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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hey Neel,
You seem to know quite a bit about Hinduism...I'm new to this forum and I thinking you must be Indian. I love reading all your posts. Anyway, my husband is Indian/Nepali and I've been studying Hinduism and Buddhism for quite some time now and learning Hindi from him. We spend lots of time in the Hindu Temple. I've noticed that it's very hard for the Western mind to truely actually grasp the concept of Hinduism/Buddhism because of this culture and the Christian background. I think to fully grasp it and apply it to your life.. your upbringing has to be totally revamped - another words you have to redo your thinking process about God and your relationship to God, and CLEARLY understand that and not be in Confict with it. Not only about God, but about nature, the earth and our relationship to it as well. Did I also mention the elements too. This stuff is very powerful and yet people either take it too seriously or not serious enough. I see this all the time in Yoga studios and new age groups and even in Buddhist Centers. It is so hard to mix Christianity's rigid thinking with Hinduism...but you can see the similarities and grasp the pure essences of Christianity or any other religion and the teachings of Jesus Christ - and this ain't about preaching the gospel and telling all your friends - it is a very subtle and personal thing. You have to start with a clean slate with no residue. Kind of like a purification process. I think this is where your personal Guru comes in handy and understanding that concept even more very well without the conflicts. Then, after all of the above and then some happens, THAT IS WHEN GOD IS PRESENT and there are no questions that need to be answered and there is no more self doubt - nothing. Even in India - the Hindu Kingdom there are still people trying to get this because afterall that is why we are all here - self realization. New generations are coming along in every culture but especially in India and Nepal that aren't being taught and the culture is being lost due to modern civilization. The lucky part about being raised in a culture that supports this concept is truely what I call a blessing because you have support around you if your lucky to be born into a nice family that is spiritually blessed or a country that is Hindu/Buddhist, etc. I was fortunate enough to be spiritually blessed by my Mother and Father - I was able to remember who I was, then God found me, I didn't go searching for it - it just happened and it has been a process or as some would say a journey. I guess that goes with the saying "When the student is ready, the Teacher appears" and don't give up if it hasn't happened - because it will. My experience and observation has been that more and more Diversity has come to the US, therefore making it so much easier to practice and even find God and our personal Gurus. When Christianity was more dominate in the US 200 years and even compared to a mere 50 years and even the last 10 years, look at how our country was..we have come a long way and Thank God for Yoga, Hinduism, Buddhism...may the Dharma spread in whatever form. The white men killed God when they tortured the Native Americans....its nice to see God is forgiving and we getting another chance - may that be the case forever and ever!!
Anyway, this could become a book and there are so many aspects of God. All religions have a path to God....some are just more skillful than others. The reason I like Hinduism is because it is so complete and its easy to relate to and there seems to be more willing Hindus and Buddhist sharing the knowledge without the strings attached, well in some places no strings and it doesn't cost you a fortune. My understanding of the Dieties are that they are merely aids - they are all embodiments of God. Buddha and Jesus = Vishnu. Brahma never incarnated on earth and that is another page of typing, and Shiva has no form and came into the form of his devotee/best friend, which is why they have the Shivalingum. and YES, Buddhism came from Hinduism because Buddha was a Hindu and he didn't like what was going on between the Brahmins (they were disagreeing about something as humans do when they are organizing, yes even in temples) during that time period and left the temple and went out and became enlightened on his own - which I think anyone could do if they applied themself and could find a nice Boddhi tree:~) Everyone adored Buddha and his teachings and started their own religion called Buddhism. Then it spread through the incarnation of Padmasambava into Tibet and then it went to China and Japan and talk about spreading the Dharma. Good night and thanks for reading part of my novel. Om Nama Shivia - Bruce I'm with ya on that one about asking God to please get me through till that next Asana - you are too funny!! |
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| Bad guy, You are accurate on the strict sense of the works, I checked in 4 latin dictionaries online, and find it to be a very rich language with a lot of nuances on the words. I was trying to capture the sense, not the strict definition of the words. Sorry, but I've learned that strict translations may not convey the real sense of the word from my living in a foreign country for a few years.
It's a powerful mantra with either translation.
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In either case a book called "American Yoga" has a small biography of Gary Kraftsow. In that he said "Yoga is really nonsectarian ... and it may not be appropriate to ask a devout Christian to do Hindu Chants. The ability to help a person of deep Catholic or Jewish faith -- or someone who is an athiest to make a spiritual connection increases tremendously if you adapt the practices to that person." Page 152.
His training was from TKV Desikachar (Viniyoga) the son of T. Krishnamancharya.
Edited by MrD 2005-02-04 1:46 AM
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| jeansyoga - 2005-02-03 6:27 AM
I am very eager to hear more feedback from Christian yogis & yoginis as to how your practice relates to and strengthens your faith. I am not a Christian (I believe there's a higher power, but I don't relate to any particular organized religion), but I teach in a very STRONG Christian community. I'm nervous discussing the spiritual aspects in class because some still fear yoga is some "weird religion" that they must subscribe to in order to do the asanas. Better to let them discover the spiritual benefits on their own? I want to show them that yoga strengthens one's faith no matter what the belief system, but I don't want to scare anyone off by sounding like a new-age whacko!
Please, please share your thoughts on this!
How about getting back on topic. The Hindiusm vs Christianity is in the meditation forum, has some great discussion going on there.
Emmy Cleaves (Bikram Yoga instructor) said I'm a completely Western Woman and have no Interest in becoming am ersatz Hindu. American Yoga page 125
The question in this forum as I see it is how can Christians realize a greater spirituality through the practice of yoga without loosing who they are.
Edited by MrD 2005-02-04 1:56 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
 
Location: A Blue State |
Mr D --- Yes, I'm pretty sure of the Latin translation. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2005-02-03 11:09 PM
Dear Brother Bay Guy:
Brahma (NOT brahman, which is the formless reality) and Shiva are the aspect of Vishnu. So, as such Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are the trinity aspect of the same God hood.
The Aspect Shiva of Vishnu is one which is origin of Yoga Science.
Now, coming to your chant:
mangalamoorati marutananadana
sakala amangalamoolanikandana
mangala - auspicious,
murti - one with the form
maruta - God Wind (same as prakritilaya in Patanjali, the one with samadhi who joined the nature)
nandana - son
sakala - the entire
amangala - inauspicious or harmful
moola - root
nikandana - distroyer
I am sure you can make the entire translation with this.
Neel
Dear Brother Neel,
Thanks for all of the above. I've always gotten confused about "Kanda" (which I believe
means bulb or root...eg Kandasana) and "Nikandana".
But now I have another question. Is there any reason not to say that Vishnu is an
aspect of Shiva, rather than Shiva is an aspect of Vishnu, or are these equilavent?
Bay Guy |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | MrD - 2005-02-04 1:30 AM
Emmy Cleaves (Bikram Yoga instructor) said I'm a completely Western Woman and have no Interest in becoming am ersatz Hindu. American Yoga page 125
What is the difference between an "ersatz Hindu" and an "ersatz Christian"? Is she saying
that she could never commit to the Hindu believe system, or is she saying that religion only
counts if you are born into it? Or is the idea that Westerners can only practice western
religions? The way I read her comment, after stripping out the nonsense, is "I have
no interest in becoming a Hindu". |
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| I'm not sure I understand that comment either. I am not interested in becoming Hindu either, or Christian, or Jewish, or Wiccan, or whatever . . . I consider myself spiritual but not "religious." But I don't see how that really relates to yoga (practicing or teaching). My teacher Joseph LePage put it well: "Yoga is not a religion; Hindu is a religion. Yoga is a science."
Perhaps I'm not giving the Christians in my community enough credit if I think they will be scared to try yoga. I just wish I had a better way to relate to them and explain. I went to church as a small child but have pretty much forgotten everything about it. My main exposure since then are just the zealots who think I'm a bad person if I don't believe everything they believe in, but certainly all Christians are not like that. That seems to go against the actual teachings of Christ - as little as I have studied the religion, I understand it is supposed to have something to do with peace, love, acceptance, and understanding. Funny how often we go to war over it. But I digress . . .
For you Christian yogis/yoginis, what about yoga causes it to strengthen your faith in God? What drew you to practice yoga? How did you know that the yoga teacher would not try to "convert" you or otherwise make you feel spiritually uncomfortable?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Good questions, Jean!
>>what about yoga causes it to strengthen your faith in God?<< I also consider myself spiritual but not religious so it is not really about me becoming more in touch with God or making me a better practitioner of my faith. I think for me, and perhaps many people, it is just a matter of giving me time and mental space to just be with myself and quieting my brain and mind for a short time each day. It allows space in my life to consider my place in the world and how I can fulfill my time on the planet in the best way. And actually, these conversations online and in person keep bringing me back to the concept of God and making me think about it and define for myself what my own spiritual beliefs are.
>>How did you know that the yoga teacher would not try to "convert" you or otherwise make you feel spiritually uncomfortable?<< Well, being a non-religious person, it didn't matter much to me so I didn't go into it with any such fears. But it was explained early on in my classes that yoga was not a religion. I like the statement that Hinduism is a religion but yoga is a science. We do chant to Patanjali at the beginning of our classes but for me that is a "when in Rome" issue. I have no more problem with that than I do with singing hymns if I am in a Christian church. I often say that I sing "Twinkle twinkle little star" to my little ones often, but it does not make me an astronaut!  |
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| Dar Cyndi:
I read but quickly your big post and enjoyed it. I am little slower in reading. Now, you maylike to know that my wife, Nancy is Eurpoean,and she speaks Hindi very well. She also plays Indian Classical Music. And, she married me becasuse she wanted Indian and we shall settle in India. See our wedding pictures on this board in General, somewhere in the recent past. By the way tell your husband: 'Jaya Pashupatinath'.
Dear Brother Bay Guy:
As for your question: If you feel better with Vishnu being part of Shiva, that will not be offensive. Vishnu and Shiva are identical in a way, meaning that you are looking at a chair from the right side insttead of from the front or the left side. However, Vishnu means one occupies the entire universe and Shiva is the One Aspect of it. For example Shiva deals with dissolution (NOT destruction, as commonly misunderstood) of any material part including the entire nature, so that Brahma aspect can create new one from the dissolved. ETC.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| I found the same to be truw with my yoga practice.
Although I'm not a practicing christian , I was was equally aware of the propaganda that exist out there that yoga is demon-worship! How laughable.
I've subsequently discovered my spiritual side though yoga as it connects me to God (or by whatever name we choose to call him.) I've also learn't that we are all spiritual beings having a physical experience in this lifetime, that God is above the dogma of religion and that we are all interconnected through our spiritual awareness of each other.
Glad that we share similiar experiences.
Sat Nam! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 517
Location: New Jersey | Practicing Yoga has not really intertwined with my faith at this point. Maybe it's because I'm a little confused as to what my faith is at this point. I was raised as a Christian, and went to Church and Sunday School most Sundays. By the time I went to college, I decided that my spirituality was personal, and I didn't want to participate in organized religion. Since then, I have gone back to church several times, and come to the same conclusion. Recently, I have developed an interest in Buddhism and have been exploring that, but as much as an interest as I have in other religions, I think Christian ideals and beliefs have been so ingrained in me that it's hard to let them go. So up til now, I've kept Yoga separate from my beliefs. It is still spiritual in a way for me, just in a different way than a religion would be. Is there anyone else who has been as confused as I am about your beliefs? Has Yoga helped anyone find a spiritual path?
Samantha
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| That sounds very similar to my experience, although I stopped going to church sooner (my mother had a falling-out with the minister). To add more confusion to the mix, she later joined a "metaphysical" church . . . their beliefs were not unlike my own, at least on paper, but most of the people at this particular church were kinda weird and creepy so I didn't get involved.
I did find a terrific welcoming atmosphere at a Unitarian-Universalist Church, whose philosophy seemed to be "Hey - you're ALL right!" and didn't seem to subscribe to any particular dogma. The hymns and sermons tipped a hat to just about every religion under the sun, I loved it! But sadly, I moved away and can't find anything like it in my new hometown.
What I have found through yoga is a way to be at peace with my own spirituality . . . no longer seeking a church to help shape my beliefs into words or needing to see my own faith reflected in the eyes of others. As my mind has grown quieter, I realized that I know what I believe and that doesn't require validation.
This is not to say that people who do attend church are needy in some way! I'm very happy for those who find fulfillment, fellowship, support, and joy at their local church. I haven't really found that in the traditional settings, and my journey involved the frustration of always seeking for something that wasn't quite there. Then I finally realized that all the answers I sought were here in my heart the whole time (there's no place like home!). I don't think I ever could have realized that without yoga.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I just want to say one thing about church, temples and GOD. I learned this from my husband after he saw me being tortured in a Buddhist Temple. God is not at these organizations called church and organizations that have human development. These places are merely tools to help you find God within yourself. Your home and your body is where God is. God doesn't want to be in these places where people act like idiots. It is our responsibility though to direct ourselves towards a Godward mind even when we are at these places - because of respect. Which is where the challenge lies and why it is so hard for us to understand. YOGA is another tool that helps us direct our mind to God. You cannot even practice Yoga and then go out and commit murder, eat Rajasic or Tamasic foods and act inappropriately. It will eventually interfere with your yoga practice. The true YOGA practice is NON-Violence. Non-Violence is not just about how you deal with others but firstly how you deal with yourself. The other thing about temples is that depending on the temple, is also where you find God for yourself and then when you do, you are like a magnet. People are automatically drawn to you, not you have to go find someone to cling onto and preach and all that wierd stuff. Then when you speak and deal with people outside the temple, your Godlike manners will spread automatically to everyone you come in contact with - without ever breathing a word. Some temples are very rich in India even, while some are just absolutely corrupt...just like churches here in the US. That is where most of the confusion lies is because we haven't understood why it is like that and we need to correct that confusion within ourselves, let it GO and find the God in everything - because even in the corrupt places, God can be found. I will say that I have been to a couple of Hindu temples in the US and I know I saw and felt GOD there. But these were places where the people were truely devoted and there was no Bull you know what!!
Neel, my husband, who's name is Satyam, said to tell you Jai Hind. What part of India are you from?? Satyam's Father is Punjab and his Mother is Nepali.
Take care, Cyndi Singh |
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| Very nicely written Cyndi--I could not agree more with your statement: "God doesn't want to be in these places where people act like idiots." Thant's my kind of god. |
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| 1) No one really knows what God wants.
2) Perhaps God is actually in these corrupt places because they need God more?
and
3) Cyndi, I don't disagree with your statements, but I do take exception to your use of absolutes. You WILL find God. You WILL not even be able to practice if...
You're talking about the human aspect of the relationship with the divine here. When you throw humanity into the equation, there are no absolutes. THAT is the only absolute!
These things just might not happen for me or someone else, where this is your experience. Just because you were blessed/cursed/in the right place, doesn't mean someone else will be. All too often as we judge ourselves harshly, and we don't experience the absolutes someone goes on and on about, we find it a failure in ourselves or something we're lacking. I say we need to create a way of delivering our experiences and possibilities while encouraging the chance that this might happen, but ... might not. That things could happen. However, if it does NOT, it isn't that the practitioner is doing something wrong. It could be that they are not yet on that point in their path. I speak from experience here.
I find it interesting that this whole discussion is the very anthisis of yoga. Yoga does not recognize a God or divine separate from the self. (Hence Christianity's issues with yoga.) Each time we make God seperate from ourselves, prepetuating that dualism, we encourage what the Hindu faith and yogic works simply call "suffering." Cyndi's point of finding the divine within is trans-denominational and crosses all the lines of faith.
What is the problem, the fear with conventional western faiths that this is so lost in their denounciation of yoga? |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | YogaDancer - 2005-02-05 12:24 PM
I find it interesting that this whole discussion is the very anthisis of yoga. Yoga does not recognize a God or divine separate from the self. (Hence Christianity's issues with yoga.) Each time we make God separate from ourselves, prepetuating that dualism, we encourage what the Hindu faith and yogic works simply call "suffering." Cyndi's point of finding the divine within is trans-denominational and crosses all the lines of faith.
What is the problem, the fear with conventional western faiths that this is so lost in their denounciation of yoga?
What is the problem? If we are all in direct contact with god, then the folks who spend their
time telling us what god thinks have to get new jobs --- sort of like what Martin Luther was
about when he nailed his theses to the door of the church and translated the Vulgate into
German. Sometimes their fear seems to be protective of their own temporal power --- to
borrow a Christian metaphor.
Sarvam Khalvidam Bramha. Tat tvam asi.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | ) No one really knows what God wants.
Yes, you do find out what God really wants when you really, really find God.
2) Perhaps God is actually in these corrupt places because they need God more?
and
the concept of God is actually in these places..of course, but the experience of God is NOT in these places, why?? because most of the time the people in these places have not discovered God and they are not practicing God. I am not stating exactly which places because there are some places that are truely DIVINE, but anyone with a GOD experience will recognize this and whatever level of experience, how much of God is there or whatever, a person will know.
3) Cyndi, I don't disagree with your statements, but I do take exception to your use of absolutes. You WILL find God. You WILL not even be able to practice if...
I used to feel that way too!! However, my view changed over the years after having my experiences...and guess what?? If you practice YOGA, if you direct your mind to a Godward mind, I do believe there is a guarantee that you WILL find God, and not being able to practice if??? If what?? If you don't follow some simple discipline of directing your mind and body towards that at all times or in the early stages, as much as possible until you decide and KNOW what is good for you, what works for you and then act accordingly because YOU KNOW that if you don't you will not be balanced internally and externally...I mean like its a choice and we all have free will, that is the human experience...but finding God is one of the simpliest things on this earth, but yet at the same time it is the most challenging because we are human and its a matter of giving up ones EGO and the wordly things of being IN THE WORLD AND NOT OF THE WORLD as Jesus Christ taught and then choosing GOD and living from that place every day, every moment and making it the most important thing in our lives because we Know and understand completely that we cannot go back and don't want to go back. Yoga is definitely a good way to keep our bodies in balance and to align ourselves to a Godward mind. Yes, you are right, it sometimes takes many years to undo and dissolve the Ego and some never discover it, however, that is why there are rebirths. But if you are serious about what you are doing and want it, you will have it. Some takes longer, and some get it right away...that is the person's Karma. But you shouldn't give up in the middle just because you are trying to force something..let it go and I like to say "unpeel the onion" there are many layers of the EGO and I'm sorry to say this, but here in America, we are brought up in a society that FEEDS THE EGO. I too went to Sunday school, in fact my Father is still going and even our president is a good example of that!!!!!!
As for this comment "Cyndi's point of finding the divine within is trans-denominational and crosses all the lines of faith" - that has been the major conflict for thousands of years - but who cares if you cross the line of faith....you tend to pull away from belief's and dogma's once you move towards an enlightened state and towards a Godward mind...you don't need to have someone tell you how to be, you rely on your inner self - your Buddha nature, whatever you want to call it. Everyone has Buddha nature, they just don't tap into it and use it because they have been conditioned by society to rely on things outside of yourself and Christianity & some other religions have been doing this to people simply as a mind control measure to keep their flock in line and so they can stay in business, and did I mention Global Power so they can rule the world, LOL!! Have a nice day, I'm going hiking in the mountains where God likes to hang out. |
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| See, even these statements are more acceptable and less abrasive than previous posts. "I believe there is a guarantee.." leaves room for the conditional and those who are not on the same path, not at the same place, and just plain not ready.
I also don't believe as mortals that we'll ever blanket-ly know what God wants. We might discover an inner conviction about what we as a person should/should not do, but we aren't divine and cannot know in the huge picture, what God has planned.
I'm happy for you and your convictions, and it's wonderful to put positive experiences out there for those seeking. To know that someone has found that which helps them know the divine encourages everyone, believers or not. At least I think so.
It's the absolutes that still set me back. I find myself thinking, "Oh, to be young and know everything again...."
Christine |
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Some will tell you that Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu.
BG, Buddha is not an Avatar of Vishnu.
Edited by Thushara 2005-02-06 9:19 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | I had heard that the statement was controversial, and that
Hindus and Buddhists see this differently. There are similar
disagreements about Jesus Christ among Christians, Jews,
and Muslims.
Does any of this matter beyond what an individual believes for himself?
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| BG,
if you talk about belief it doesnt matter., coz its blind., But if you want to find the truth YES it matters !!!
BG! If you tell wrong things like this Im going to tell Kulkarnn to give you “Fail” marks in your upcoming Exam
Edited by Thushara 2005-02-06 9:52 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Oh, but Thushara -- the Truth is something that each of us must accept as a matter
of faith, if we are talking about truths that cannot be scientifically tested. What we
believe as a matter of faith is what we accept to be true, despite the lack of objective
proof. To accept that Christ or Buddha lived the lives we are told that they
lived is a matter of faith in itself, and to say that either descended from a god is
a further matter of faith. I don't like to use the word truth when I talk about things
that we take on faith.
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WRONG!!!!!!!!! SEEEEE again wrong. One more year in the same class @@|*#$&*$&*$~ |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Hey, no fair editing your message while I'm responding to you!
Before you tell Brother Neel to flunk me on my exam, you'd
better reread the posts above.
So nah. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Okay, why's it wrong?? |
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Yoga and Jesus Christ
