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| the glorious forward bends...calming and relaxing, a time to look inward.
what would be the scientific explanation for why they relax us/calm us/help us sleep?
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| They're also said to help with high blood pressure. Scientifically I don't know why, just that I get the strange sensation of calmness whenever I work my nose closer to the knees. Not that I'm good with that but doing quite decently regarding the rather big bump in the middle of my body that always seems to be in the way. So all kind of forward bends are in my favorite group of asanas.
Maybe it's the fact that there's not much to care about in terms of alignment/technique and you don't have to open yourself. Also there's not much of visual distraction when all you can see is your own legs. I find that rather comforting, relaxing and yes, calming. |
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| there is something about your heart being lower than your spine in forward bends but i just dont know how to get my head around it?
i just re-read and it sounds like i am trying to get into some funky asana!! 
someone out there must know....specifically i am thinking about why some asanas help you to sleep. |
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| Dear easternsun and afroyogi:
Please do not be offended with my question. Question: a) Are you getting relaxing sensation as you do forward bend or afterwards? b) Are you in a position of using them in place of Relaxation, called as Shavasana, after the exercises c) What kind of sensation you get when you do other poses.
After you answer these, I shall comment on your original queries.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| maybe i am not making myself clear (happens all the time!)
some poses are invigorating (backbends) and some are calming (forward bends). i was wondering what the scientific explanation for this would be. why do forward bends at night help us sleep?
light on yoga mentions something in regards to your heart being lower than your spine; could someone explain in to me why this is beneficial and/or how it is helpful??
neel, no offense taken but i didnt really understand the questions...do i replace savasana with pashchimotthanasana? no
but how is that going to help you explain the science of forward bends - i am curious!! |
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| I don't know of any scientific reason, but psychologically, bending forward closes the body in on itself making you feel protected (curling up in a ball is a defence mechanism in many animals for e.g.), whereas back bends typically open you right up and place you in vulnerable position. Perhaps the backbends operate on the fight or flight bodily response whereas forward bends are fetal-like and therefore comforting?
Fee |
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| I note the repeated use of the word "us" in these comments--forward bends are frustrating punishments for me so there's no calming or relaxing in the absoulute collective noun "us." |
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| Bruce - 2004-12-16 9:00 PM
I note the repeated use of the word "us" in these comments--forward bends are frustrating punishments for me so there's no calming or relaxing in the absoulute collective noun "us."
ok bruce, i should have said "theoretically speaking" they calm us. 
i am going to take you to task on the frustrating punishments though - it cant be that bad!! really, it is yoga afterall!  |
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| I'm not sure of the science of yoga specific, but I know that if you're feeling faint, hyperventilating, dizzy, panicky...you lower your head to help recover. And yep, that's because it puts your head lower than your heart and makes it easier to get blood/oxygen back to the brain.
Be Well
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| Dear Bruce: Thanks for that comment related to forward bends not making you relaxed. That has something to do with what I am going to tell easternsun later.
Also, I like the explanation about baby curling up to relax or feeling safe, etc. However, there is a difference between that and the forward bends which are done intentionally with force of bending forwards, they are not instinctive. To make it more useful: Almost all Yoga Poses in Hatha are done intentionally and therefore should not be confused with the natural instincts of humans/other-animals. (IF you wish to discuss this further, another thread shall be needed.)
Dear Easternsun: Please be patient with why I am asking such a question. Let me make my questions clear: a) Does your relaxation feeling come because you read the Light On Yoga or it is always coming without any psycho prompting? To give a very wild example: If you take a sumptuous lunch and then put your fingers into the throat, you shall always feel vomition, regardless of what any book may say. However, sometimes students get certain feelings which the books state because they read books before doing the yoga pose. (To tell you the truth, and I am sure of whay I am stating, certain things written in Yoga Books, including Light on Yoga and HathaYogaPradipika are in pure science sense WRONG, and they are Correct in Contexual sense ONLY. For example, Geeta Iyengar's Gem For Women, shows her sister doing Yoga including Headstand in advanced stages of pregnancy. This is WRONG for average Yoga Student.)
b) About Shavasana: What I mean is : Would you feel comfortable to equate the Relaxation obtained from Shavasana to that of the forward bends. If NOT, you can not state forward bend is relaxation. Because, Relaxation is relaxation. And, whether you obtain it by Shavasana or drinking alcohol, it is same relaxation. Only, the one obtained by alcohol has very very bad effects later. To become rich by winning lottery is same as becoming rich by parents death if they were queen/king. Only technicalities are different.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Ok, please don't throttle me for this if I am wrong, but being a biology geek I will try some spontaneous conjecture. I would GUESS that it has something to do with (yes your head being lower than your heart) which triggers changes in your sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system (via the vagus nerve which runs right by your heart). This is linked to blood pressure and heart rate and regulating between 'fight or flight' response versus 'relaxation/digestion.'
Amy |
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| Neel, I'll try to answer your question in the best way I'm able with my very restricted knowledge about yoga science:
My answer to easternsun was mostly regarding to paschimottasana since this is my most favorite forward bend and the first that came to my mind. I can stay put on my ass and all I have to do is bending forward from the hips. For a lazy guy like me with usually bad technique that's very relaxing compared to other asanas. Still I love other forward bending asanas too.
Still paschimottasana is active work, trying to get the head/rib cage more down with every exhalation.
Yes, I feel the relaxing effect while in the pose not afterwards. Because afterwards there are other more challenging asanas to come on which I have to concentrate and the relaxation is gone.
And no, I wouldn't confuse any forward bend with relaxation or use it as a substitute for relaxation.
You're right assuming that I only started recognizing it as calming after I heard my teacher talking about that effect. So there might indeed be a big deal of psychological conditioning involved in the recognization of the claimed effects on our minds.
Edited by afroyogi 2004-12-15 4:38 PM
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| I shall still wait for Easternsun to reply my questions just like Dear Afroyogi did. Now, this is my final response:
flipcat is almost correct. This is whay the forward bends are relaxing. Yes, it has to do with parasympathetic nervous system, and then effect on blood pressure, etc. But, the catch or incompleteness in this arguement is that 'There is a limit to this feeling' which means if one does a forward bend, the relaxation does not increase with the time one spends in the pose. It will ultimately become NON relaxing. Thus, it is not all to do with the nervous system and blood pressure.
Better way to look at this phenomenon is as follows: A human being is generally active and not relaxed when the upper torso and head are above the waist level. It is most active when one is vertical with head at the top. (Headstand being a Yoga Pose is exclded from this arguement because that is not how the person stays naturally and one has to be most alert to stay in Headstand so as not to fall). Now when one bends forward, one is least active or least energy needing depending on a)amount of forward bend b) usage of least attention. this means if one is not stretching and just doing a forward bend, it will be more relaxing. If one is bent more so as to reach the knees it will be more relaxing. If one is doing a forward bend without much stretch and is able to hang the head at the knee level it will be more relaxing. ETC. (to complete the Headstand arguement, if one hangs oneself in Headstand, it will be more relaxing as no attention or alertness is needed to keep oneself in headstand.
Have a Relaxing Holiday
neel kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| oops to complete more: That is why Brother Bruce does not feel them relaxing because he has to apply action to do the forward bend. Also, when one does forward bends, the Stomach should be empty and the intenstines should not be bloated.
Neel Kulkarni |
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| thanks to all of you for responding.
i am asking this question because i have read many times that paschimotthanasana and other forward bends are helpful for sleep. some articles go as far as to say that they will help insomniacs.
this is not a personal question - just something i would like to see backed up if there is any medical/scientific evidence.
often in life we believe things because someone we trust tells us it is so - i like to look at the explanation/information from all sides. it is precisely because i dont believe everything i read that i ask questions like this!!
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| kulkarnn - 2004-12-16 1:35 AM
Also, I like the explanation about baby curling up to relax or feeling safe, etc. However, there is a difference between that and the forward bends which are done intentionally with force of bending forwards, they are not instinctive. To make it more useful: Almost all Yoga Poses in Hatha are done intentionally and therefore should not be confused with the natural instincts of humans/other-animals. (IF you wish to discuss this further, another thread shall be needed.)
Dear Easternsun: Please be patient with why I am asking such a question. Let me make my questions clear: a) Does your relaxation feeling come because you read the Light On Yoga or it is always coming without any psycho prompting? To give a very wild example: If you take a sumptuous lunch and then put your fingers into the throat, you shall always feel vomition, regardless of what any book may say. However, sometimes students get certain feelings which the books state because they read books before doing the yoga pose. (To tell you the truth, and I am sure of whay I am stating, certain things written in Yoga Books, including Light on Yoga and HathaYogaPradipika are in pure science sense WRONG, and they are Correct in Contexual sense ONLY. For example, Geeta Iyengar's Gem For Women, shows her sister doing Yoga including Headstand in advanced stages of pregnancy. This is WRONG for average Yoga Student.)
b) About Shavasana: What I mean is : Would you feel comfortable to equate the Relaxation obtained from Shavasana to that of the forward bends. If NOT, you can not state forward bend is relaxation. Because, Relaxation is relaxation. And, whether you obtain it by Shavasana or drinking alcohol, it is same relaxation. Only, the one obtained by alcohol has very very bad effects later. To become rich by winning lottery is same as becoming rich by parents death if they were queen/king. Only technicalities are different.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org
neel, i realize that english is not your native language (it isnt even my regular language these days!  )
i am having trouble deciphering your messages.
take the word relax out of the equation. let us just say that i am asking a general question with regards to how forward bends - more specifically - paschimotthanasana can be helpful to those who are having trouble to sleep.
"pyscho prompting" is being a little hard on mr iyengar dont you think??
it is because i dont believe everything that i read or because i want to justify that facts that i ask questions 
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Expert Yogi
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Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2004-12-15 5:06 PM
oops to complete more: That is why Brother Bruce does not feel them relaxing because he has to apply action to do the forward bend. Also, when one does forward bends, the Stomach should be empty and the intenstines should not be bloated.
Neel Kulkarni
It's certainly no fun at all to do forward bends on a full stomach...especially the deeper
ones like Yoganidrasana or Supta Kurmasana. Anything at all in the gut is bad news
for twisting in lotus as well, since the heel is usually pressing heavily into the lower abdomen.
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Location: A Blue State | easternsun - 2004-12-15 6:14 PM
thanks to all of you for responding.
i am asking this question because i have read many times that paschimotthanasana and other forward bends are helpful for sleep. some articles go as far as to say that they will help insomniacs.
It's mentioned in Light on Pranayama that Bhramari Pranayama (bumble bee
pranayama) is good for insomnia. My own experience supports that. After doing BP I fall
asleep quickly. |
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| kulkarnn - 2004-12-16 1:35 AM
Geeta Iyengar's Gem For Women, shows her sister doing Yoga including Headstand in advanced stages of pregnancy. This is WRONG for average Yoga Student.)
What do you mean????? I thought this is one of the best books for women I have ever seen. (But to be honest, even I was wondering how a pregnant lady is doing such poses.). But in that book its says, " These Asana can be practiced during the pregnancy" As I know she and her farther both are great Yogis. If this is not a good thing to do , do you think they would publish a book like this??? In the same time this book is translated to many European languages too and published all over the word. If its no good for a normal yoga student why havent they said so ?? Do you think they are such irresponsible people???
Edited by Thushara 2004-12-15 10:34 PM
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| Oh Dear!!! Now, I have to respond to all of you one by one. I do not believe my English has caused any confusion this time, I am sure. In fact, I got 76 percentile on the TOEFL exam, that means I was better than 76 percent who appeared for it all over the world. Anyway, let me go one by one.
Easternsun: Initially I asked 3 questions. Affroyogi answered them correctly. i was waiting on your answers, which I did not get. Considering Afroyogi's response, i answered your original question in the previous two posts of mine. This is history of what happened. Now, let me go back to your last statements: a) You heard that Pashchimattanasana is helpful for sleep disorder or insomniacs. Yes, it is only somewhat helpful, not very helpful. Why it is helpful is given in my previous two answer. Thus, it is only helpful to some extent and only in some cases. Thus, it is Contextual. It can NOT be used as a means to help each case of sleep disorder. (As compared to my example : In each case of putting fingers into the throat after a sumptuous meal, vomiting should occur.) b) Now, your next statement. It is hard to call 'psycho prompting' for Iyengars. First, let me apologize if my statement gave that impression. I respect them a lot and they were my neighbours for 30 years. They know me fully from my birth. Now, even then, my statement holds, in the sense that many Yoga Books, including Light On Yoga and even Sanskrit texts which I have fully studied, make statements which are in the pure sense WRONG. This means that they are made only in a contextual or limited sense. They can not hold always true. Similar to the example already shown in paragraph a) earlier by me. I did NOT mean Iyengars are doing Psycho prompting. Rather, I meant readers get psycho prompted, as correctly admitted by Afroyogi.
Bay Guy: In case, I made it not sufficiently clear. There are two different points, which I meant. a) Brother Bruce being not flexible or whatever the case is has to apply lot of effort to do the forward bends, and that is why it is not relaxing to him. b) This is a different point, and not related to Brother Bruce. While doing forward bends, the stomach should be empty and intestines should not be bloated. c) And, lastly, to repeat Bumble Bee Pranayama or whatever else, is NOT always a perfect solution for sleep order. It helps to some extent and does NOT always work in each case. It is contextual.
Thushara: What I mean when I say headstands and such poses are not good for average Pregnant Women? Geeta Iyengar's book shows that these poses can be done by Pregnant women. They do not recommend these poses to each pregnant women. I know Geeta's sister who is doing those poses. She has performed Yoga for a prolonged time of years from childhood and advanced yoga poses, not just standing in tadasana. In her case, they are showing that such poses can be done by pregnant person. If another 20 pregnant women in your knowledge show me that they can do them that easily I can accept that every pregnant women should do them. Thus, what they wrote is contextual in the case of advanced practitioner. Again, even then, they are done under supervision of most experienced and respected Mr. Iyengar, present in person. Read Mr. Iyengar's biography and you shall know what I am talking.,
I hope I am clear this time. Forward bends are good for calming the person, only to certain extents, and only in some cases. I did not mean any criticism to Mr Iyengar, who knows me very well.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
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| I agree with Neel that one of the aims of Gem for Women was to show what was POSSIBLE for women to do (pregnant and non-pregnant), not always what all women SHOULD do. To my knowledge, it was the first book of yoga for women and particularly in India, at that point it was still believed that it wasn't possible or healthy for women to do some of the things that are shown. Remember, it was not all that long ago that the western world clued in that women could run a marathon without somehow "damaging" their delicate little selves. What Neel is saying is that even though many women can and do perform these asana during pregnancy, not all women should. Just as I should not and WILL not (mark my words!) do a marathon - ever.
As for "psycho" prompting, I think it could be language there, Neel! Perhaps if you ahd said "psychological" it would have been better received. We tend to read psycho as "crazy, insane, freaked-out"   rather than "directed to the psyche."
As for forward bends being calming, in my experience both as teacher and practitioner, they certainly can be, but it very much depends on how the pose is performed. It is funny Neel, that you have been taken to task for making sweeping, absolute statements, but this time you are objecting to a fairly benign, well-documented generalization given by someone else 
I too wish we had more scientific evidence of how yoga works but it has so far always been an experiential practice and as George Sheehan, the late running guru said, we are each an experiement of one. We have to continue to work and rework our practices to see how they affect our individual bodies. Generally, I would suggest that a well-rounded asana and pranayama practice would go a long way to improve sleep quality. Specifically, I would suggest trying a well-supported setu bandha sarvangasana with a longish hold (5 or more minutes) before bed to see what happens for you.
As for years of experience, I have to go with BKS for that - he is now 86 years old and has been practicing for at least 70 years. He has seen thousands of bodies and his knowledge of yoga (all of yoga) is so very vast, I will take his word for how the asana affect the body generally. If he is making psychological suggestions that I am internalizing, I am ok with that. I'm all for a placebo effect if it works!  |
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|flipcat is almost correct|
Neel, with sincere intentions (no sarcasm THIS time), I take that as an incredible compliment coming from you (in spite of the fact that I had no 'attachment' to being correct or incorrect). For one small second, I feel almost
Amy |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2004-12-15 11:38 PM
Bay Guy: In case, I made it not sufficiently clear. There are two different points, which I meant. a) Brother Bruce being not flexible or whatever the case is has to apply lot of effort to do the forward bends, and that is why it is not relaxing to him. b) This is a different point, and not related to Brother Bruce. While doing forward bends, the stomach should be empty and intestines should not be bloated. c) And, lastly, to repeat Bumble Bee Pranayama or whatever else, is NOT always a perfect solution for sleep order. It helps to some extent and does NOT always work in each case. It is contextual.
Brother Neel,
I have no comment on a), I agree with b), and for c) I am sure that I never said Bhramari
pranayama was a universal cure for insomnia. It does help me relax before bed.
Now, I do know a yoga pose for which anyone doing the pose is guaranteed to have sleep.
However, it can have an annoying influence on others who are awake.
It is Snorasana. |
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science anyone??
