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| Greetings all!
I am doing some research into effects of high heat while exercising on the body and I looking for any scientific data that can prove Bikram's claim that yoga done in high tempatures is benefical for the body. Specifically I am looking for a copy of the research that Bikram claims to have done in Japan. I was wondering if any of the Bikram instructors had such info and would be willing to share it.
Please note that:
1. I am looking for proven scientific research. I want hard facts either yea or nea.
2. I have tried to contact the university in Japan, but they seem to have not heard of the research.
3. This is a personal project for my own benefit. The finding when done will be available upon request.
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| No facts just what Bikram said. I remember him talking about being in front of an american medical association and bragging at how he went around the room pointing out the doctors medical problems. Something like " You got kidney problem, you got heart problem, you have stomach problem and so on". And he reported they were amazed. I did the training in 2000 and most of what I remember is Bikram talking about himself and his empire. Now I wonder how much of it was true. He talked about how the emperor of Japan wanted to have Bikram control billions of dollars of hers, but choose not to and went to Hawaii were he started with nothing and taught yoga. I believe Bikram's success is his ability to spread his confidence to people. People want to feel confident they can get out of the mess and Bikram provides that for people by believing in him and his statements.
A big lie is harder to disprove than a little one. I wonder if Bikram spouts big lies to have people believe in him . Good luck |
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| So true--that's what Goebels told Hitler in fact.
innerline - 2005-03-07 4:21 PM
A big lie is harder to disprove than a little one. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State |
The Big Lie... Oh no, I'll slip into politics if I touch that!
At one time, Bikram seemed to be claiming to have won a gold medal in
weightlifting at the Toyko Olympics in 1964, at least, according to some
of the second hand accounts posted on Bikram school sites. I was told
that Bikram schools were finally told to remove such comments from
their web sites.
Bikram makes a number of medical statements in his yoga book. For
example, he refers to arthritis as a disease of laziness. If I knew how
to take him to Court for that one, I most certainly would....people don't
get arthritis by being lazy, nor are people who have arthritis necessarily
lazy. I am sure that many of the 50 million+ people in my country who
have arthritis would disagree with that asinine remark.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Actually, and please no offense here, but arthritis is a form of laziness - per se. However, I am sure that there are different degrees of laziness and the reasons why...such as, a person may become lazy because of an illness, sitting at the computer all the time, and doing repetitive non-healthy postures like sitting in front of the television all the time. Look at most Americans with arthritis...and most if not, 80% Americans do not exercise, they are fat, they do not digest what they eat it stays stuck in their bodies...therefore causing arthritis amoung other health problems. You people take everything so literally & my God all this scientific stuff about why you should or should not practice Bikram is absurd. You should go back to jogging or better yet go back to your television set, get old and fat and forget about yoga. Bikram speaks in very simple terms - it makes perfect sense to me:~) Who cares about all the RUMORS and GOSSIP about Bikram...is there anyone out there that can see beyond this BS...Oh, I forget, people that are doing a good practice don't hang out in places like this...no wonder there is nobody on this Bikram list, you guys ran them off. Have a great day and Happy Sivaratri Day!! |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Cyndi - 2005-03-08 8:16 AM
Actually, and please no offense here, but arthritis is a form of laziness - per se.
What rubbish! |
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| YogaBrien:
I do not recall being given a copy of any such study. Sorry I can't help you out!
Cyndi:
No offense taken, I'm sure, since the value of your opinion is questionable. I refer to your own acknowledgement that "people that are doing a good practice don't hang out in places like this". |
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| Allright! Cyndi got all riled up cause folks disagreed with her--welcome to the dark side kiddo. Now you know and I feel when people swallow all the Bikram crap and re-spout it as the Word. |
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| Cyndi,
your (and Bikram's) generalities are simplistic, unfortunate and defensive. My mother had knee replacement surgery last year after struggling with osteoarthritis for a couple of years. She has xc skied, hiked, kayaked, snowshoed my entire life. I do not call that laziness.....
As far as your other statement - sorry but I have issues with your blanket statement as well. I still go to a Bikram class once or twice a week, with a grain of salt mind you, but I am also now balancing it with a good technique class. But there are times where the class crosse the line. Last night the heat/humidity was ridiculous and I had to pull way back even though I am in pretty good shape. I looked around at a bunch of newbies struggling away, form all over the place, trying the advance postures and the instructor made no comment. I think critical thinking is important and I believe it is possible to see the beneficial parts of the series, but not be blind to it's dangers.
Maria |
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| Cyndi,
Hatha yoga is a science. The lineage in which Bikram comes from encourages this. The Ghosh's yoga center is school which uses the science of Hatha yoga to heal people. While I certainly would love to take Bikram at face value regarding exercise high temp being more beneficial then not, my personal experiences in both practicing and teaching from the 84 asanas lend me to the belief that doing yoga in temps over your body heat is not good long term health.
So, seeing as the asanas (Bikram included) are a science they should be able to withstand a little time under the microscope. Bikram himself made the claims that Japanese scientists did research and came to a conclusion regarding his series. I would like to see and compare the research to modern sports medicine findings and once and for all settle any debate regarding this issue.
It is obvious that Bikram is very knowledgeable regarding the asanas. His personal knowledge of the body is impressive. His wife is even more so. They both come from a school that teaches the science of yoga. If they talk about the science, why is it so hard to believe that someone within their lineage would want know more about it? (I am a student of Tony Sanchez www.usyoga.org for more about my teacher)
Edited by yogabrian 2005-03-08 1:28 PM
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Good Luck finding the Japan story to be true.
Once you do, try verifying the Nixon phlebitis BS, the Olympic participation BS, and the Shirley McClaine story. These are all just Tall Tales. Though I admit these are/were preferable to his sharing how he lost his virginity and the commentary with "what's wrong with Woman" drivel during training.
To anyone who really believes all of his Ego Driven Spewing-
I have a bridge out East I'd like you to take a look at. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Hi Brian, Yoga means Union with God. It is not a science in the way we - Americans know it and apply it, okay. I will never accept the scientific definition of yoga according to the western mind...never. There are specific reasons why some people have difficulty with the heat and it cannot be generalized in a scientific one size fits all answer like westerners would like to have. Not to mention the situation with heat can be corrected in medical terms which is why they have Ayurvedic Medicine (which is more of a science) and TCM. Sorry, but western medicine does not come close to helping people deal with their heat related issues because they don't know how to deal with it except to NOT deal with it all...kinda like where some people like to go on this forum where Bikram is concerned. This is like beating your head up against the wall...meanwhile, since I am having great success with Bikram as well as others I know, I am not going to wait for science to tell me its okay or not okay to practice. Good luck beating your head up against the wall:~) I say that jokingly but half serious. Anyway, now I know what they mean now when they say American's are practicing "Still Born Yoga". |
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| Cyndi,
I'm glad you're satisfied with your Bikram practice--seriously. I certainly was too. When I became dissatisfied from an asana perspective, I left it behind. I'm a total empirical, pragmatic kind of guy--when I cease receiving the results I work for, I don't partake--be it based in anecdote or documented proof.
Now when it comes to "spreading the word as gospel" or unsavory business practices, when I get screwed and I see others receive the similar shaft, Bikram--and more so his disciples--are in my crosshairs. |
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| Matrika--welcome aboard--I assume you are/were a Bikramite? |
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| Thanks for your welcome Bruce. (that sounded strange...)
I love the heat. I love the yoga. I'll post about that good stuff with you all day and night.
but B.S. is B.S. and " I calls 'em like I sees 'em".
Edited by slave2sweat 2005-03-08 2:37 PM
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| I used to love the heat myself. After 2 years though, found it was holding me back. Doing much better these days at room temp--and sweating just as much. |
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| Cyndi,
HATHA yoga does have scientific principles. Especially in regards to anatomy and kinesiology. Through the bending, stretching and twisting in the asanas you create an environment in which fresh blood can flow through organs and improve health. Bikram teaches this, in fact most yogis I know of talk about this. How is that not science?
I believe this process is not one to beat one's head against the wall. The truth is out there is you search for it.
Here is just a little of what I have been able to uncover.
1. Ghosh's (Bikram's teacher) yoga center was place where more the 26 asanas were practiced. Their yoga therapy was based on the classic 84 asanas which all yoga stems from. They did not crank up the heat. (Granted it is already hot in India)
2. Bikram while in Japan started to heat his room up (between 85-90) due to the cold conditions of Japan.
3. When Bikram came to America, he would stretch (doing the floor series only) in a steam bath or sauna and found that he was more flexible in the high heat.
4. During the late 70-mid 80's his rooms where roughly 90 on a hot day it would peak near the 100 mark.
5. At Ghosh's yoga center, there is a heavy emphasis on yoga as therapy. The people certified there are trained well in how the asanas affect the body. This is why; Bikram and his wife really do know a lot about how yoga affects the body.
6. The Indians I don't believe use TCM as it is Chinese not Indian.
This is just the surface of information. I do believe that Bikram may have had the research done. If it exists, one way or another I will find it.
As per our last back and forth, I contacted a few of TCM people who I know in my area to be highly qualified and very respected in their field. They all disagree with your belief that extended exercise in high heat is good for long term health. They all seem to think that the toll placed on the kidneys due to the sweating would be too great depending on the individual. So please excuse me if I no longer listen to your opinions on the subject.
To the rest of the group.
I understand that everyone seems to have a problem with Bikram, Both as a person and his yoga. I do not. I have great respect for the man. I am trying to gather information impartially. Please if you can't help, don't give put downs. I need facts, not negative vibes. Thank you all for your feedback.
Brian
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| OK -- just a few thoughts and then I'm gone.
Maybe I'm reading the posts wrong, but I didn't think that when Cyndi said arthritis is attributed to being"lazy" she meant it the negative way it's being taken. I thought she said that in addition to "laziness", immobility or overuse was often causing the arthritis. (She may correct me if I'm wrong . . .)
I think this type of misinterpretation is a common problem with Bikram. There is a language barrier and often what is said in Bikram's English is not exactly what he is trying to convey.
I recently came back to viewing this forum and it does seem that the board has become increasingly "anti-Bikram". I don't know what happened -- before we seemed to be able to discuss the pros & cons of the yoga in a way that was beneficial. By getting feedback from others, we could improve on our alignment & theory in areas where the "dialogue" failed us.
I have to agree with yogabrien -- I don't agree with everything Bikram says and disliked much of my teacher training, but all this Bikram bashing is a turn-off.
Adios! |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Whatever the ambiguities in Cyndi's comments, Bikram's published statements
on arthritis are pretty hard to misunderstand. I refer you to the section at the
back of his book where he discusses medical conditions. He essentially says
that people get arthritis because they are lazy. I think that kind of comment is
insulting to every person who has ever gotten this disease, in any of its many
forms --- the worst of which are autoimmune in character.
I'll add that I have known several people who have obtained substantial relief
from arthritis by practicing Bikram yoga.
As for the changing tone of the boards...hmm...some of the people who post
here often have indeed gotten less enthusiastic about Bikram, but I wonder
whether there's also a trend outside this board regarding public attitudes
toward Bikram. Look what's happened in the last year or two: the Yogaunity
lawsuit against Bikram; the New York Times article that was very critical of
Bikram yoga; and the Yoga Journal article that was very skeptical of the
franchising idea. Bikram has a serious image problem, no way around it.
I hope that he'll take seriously the negatives that keep coming up; some of these
things are easily corrected by altering the message in teacher training (e.g., the heat
doesn't have to be super high and heat stroke is a physiological response not a
consequence of inadequate effort...more time spent on anatomy and injury
avoidance). Maybe get a bit more flexibility into the dialog and the routine, allow
teachers to do varied classes that will help their business (e.g., silent classes, advanced
asanas, second set variations for some poses, etc etc). I really do believe that most
people who take the Bikram teacher training are trying to learn to be good yoga
teachers. Give them what they need, and the image problem will go away.
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| I would like to echo My Cat's Mom's post. This Bikram forum has gone down the tubes. It is very negative and really doesn't help anybody. People like me (who love Bikram yoga, but don't buy into the man as a person), have been turned off from this site in general. I do enjoy some of the other forums, but this one is not a positive place. I don't get your point here Bay Guy, it looks like this has somehow turned personal with you. These attacks on the yoga and the man seem like a personal vent, not a helpful sharing experience. I've read many of your other posts in other forums, and never thought this way about you. I am disappointed about how this has has evolutionalized to a completely negative place. I know that Bikram yoga is not the "one" best yoga out there, that cures all your ails. But, I also don't believe alot of other stuff out there I read in the news or learned in school. People exaggerate, and I am sure that Bikram does his fair share of exaggeration. But he's human!
So let's just move on and clear the air here. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Well, I thought Bay Guy's post was pretty balanced and calm myself. Maybe the Bikram lovers need to just jump in and tell us some of the great stuff that is going on in their classes and we'll all get positive with them.  |
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| Well I just wanted to say one more thing. I don't think I should have called out one person in particular, that wasn't kind. I don't frequent the boards much anymore, but I have noticed a change. Maybe it was more positive when Bruce was practicing and he kept everything cheery (since he seems to put a positive spin on things most times). |
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| Hmm it's gone all quiet here !
Cyndi - 2005-03-08 1:40 PM
I am not going to wait for science to tell me its okay or not okay to practice.
Cyndi the issue of science would not have arisen if Bikram had not apparently made those claims about medical studies that validate his methods.
Yogabrian, I did a search on Entrez-Pubmed ( which is how you go about finding an article in just about any medical/nursing/allied health journal ). There were no hits under 'Bikram Yoga'. There were 37 hits under 'Hatha Yoga', none of which has any Japanese person or Bikram as authors, and none which refer to yoga in high temperture explicitly. There were over 770 hits under 'yoga' and I couldn't be bothered looking through all of them. The other possibility is that this stuff might have been presented at some medical conference and never got published.
I also had a look at the Bikram website and couldn't find any reference about medical studies, although I read an article on Bikram yoga in one of my local magazines written by a certified Bikram teacher that stated that Bikram developed his yoga in conjunction with doctors in Tokyo University. I am wondering where or if Bikram actually made this claim ( not having read his books ), or is it one of those 'Bikram legends', maybe someone can enlighten me on this one.
Yogabrian I also saw an email address for Bikram in his website, maybe you can try emailing him directly and ask him ?  Maybe he has the study, especially if it was unpublished.
Ooh this is getting like the Da Vinci code...search for the Holy Grail...  |
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| YogaBrian,
Did you ever find the research you were looking for? I'm trying to put together a pitch for a feature news story on Bikram Yoga benefits and I need to find this research if it is available. Otherwise, I'll have to go another angle.
Namaste
-Sarah |
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| YogininSarah,
No I never did. Email were never return from the Yoga college of india. |
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one for the Bikram teachers
