|
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I am going to apologize up front too for posting an article that seems to get certain people's feather's ruffled and from reading certain posts...Americans seem to want this proof of everything that they do..what happened to common sense and faith?? Why is it that everyone is still going around trying to justify what they do and what is the friggin deal with this science stuff? We have lots of other proof dated for over thousands of years that gets shuffled to the side because of stupid scientists...hell will freeze over before I live my life depending on what a scientist or a medical doctor says! Besides, they are only after your money and want to have all the control! Anyway, my Tibetan Guru (who was a meat eater by the way) made a comment about plants. This made more sense than anything...plants do not have a mind. Even the Native American Indians believed in this, although what they did do was have reverence for every living thing (plants and rocks included) and they did a pooja or ceremonies during growing and harvest time. When they slaughtered a Buffalo, they used every single part of that animal. The animals and Indians lived in a peaceful environment with respect for each other and no FEAR!! One day we were walking in the mountains, and it was only us and the cows...no cars, my Indian husband started whistling to the cows. All of them got really scared and started running away and freaked out. Satyam told me these cows have been ruined by humans...cows are not suppose to be afraid like this. Needless to say, a smaller one came and investigated us. Sam started mooing to him and he mooed back - it was sweet. Makes me wish I had one for a pet:~) Although the other day I stopped my car and did this and we had all the cows mooing at us...then the owner came and yelled at us, I quickly drove away with a sigh..... The information I posted came from a reputable source. It came from Kauai's Hindu Monastery in Hawaii (big Shiva Temple) - where they truly practice Sattvic principals, grow their own vegetables on over 50 acres of land on the island of Kauai. Everything they cook and prepare is done with God in mind. They also believe that by preparing food such as this for God's enjoyment and then offering it to the Lord, one can become closer to God, simply by eating this type of food. You can view this as arrogant and stupid all you want, but I'm sure there are other readers that can read between the lines and see its precious value. It is certainly a much better way for a NON-Violent practice rather than having Steaks on the Grill:~) Have a wonderful blessed day. Namastute` Since today is Laxmi's day (Friday) and we are talking about cows (Laxmi is the cow)....Om Shri Maha Laxmi Deviya namaha |
|
| |
|
| I have a few big problems when reading these threads about "dieting" because they are all over the place.
Problem 1: People assume "diet" means to lose weight. "Diet" can mean that but it can also be used to just describe the sum and substance of the food you ingest on a regular basis. You can eat McDonald's 3 meals a day for a month. That's YOUR "diet." It's not a "diet" in terms of dieting to lose weight. It's just a description of the kind/type of food you eat.
You can change your "diet" without regard for weightloss. However, to "go on a diet" connotes that you are trying to lose weight or have other dietary restrictions that you are following.
Problem 2: People throw the word "Healthy" around too much. Nobody has offered a good definition of "health" or "healthy." Why is that? Because it is too subjective. What's healthy for you, may not be healthy for me. What's healthy for one meal a day may be toxic if consumed three or more times a day (alcohol for example). What I need or think I need in my diet may or may not be what you need. My goals, my lifestyle, my genetics and my philosophies might require me to eat more or differently than someone else. Therefore, what is healthy for me might not be healthy for someone else.
Problem 3: Philosophy vs. Science. Some people promote "diets" or "health" based on philosophy and some promote them based on science. However, most people have no idea which they are promoting. Most of these threads confuse science and philosophy and use one to justify the other.
Problem 4: Goal orientation. Most people discuss diets and dietary advice based on their own subjective view of the world and their own goals. The people that are looking for a diet or dietary advice seldom have the same goals or have not adequately expressed their goals and have not thought of creating a plan to achieve their goals.
For example, if your goal is to live a longer life, then you should consider a reduced calorie diet. Studies have shown that a reduced calorie diet has increased the lifespan of lab mice and even some people in the far off corners of the world. If your goal is lowered risk of heart attack, then you should drink a glass of wine every night and eat lots of green vegetables. If you are an athlete and training for major competition, studies have shown that the zone diet works wonders. If you are a yoga practitioner and on the path to enlightenment, a raw food vegan diet will bring into harmony with the universe.
Set your goal and then create a plan to achieve it. Many people have walked the path before you and now it's just a matter of taking the appropriate steps.
|
|
| |
|
| Tsaklis -
We kill plants during a harvest just as brutally as any butcher. A study by the University of Iowa some years ago actually recorded the fact that corn emits a very high pitched wail as it is harvested. Too high for human hearing, but it is there. The same is true for wheat. So what is to be made of this arguement that killing an animal is wrong, but killing a plant is not? In my view all life is sacred.
Good point. From high school biology we learned that all living things -
1.) require energy
2.) are composed of cells
3.) reproduce
4.) display heredity
5.) respond to stimuli
6.) evolve and adapt
7.) maintain homeostasis
Plants and animals both fit all the criteria. If animals are alive and have souls, why aren't plants alive and have souls as well? Just for the sake of argument. :-) I agree with the view all life is sacred. We connect more to the animal kingdom opposed to the plant kingdom, so sometimes people forget that plants are living too. :-)
Jean-
Eating for perfect health is too EXPENSIVE for many people! Organic free-range chickens are almost never on sale, but you can stock your whole kitchen with Spaghetti-O's for less than 5 bucks. You just have to do the best you can, and sometimes you find yourself eating something that you know isn't good for you. Just bless it, be mindful, and be grateful that you can afford to put anything at all in your belly.
I couldn't have put it better myself! Sometimes all poor college students can afford are ten cent packs of Ramen Noodles for at least two meals a day! On the meat side, almost everything is cheaper than buying fresh shellfish, so sometimes some chicken is the only option (other that Jean's Spaghetti-O's! LOL!).
Cyndi-
I am going to apologize up front too for posting an article that seems to get certain people's feather's ruffled and from reading certain posts...
No one seems ruffled to me - just a friendly discussion. :-)
Americans seem to want this proof of everything that they do..what happened to common sense and faith??
Science, lol. *just kidding* 
...and what is the friggin deal with this science stuff?
My favorite subject. Science is something one can see proof of (in theory anyway), which maybe why it's so popular in America. I like a nice healthy combination of all three (Faith, Science, and Common Sense).
Also, an interesting point about the cows and fear. Animals naturally don't fear humans, but humans make them afraid... Like the iguanas and other critters in the Galapagos Islands, if we don't scare them, they'll most likely never be afraid of humans. Of course people don't eat iguanas that I know of... I sure hope no one does anyway!
***Imagine tiptoeing amongst the iguanas atop their sunning rocks while one opens one eye, sees you're no threat and goes back to sunning and sleeping. Ahhh!***
 |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 517
Location: New Jersey | I agree with you on giving up all but favorite types of meat, Claire. When I first decided I wanted to be a Vegetarian, I gave up all types of Animal products in one sweep. A few months later, I was weak from lack of pretein, and craving hamburgers! I went back to being a meat eater pretty quickly. This time around, I gave up certain animal product little by little. Red meat went first, then fish, etc. I'm finally down to dairy being the only animal product I consume. It was a lot easier this way, and alot healthier!
Samantha |
|
| |
|
| loli - 2005-02-25 6:17 AM
Hi.
I don't eat meat or poultry, and don't eat things like cheese if it contains aniimal rennet or jellies with gelatine etc..
But, I can't really say that I am a vegetarian as I do sometimes (rarely) eat fish/seafood...
I seem to know quite a few people like me, who will eat a little fish but no meat....is there a 'label' for us?
Just curious....
Laura
Laura, since you asked, yes, there is a label... Fisheterians. |
|
| |
|
| Fisheterians
I like it!
|
|
| |
|
| YogaGuy, you have made some very excellent points. Bravisimo! (If there were a clapping hands emoticon, it would have been inserted here.) I couldn't agree more with the points you made. I especially agree with the point you made about the subjective nature of the word "healthy," you are right when you say a person's lifestyle, goals, and personal philosophy determine what they need and what is healthy.
You definitely put some ideas out there that will make people think, and I'm glad you did. |
|
| |
|
| i've got to say cyndi, i am truly amazed you would try and convince your daughter to eat meat, when you seemingly know the benefits of a meat free diet. why do you feel it is necessary for another living thing to be enslaved, tortured, and killed, for your daughters consumption? |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Actually, I want my daughter and my son to make good healthy choices for themselves and I wanted to make sure that she was ready for that kind of decision, not based on what other people do and because of the cultural differences...like her father's family eat meat. Some people say they are going vegetarian for the wrong reasons...as a Mother it is my responsibility to teach my child - EVERYTHING!! Not that it is any of your business what I do with my children and my child rearing practices:~) Thank you, for making such a *smart* observation - I'm impressed. Geez, let's see, aren't you gonna ask about my dog and cat's whether or not they are vegetarians too??? The answer is: NO, but they do get natural organic food - whatever that's worth. This meat vs. vegetarian deal is a personal choice. It's not right for anyone to judge and point fingers at another about who is right or wrong regarding this subject. Everyone has their views and belief's about it and should be respected - another words every point has merit and should be honored for where you are in your life - I mean this sincerely:~) We and especially me, are just posting the information to discuss.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-02-25 4:23 PM
|
|
| |
|
| Did you hear one day Jeff Dahmer, the serial killer and cannibal, was having lucnh with his mother? She said,
"Jeffrey, I don't like your friends."
He replied, "That's OK, just eat the vegetables." |
|
| |
|
| Thanks, Itchy! 
These threads turn into a comparison of apples and oranges because what is "healthy" to one person is not "healthy" to another person. That's not to say there aren't universal concepts that can be applied, but very few people are in agreement about what they need and why.
How come we haven't delved into keeping Kosher? In that case it's obvious that the dietary restrictions are based on religion so we dismiss them as only for jews and not a matter of "health." Yet many people claim to be vegetarians out of beliefs that are as closely held as religion. We debate this without regard for their "feelings", but most would tread a lot lighter around telling jews to eat pork. And for that matter jews don't often try to get people to stop eating shrimp. So we exist side by side with our Kosher friends and don't have these debates with them.
Edited by YogaGuy 2005-02-25 4:51 PM
|
|
| |
|
| i apologize if i offended you in any way cyndi. i wasn't judging, pointing fingers, or implying everyone should not eat meat. i just simply found it odd you would try and get your daughter to eat meat after she had chosen not to. you never mentioned you son, cat or dog, so i never even thought about it. i make the choices that are right for me, everyone else is on their own. i've got children of my own who choose to drink milk and even eat cheese, that's their choice and that's fine. i can just sit back and give them every bit of information available and allow them to come to their own conclusions. again, sorry if my post read any other way than i intended. |
|
| |
|
| Hmmmm
In my opinion, the choice to be a vegetarian is fundamentally a philosophical/spiritual choice, not necessarily one based on what is "healthier" or more "natural" for the human body. I completely respect a vegetarian who chooses that way of eating, I simply cannot be convinced that it is the only way to have a healthy diet or be spiritually pure.
I tend to view things from an evolutionary biology point of view - that dominates my world view. (I notice that most religions do not see the world that way at all). It is quite clear to me that the human body is designed to eat animal flesh and that humans evolved as predators. Just look at our teeth for example - we have canine teeth as well as molars. Humans are omnivores and can adapt to many different types of foods. We are unable to create our own food from the sun, air and soil, so we have to take from other life around us to survive.
Grains, beans and legumes that dominate a vegetarian diet are recently developed food items that became available when humans developed agriculture. These foods were not eaten by our earlier ancestors.
I reject the idea that diets which include meat or any form of animal flesh are less healthy than diets that do not include them. In this case I define health as freedom from chronic disease (heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc.). Either diet can be healthy or unhealthy. Some human societies have adapted to diets very high in animal flesh with almost no vegetables and fruits available - Eskimos, for example. These traditional societies have little chronic disease. Many other societies with very good health characteristics include some animal flesh in the diet. There are strong indications that societies which eat fish and seafood rather than "red" meat are freer from chronic diseases, so from a purely nutritional point of view this may be a good health practice.
I don't understand the distinction between killing mammals & birds for food and killing fish or shellfish for food. Fish and shellfish may be more nutritious, but they aren't any less an animal.
I also reject the idea that killing of an animal for food is violence. Killing for blood lust or ego or wanton destruction - yes, that is violence. But killing because you intend to use the animal as food - to me that is not violence. Just as an owl must catch and kill live mice to survive - I don't consider owls to be violent, they must predate to survive, it's a simple fact of life on this planet. Yes, you can say humans can choose not to eat animal flesh and survive, but I don't consider that we are violent because we choose to eat animal flesh just as our hunter ancestors did.
Supersize Me demonstrated the effects of a diet high in junk food and fast food (and refined carbs, sugars, saturated fats and trans fats) coupled with a sedentary lifestyle. It had nothing to do with whether there was meat in the diet.
These are just my points of view.
Audrey |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| A friend of mine had a vegetarian boyfriend back in the 70's. He thought it was ok to eat fish because fish had no intelligence. My dear friend, in her most common sense voice replied "oh yeah? Well I've seen chickens and they're pretty STUPID!" That guy didn't last too long...   |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I think its really gone too far when we are told we can't eat corn, tomatoes and cucumbers and mangoes and apples......sigh |
|
| |
|
| Cyndi, I think you have been very rude to poor Jimmy. his argument is quite rght! infact, if you need your children to experience everything, why dont you feed them beef too???? like you11 words) they should try
everything..... I think its unfair if you dont give them beef 
oh I forgot that you said you are a cow.... then how are you going to feed beef to ur kids 
anyway we crazy Americans are very confused with these stuff : Im off to eat a big mac... bye!
Edited by Star 2005-02-25 8:56 PM
|
|
| |
|
| Cyndi - 2005-02-25 7:40 PM
I think its really gone too far when we are told we can't eat corn, tomatoes and cucumbers and mangoes and apples......sigh
This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Or, actually, the antithesis of it. My point was that it is a fundamental truth of existance that life requires death. Every living thing requires something else to die in order to go on living. It's an idea that makes everyone uncomfortable, myself included. Failing to acknowledge it, though, is a failure to respect the life that has been sacrificed in my opinion. Some people just ignore the thought entirely. Almost everyone, however, tries to mitigate the guilt by drawing various lines. Some people will eat plants but not animals. Others will eat some animals but not others, or will eat fish and poultry, but not red meat. Even true carnivores will draw lines. Most people who would have no trouble eating tuna would still balk at the idea of eating a dolphin. Bruce jokingly brought canabalism into the debate, but that is really just another line as well. Thankfully, it's a line that is almost universally agreed upon.
You are absolutely right when you say that it is a personal decision. No one has the right to judge another's choice in the matter. Likewise, no one has the right to feel morally superior for their own choice. In the study of yoga we strive to set our egos aside. The same should be true here. That was one of the exceptions I took with the article that began this post. For a piece about a "yogic diet" it was horrifically judgemental, steeped in moral superiority, and could very easily be seen to harm others if one believed the statement that vegetarianism offered protection from diseases such as AIDS or lung cancer. I do very much respect you and your beliefs. I do not respect a published author who states his own spiritual beliefs as if they were fact. I would feel the same if I agreed or disagreed with those statements. I would feel the same if it were an author in a magazine article or the pope. A simple "I believe..." before most of those statements would have made the piece much more honest.
I am very sorry if you interpret my taking exception to the article as a personal attack on you or your beliefs. This is not my intent.
|
|
| |
|
| Well said Tsaklis.
If one eats meat but feels wrong and guilty about it, then they should stop. In my opinion it all boils down to personal intention. I don't think a vegetarian diet makes anybody more sattvic than a meat eating diet.
Namasthe |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Bravo Steven! The issue of "healthy" is a bit like the issue of "being positive" or nice all the time. My definition of positive changes from time to time and certainly everyone here has different versions of it. Wasn't there mention of a yoga somewhere who lives on sunshine and air? His version of a "healthy" diet would certainly not work for the average householder 
And "science" is a pretty malleable subject. People make all sorts of claims in the name of science that are a bunch of (to borrow one of Christine's words, I think) hooey. I love all the stuff saying how eating meat has been the downfall of western society. Granted, we may be over the peak and headed downhill now, but the past 100 years or so has shown the biggest, healthiest, strongest and most powerful people have emerged from meat eating countries. It has been working pretty well for us for a long time and now we just need to learn the balance point. And we may in time learn that for a spiritual, rather than a strength and power aspect, we do need to reduce or eliminate meat from the diet bt it will take a long time to change that societal mind set. |
|
| |
|
| I just love this post! :-) I like hearing everyone's ideas and opinions on the subject...
audreyh1-
In my opinion, the choice to be a vegetarian is fundamentally a philosophical/spiritual choice, not necessarily one based on what is "healthier" or more "natural" for the human body. I completely respect a vegetarian who chooses that way of eating, I simply cannot be convinced that it is the only way to have a healthy diet or be spiritually pure.
***applause***
I tend to look at things from a Biological perspective as well.
As for seeing some animals as less intelligent that others;
***LOVE the vegetarian boyfriend story tourist!***
I try to eat only shellfish myself not because I think they're less intelligent, but because I love to eat them. :-) Perhaps the people that only choose to eat fish eat them because they can stop eating everything except for fish. Just a thought. I would in no way consider myself a "fishatarian" right now. I've been considering it... but as I smell this pepperoni pizza, I waver on the decision!
I think one can eat "healthy" being a vegetarian or omnivore. I've known some vegetarians to not eat correctly and get sick (and one became overweight!), where as we all know unhealthy omnivores as well. (Thanks McDonald's, we need those free Chicken Strips. Ha Ha.) Anyway, I believe a "healthy" diet is based on good choices based on one's own body. I don't think someone could make the argument that one is better than the other.
All4Now
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Yeah, the thing is, I 've known some pretty "healthy" vegetarians who have lived a life of denying themselves and feeling superior who died before they were 60. My mom was a life long carnivore, social drinker and smoker and sure, she died before she was sixty, but she enjoyed her life. I'm not advocating living a hedonistic lifestyle (in spite of afroyogi's awesome quote from HS Thompson) but if one lives an austere life because one feels one "should" it is not neccesarily going to be a fulfilling life. When the burger bell goes off in my head, I will answer it as surely as I answer the chocolate gong or even the green salad alarm. |
|
| |
|
| I ate a vegan diet for around 4 years, was vegetarian for around 3 years before that and a year afterwards. Somewhat ironically, I started eating meat again at around the same time that I seriously devoted myself to asana practice and my interest in yogic philosophy started to grow.
For me this was both a health choice and a philosophical choice, the very same things that so often see people becoming vegetarians.
For a start, I felt I was seriously protein deficient, and likely iron deficient. My body had been craving meats for years, and I'd been denying this urge for too long. I decided to just try it and see, and it turns out that the reintroduction of meat has brought me far more energy and vitality.
Before I decided to venture into this, I did alot of reading up on the ethics of meat eating vs. vegetarianism, and to my surprise, discovered that for me, it felt like a far stronger political and philosophical stance to eat meat, choosing only organic produce from sustainable, healthy and environmentally sound farms. This way, I feel that I'm really making a statement about what I'll accept in the industry and what I won't, rather than avoiding it altogether. I'm alspo vehement about only choosing organic dairy produce: in most cases with standard farming, what these beautiful animals are put through in order to produce dairy is what I consider worse than death. For me, eating non-organic dairy feels almost 'worse' than eating non-organic meat.
As an aside, for me, I don't think that meat-eating or vegetarianism imply spirituality either way: some of the most spiritual cultures on the Earth use flesh products as dietary staples (African tribles, Native American tribes, Australian Aborginal cultures, etc...), others don't use meats at all. The only thing they all have in common is a profound respect for their food and where it comes from, which manifests as deep appreciation, prayer, thanksgiving, ritual, etc...
The only thing I advocate across the board is that people really think about where their food comes from, and cultivate a real appreciation for the energy and processes it's undergone before it hits our plates. Whether this means supporting local markets, saying your own version of grace before a meal, eating fish you've caught yourself, whether you're vegetarian or eat meat, it's up to you.
Just my opinions!
|
|
| |
|
| I like Tourist's point - happiness is very important to the human diet!! If eating meat makes you feel uncomfortable and sad, then you shouldn't be eating it. But if denying yourself makes you feel self-righteous and better than others, it is not out of a true sense of compassion and perhaps your motives should be examined. When I was vegetarian, the very thought of eating a burger made my heart just break - yet I did not feel this if my husband or anyone else ate meat. I simply made the choice for myself out of where my heart was guiding me. At first he was a little defensive and nervous that I would attack his choices, but I respect that he is on his own path and will do what he believes is right.
I found this to be true outside the realm of vegetables vs meat, when I was cutting calories in order to lose weight. My goal was to "look better" (no it was not for health, just vanity). Yet denying myself all my favorite foods/drinks made me very cranky & unhappy, and thus a very ugly person to be around. People who enjoy life are much more enjoyable to be around, and life is just too short! |
|
| |
|
| I absolutely agree...As with anything, it's the intention behind it that makes the difference.
In my ideal world all the food I eat would be organic and kind. It's not as easy to live that way though when time and finances get in the way. Working, going to school, yoga practice, social commitments, and extra-curricular activities leave me sometimes forced to eat processed whatever...I think it's important to make little changes where you can though, so when I buy produce I get as much organic as possible. If they don't have organic broccoli and I nee broccoli, though, it's not a big deal to substitute. But you're right, Laksheis, it's more important to put your money and your effort where you personally think it is going to be the most appropriate for where you are in your life.
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
There's a new forum, just created, on Diet and Nutrition --- perhaps
the various threads on Vegetarianism should take up residence there!
|
|
| |
Yogi diet - Vegetarian vs. Meat
