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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
  
Location: A Blue State |
My wife and I managed dinner by ourselves this evening, and one of the many things
we talked about was death. Not to any particular event or purpose, but just as the inevitable
end of what we all do here together and, really, on our own. We are born, we grow, we have
dreams and goals that we pursue, and we grow older, slow down, perhaps become unhealthy,
and eventually pass away. For all of us, I think, the problem is that we accumulate so
much knowledge, sophistication, and vision for what the world should be that it is almost
unbearable to admit that a lifetime of work and understanding must be given up to others,
if it will even continue at all.
So many things are left by us in an effort to preserve that knowledge...the education of our
children, endowments & estates & institutions, wills & trusts, diaries, novels, conversations &
lectures, and so on and so on. In one way or another, our legacy is composed of all the things
we used to touch others.
All of the above is obvious, but what I don't understand is this:
I can appreciate my own role in making a better world for those who will live after me.
I can see purpose to life in that. I also enjoy the simple fact of existing. And I will eventually
die. Every religion provides me with an explanation (god says so) or an avoidance (I will be
live again) of the fact of death. But forget about reasons for death. The question is how
I can make the best choices before my own death comes....what does "best" mean?
Best for whom? Best in what sense? I have only so many years to go --- how to I decide how
to use them?
Bay Guy
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| Dear Brother Bay Guy:
This is my response:
Best means: If you have interest in doing something in this world, or for this world, doing that.
If you have interest in Self Realziation, then giving up the mental attachment (NOT contact or association) to the world, and continue spiritual practice, that is the best choice. If you are in between, then an appropriate mixture of this.
I am pleasantly intrigued by your possibilites or talking Death with your Beloved, at the dinner table.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Where ever you are, that is best. Best is whatever you precieve best to be. And it is up to you to be best for your life, whether it's for you or for the good of humankind.
Best does not mean being the end-all be-all. It means contributing in your own way, no matter how big or small, and it is also up to you to decide whether you want to do it at all. |
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| Our Brother Bay Guy, during a romantic spousal dinner discussing death (you are a party animal) pondered: "how I can make the best choices before my own death comes....what does "best" mean? Best for whom? Best in what sense? I have only so many years to go --- how to I decide how to use them?"
Seems you questioning this is similar to being nominated for an Academy Award--it's an honor just to be considered. Similarly, the fact that you are concerned about doing what's best is like that nomination--you're doing a good thing. Now what action follows can eventually earn that award or not--and you know what happens to those who don't win--they're soon forgotten about.
I've often thought if God appeared before me and said, "Tell me one thing you've done that has had a far-reaching impact on the betterment of Mankind or I'm taking you out of the game," I'd be screwed cause I can't think of anything fairly big or important--just maybe some small things that probably wouldn't hack it. I think that's why I want to be a serious yoga teacher and cater to folks of my mind set--possibly to show them the light. I can't save the world, stop a tsunami or eliminate all lunatics terrorists so this may have to do.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| Bay Guy - I think perhaps all we can do is to keep asking the questions. As Bruce said - just that is an accomplishment in itself. And although the fact that you are having this conversation with your wife on a rare evening alone shows the depth of your relationship, and a sure sign that you value each other enough to get into some seriously tough issues, I would humbly suggest that you change the venue. Or at least not use this topic as a conversation starter the next time you get some time together  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2005-03-20 9:10 AM
I am pleasantly intrigued by your possibilites or talking Death with your Beloved, at the dinner table.
...talking with the person who will share my future, about our shared future, and how
we should best proceed. We also talked about how much we love each other, how
to cover the kids' college tuition, when we might buy a new house, and whether
we should both order the same appetizer. We shared a plate of cheeses and quince
for dessert.
Opps, time to go have dinner (with the kids tonight...conversation will be lighter).
Thank you all for your replies, and I hope to read more.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | What about the simplicity of leaving not a trace, giving something back that will be meaningful so that future generations will benefit...I always think about what would it be like if all my efforts and good merits were part of a process of the divine plan in creating an enlightened society. Raising the human consciousness or vibration of the planet so that there is a future of life on earth so that others will have an opportunity to live out their karmas so they too can become enlightened.
About giving our knowledge and giving it to others so that it can continue..I had to phone a beekeeper in my area so that she could help me with my honeybees. Well, she was very helpful and answered my questions, gave me more information that I actually called for and told me to call her anytime. During our conversation, whe mentioned how hard it was for her to get help from the old timers because they had the attitude that you should dig for it and figure it out yourself. That really scared the h&*l out of me, what if everyone on this earth had that attitude...its no wonder that agriculture, parenting, arts of cooking and simple domestic life and so many others are becoming a lost art...Soo, may you live a long life so that you can use your years wisely and do something meaningful - make every day count as if it were your last:~)
Namaste` |
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| Cyndi - 2005-03-20 6:49 PM
What about the simplicity of leaving not a trace, giving something back that will be meaningful so that future generations will benefit...I always think about what would it be like if all my efforts and good merits were part of a process of the divine plan in creating an enlightened society. Raising the human consciousness or vibration of the planet so that there is a future of life on earth so that others will have an opportunity to live out their karmas so they too can become enlightened.
So, may you live a long life so that you can use your years wisely and do something meaningful - make every day count as if it were your last:~)
Namaste`
What a beautiful thing to write, Cyndi. I feel that this "evolution" of humankind is what it is all about also. In the end, we are all as impermanent as a rock. Anything that we do, create, build or otherwise physically constuct will be as "dust in the wind." Even if we believe in the reincarnation of the seed of our soul it it must find an end of some sort. Helping others in all possible ways is the best course of action in my opinion. Compassion, love, joy, equanimity, peace, happiness......these are the only worthwhile pursuits that will create causes for wonderful effects in the future. Helping the earth to rebuild herself after all of the destructive things we as humans have done to her is also important. Finding equitable political choices and "real" politicians who believe in helping humankind and not exploiting it, are also good places to go with this energy.
BTW, I, too am a beekeeeper, and I learned most of the "art" from an old man in Oklahoma. He was VERY helpful. His name was Bill McLaughlin and his wife was Bea (very fitting name for her, don't you think?). Some from the older generation ARE here to help us. It just seems that many aren't! 
Namaste |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| >>they had the attitude that you should dig for it and figure it out yourself.<<
So some of the old time beekeepers had a similar attitude to old time gurus! I think a balance between being spoon fed information and trying it out yourself is probably best. That is what home practice is compared to class. But those old guys were clearly not gurus  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Redtail, where did you get that name from?? I used to use that name a lot. The reason I used it was because I had African Grey parrots and they had a redtail. Anyway, very interesting. I like the Tibetan mantra your using as an avatar. Is it om mani padme hum? I think Tibetan writing is very unique and so are Tibetans.
Speaking of Tibetans...has any one ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead by Robert Thurman?? or the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche. There are also numerous others that have been written by many with this same title. These are interesting books that take you through the process of dying and the meaning and about life...very interesting to read even if you are or are not a Buddhist. These books are very thought provoking to say the least, about life and death. |
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| Cyndi - 2005-03-21 7:47 PM
Redtail, where did you get that name from?? I like the Tibetan mantra your using as an avatar. Is it om mani padme hum? I think Tibetan writing is very unique and so are Tibetans.
has any one ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead by Robert Thurman?? or the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche.
Cyndi: I received that name in college from my friends and my wife at the time. I have long light brown/reddish hair and they seemed to think that it looked like I had a red tail. I now use the name for my tile setting business and my e-mail handles. I also REALLY like to watch that particular bird fly and see them quite frequently no matter where I go. There are a pair that live close the house of my girlfriend and I. They are really getting talkative these days (with spring here and such) and it sounds awesome to hear them making loving noises to each other. We live on the side of a mountain valley at about 9000 ft. altitude so we get many of the native wild birds and animals in our yard. The avatar is the OM MANE PADME HUM (tbt. OM MANE PEME HUNG) and is also known as the mantra of compassion or the mantra of Avalokitshvara (tbt. Chenrezig), the bodhisattva of compassion.
I have not read the Tibetan Book of the Dead by Robert Thurman, but I would HIGHLY recommend the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche. There is also a service that Rigpa USA does every day called "Rigpa Glimpse of the Day." IT is available by e-mail through their website. I believe it is rigpaus.org but I am not sure. A search would probably yield the right website. These books and the website are highly informative and interesting.
Bay Guy: Thanks for sharing a bit of the conversation that you and your wife had that started this thread. I feel that more people should at least think about this topic in a healthy way. It seems that most humans want to ignore or stifle one of the most important events of our lives!! It should be a huge topic that is taught at an early age. I feel that our state of mind at the time of death has an ENORMOUS impact on what happens during our death after we die.
Namaste |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Redtail --- I should say thanks to all for letting me share my problem. I think that I've
spent most of my life on this question, but I can't say that I've made much progress
in answering it. It's a question with no single correct answer, and one that has many many
bad answers offered for it, the worst being to ignore it. Would you agree that anyone who
thinks seriously about dying will feel one or both of two strong pulls: toward utter selfishness
or toward utter compassion? Most peole seem to mix both and to swerve toward one or the
other from time to time. I'm tempted to say that aging moves you toward compassion, but
so many counter examples come to mind (the baby boom generation being one, no?).
It's interesting to me to see Robert Thurman's translation of the TBoftheD here.
I have a friend who knows him well. His daughter is the actress Uma Thurman. I'll have
to check out the book. |
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| BG, I’m sorry to spoil your thread.. But as usual I have a crazy question spinning on my head and I really need to ask you this
Do you guys (in western countries) always think about your death?
One of my customers (US) talked to me and he said he needs to make a site like this
http://www.partingwishes.com/ (I mean same business model)
How many of you will be using a site like this if available??? Basically this allows you to create the will online, Type messages and keep them in your outbox, so once you die these will be delivered to your loved ones, You can tell others this is the way you need your funeral to be arranged and lot more information you can store at a cost..
I was really thinking about this.. As this was something strange and weird to me.. Do you guys use a site like this??? Is this a good business model there??
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | The reason why most Americans always *think* about their death is because they are in a huge CONFLICT with Death and Life. The replies to BG's original contemplation have been *sugar coated sweet*, to say the least. The object of living is NOT about finding compassion when you get old, the object is to find compassion NOW...right now! Unfortunately, most OLDER people I have witnessed are some of the most Selfish people on earth....that is truly unfortunate...then you wonder why little kids go on shooting rampages and are in complete turmoil in their minds...due to total confusion and mainly because they are unloved and unwanted by their selfish parents!! For the ones who have found the dharma, count your blessings, as most human beings are in a critical state of suffering. Contemplate on that one then recite Om Mani Padme Hung - the mantra for His Holiness the Dalai Lama. |
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| Bay Guy - 2005-03-19 9:03 PM
So many things are left by us in an effort to preserve that knowledge...the education of our
children, endowments & estates & institutions, wills & trusts, diaries, novels, conversations &
lectures, and so on and so on. In one way or another, our legacy is composed of all the things
we used to touch others.
All of the above is obvious, but what I don't understand is this:
I can appreciate my own role in making a better world for those who will live after me.
I can see purpose to life in that. I also enjoy the simple fact of existing. And I will eventually
die. Every religion provides me with an explanation (god says so) or an avoidance (I will be
live again) of the fact of death. But forget about reasons for death. The question is how
I can make the best choices before my own death comes....what does "best" mean?
Best for whom? Best in what sense? I have only so many years to go --- how to I decide how
to use them?
Bay Guy
These things that you describe that are left by us in an effort to descibe us are not really us. They are simply objects, feelings, and desires that are impermanent and will pass away with time. They are not really "us." They are our ego telling us that they are "us." Legacy is a product of the ego and karma.
Back to the original question. Again, I think that Cyndi's last post is begging for a place in the answer to your question, Bay Guy. Compassion, love, peace, joy, equanimity, just about any word that comes to mind that reflects "goodness and kindness" could be inserted here and would work. Just living and being IN THE MOMENT, not attached to the moment, not averted by the moment, but simply witnessing and feeling it pass will allow a place for the karma that created that moment to find an "escape hatch." As we find this "place" in our minds, bliss and joy arise (this is the same bliss and joy that come from meditation--during meditation we sometimes find this ability to calmly abide in the moment, but most of the time we can't find the means to bring it to every moment in our lives). Every moment is different because of the karma that created that moment. By not actively forcing participation in the moment, but simply feeling it, witnessing it, and having compassion for that moment and the karma that created it, and for YOURSELF in it, one has created a good cause for the further moments that are to be realized. Liberation and/or enlightenment is the realization that one can calmly abide in the moment without creating more karma (either positive or negative) from that moment. This is that hard to find meaning for the word "emptiness" and the way of what the masters call "skillful means."
So, once again, I would have to say that the answer lies in being compassionate, honest, kind, all of those "good" words that come to mind, in any given moment. I feel that this is the "simple" answer to your question of "what does best mean?" As we die, our thoughts, attitudes, and the environment that this event takes place in, will be causes for other future events or not. So, the actual moment of our death event is VERY important. It should be cherished as a possibility for the cessation of all of our suffering or as a possible cause for more suffering.
It might be time to roll up the old pantaloon legs--it's gettin' deep!!
Namaste |
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| Here's a question. If "compassion", "kindess", "honesty" are the "good" things that we're supposed to live by, how is that decided? I mean, aren't these simply characteristics that we as humans have decided are "honorable"? That seems to be just another example of human-imposed ego on a way of living. I'm not advocating destruction, chaos, or dishonesty, as I have decided that I prefer those attributes in my life, but who decided what's good and bad? What do we know?  |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Lora, are you saying that you do not know how to distinguish negative forces?? Do you think to commit murder is right? Do you think stealing is right? Do you think greed, anger, jealousy, and hatred are positive forces?? If you can contemplate on these things, then you will get your answer. There is a right way and there is truth. Living a life based on honesty, kindness, compassion, love certainly helps to establish peace, not only within yourself, but outwards to others whereever you go, whereas negative forces only bring chaos and destruction. So you tell me? What do you know?? If you can honestly say that these negative forces bring peace to you, then I would say to you that your thinking was not correct and you have been misinformed. If you say they do not bring you peace, but yet you still don't know, that is called denial and perhaps ignorance (I'm not calling you ignorant). It is not up to someone else i.e. government leaders and politians, or even our religious leaders to figure this out for us, we have to figure this out for ourselves and then live from that place in order to raise human concsciousness and move towards an enlightened society so that peace can prevail. The only way to do this is to get our heads out of the sand and take repsonsibility for our actions and our thinking.
Now, having all that said, we KNOW that these negative forces exists..but do we have to give them energy? Below is an quote from Joel Goldsmith's book The Art of Spiritual Healing:
When disease (like death and sin) is called unreal, it is not a denial of the so-called existence of these things. It is a denial of their existence as a part of God or reality....In the realm of the real, the kingdom of God, the discords of sense have no existence. That however does not change the fact that we suffer from them.....the beginning of wisdom is the realization that these conditions need not exist. |
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| Cyndi, in my post I clearly stated that I am not advocating the "negative forces" that you're referring to. My point is simply that we're not "supposed to" form attachments or judgements of things as good or evil, yet we've decided (or had it decided for us) that honesty and kindness are "good" and lying and stealing are "bad". Does compassion and kindness bring us peace because it genuinely brings us peace on a visceral level, or because from such an early age we're taught by parents, society, sunday school, whatever that behaving with those principles will bring fulfillment?
When we're told that someone is honest, we automatically feel more positive towards him than we would if we were told that he were a thief. Yet the situation could easily be reversed if we were taught from childhood that "thief" is a positive description and "honest" negative. The same holds true for the characteristics themselves, not just the words. A child raised with the lessons that stealing and killing are common and something to strive for will find peace in those actions due to familiarity, just as a child raised with the beliefs that kindness is the ideal will find peace there. |
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| Ok, just reread my first post and realized that I didn't exactly "clearly explain" that I am not advocating the "bad stuff". Sorry! 
It's what I meant, of course, but it got jumbled. |
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| Dear LoraB:
I just saw your question and here is my answer. Actually, the question is interesting, but the answer is rather simple and obvious.
Your Q: Related to honesty, kindness, etc. Are these imposiions of ego? Who decided them etc.?
Answer: Naturally, wihout any doubt, all people, good or bad, automatically like others to be kind to them, to be loving to them, to be honest to them during the transactions, etc. Because, this happens in each and every individual's case, they are formed (imposed in your language) as Natural and Good. jaatideshakaalasamayaanavachchinaa saarvabhaumaa mahavratam.... to be followed regardless of birth, place and time. ... patanjali : 300 b.c.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Lora, I knew you were not advocating negative forces in my post...I read through the lines very clearly. I wrote my response generally speaking so that you could think about your original question. I wasn't stating you were ignorant or anything like that...it was very general. I personally feel that after we KNOW what the good and the bad things are, what causes life to become unbalanced and the negative things that cause chaos and destruction - it is then our responsibility to NEVER go back, only to move forward and out of the past. Of course, many of us who are on this spiritual journey are simply having our personal learning experiences with the forces of CAUSE and EFFECT. It's a trial and error thing. Sometimes if your not paying attention, it can slam you down to the ground. If you are paying attention, then you can learn how to become the master...which is the ultimate goal in my very humble opinion. Take care. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
I agree with Neel's observation about how people like others to
treat them, but some people seem to take the attitude that because
life is short, they should do as much as they can for themselves while
they are here without worrying to much about others. The rest of us
spend a lot of time trying to get such people to treat others the way that
they themselves would like to be treated.
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| that is interesting brother bay guy.
neel kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Hey guys, gurus,
Can you please answer to my question ???? |
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| Whats happening here... its me Thushara
Ohh .. new feature??? Without login we can post as a guest 
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Living and Dying
