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Just a random query: i notice that pattabhi jois makes a point to indicate his brahmin status- i was wondering if there is a relationship between yoga teachers and cast in India or even if there are certain types of yoga that certain types of people do... |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State |
That's an interesting question......In America, we are very down on class
distinctions (unless they come from money  )
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Quite complicated thread.. I might not comment  , Kulkrann will be the best person to answer your question |
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| Please speccify what the statement of Respected Pathabi Jois related to his Brahmin Status is.
Brahmin in the Indian context means a person who is interested in Study of Scriptures or Sprituality so that Brahman is understood, and is NOT only interested but try to do such a study. Others may just be interested, but not strongly. But, the Brahmin is strongly interested, including Practice.
Now, this concept later got into Caste. Because, those who were real brahmins as defined above also gave rise to children who had similar inclination, due to genetics as well as environment. For example, a son of a strong musician (not just a lower grade music lover) is benefited by the genetics of a musician as well as environment such as witnessing music from birth. Thus, those who are born of brahmins became a Brahmin Caste. Originally, the Caste was called Varna, meaning only by the Tendency. That is a Warrior can give a birth to a Brahmin by Varna. But, later on it became Castism.
Now, as Yoga is basically practce and principles of Brahman and getting to the realization of it, Yoga definitely was closer to the Brahmin Varna and later Brahmin Caste.
However, there was never any requirement, or condition imposed in Vedas, India, or Hinduism as for association between Brahinism and Yoga.
Examples of Yogis born out NON Brahmin Caste: 1. Lord Krishna the Yogeshwara - the only complete Incarnation of Vishnu. 2. Lord Rama 3. Swami Vivekananda 4. Bhishma
There is a saying the Upanishadic times: na rishinaam jatih vidyate. There is NO caste of a Rishi that is a fully realized Yogi.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Neel Bhai wrote: Examples of Yogis born out NON Brahmin Caste: 1. Lord Krishna the Yogeshwara - the only complete Incarnation of Vishnu. 2. Lord Rama 3. Swami Vivekananda 4. Bhishma and Cyndi Bahin - responded: Don't forget Bikram Choudhury - Chetria Satyam Bhai - inquired about Neel Bhai looking like a priest?? Cyndi and new puppy named "Yoda" (Sanskrit) who is up bright and early this morning doing puppy things like I'm going to teach him Downward Dog..like the going to sleep one, LOL!! P.S. Someone mentioned something about Americans and money...trust me this has nothing to do about money. Some of the lowest caste people are some of the weathiest and some (I said some) Brahmins are the poorest. The old Brahmin generation in Nepal out in the countryside especially, still will not eat food cooked by a lower caste person, nor will they allow them in their house. It has nothing to do about money and how much you have. Satyam's Mother is a Brahmin. He missed out on knowing his Grandparents because she married a Chetria...from Punjab, India of all places. Nepalis Brahmins like to marry Brahmins. I think Indian Brahmins have a slightly different attitude about this but Neel Bhai can answer that better than I. Here in America, Indian Patel's are some of the richest and they are Brahmins.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-02-14 5:36 AM
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| It was a problem in India., But Lord Buddha said;
"Not by birth does one become an outcast, not by birth does one become a Brahmana;"
"By one's action one becomes an outcast, by one's action one becomes a brahmana."
(Vasala Sutta)
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Expert Yogi
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Location: A Blue State | Thushara - 2005-02-14 6:54 AM
It was a problem in India., But Lord Buddha said;
"Not by birth does one become an outcast, not by birth does one become a Brahmana;"
"By one's action one becomes an outcast, by one's action one becomes a brahmana."
(Vasala Sutta)
Nice quotes! |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Cyndi - 2005-02-14 5:12 AM
P.S. Someone mentioned something about Americans and money...trust me this has nothing to do about money. Some of the lowest caste people are some of the weathiest and some (I said some) Brahmins are the poorest.
I agree that caste and money aren't the same, but in the US the rich seem to get special
treatment at times, as if they are somehow better than the rest, and the poor are often
treated as if they somehow deserve to live in poverty. I think in particular of recent federal
policies on welfare and taxation, but, hey, let's don't do politics again.
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Expert Yogi
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| Well put, Bay Guy. Here in North America, we like to think we have a "classless" society and our stated value is that we are each equal no matter what our birth or our "inclination". In practice, it is a very different thing, sadly. OTOH, we don't tend to disallow people from making our food or coming into our house simply because of the conditions of their birth such as who their parents are. |
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| CyndiBen: Say hello to my Downward Dog Teacher Yoda.
Comments:
on Cyndi: The original idea of Brahminism is what I wrote above. Then the Castism came beccause, without doubt a Real Brahmin is more respectable than others. For example, in USa, Einstein is more respectable than anothher ordinnary Physics Professor who gets more salary than Einstein because of seniority or being German, or being original American and not immigrated, etc. etc.
Later, as the brahmin caste was formed as described above, the caste also got that respect. Now, anyone inn a positionn of power is likely to go corrupt, or at least egotistic. So, the non Deserving Caste Brahmins made use of this position to make more money and control socciety. NOT all of them did so.
Actually, in India, the Real Brahmin Caste is supposed to be the poorest in money and is still the same. A Real Brahmin only earns for living and then spends all energy to learn and teach the society. The caste which earns maximum money is called Vaishya, that is Business. The Patels (and also ones in USA) are from this caste. The Kshatriyas or warriors are supposed to protect the country and therefore they also get to rule the contry. However, this concept is totally corrupted all over the world, USA being one of the WORST, and the Ruling has overtaken or superceded the Protection. Shoodras, that is the lowest caste, which does menial work, not because they are slaves such as in USA history, but beccause they are lazy in terms of knowledge obtaining and some other qualities like this, earns the least, does menial work for getting food and some other junkies such as alcohol, etc.
Now, the original reason for Untouchability is the environment affects the studies of a Real brahmin. For example, one who tries to Meditation practice in a Butcher Shop will be slower than one who does the same in a Temple. This is for an average person. Therefore the concept of untouchability came. However, it was misused by the phony Brahmins, who only used the caste position for money, in the sense they kept the low caste uunder their control.
Thushara: What Buddha said is due to Social conditions then which are described above herewith. What he said does NOT apply to Real Brahmin. For Real Brahmin, the concpet of highest order, least money, highest knowledge, untouchability are all correct and valid.
Bay Guy: Money part is slightly made clear above.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | No Politics???..geez. The Indian Caste system is not related to politics, rich or poor. It's nothing like our system here in the US. We have Upper, Middle and Lower Class (not Caste) which is measured in how much $$$ you have. Like I mentioned, some and most Brahmins are dirt poor while the lower caste people work their tails off and become rich..they just don't get to hang out with the Brahmins. Its a very complicated thing to understand because there are so many things to understand about it and I'm learning because I'm married into it. It is changing though for the better..probably thanks to Buddha. But I still LOVE MY INDIA!! I decided to write and re-edit this because I think the last 3 posts were sent at once...I totally agree with you Neel Bhai about the real Brahmins - it is valid and I don't think it should change. Basically, I feel that the system is not all bad. Satyam is a warrior and a King - no doubt about that. I don't like it when he gets mad. The people, the outside world and changes corrupted the system. The corruption is what I hope to see change amoung the people. But I'm afraid outside influences will make it worse before it ever gets better. I think every country and culture is subject to this type of curruption. BTW, I'm suppose to be 100% American..it didn't help me. As for the US and problems...you should go read about the fall of the Roman Empire and you might see some similarities of our failing system. Sometimes, I wish I could move to Canada and get away from GWB. It's embarrassing for me to say I'm American when other countries are afraid of us. Satyam was talking to his sister in Italy yesterday. Her husband's Italian family are afraid of and don't like Americans because of GWB. The sad part is that the majority of us Americans don't like our present situation and we are helpless and outnumbered. I'll deal with it though. Okay, time to take Yoda for a walk:~)
Edited by Cyndi 2005-02-14 10:41 AM
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| The caste system which is older than yoga is crystallized in India's fabric. In ancient times the study of hindu scriptures including the yoga sutras were reserved only for the brahmin caste while the lowest caste, the shurdas (or untouchables) had no right even to aspire to study the sciptures.
The caste system is officially unlawful in modern India but is still very much a part of that nation's psyche. Even today only brahmins can be priests in a hindu temple. if a person born as a shudra wanted to become a priest in a temple he cannot simply because he is a shudra though he may have studied every ancient hindu scripture. The caste system is very difficult and complex to understand but that it leads to discriminatory and prejudicial behavior is not that difficult to comprehend.
Incidentally both Mr. Iyengar and Mr. Jois are brahmins and so is their teacher Mr. Krishnmacharya. |
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| Dear HotYogi:
I do not know what your experience with India is or what your resource of this information is. Let us see what the situation in India is:
- In India, the priest is NOT same as the Priest in a Church in USA, who drives in a Cadillac and gives lectures while keeping sexual abuses with kids, and later escapes due to Moentary reasons.
- In India, there are many temples, where the deity of the temple is a Low Caste Saint, for example templeof Sant Tukaram where thousands go for worship, including Brahims, and they are worshipping a Low Caste saint.
- In India, even today, you shall find no one asks for a caste when a person is Spiritual or a Saint. The devotees of Shirdi Saee Baba included, Hindus, Muslims, and thousands of Brahmins, including the highest in the Caste System. SaeeBaba himself never disclosed his caste publicly.
- The reasons for untouchability and oppression of low caste is more related to Power and Money as I explained earlier in this post. That is Identical in USA (actually, worst in USA history if you study it without deletion of the facts, as is done currently), in Britain (the worst in the History of the world so far), and Germany (which led to WW II), and France, Alexander the great (great in bad things), etc.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Alexander the great (great in bad things) ?
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| Alexander the Great = Portugese Warrior who wanted to concur the world, which means only Rule the world after bringing it under material control by Power or War.
Great in Bad things = Great means great or big or skilled or achiever; Bad Things mean bad things such as trying to concur the earth for controlling others, only in material sense rather than spiritual sense, etc.
Anywya, I am glad that he was defeated in India by the greattest expertise of Spiritual and Intellecctual wisdom of Chanakya, who wrote the first treatise on Politics in the World, known at this time, called as Chanakyaneeti. It can be seen very well that this book on Politics emphasizes more on the Ethics and Morality, that how the offices are to be run and how one should make profit by screwing up others.
So, to conclude, Great in Bad Things means NOT Really Great!!!
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
To the best of my recollection, Alexander the Great was from the part of
Greece known as Macedonia. |
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| Dear Neel:
I do not disagree with you about the caste system and its direct corelation with power and control. The examples of the realized souls transcending all barriers of caste and creed that you cite are indeed true but does not take away from the fact about the caste system degenerating into an instrument of control with people in the lowest rung suffering the most. This certainly does not mean that the brahmin caste is oppressive today and most of the modern Indian cities are quite integrated in the sense nobody cares about the caste of the person who last ate from the plate on which the food arrives when they go to a restaurant. But India is a country of a billion people with over 60 percent living in rural areas where the caste system is ingrained in peoles' daily lives. In the recent Tsunami afflicted state in South India some villagers refused to share a relief shelter with people from the same village of the lowest caste. And this was in the face of one of the worst natural disasters to afflict that area.
The power structure in any organized religion leads to corruption. Your example of the abusive catholic priests is a good point, but they are an exception and certainly does not mean that the entire catholic clergy is corrupt and abusive. A parallel can be drawn in the Indian context too with the arrest of the Shankaracharya (one of the four hindu pontiffs) for charges of conspiracy to murder. Again a clear abuse of power, position and trust. Certainly does not take away from the piety of other priests of the hindu orthodoxy.
Also, I agree with you that the oppressions of the caste system pale in comparison to the genocide on the native americans practiced in the american continent and the Spanish conquasitadors being the worst perpetrators. The primary British motive for subjugation of the native peoples was profit while the Spanish motive was both profit and "moral" where they converted or tried to convert the local people whom they mercilessly subjugated.
Finally, the treatise of Chanakya that you state is not chanakyaneeti but Neeti Shastra an excellent exposition on governance and statecraft. Chankaya also wrote Artha Shastra considered by many scholars as the first treatise on macroeconomics. Chanakya is also considered as one of the shrewdest individuals from ancient Indian history and today the term chankyaneeti connotes shrewd, strategic thinking. President Bush's Machiavellian advisor Karl Rowe's tactics are an example of chanakyaneeti.
Namasthe |
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| wow.. i just learned so much, thank you all ( neel especially) for your thoughts and explanations-
from what i can gather, the emergence of "cast-ism"sounds a lot like the emergence of racism here in the US. except that being a slave or indentured servant inthe bad old days was never a matter of "tendency" or inclination 
so what was the historical/social context for "varna"'s transformation into caste / castism?
and neel can you explain more about the "untouchables" i didn't quite get your meaning. |
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| Bay Guy: I apologize for my mistake in writing France, Alexander the Greate one after another, I did not mean they are rleated. I meant France and Alexander the Great, who was from Greece as you correctly stated.
Hot Yogi: Yes, it is Neeti Shaastra. But, it is also called as just neeti in the circles. For example, Shree Patanjalayogadarshanam is also called as Patanjalayogasutrani, or just Patanalisutrah, etc. Yes, I agree, he wrote the other treatise. I had both of them in the original Sanskrit. He did all the work that time without taking any political position, profit, etc and then he went away as soon as he achieved the purpose. (About Catholic, I should not have made the statement. But, I do not wish to discuss that topic due to some other reasons. Sorry for backing out.)
Siren: Varna means Tendency Categorization. For example: I am extremely interested in Vedic Studies, Teaching, Learning, etc. Then my Varna is Brahmin. This is also elaborated earlier in this post. Please see it. Caste means it is a social division made to organize the work. Initially the Caste was based on Varna or qualities. Later, it became an oppression as Hot Yogi read. I feel ashamed that during Tsunami the Caste prevalied.
ALL: The Problem of Castism, Slavery, Racism, etc. can NOT be solved by giving freedom or benefits as is done in the modern society or legal system, such as that in USA. It can be solved only if people develop and feel real love for each other, which automatically results into removal of the vices.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Amen and Namaste` Neel Bhai!! I came across an article yesterday in Time Magazine's January 24, 05 issue. It was interview with Deepak Chopra. One of the questions was this: You've been called "the Swami of the rich, hip and famous." Your reaction? Mr. Chopra replied, "I think the lesson in all of this is to be independent of both the GOOD and the BAD opinions of others. Then you are free." This was the most profound statement! In relating to the caste system...The caste system came from the Vedas and was never intended to place people higher or lower than the other - they were the same. Society and people ruined the caste system, nothing is wrong with that system. Furthermore, when the article asked Deepak Chopra - "What compelled you to write about peace?", he replied, "If we continue to combine our ancient habits with our modern capacities, we risk totally destroying ourselves. The issue is not who's going to win the war on terrorism. The issue is either we all survive or no one survives.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-02-16 10:38 AM
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| Dear CyndiBen:
thanks. I am not knowledgeable or associated with Deepak Chopra. The Caste System did not come from Vedas. Vedas has no castes or even Varnas. Vedas are the knowledge received by the Sages durring Mediation. It is in the form of sound only called Mantras. Later these were passed to others by the Oral way only, called as Shruti. The Varnas came later.
I like the idea of peace for all.
Peace
neel kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hi and Namaste` again Neel Bhai, But the Vedas did say that there would be 4 categories of human beings positions on earth which was meant as a way of living on earth and could be chosen and subject to change depending on what a person wanted to do. Of course, it was not a caste system at this point, nor was it to determine a person to be higher or lower. In fact, if you look at this carefully, it sums up how we live as humans in different stages in our communities and society too...I know I have been through all of these categories at various times...in this 1 life**see note below. In fact, the categories actually seem natural for everyone living on the earth - not negative if you look at it from a positive perspective of how a person could live and be happy with his or herself - knowing that it didn't matter if you were in a particular category because you were NOT higher or lower and were NOT competing - just simply being natural. I really like this concept alot because I think that is why so many people are confused about who they are and what they are doing with their lives - they are not happy being who they are and are not being what they want to be. These categories which are Brahmin, Chetria, Vishya and Shoodra and was discovered from the great Sage Vyaas. In a way you could say the Caste system came from the Veda, since it did start from this knowledge - I repeat...based on this knowledge or information, but....... It was the Bad Brahmins that changed all that and made the caste system, the rules and the touchables and the untouchables and then of course, I think this is where Buddha got upset and so on and ever since then it has been a mess. I have no idea what the Varna is. Cyndi - who needs to learn this so she can be a good Brahmin:~) **I'm not referring to the 4 Ashramas such as Brahmacharya, Grihastha, Vanaprastha, and Sanyasa
Edited by Cyndi 2005-02-16 11:59 PM
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| Cyndi - 2005-02-17 10:38 AM
Hi and Namaste` again Neel Bhai, But the Vedas did say that there would be 4 categories of human beings positions on earth which was meant as a way of living on earth and could be chosen and subject to change depending on what a person wanted to do. Of course, it was not a caste system at this point, nor was it to determine a person to be higher or lower. In fact, if you look at this carefully, it sums up how we live as humans in different stages of our lives and as a community...I know I have been in all of these categories...in this 1 life. These categories are Brahmin, Chetria, Vishya and Shoodra and was discovered from the great Sage Vyaas. In a way you could say the Caste system came from the Veda, since it did start from this knowledge - I repeat...based on this knowledge or information, but....... It was the Bad Brahmins that changed all that and made the caste system, the rules and the touchables and the untouchables and then of course, I think this is where Buddha got upset and so on and ever since then it has been a mess. I have no idea what the Varna is. Cyndi - who needs to learn this so she can be a good Brahmin:~)
Cyndy I think this is all unwanted stuff., Like I said., You do good then definitely you will be a good Brahmin.
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| Hey Thushara: Why are you telling my sister Cyndi to NOT WANT something. Let her want it man. If she likes coffee, let her have it while you drink your Tea. Now, CyndiBen:
1. Please tell me which Vedas talked about 4 caste.
2. Sage Vyasa was long after Vedas, he codified them. If you are refering to Shreemad Bhagavadgita, that is Upanishads, not vedas.
3. I agree with you that higher and lower should not be thought on one hand. However, on the other hand there will always be higher lower, which is like this: In the material world, there will always be rich-poor, strong-week, etc. It can not be avoided. In the Spiritual world, more spiritual is respected, not actually higher because spiritually all are same, but on the path of evolution one is respected more.
4. Varna means qualities of action which later became right by birth which is the Caste.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Thank you Neel Bhai, Actually, the information came from my quering Satyam over the years and trying to understand Hinduism. Not meaning to sound ridiculously stupid, I never thought to ask which vedas the information came from, I just took his word on trust because he is a devoted Hindu and learned everything from his Mother. The details were not that important because I do not live out of that place of needing proof of everything. So maybe this Sage Vyasa was what he was referring to as to where the information came from - he did say this sage discovered it so I am assuming this was what Satyam was taught to be true. I'm sure that all the other relevants were not taught to Satyam as a child growing up as a Hindu and he did not study with Brahmins in the temple the entire time of his youth, he had a Brahmin for a Mother. So, having that said, everything I described was not meant as scripture, it was per my understanding of the way the caste and the categories came about. I was hoping by continuing this thread that myself or anyone else with an interest whoever it may have been now or next week or month... could learn more and I could take my existing knowledge deeper, and if anyone else had an interest it could possibly be understood in simplier terms the way I explained it further - those Indian terms can be confusing sometimes, however, someone tried to stop me and say this was unwanted. So, I think I will go have that cup of chai now. Thank you Neel Bhai for having confidence in me:~) |
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yoga and caste in india?
