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| I started doing Bikram in January. I'm making decent progress in the poses, but I've started to get an uncomfortable feeling in my knees. Not quite pain; it almost feels like a "throbbing itch" or something. When I do the third part of awkward pose, I sometimes feel really sore. I've also felt slight soreness at the bottom of my spine.
Do these sound like common Bikram injuries? What kind of a doctor would I see about this?
I have a feeling that Bikram was probably not the wisest form of yoga for me to start with. I enjoy the feeling after class, and I love the sweating, but I've already grown tired of how the instructors push students almost like it's a weightlifting class or something. |
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| If your instructor allows you to modify, try eliminating the 3rd part of the awkward and repeating the first part in that series. Also steer clear of the fixed firm and when doing any of the standing postures where you're encouraged to 'lock the knee', try doing them with a bent knee to build up your quads, then when the pain/itching has stopped, move towards straightening the leg out but without the hyperextension. Also, if it hurts in tree pose when you pull your knee back, try just placing your foot on the inside of your opposite thigh and balance there - eliminating toe stand as well. Ice after class if you're feeling pain. If you can find the NYTimes article on Bikram/knees - worth the read - commonalities. |
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| Thanks for the reply, Re-bikramized.
I have never even attempted the toe stand portion of tree pose. Yes, avoiding fixed firm also seems like common sense.
I'm not sure "itching" is the right word, but something's definitely not right with my knees. Not sure if it's an inflamed ligament or what. I am 30 and was an avid jogger for years until starting yoga, so maybe that has something to do with it. I mentioned it to one of my teachers, and she suggested that my knees are starting to "heal," but that sounds dubious. |
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| yes, that does sound a little 'suspect' to me as well. the most important thing you can do is listen to your body and know your limitations. if you're feeling anything other than a stretch in your postures, then try modifying them. a lot of times when people try yoga they are introduced to muscle areas that they've never used before but knowing the difference between stretching and straining is key. also, ask yourself what you're looking for out of a yoga practice and if you're finding that bikram is not for you anymore, than try another form. there isn't any one form of yoga that's the BEST, it's all what makes sense to you and what fits you best. be careful though with your knees and also know that you don't have to stop doing yoga because of an injury - you just have to ease up, modify and let your injuries heal. |
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| A while back, I went through a period where I had very weird knee stuff going on;
It felt like a 'pulling' soreness right smack in the middle of my knee, deep inside.
It would just kinda come on a few hours or so after class. And it kinda started freaking me out!
I suspect it was linked to the stretching that takes place during fixed firm. I wasn't able then to get my but down on the floor (and still, a year later can't but am VERY VERY CLOSE!).
After asking several teahers, I did get some advice. Basically just to listen to my body, take a day off class if necessary, and just work through it.
It did pass, and hasn't happened since. I also now have a MUCH easier time locking my knee, and feel that overall it must have been related to the intense stretch to the knees in fixed firm.
Hope any of this helps... |
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| Thanks for the replies!
I talked to my instructor last night, and he gave me advice. He told me that I'm probably not pressing my knees together tightly enough in the third awkward pose, and also that I was torquing my knee in triangle pose. It seemed to be great advice; I felt much less strain on my knees during and after class. I still have the occasional "itching," but he told me that unless I start to feel actual pain, I should be fine. I hope he's right.
What I like about Bikram is: it's a challenging workout, I sweat a lot, and it makes me feel good—both physically and "good about myself." |
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| Oh, yeah... He also told me that I could be hyperextending my knees when locking them out during the standing series, just as you suggested, Re-Bikram. His advice was to think about putting my body weight on the front of the heel rather than on the back. |
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| About this topic: I am neither condemning or recommending Bikram Style of Yoga. But, my feelings are as follows: First do not blame any thing on Bikram or any one else. When you take up a practice, you should try it for a while. Try to know what exactly happens in that style. For example, in Iyengar style (he was my neighbour for 30 years), alignment is very very important. And, if you try to get that alignment in one week by force you shall get pain. Similarly you have to find: What is in your style which is causing you a prroblem. And, why some others are not having it. And, after this if you continue it for a while ( I shall say 5 weeks each day) and have problem, you should think of a change.
Best Luck
neel kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Oh, for God's sake.
Read this board. This is one of the most common complaints in Bikram and it's just dumb. These teachers should be required to actually know something about human anatomy and most don't.
Of COURSE you're hyperextending your knees. Any time you lock them, you strain the tendons. You'll feel it in the middle of the back of your knee in most straining poses.
In Uktasana (chair) either keep your knees the same distance apart as your feet or put them both together. The knees do not bend side to side and this just strains the lateral tendons on both sides of the knee. Do what is right for YOU, not what everyone else is doing. As a matter of fact, get yourself away from those darned mirrors. You can't listen when your eyes are eating voraciously.
Vrkshasana (Tree): If you cannot get into 1/2 lotus without "sickling" your ankle, you should not be going down into the 3rd position. Your knee will compensate where your hips are tight and the next thing you know you've got a collateral tendon strain on the outside of your knee -- plus, you'll damage it more as you try to get out of that pose after ripping it.
Fixed Firm = put a rolled up washcloth behind your knees to make space in the joint.
Dandyamana Janu Sirsasana = lift your toes, which prevents you from hyperextending the standing leg, spread your toes on the lifted leg into "Barbie foot" to avoid hyperextending that leg.
Ustrasana (Camel): Keep your knees and feet the exact same distance apart. Don't let your feet come together behind you.
And you are absolutely correct that this is not a good beginning yoga (in MY and many people's opinion). The poses are not beginning, there is no teaching of form and alignment, and to tell someone new to "listen to their body" is horse-hooey. As a runner, did you ever? Or did you try to "run through" problems and pain? In yoga, pain = no gain. Period. Do you have any idea what your body actually says? I know that after 27 years of yoga, sometimes my body is speaking Spanish while I'm trying to give it instructions in Greek. A newbie? No.
If you're having knee issues now, just keep up the Bikram practice with a teacher who doesn't know how to address alignment. (Imagine me making very disgusted head shakes.) If you have the money and are actually enjoying yoga, get yourself to foundational yoga class like Anusara or Iyengar class and learn how to use your body properly. Your yoga practice will explode forward without pain, strain, and heat prostration. All yoga is complimentary to not only another style of yoga (if you can ignore the Bikram lack of safety and just practice), and it's complimentary to every other sport. You cannot go wrong incorporating the two.
Sorry to be so scolding, but if you read the board, this has been covered about a gudzillion times -- and the NY Times article didn't have to make anything up. I see it in the Special Conditions classes I teach and in the sessions I committed to take to be able to speak about Bikram. Nasty nasty and totally avoidable problems.
Christine |
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| Christine ---
Thanks for posting this information on knee alignment
in the Bikram series. I have a couple of questions and
comments.
First question, I've heard the word "sickling" in connection with
lotus pose, but I've never seen a photo that shows
exactly what it means. Is this inward rotation (inversion)
of the ankle joint or does it have something to do with
flexion (dorsiflexion) of the joint? Does it matter if the
ankle is "sickled" when the load is on the foreleg rather than
the foot?
Second, maybe I'm misunderstanding your recommendation
to lift the toes in Dandayamana Janusirsasana, but it doesn't
seem to prevent hyperextension for me. What works better
(for me) is to make the hamstrings active and attempt to
hold a slight bend in the knee. Still, this pose, more than
any other in the Bikram series, is a knee killer. Do you
have further advice?
As a comment, Dandayamana Bibhaktipada Janusirsansa
also allows hyperextension of the forward knee (easily preventable
by paying attention to the joint and holding a slight bend),
as does Tuladandasana. The latter comes after the other two
standing balance poses when the muscles protecting the knee
have already become tired. I'm not sure how to prevent hyperextension
in that posture.
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| 1) There is a picture of "sickling" the foothere.
Yes, no matter where the load is on the leg, sickling the ankle strains the tendons not only the outside of the ankle, but following those tendons, up into the tendons on the outside of the knee. (The ACL is on the inside, and the name of its complimentary tendon on the outside escapes me. Sorry.) Sickling happens in a lot of asanas, not necessarly used in Bikram. But it is definitely something to avoid if possible. See, in Vrkshasana and Padmasana type poses, the hips must be really open to do them well. When the hips are not, the knee takes the brunt of them. The knees don't bend side to side, which is where they end up straining. So work on hip openers and these asanas will suddenly become a lot more do-able.
Second:
You're using counterintuitive thinking in this one, Bay Guy. First, you're attempting to stretch your hamstrings in this one, right? It is biomechanically impossible to stretch a muscle in use. In order to stretch the hamstrings, you must activate the complimentary muscles, which are the quads. Activating the quads permits the hamstrings to relax and be stretched. Lifting the toes does engage the quads, but you can (and some need to) take it a bit further by lifting the knee caps and doing a tiny bend to the knee. So tiny you might not even see it with the eye. Put weight into the ball of the foot while lifting the toes. You'll feel your knee soften a bit. If you're activating the hamstrings in this asana, you're fighting yourself big time.
It sounds like you're a hyper mobile kind of soul. This is an odd burden, because what you might feel is straight is actually bent. Albeit the other way, but still bent. When we are tired, and going in and out of an asana is when we injure ourselves. That's the time to slow down (no matter what your teacher is ranting at you) and move into the asanas as carefully as you can. Pay particular attention to pushing into the balls of the foot. I know in the lifted leg you're supposed to pull back on the toes, but for hyper mobile people, this is knee suicide. Instead, think "Barbie foot." Push the mounds of your toes into your hand firmly, while pulling firmly but gently back on the toes. So you have an almost isometric action. If you're putting as much pressure into the balls of your toes, lifting your knee caps (quad action) and -- oh never mind the next, because Bikram rounds the spine rather than extending, so I'll stop there. Anyway, this should help relieve the strain on your knees.
My suggestion is to really slow down. There is no rush, no prize, and no guarantee of being a better person or an enlightened one. As with all forms of physical exertion, slow is better, right? So if you slow down, do these asanas very carefully and quit worrying about what you "should" be doing, your progress will become steady.
Every other school of yoga says if your breath is ragged or quick, or you're straining in any way (clenched jaw or teeth, tongue pressing into the roof of your mouth, grimacing) you're defeating the purpose of yoga. Find a balance between strength and ease, of which your breath is an indicator. Steady, even breaths, even with someone else calling out the asanas. But you would have to be brave, given the fact Bikram is timed.
I hope this helps a bit.
Christine |
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| Thanks again, Christine.
The sickling in your picture is a combination of inversion and plantarflexion,
sort of like putting your foot down wrong in high-heeled shoes. Yuck!
You're right, I am hypermobile (I do full spinal twist and various deep back
bends...for which your web site has been a terrific resource). And you're right
about hyperextension feeling straight to me, as well. I've trying putting the
hamstrings in opposition to the quads in standing-head-to-knee just to provide
hard stability, since my hamstrings are too loose to prevent hyperextension
if they are not active. This is after a lot of time spent pulling the quads and
glutes tight trying to "lock" the knee joint into an inflexible position. Let me
try your advice on the feet some more and see what happens.
Maybe a better question is 'why am I still doing Bikram yoga'?
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| Hypermobile people need to build strength to support those lose joints.
Bikram is not a strength-building yoga.
>>why am I still doing Bikram yoga?
You can always assume that is my question.
Anytime you have questions, I might have something to try. Given you wouldn't learn the yoga party tricks from a Bikram class, my training in other yoga traditions might give you different ideas as to how to use your body. 
C. |
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| Well, I woke up thinking about your hamstrings, Bay Guy. Nice to know someone's thinking of you, right?
Your comment about your hamstrings being too loose to let them go was interesting, since it's somewhat of a biomechanical anomoly, but goodness knows I've seen stranger!
It may well be that you need to maintain muscle energy more firmly on both sides of your leg, which would definitely be a strength building move. Working from the ground up, do try the toe work, but add in this: Place your big toes down, spread your other toes as wide apart from them as you can. Try to see mat color between them. Make certain your 2nd toes are lined up, parallel to each other (big toe "straight" is influenced by bunions, etc.). You'll note that taking your little toe out like this will cause your peroneus (peronius?) muscle or "racing strip" muscle to activate up your shin. This will also help strengthen and protect your knees.
Since you are so flexible, as I've suggested here, it may well be that your yoga thing is to build strength to protect those joints. In light of your flexibility, please be cautious about throwing yourself into many of those asana in my site without teacher instruction, because some of the asana that demand so much flexibility actually require muscle strength to prevent dislocation. I would hate to see you get yourself into something, fall, trip, be startled, or whatever, and do some damage. A teacher can help you prevent that, or show you the yoga party tricks to do asana more safely and a lot more easily.
Case in point: I was recently manipulated into Marichyasana D. I had just had my hands brought together behind me when I took a too deep breath (for me at that moment) and sneezed a huge, allergy-motivatd sneeze. I shot out of that pose in all directions as though I'd been spring loaded. I swear that body parts were everywhere around the room. I pulled muscles, strained neck and knees, threw out my sacrum, and a whole bunch of other minor but inconvenient and painful things. Without someone there to realign me as I lay on the floor moaning, I'd probably still be gimping about.
Anyway, that picture of sickling in Padmasana? Next time people are going into Vrkshasana around you, note how many cannot actually bring their foot into the crease of the hip (at the groin), yet try to take the pose further. It's hugely hip-demanding, and with the foot further down on the thigh, their knees are compromised. I can't watch newbies practice Bikram anymore. I spend too much time appreciating what I see around me to watch newbies pushing themsleves where their bodies are not yet ready to go. Makes me sad -- and cringe.
Back to bed I go.
C. |
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| Christine ---
I'm sorry to disturb your sleep! But thanks for helping with my
problem. I'll try the toe work with that pose.
I was comparing Dandayamana Janusirsasana to Utthita Hasta Padangusthasana,
particularly when the latter is taken to full expression, with nose to shin. The work
of the quadriceps is similar in these poses, but the hamstring stretch is greater in the
latter while the balance is arguably harder in the former. What strikes about the
comparison is the relative position of the body's center of weight. In "Utthita",
the body weight is mostly above the standing leg, but in "Dandayamana" it moves
forward which tends to drive the knee joint more toward hyperextension. I recall that
the tendency to hyperextension decreases when I bring my forehead to my knee,
which brings the weight closer to the vertical axis of the standing leg. I'll have to mess
around with all this during my practice tonight to see if I can sort it out.
So far as I'm aware, Dandayamana Janusirsasana is unique to Bikram's lineage
('though not original to Bikram, of course).
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| Dandayamana Janu Sirsasana is unique to Bikram only in that he says to "curl the spine to bring the crown (top) of the head to the knee (not the forehead).
All other schools of yoga seek to elongate the spine, making it easier to move. Bikram crunches by curving before extension. Really bad for people with disc issues, but that's another rant.
Also, in Bikram's version, the yoga party trick is to actually pull the foot backwards (not the toes) to put the femur more firmly into the hip socket. This creates a small counter balance with your bummy out behind. It's easier, and feels fantastic in the lumbar/sacral area.
In Utthita Hasta Padangusthasana, the nose to shin only happens if torso is lying along the thigh. If not, it should be CHIN to shin to elongate the spine, with the dristhe being the big toe. |
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| Dandayamana Janu Sirsasana is unique to Bikram only in that he says to "curl the spine to bring the crown (top) of the head to the knee (not the forehead).
All other schools of yoga seek to elongate the spine, making it easier to move. Bikram crunches by curving before extension. Really bad for people with disc issues, but that's another rant.
Also, in Bikram's version, the yoga party trick is to actually pull the foot backwards (not the toes) to put the femur more firmly into the hip socket. This creates a small counter balance with your bummy out behind. It's easier, and feels fantastic in the lumbar/sacral area.
I find the former easier because of using 2 hands to lift the foot and the counterbalance with the hip socket. I find the latter harder because the true posture does not allow for counterbalancing anything, even the hips (which should remain level). You are also lifting with one hand, so your quads must contribute more.
I do love to externally rotate my hip in the hip socket, though, to take my foot out to the side. It feels fantastic and is a great yog aparty trick!
C.
In Utthita Hasta Padangusthasana, the nose to shin only happens if torso is lying along the thigh. If not, it should be CHIN to shin to elongate the spine, with the dristhe being the big toe. |
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| Hey Christine --
In the past, you mentioned the crown of the head touching the knee in Dandayamana Janusirasana. I've never heard that before. You say it again here, so I checked both editions of my dialogue. It only says forehead to knee, and that is only after you have acheived enough spine and hamstring length to bend the elbows below the calf muscle. One step at a time: first is strong standing leg; second is leg stretched forward with both quadricep muscles engaged, toes turned in on lifted leg (never says pull toes, says to flex the foot so all five toes are turning in); third is to stretch the body onto the leg, bending elbows toward floor; finally, if elbows are below the calf, bring the body down, chest down, head down & touch chin to chest, touch forehead to knee.
Just an FYI. Maybe it's changed since your last Bikram experience.
Hugs,
Gwyn |
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| It was going on 3 years ago now that I committed to my 12 weeks, 3x a week stint at the Bikram Studio.
I did take from the winning teacher trainee, so as to be as authentic (at the time) as I could be.
I noticed extreme differences in what he taught then and what I'd experienced 7 years prior, too.
I think the way you're describing the asana to be taught now makes more sense. That "string of pearls" bending is so detrimental to so many people's spines!
I wonder if he'll ever have you lift your elbows so as to open the chest and keep the spine from hunching. Just a rhetorical question, but over the years every time someone goes to India to study with Pattabhi, someone comes home with minor we've-always-done-it-this-way changes. I'm waiting for Pattabhi to burp, scratch and spit and someone to come home demanding that we now insert those items into the Primary Series. The toughest part is to be told it was always that way when it was not.
interesting to see the "set series" of both Bikram and Ashtanga ever-slowly evolve!
Thanks for the update, Gwen!
Christine |
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| You're welcome
I had an interesting conversation with the owner of our studio today regarding backbending, specifically camel and cobra. He took my class today and asked me about my teaching them to tuck the tailbone down without clenching the glutes. He says it is impossible to do cobra correctly without clenching the glutes. I demonstrated but he's still in the butt-clenching club. Then we looked it up on your website -- it does say to contract the glutes. We talked about it at length and I suggested that we should ask Matthew Darling what he thought, since he is certified by Patthabi Jois (sp?), to which he tartly replied, "Yes, well, I'm certified by Bikram Choudhury!" Ooops! I tried to swim backward a little but I think I really offended him! Instead of replying, "Touche'", I actually defended the Ashtanga certification process! I'm probably fired  I feel bad . . .
Regarding Cobra -- he was saying the upper traps should be fully visible, flared even (like a cobra) with the shoulders forward??
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| Christine,
What changes (if any) did you notice after practicing Bikram 3 x's/wk for 12 weeks? Just curious....I've noticed positive changes but I'm wondering if I can achieve the same results in a hatha yoga class. I thought about ashtanga or vinyasa flow but I don't like sun salutations. I'll do a sun salutation once but don't ask me to do it 5 or 6 times.
I took an Anusara class last Sunday. It was nice, but very slow, meant to relax more than anything else. It left me wanting something more.....I may purchase a Forrest yoga tape to see what that's like. |
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| I guess I don't follow the "clench the glutes" theory of backbending. In standing backward
bends (e.g., Bikram's Ardha Chandrasana), you can tighten the inner thighs and the
lower part of the glutes for stability. If you clench the upper glutes, you really limit
the bending of the lower back. For Camel, the glutes seem to control the initial
descent, especially before you bring hands to heels for support. If you go to Full Camel
(aka Kapotasana), it's all about quad strength (pulling to prevent lumbar collapse)....I don't
see much role for the glutes in that....they should be totally relaxed by the time your
head is between your heels.
RE Cobra, I've never heard "shoulders forward" for that. If you are arching the
upper back, you can be sure the traps are active, especially the lower traps and
rhomoids (i.e., shoulders back). Tightening the glutes seems to help maintain
locked legs on the floor, however.
Anyway, if he fires you, he's suppressing the kind of discussion that helps yoga
grow and keeps teachers thinking. Adhering too closely to Bikram's "teachings"
stops a thinking mind.....
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| Sorry Christine,
I don't kow how I ended up as a guest, I'm the one who asked the question above bay guy. |
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| I'm convinced that losing the glute clenching has helped me heal my back and improve my stability in backbending. I know there is some activity there, just not nearly as much.
Yes, that Cobra thing is strange. There was another colleague of mine there and she, too, remembers Bikram saying that everyone does Cobra wrong and that the upper trap should be flaring more, just like the sides of the cobra's neck does when it rises to strike. Of course, I commented that Bikram also says (in his book) to think of bowing the leg back instead of straightening the knee in Dandayamana Janusirasana . . .
I doubt I'll be fired -- at the conclusion of our conversation, he said it was a great class and that my teaching had really improved. I do feel bad, though. I feel like I was a little disrespectful of his certification, which was not my intention. More like a Freudian slip -- I don't have that much respect for my own certification! The "process" was challenging, no doubt, but I feel that I learned much more on my own than I did at the training itself. My frustration with that (and my injury) is probably making me forget that the Bikram lineage is pretty pure.
Peace,
Gwyn |
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| OH, where to start!
Clenching the glutes: This was common yoga and 1980s aerobics training. It was said to increase stability. Unfortunately, some never learned that clenching = tension and decreased mobility. Nowadays, (and that Yoga International article is older) yoga teachers (Sorry, if this sounds mean, but those usually other than Bikram and those who have actual experience and training other than Yoga Fit) know better. You cannot work a muscle clenched.
As usual, I'll return to the feet on this one.
Lie on your tummy. Put your toes together and let your heels fall out to the side. Draw your abs in and up, which will gently tuck your tailbone. Let the toes straighten out to point to the back. You've just done a great inner spiral/rotation, which gives your lumbar curve the ability to move and your tailbone room to slide in and out. Now, if you use your hands isometrically drawing back as I've discussed in the past, letting the head come up very last (other languaging: lead with the back of your head), keep your elbows in and belly button down on the ground? You have a very dynamic cobra.
Traps: the tops of the shoulders should be very broad. Many tend to crunch their shoulders up around their ears in order to lift their torso higher. That area needs to relax down, but the shoulders definately curve backwards.
Keep in mind that this is a prime example of different methods using asana differently. Bikram is a thorough example of how many traditions would chose as a "don't" for different poses. But then, Bikram would "correct" the heck out of my type of practice, too. Imagine how I have to switch gears as I move from Ashtanga, to Anusara, to Iyengar classes 'round here!
Tibard: I saw no difference in my body or practice whatsoever. In 12 weeks, I never went through without the nausea or being corrected and told to lock my knees (no, I never did). However, keep in mind that I'm not new, so the potential change possibilities were minimized. I practice Ashtanga daily (1.5 hours) I take 3-5 Anusara classes a week (1.5 hours each) and throw in Iyengar drop-ins 2-3 times (another 1.5 hours each) weekly. If one were new to yoga, any yoga is going to seem dramatic. All it was for me was an unnecessary endurance test. I made the most of it and drive my teacher crazy with questions, got a 3 hour interview with him and Bikram on the phone, and can speak with some certainty about the asana. As Gwen has reminded me, though, small things do "morph" and in Janu Sirsasana, for example, the instruction has changed.
Also note that Anusara, Iyengar and sometimes Viniyoga or general "hatha" classes can see slow when you're not forcing the crap out of your body. I consider these classes my theory, as a dancer or piano player has theory, then practice. If you take these classes for what they are, rather than what you WANT, you can learn incredible things about your body and how to use it better in yoga and daily life. You can work harder in these classes than you ever dreamed of doing muscling through a Bikram class. For example, find your satorious or pectinius muscle. Can you move them? I can. If you can even find them, then I'll tell you what difference they make in which asana. Yup. A test.
Gwen, that was a bad slip of the tongue, wasn't it? It is my opinion that although you are able to see merit in some of the Bikram method, you're moving past it. It happens to people who are truly interested in something and have open minds. To be perfectly honest (and remember I am a devoted Ashtangi) a Student of Pattabhi wouldn't necessarily be much of an authority on the finer points of asana, particular Cobra (2nd Series) because Pattabhi doesn't teach them. You'd get more anotomically correct information from an Iyengar or Anusara teacher. That's their thing. That is, unless that Ashtanga teacher happened to have a background in these other types of yoga! (disclaimer [again]: This is my opinion and experience.)
Interesting discussion. I think it's worth reminding everyone that none of this stuff is wrong, just as none is right. Just different methods. Some facilitate freedom of movement, some facilitate energy blocks -- true, but not what's intended, I don't think. The only wrong in yoga, in my opinion, is something that facilitates injury, either in the moment or the RSI of the future.
Yoga isn't black and white because we have that ever-changing human factor!
Christine |
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Injuries from Bikram?
