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Does get worse before it gets better. 8o Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]	View previous thread :: View next thread
Yoga -> Ashtanga Yoga	Message format

Kush

Posted 2004-11-15 7:40 PM (#12248)
Subject: Does get worse before it gets better. 8o

Does get worse before it gets better?. While I can get into nearly full lotus now, my knees; within a short time just start hurting. Feet or leg falls asleep..but I stay awake thats the good news

Already hurt knees a bit from lotus work. Now working gently and timely but even the next day or two I still feel that queasy knee feeling ; like rheumatism or arthritis. Guess still need time and practice!. I read though that one of the things about lotus and especially astanga yoga is that your knee ligaments can get too loose or over stretched.

itchytummy

Posted 2004-11-16 2:03 AM (#12271 - in reply to #12248)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it gets better. 8o

I'd be careful if I were you. If your knees hurt, that a sign to me that your pushing too hard. While finding and pushing your edge is great, you don't want to push past your boundaries into feeling pain. Pain means your body can't take what you're dishing out. If you're feeling pain or an exorbitant amount of discomfort, back off a little and try again later. If you just keep at it you'll eventually go where you want to go.

tbittick

Posted 2004-11-16 9:50 AM (#12279 - in reply to #12248)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it gets better. 8o

Here's the question I've got. What exactly is the benefit of full lotus? Can you half-lotus? And if so what added benefit do you hope full lotus will bring your practice.

I for one can't full lotus an can half lotus but am usually more comfortable for long periods of time just sitting cross-legged or even laying down.

I would LOVE to be able to go full lotus, but the truth is that's ego talking. I'd like to be able to do it because my teacher can and because I see other established yogi's do it. I want to do it because I think it looks cool and my brain wants to do what the cool kids do. But will in somehow enhance my practice?

I'm not so sure.

What I do know is that I spent quite a while sitting in half lotus until I found that I was spending a deal of my meditation time struggling with the discomfort of being in that position rather than sitting cross-legged or laying on my back.

Once I got over the ego stuff of wanting to look like the cool kids, I started sitting in "comfortable" positions and found I've gotten a lot more out of my meditation time.

kulkarnn

Posted 2004-11-16 10:12 AM (#12281 - in reply to #12248)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it g

The benefit of full lotus pose: It is one of the poses where one is completely steady while sitting. Of course, this is possible only when the pose itself is not painful. Some side benefits are flexibility in ankles, knees, hips. Classically, and actually, this pose is more for Meditation sitting than physical exercises. Now, if you do lotus in headstand, shoulderstand, etc, it is a different matter. It is an excellent steady pose for Pranayama, which is NOT a breathing exercise, but which is A Mental Exercise using Breath.

Now, about doing a full lotus pose. I had a student who has been 16 years ballet dancer, very athletic, and very beautiful (sorry). Also, she has been Ashtanga Teacher for long, studied with David Swenson, Freedman, Baptiste, etc. She has never been able to do Lotus Pose and according to her, that ruined her BALLET career. Without teaching here lotus directly, one day I put her into full lotus pose one day, after say 2 months of classes. She started crying and I did not know why. She said 'I can not believe I am in full lotus and am having no pain or difficutly'. This is interesting!!! So, do not give up.

But, that does not mean Lotus Pose is must for Self Realization.

Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org

tbittick

Posted 2004-11-16 12:58 PM (#12288 - in reply to #12281)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it g

kulkarnn - 2004-11-16 10:12 AM Some side benefits are flexibility in ankles, knees, hips

This seems kind of like the chicken and the egg to me. Are these things really a benefit of full lotus... don't you already have to have flexible ankles, knees and hips before you can achieve full lotus?

When I was asking about the benefits of full lotus I meant mostly in relationship to worrying, or hurting oneself, in order to get into the pose.

Full lotus in particular, just seems to be one of those postures that serves as something of a status symbol in some areas...

kulkarnn

Posted 2004-11-16 1:29 PM (#12289 - in reply to #12248)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it g

Yes,

1 To start the full lotus you have to have certain flexibility. If one is totally stiff in knees, ankles, etc. they can not even start full lotus. And, possibly, half lotus fot that matter. They should start where they are. Now, if one is in between full lotus flexibility and half lotus, when they start full lotus it will be not perfect and as they progress they shall get flexibility in knees, ankles, and hips. There is NO doubt about it. That is what happened to my student, but by doing some other kinds of exercises I gave. I did not give her full lotus, as she was emotional about it.

2. Yes, there is a Status Symbol in the Lotus Pose. And, rightly so. Many Sanskrit and Other Texts adore Lotus pose, even those who do not do any exercises adore Lotus pose. This is because many yogis of the past adored it. To make it more blunt, lotus is the most stable sitting pose, if it is not involving pain. One can easily see it. This stability is extremely useful of Pranayama and Meditation.

3. Thus, if one is beyond the possibbility of full lotus, they can do half lotus, or not do any of these two. If it is possible they should first do half lotus. If half lotus is coming well, they should try full lotus. If they can do full lotus, they should preferably do it.

Thanks.

Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org

YogaChick

Posted 2004-11-16 3:59 PM (#12294 - in reply to #12248)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it gets better. 8o

First of all, if you are experiencing joint discomfort for a day or two after practice, you are probably pushing your body a little too far. Listen to those little signals your body is sending before you push yourself into a real injury or joint damage.

Second, are you practicing Virasana to help devlop flexibility in the knee joint? If it is comfortable, you can try Virasana with a tightly rolled towel or mat directly behind your knee joints (so that the mat or towel is pinched between your calf and your thigh, right up against the back of your knees, when you sit into the pose). It will give you a deeper opening sensation in the knee joint.

Unfortunately, it is a fact that some bodies are not built to EVER achieve Full Lotus. Some people have very deep hip sockets, thus inhibiting the ultimate flexibility of the joint. (To simplify, if you were looking only at the skeleton, and tight muscles and connectice tissue were not a factor, a person with a deep hip socket would still have a more limited range of motion than a person with a shallow hip socket.) Deep hip joint structure can lead to knee-joint torque because of the position of the thigh bone between the hip socket and the knee. When somone is practicing hip opening postures, they should always pay close attention that the sensation is in their soft tissue, and that they are not creating a "jamming" sensation in the hip joint itself.

All that having been said, it is frustraging when you are working up to the full pose. Often it is an ego thing, and YES, it looks pretty cool.

Please be careful with your knees and hip joints as you continue to work on the pose.

YogaGuy

Posted 2004-11-16 5:15 PM (#12301 - in reply to #12294)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it gets better. 8o

YogaChick - 2004-11-16 3:59 PM

First of all, if you are experiencing joint discomfort for a day or two after practice, you are probably pushing your body a little too far. Listen to those little signals your body is sending before you push yourself into a real injury or joint damage.

I totally agree

YogaChick - 2004-11-16 3:59 PM
Second, are you practicing Virasana to help devlop flexibility in the knee joint? If it is comfortable, you can try Virasana with a tightly rolled towel or mat directly behind your knee joints (so that the mat or towel is pinched between your calf and your thigh, right up against the back of your knees, when you sit into the pose). It will give you a deeper opening sensation in the knee joint.

I totally disagree. First of all, virasana stretches the knee joint in a different direction. It stretches the inner knee (medial side) and lotus/padmasana stretches the outer knee (the lateral side). Second, virasana requires internal rotation of the thighs which does not help opening the hips for padmasana. Finally, placing a towel behind the knee can cause the knee joint to separate--tearing the ligaments. That's really BAD!!! Never put something behind your knees (or any joint) like that and then apply pressure.

Think about the physics! That towel creates a fulcrum and your thigh becomes a lever and your body weight will create a torquing force that can easily blow out your knees. I can NOT stress enough how BAD an idea that is!!!!

In order to get into lotus, you should develop greater opening of the hip joints--focusing on external rotation of the thighs. You should do pidgeon variations, badha konasana, ardha badha padma paschimotonasana and other various hip opening poses.

YogaChick - 2004-11-16 3:59 PM
Unfortunately, it is a fact that some bodies are not built to EVER achieve Full Lotus. Some people have very deep hip sockets, thus inhibiting the ultimate flexibility of the joint. (To simplify, if you were looking only at the skeleton, and tight muscles and connectice tissue were not a factor, a person with a deep hip socket would still have a more limited range of motion than a person with a shallow hip socket.) Deep hip joint structure can lead to knee-joint torque because of the position of the thigh bone between the hip socket and the knee. When somone is practicing hip opening postures, they should always pay close attention that the sensation is in their soft tissue, and that they are not creating a "jamming" sensation in the hip joint itself.

All that having been said, it is frustraging when you are working up to the full pose. Often it is an ego thing, and YES, it looks pretty cool.

Please be careful with your knees and hip joints as you continue to work on the pose.

Yes, I agree with that.

Edited by YogaGuy 2004-11-16 5:17 PM

YogaGuy

Posted 2004-11-16 5:32 PM (#12302 - in reply to #12248)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it gets better. 8o

Just to reiterate my point. There are two moves in jiu-jitsu that apply this principle: one is called a bicep crunch and the other is called a calf crunch. It works by placing a forearm behind your opponent's elbow or knee joint and then squeezing their arms or legs together by using your legs and/or your bodyweight. A very effective way to make your opponent give up. These two moves have been banned from competition because of the high percentage of injuries associated with them. To put a little more perspective on it: choking your opponent unconscious is allowed; hyperextending your opponent's arm and leg joints is allowed; torquing your opponent's neck is allowed; and twisting their ankles and wrists is allowed. However, they decided to ban the moves that place something under the joints and squeeze.

As I understand it, there are also less nerves in those joints and in those ligaments, so that there is not enough of an early warning before injury occurs. You feel that general discomfort associated with a deep stretch and then something breaks. There is no gradual sense of growing discomfort and pain that would normally signal you to stop. Once the ligaments tear, it is too late.

I hope that gives you an idea of how unsafe a practice it is.

Bay Guy

Posted 2004-11-16 9:55 PM (#12317 - in reply to #12302)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it gets better. 8o

Expert Yogi

Posts: 2479
2000

Location: A Blue State

Just a note on Lotus...

The stretch required to get into lotus is not a stretch of the knee. Knees
do not and should not bend sideways. They bend in one direction only
(front to back). The rotation you need is in the upper leg and hip. That's
where the muscles that need to stretch are. "Flexible knees" is a euphemism for
this rotation. Do hip opening poses and quad stretches. Don't ever try to make
you knee bend sideways...

Also, to follow up on Keith's comment about lack of early warning, I heard something
very much like this from an experienced practitioner of extreme yoga poses. He
said that one day his knee just went "pop", after 20 years or so of daily practice.
He didn't say exactly what went (sounded like the meniscus..), but it took a
long time to heal and he doesn't do such yoga anymore. That story scares
the sh!t out of me... I've made a habit of watching experienced yogis to see
how they are aging. Some processes can be stopped, but others can be avoided.
Don't force anything, and respect you body's limits.

tourist

Posted 2004-11-16 10:02 PM (#12318 - in reply to #12302)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it gets better. 8o

Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
5000

I think there can be a place for putting space makers between the thigh and calf but they should obviously be smaller than a muscular arm or leg

We often use a folded hand towel or face cloth or a small piece of mat so the depth of the item is maybe an inch or less of easily compactable material.

Lotus is a beautiful thing. Knee surgery is not a beautiful thing. Weigh these and find a balance you can live with. Me, I opt for no lotus, no surgery and I am happy with that

Bay Guy

Posted 2004-11-16 10:05 PM (#12319 - in reply to #12289)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it g

Expert Yogi

Posts: 2479
2000

Location: A Blue State

kulkarnn - 2004-11-16 1:29 PM

To make it more blunt, lotus is the most stable sitting pose, if it is not involving pain. One can easily see it. This stability is extremely useful of Pranayama and Meditation.

I agree completely. For sitting, there's no pose that is as stable as lotus or as good for
sitting for long periods of time, as for Pranayama.

Kush

Posted 2004-11-17 3:13 AM (#12336 - in reply to #12248)
Subject: RE: Does get worse before it gets better. 8o

Doing hip openers and resting from full lotus enabled me to do it later on without a hitch. But I realize now that I have to go back to really being carefull or not as generous in trying to always do full lotus. I use a lot self massage, heat rub now and cold pack now..so that I can stretch out my knees/legs without total achiness. Fortunately, I can still do the rest of my usual yoga session without a problem once I am properly warmed up. As for tearing or pop that I have experienced it in fact and whenever I move too deeply I can hear it slightly. My knees have definitely changed in terms of how the caps feel, shift, and look since my full lotus troubles. I thought I learned my lesson..but can't blame me for at least venturing again.

I was able to do full lotus when I was a kid and teen; oh well more supple then and, no lower back troubles. I found a lot of people with back problems doing yoga btw.

As far as the benefit to full lotus...it has to do with stablizing or locking the enegies in a particular way...or another way to put it is enable the flow of enegies in a beneficially. Full Lotus is like a knot in a way...or figure 8...which is a path the kundalini is supposed to form on it jouney up and down the spine. Full lotus is to promote better concentration (which for me I have found true...when it was pain free for a short while I felt really in tune)..and it helps the flow of energies thoroughout the body and effects our chakras as ...so the whole thing has a lot to do with aiding it the develpment of higher conciousness to look at it from that aspect and health aspect as well. Theres much more to it all than my very basic explanation. Best to look into it more for yourself. Full lotus is not the only way of course ..
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/lofiversion/index.php/t8719.html

http://1stholistic.com/Meditation/hol_meditation_posture_burmese_Egyptian.htm#Egyptian

I don't think full lotus is for show or ego value..but perhaps people are and do project that on to the pose loosing the real value. Though there is a accomplishment factor to it. As a basic analogy the same is realized when a baby takes its first steps and finally learns to walk unaided or without falling. I think what happens too is the way lotus and yoga in general tend to put forth commercially and just for the physical part of it only too often..the wholeness is always pooped by some as being unecessary or too difficult. A lot of things worth it are, though not all. I don't think not doing full lotus is the end of the world!. Maybe the beginning of finding out more hopefully.

Thanks everyone for replies and insights!!

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