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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State | Does an emphasis on precise form come to interfere with a flowing practice?
It seems that one could devote an entire practice to aligning Tadasana, but
isn't it also important to keep the practice flowing from pose to pose, through
a variety of asanas? Iyengar teachers and Ashtanga teachers seem to have a
totally different attitude on this. I've always tried to remember the Iyengar
alignments when I do actual practices, which is to say that I can't think of Iyengar
class as yoga practice b/c there's no flow in the classes. |
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| When I taught Hatha Yoga, I began with Tadasana and then went to Sun Salutation as you know is a Vinyasa to warm up the entire body. I would do several sequences of Sun Salutation on both right and left feet and then similar to Ashtanga Yoga, place poses in along with Sun Salutation. You can still work with alignment once you in the poses and then continue with the transiton of I believe plank, cobra, downward dog. then your desired pose. When I first began teaching Sun Salutation, I worked on form vs flow for weeks on my class. I worked in a gym, so everyone wanted more flow, but when they had to hold the pose in Sun Salutation, they then understood why form and strength were so important. I hope I helped some to answer your question. I eventually went to Ashtanga Vinyasa.
Namaste2 |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| It is interesting that the poularity of flow has led people to believe that it is the only way to practice yoga. It is very nice and makes a good workout, feels "yoga-y" and looks pretty but is not the one and only way to practice any more than a static practice is the one and only way. One really clear distinction to make is that an Iyengar class is not a "practice," just as you suggest, Bay Guy. It is a class, a place where learning takes place. In practice an Iyengar yogi might take breaks and stop between poses or might not, depending on the needs of the body and the purpose of the practice for that individual, that day. Another thing that is good to know is tht even though the class stops and starts and may spend time examining some part of a pose, the sequence of the poses within the class is carefully thought-out and very important. Along with taking appropriate care of the body (warming up, cooling down etc.) the sequences have various effects on other mind/body systems and can be tailored to the needs of the student, the class in general or whatever. For example, we have been doing lots of backbends lately, which helps lift everyone out of the winter doldrums.  |
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| I agree with Tourist. A class is a class where instruction is offered. A practice is where you take what you learn and put it to use.
I look at my Iyengar and Anusara classes as theory. I use those classes to get the alignment and form into my body, so I move through my practice with safety and precision. At least with as much precision as that with which my body is capable. I think I've said this a few times before! 
Flow, Vinyasa, and Ashtanga teachers, etc., have a different idea because that's not what they're teaching. Pattabhi's famous line of "In time all things come" has been interperted as "Nike" or "just do it." When these types of teachers are teaching, they're usually teaching a sequence vs how to do the sequence. Do you see the difference?
This is why I rant about Intro to Astanga or a Beginning Flow classes not necessarily being Intro to YOGA, or Beginning YOGA. I don't, on the whole, feel these classes are for beginners for that reason. Can you see my point?
In the best of both worlds, a student would have form and alignment permeating their body, so when they chose to move through a flow, they don't have to think about what they're doing. It will happen naturally, from training. That student would most likely never incurr injury of the repetative stress type, either, for that very reason.
C. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | tourist - 2005-02-05 10:29 AM
One really clear distinction to make is that an Iyengar class is not a "practice," just as you suggest, Bay Guy. It is a class, a place where learning takes place. In practice an Iyengar yogi might take breaks and stop between poses or might not, depending on the needs of the body and the purpose of the practice for that individual, that day. Another thing that is good to know is tht even though the class stops and starts and may spend time examining some part of a pose, the sequence of the poses within the class is carefully thought-out and very important. Along with taking appropriate care of the body (warming up, cooling down etc.) the sequences have various effects on other mind/body systems and can be tailored to the needs of the student, the class in general or whatever.
Hi Glenda --- I think we agree on all points. What I'm really wondering about, and maybe
haven't expressed well, is the question of whether one's practice should aim for smooth
progress through a sequence, or whether one should simply spend 30 minutes (say) aligning
each pose. I'm thinking about goals (since the ideal answer is move along with perfect
alignment at each step and sequencing that promotes it). Maybe the question doesn't
have an answer (like asking "cars or apples?"). There are some poses that I don't think
can be done without good alignment and sequencing (Eka Pada Rajakapotasana I, for
example, is a train wreck if your alignment isn't almost perfect and it strains the lumbar spine
if you don't precede it with asanas to open the chest). There are others poses where I find
aligning to be tedious if I spend more than 30 seconds on it.
Then there's the question of "flow", by which I mean going smoothly from pose to pose,
not necessarily a vinyasa practice (which would use sun salutations to connect individual
poses). For example, the Eka Pada Sirasana cycle makes a wonderful flow if you run through
the whole sequence on one side, exit via Eka Pada Koundinyasana II (I get I & II confused,
but mean the version that's not twisted), then chataranga-updog-downdog-dandasana and
do the cycle on the other side. By the time that's over, you've done roughly 25 poses in
a string. In comparison, you could envision a practice that spent most of its attention on
the alignment of (say) Skandasana. I would enjoy the string of poses, and learn from the
alignment practice without particularly enjoying it --- and when I encountered Skandasana
again I would hold it for ten breaths and then move to Buddhasana without spending
lots of time on alignment. I'm wondering whether there's any reason to favor an aligning
yoga practice over a flowing one....sigh. I'm still not sure I've put the question clearly.
Regarding Iyengar sequencing, I will simply add that my teacher's sequences range from
excellent to brilliant and that most of my person practice is built on sequences from
LOY and my teacher.
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| Dear Brother Bay Guy:
Thoughts for you to ponder on:
1. There are different benefits to be reaped from a Static Poses and Flow of Poses. So, both should be included in one's own practice.
2. Static Poses are more beneficial than flow for Therapeutics, without any doubt.
3. Static Poses are harder than Flow of Poses though it seems otherwise.
4. Flow of Poses have some benefits but these benefits are overtaken by the loss if the poses are NOT done properly, and unfortunately 90 percent of the people (actually 99 percent) performing flows, including the senior Ashtanga Students, are doing them wrongly, thus not getting the real benefits from the poses. But, of course, they get some different benefit from the flow which is different from the Static Poses.
5. Ideally, a class should be used for learning what is to be used for practice at home later. Unfortunately, the classes are used for practice, for social gatherings, time pass, etc. rather than learning ground. But, of course the later is better than NOT doing anything at all. But for a real yoga student, the former is better, and later can be mixed due to today's social environment.
6. However, the Yoga Practice must result in happiness, which is the purspose of all Yoga Practice. If it does not and make you more grumpy, egotistic, etc. it is NOT good. Of course, happiness does not mean gratification.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Dear Brother Neel,
I agree with all six of your points, which are consistent with my own experience.
As for my question, I need to think a bit more.
Bay Guy |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Ah, I had a slight niggling thought that you might be talking about "flow" as opposed to vinyasa. That IS a cars vs. apples kind of thing. To me, the brilliance of the Iyengar system in particular is that the answer is simply "yes". You should flow and you should spend 30 minutes aligning your tadasana - each at the appropriate time and for the appropriate reasons. As Neel said, for theraputic reasons, long, static and usually supported poses are key. For building strength and stamina, moving skilfully and swiftly through the poses, either in vinyasa or one by one is great. If you are agitated and restless, long holdings in a long, well aligned series with lots of balancings might be the right thing, but if you are mentally tired and sluggish you might want to whip through some up dog/down dog/chataranga combos and pump out a few dozen urdhva danurasanas or something. (yeah, that's what I do...NOT!  ) Actually, when you know your sequence, even a very slow, static progression of fully supported restorative poses can have a nice flow.
Now for a beginner, I think it is fair to say that more time needs to be spent on alignment and less on getting into a flow. For an experienced student, the bahiranga sadhana (yama, niyama, asana) is already well established so moving into good alignment is somewhat second nature and you can move safely, if not with complete perfection, from pose to pose without internal or external injury. OTOH, as you say, there are some poses which demand that we come as close to perfection in alignment as possible and it behooves us (I love that word...) to pay attention and slow down regardless of how lovely the flow seems to be at the time.
Basically, I believe that your practice is your own. It is your time on your mat with yourself. To paraphrase Mother Theresa, it really isn't up to "them" (any external source or expert) it is between you and God. And to paraphrase Brother Neel, your practice should make you happy, otherwise why do it?  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Thanks, Glenda. It's interesting when I hit one of those alignment-required poses
in a sequence...10 minutes may elapse just to get it to where it feels right. And
that's totally different than 10 minutes holding headstand.
For now, I am going to go do pranayama -- my communion, as it were. |
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| Maybe it's appropriate to compare it to car driving? Well, it's nice to flow through the traffic, elegantly lane splitting, swinging through the curves and stuff and just go with the flow. That's daily practice.
But a beginner in driving school (class) sometimes just needs to spend the whole lesson on an abondoned parking lot to learn the finer things of how to swerve into his space backwards (alignment).
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| That's been interesting. For my classes are where I do more flow. My home practice is where I focus more on alignment and tweaking the pose. So in class I'm more Ashtanga, at home more Iyengar. Almost all of my yoga instructors are vinyassa based. The ones I like most however use a blend of vinyassa with a concern for alignment.
Edited by MrD 2005-02-09 2:04 PM
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| This is and interesting thread. I point out the Iyengar teaches some vinyasa sequences, that he learned yoga from the same man as Mr.Jois who was Krishnamacharya. Both teachers went in somewhat different directions with what they taught and currently teach. I went to vinyasa yoga from Iyengar so I had a good grounding in alignment and form which was an asset. I heard concerns from Iyengar teachers about vinyasa yoga and hot yoga being unsafe. They felt that enough time wasn't spent in poses long enough for beginners to learn them and they feared injury. My experience was that hot yoga meant soft, supple muscles and that helped prevent injury. In a vinyasa class, one may pass through basic poses again and again and hear slightly different instructions each time. There is a chance to refine poses as one practices more and more. Part of learning is from a teacher's verbal instruction, some is from watching, and much is from one's own body. There is much value to each style of yoga and it is a personal choice to practice what one resonates with most at any given time. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
I would be interested in learning more about Iyengar's vinyasa sequences.
A few books (the one by Mehta in London, eg) give some "jumpings" in an
appendix, and from time to time my teacher will include some Surya Namaskar
vinyasas. Some of the sequences in LOY are *obviously* vinyasa-esq if you
read the text and think it through. Iyengar classes are never really structured
around vinyasa, however; and maybe for good reason, since they are working
specific poses in depth. What this leaves is a vacuum on the process of motion,
I think, and a lot of excellent yoga is contained in making transitions from pose
to pose.
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| Nyasa means step. Vinyasa means step by step progression. Thus any Yoga Exercise where one goes from step to step, either from an easier form of one pose to another, or from one pose to another (sometimes counter pose, or sometimes non counter pose), this is Called Vinyasa. For example, all sun salutations are Vinyasa.
Flow of Poses has advantages of focusing mind on the flow, coreography, artistic side, etc. However, the flow of poses benefit is more than balanced out negatively if the poses are NOT performed well during the flow. And, I can say this without hesitation that this does happen in the Ashtanga Style students around 95 percent times.
Again the result of injury in Ashtanga is NOT due to repetition of the same pose. It is due to improperly doing poses, and trying to keep up with the pace when one is not ready for that much work.
The heating of body in the Hot Yoga does not make injury less. It messes up the metabolism of the body and the sweating and flexibility are reaction to the Heat which is unnatural for the Human Body beyond the room temperature. (Also, the cold temperature below room temperature is bad for th ebody and the reaction will be to contract the body.) Prolonged practice of this shall result in body becoming inflexible in the room temperature.
If one wants to see Iyengar Style Flow of Poses, there is NOT much available. Because the flows are not taught. But, one can make them up while doing the Iyengar style poses.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| >>the flow of poses benefit is more than balanced out negatively if the poses are NOT performed well during the flow. And, I can say this without hesitation that this does happen in the Ashtanga Style students around 95 percent times.<<
Absolutely! And Christine, our resident ashtanga lover, would agree with you 100% |
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| Absolutely.
It isn't often that we are on the same wave length, but on this I agree completely.
It works!
C. |
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| Wow.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Hi all, my first post here... in a very relevant thread.
I do one class a week of Iyengar, and one class a week of Astanga. I think that they perfectly compliment each other, but the discussion of 'form vs flow' is very important.
If someone was all 'flow', then, as many of you have pointed out, your form is no good. In my astanga class, I am a little shocked at the form of many students - down dog with lets bent, arms not straight, and yet the same students are doing the padmasana sequences in the primary series. Its like they are not aware that all of yoga is found in every pose, and that the number of asanas in the series you do is really no measure at all of your proficiency.
What is the other extreme? All 'form'. Grasping at form tangles the brain. You are given so much instruction, so many details, that you are clouded by your effort to concentrate on all those things at once. You have to let go of your intense desire to 'perfect' a post through conscious thought, because the authority on when your pose is 'correct' is your body. You have to listen to it, because it speaks very quietly to begin with. By attempting to empty your mind in a pose - your imbalances will show themself. Yoga is 99% practice. The theory will only make sense when your awareness is good enough, and awareness comes from practice, not theory.
Astanga makes me stronger. I am made to do poses that are very very difficult initially, but get easier in time. In my Iyengar classes, these poses aren't even attempted because our form won't be good enough. But there is so much to learn from tyring to doing poses that are really really hard.... you won't be able to do it to begin with, but thats the point, you try, you move on, you practice it again some other time. There is no reaching for the form, just acceptance....
I totally agree with what others have said here about class vs practise. My practice is at home, where I can really listen to my body, and do the repitition that will make form automatic. People who only practice yoga in class are really missing out. My Iyengar class gives me the teaching, the understanding, the focus, and my Astanga class strengthens me, using the form I have learnt from Iyengar.
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Form versus flow
