thus, for example, Evolution is a scientific
position whereas Creationism is not.]

In fairness, I will add that I have various beliefs of my own which are not scientifically
provable. I take them on faith and recognize their role in my life as "faith based".

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elson
Posted 2005-04-26 1:03 AM (#22898 - in reply to #22794)
Subject: RE: Yoga and Jesus Christ


>> And consequently, claims of the truth of a religion by a religion amount to a human
assertion of that a subjective belief is also provable. This is the essence of our
disagreement, and I suppose that on this point we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I do not believe that religion is scientific. It is a matter of faith and personal belief.

I agree. As you say, I cannot prove scientifically that my beliefs about God are correct, because God is not containable by science. In addition, we Xtns know that God only reveals Himself to those persons that He has caused to seek His face. In my belief, it is inevitable that you & I disagree about this.

>> From my perspective, your assertion that "christianity is the only true religion" is your personal belief. I respect your beliefs as your personal beliefs, but I am not convinced of the "truth" of your claim.

Yes. That is a logically consistent and reasonable position! If I were you (& I was not a Christian 15 years ago) I would heartily approve of your analysis. I certainly do not expect anyone to believe the claims of Christianity just because I assert them.

Drat! another good arguement ruined by coming to an agreement :-).

Ciao !!
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