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| OK - warning technical! What do you think is the best way to engage the adductors for alignment without unconsciously using the knees? I have known mine are weak and I have been working on strengthening them through some of the standing poses, but I think I am also using my knees a bit to maintain proper form. For example, standing in mountain pose the knee should be directly over the ankle, but if I stand completely relaxed my knees want to go in a little, so I use muscle (pull up through my buttocks but also try to use the hamstrings to open it up) to move the knees in line, but I don't feel it in my adductors necessarily, though more now. Weight machines don't work with the muscle the same way since on the inner thigh ones you press in to work the muscle – no extension in the leg. A pose like Warrior 1 the hip opening is through an extension, correct? But it is the adductor that is helping to create that? It hasn't been a major issue as far as overuse, more just something I know I need to work on, until I went for a tough 3 hour xc ski the other day. During it I started thinking about the alignment and kept noticing my knees still wanting to bow in a little, so I consciously worked on keeping them straight forward. My inner thighs were definitely sore, but I also started feeling a pinching below one knee. I will ask a teacher about this but am in the middle of trying to find a studio I like. I was testing out one yoga studio last month (special monthly rate) and the teacher never mentioned noticing anything. Tonight I was going to start an ansura class to see what I thought, but we are getting another huge snow storm….of course I want to XC ski in all that great fresh snow since I love it, but don't want to aggravate something.
Thanks! Maria
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| Maria
Last time I checked the adductors were used to bring your legs together to the midline. If your knees are bowed in, it's likely that your ADductors are working too hard and your ABductors are too weak. Sounds like an imbalance, but the opposite of what you are implying.
I would focus on your feet and try to apply more pressure to the outter edges (the pinkytoe side). I've noticed people who have knees that bow in usually have weak arches and don't lift them enough. See if curling the toes back and lifting your arches (as well as the kneecaps) while bringing weight into the outer edges helps.
My $0.02.
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| I have been researching and this article helps somewhat, though I'm still a bit confused and obviously need to work with a teacher one on one.
http://www.yogajournal.com/practice/931_1.cfm
But until then my question is where do I originate the stretch to open the hips but keep the knees in line. For example, if I am in warrior 2, isn't it my inner thigh that is opening the hip up? That is not a contraction, but an extension. Isn't it the same principle as a plie in dance? Do I think of the outer thigh (abductor) doing the opening, not deep in the groin?  |
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| Maria
What the heck are you talking about? One minute you are talking about "engaging" and "strengthening" your adductors and the next minute you are talking about "lengthening" and "stretching" them. I apologize if I'm misreading your posts but it sounds like you don't know the difference or are extremely confused about how the muscles of your body work.
Go ask your anusara teacher tonight and get this straigthened out. You should pay lots of attention to the concept of OUTER SPIRAL.
Contracting/engaging your adductors bring your thighs closer together. The antagonist muscles are the abductors which move your thighs apart. If you can't do baddha konasana then you are too tight in your adductors. Like I said, that's why your knees bow in towards each other. You have to strengthen your ABductors! Learn to press through the outer edges of your feet.
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| Keith,
Thanks for the input, but if you read the above article I cited you will see that I am not totally nuts. They discuss the adductors as also "opening up" the hip joint. That is what I mean by the stretching ok?. Yes, I will discuss it with my teacher, but my question still is which muscle initiates the outward movement of the thigh in standing poses such as warrior 2. My concern after skiing is this occasional tweaking below my knee cap now and I have no desire to create any knee issues since I have never have had them. I have been skiing for a long time, but only lately have I been working on this alignment issue. I will look at my feet/ankle placement as well, thank you. There are others who read the forum so perhaps they will understand what I am trying to say, so don't feel like you have to spend more time on it. I think a discussion of how those muscles work can benefit newer people to yoga like me, even if I can't explain it as clearly as someone else.
Maria |
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| Your languaging is confusing, Maria. Not a big deal, but for example, if your knees are going in, they're "knocking" not "bowing. 
Human beings naturally inner spiral/rotate. Stick your butt out and there you have it. Many dancers outerspiral (toes in turn out) due to training. We generally have weaker outer leg muscles than inner, although we notice the flab in the inner sooner.
Without seeing you in action, I'd say YogaGuy is correct in that outer spiral, outer rotation, or opening the hip is what you need to work on. In Vira I, your front leg outer spirals, while your back inner. Skiing has you trained to knock your knees a little and it's definitely not healthy for your knees.
Talk to your Anusara teacher about the Block and Belt exercise to train your shins to line up into your knees (patella) and your femurs into your hip socket. Supta padangusthasana III (where you take the leg across the body) done properly with a lumbar curve, working on your ITB can help strengthen this area, as can Satorius exercises. The Satorius is the longest muscle in the body and controls the outer spiral. However, it gets lazy and "glued" onto the thigh muscles and must be worked.
Here is the block and belt thing just in case.
Sit on the floor with your back against the wall, knees bent with a blanket under just your feet.
Take a block and put it as high up as you can between your thighs. It should be on the tall side, using the wide part. So not the easy way, ok?
Then put a block between your feet, medium side (not the narrowest way, and not end to end). This block is to keep your thighs and feet the same distance apart.
Now belt your shins together and pull it as tightly as you can. And I mean TIGHT. It should be around the fattest part of your calves.
Sitting up straight, lift your toes so you're on your heels.
Inhale, draw slide your feet in towards your bummy.
Exhale, extend your feet out.
Move slowly and with your breath, feet active with toes spread.
I put my hands on the block between my thighs and kind of push down on it to keep my spine straight.
This is not comfortable. However, you'll notice when you release and walk around that your hips are very fluid. It lines your leg bones up beautifully into your hip sockets, and helps draw bowed shin bones into the knees better. Sometimes knock-knees strain because of the angle of a bow, but this doesn't sound like it's your issues. This is one of those exercises that everyone should try, since it cannot hurt you and can only do some good.
I hope this gives you some ideas?
Christine |
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| Regardless of what language you are using, I'd be really concerned about recommending any yoga poses online in your situation. A pinching sensation in the kneecap is nothing to ignore, it's a very delicate joint - easy to injure and difficult to heal. That could just as easily be a pinched nerve or damaged cartilage, perhaps not something an easy answer like realigning your thigh muscle engagement.
Please talk to a doctor and a yoga therapist, see them in person and show them how you are moving when you feel that sensation!
If you simply must ski this weekend, maybe take it easy a bit - go slow and be mindful. Stop for the day if you feel that twinge again, get yourself some hot chocolate and relax. Do any of your ski buddies know anything about movement & anatomy? Perhaps they could watch how you are moving and might notice something about it that you can't see from your perspective. |
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| MariaFloresta - 2005-02-28 2:05 PM
Keith,
Thanks for the input, but if you read the above article I cited you will see that I am not totally nuts. They discuss the adductors as also "opening up" the hip joint. That is what I mean by the stretching ok?. Yes, I will discuss it with my teacher, but my question still is which muscle initiates the outward movement of the thigh in standing poses such as warrior 2. My concern after skiing is this occasional tweaking below my knee cap now and I have no desire to create any knee issues since I have never have had them. I have been skiing for a long time, but only lately have I been working on this alignment issue. I will look at my feet/ankle placement as well, thank you. There are others who read the forum so perhaps they will understand what I am trying to say, so don't feel like you have to spend more time on it. I think a discussion of how those muscles work can benefit newer people to yoga like me, even if I can't explain it as clearly as someone else.
Maria
Maria
I read the article twice and although it mentions that the adductors have a place in hip extension that is not the thrust of the article. The article focuses on strengthening the adductors by squeezing a block and practing some standing balances and then discusses stretching them through poses like baddha konasana.
The hip adductors play a small role in hip extension. However, the prime movers for hip extension are the muscles of your posterior chain: the hamstrings, glutes and lower back. In Warrior 2 you want to learn the action of outer spiral in order to align your knee over your toes. That is a movement which requires external rotation of the thigh in the hip socket. The Adductors do play a more prominent role in this application.
Like I said you want to discuss this with your teacher and get a real feel for how this applies as well as learning to use your feet properly. Your feet are your foundation. If you do not use them properly everything above them will be compromised. |
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| Thanks everyone for trying to decipher my meaning. I think I was a bit freaked out since my only sports type injury in years was a pulled calf muscle. It is making sense now and I appreciate the advice. I will gently work on what you suggested Christine and will talk to the teacher when I get there. Was hoping to go tonight, but the snow is starting in. The pinching sensation actually was not in my knee cap but below at the top of the shin where it connects and it was just weird because my inner thighs have never felt that sore after skiing - just really ached. I will be careful though, believe me. My mother had knee replacement surgery a year ago so I know how fragile they are.
Maria |
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| Figured out what was going on and Keith you were right (look at the foot), though the bigger issues of my leg alignment will be a long process dealing with what both you and Christine suggested. I was out skiing this morning - lots of beautiful fresh snow in Westchester - and immediately felt the tweaking - really annoyed me! I decided to take 10 minutes and look at my form and then head back in if it still continued. Lo and behold I noticed my heels were staying down as I glided and I was not moving my back foot through the ball with the heel coming up which is the natural movement - unavoidable when walking but skies make it possible to miss that part. Never did it like that before so in my efforts to align the knee with the toes and keeping up with my super athlete friend the other day, I have been tensing my leg all the way down creating an excessive pull in the shin of that back leg. The tweaking stopped immediately and I happily skied for two hours. Just goes to show good intentions are not always enough. Thanks again. |
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| Awesome, Maria.
Sounds like you had a great time yoga-skiing. Hope there are many more hours of pain-free fun in your future!
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Adductors
