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| I am an Atheist and Secular Humanist. Last week friend of mine who is also secular got into a discussion with me about Yoga. She attempted Yoga classes for awhile but the spiritual aspects made her uncomfortable. Although she enjoyed the asana and breath work she ultimately decided to stop her practice. She had trouble understanding how I didn't find Yoga to be in conflict with my own beliefs.
Ever since our conversation I've been thinking a lot about this. I'd like to discuss it with other Secular Yogis, but I've never met anyone else who is. Obviously Yoga isn't a religion, but it does seem to assume that everyone believes in some form of deity of divinity. At least that's what I'm discovering as I explore deeper into Yoga and related philosophies.
I suppose I don't even know what I'm asking. As I said I don't feel a personal conflict but the subject is of interest to me. Has anyone else had any experience with this? Any book or article suggestions? Thanks. |
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| I've never been sure whether I beleive in God or not. I believe there is true good and true evil present in the world, it's just when these concepts are personified I start to get the twitches  I guess the nearest I ever get to believing in a God is when I'm totally at peace in a garden.
For me, I'm actually attracted to the spiritual aspects of yoga as I feel there's been something missing in my life for some time. I feel that all religions share a certain common set of rules that may be summarised as 'do no harm'. Yoga shares this root and it's one I think all can adopt in thier life regardless of whether they have faith or not.
Fee
Edited by Orbilia 2005-04-04 4:32 AM
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| Dear CCG:
I love and respect your honesty when you say: I suppose I don't even know what I'm asking. As I said I don't feel a personal conflict but the subject is of interest to me. Has anyone else had any experience with this? Any book or article suggestions? Thanks.
Now, the next step will be: First trying to formulate/know/etc. your question/doubt/feeling. Then, only an answer/solution/etc. to that should be sought. In formulating the question, you play the maximum role, and therefore you have to give the maximum input and also, ultimately you are the one who has to make the Final staatement of question/doubt/feeling. Others can only assist you in this first step. I can volunteer to assist in this first step.
To start with: What do you mean by you are Atheist? What is meant by your friend NOT feeling comfortable? When you practice Yoga: What is your meaning of Yoga and What is your goal in doing Yoga?
Regards
neel kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| What's a secular humanist ?
BTW I was chatting to a guy on the plane once and I said I don't believe in 'isms', and he said, what about optimism ? realism ? Well I had to agree. I thought that was rather clever. Just thought I'd share it. |
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| Roxanne, your yoga and humanist nature has you thinking. As life adds experiences, you interact with others, face life's ups & downs, and question as you journey, you may very well alter your beliefs. You've probably heard the axiom, "There are no atheists in a foxhole." Don't think one can really appreciate the truth there until you've been in lie's foxholes where the individual is powerless to improve the situation and out of desparation, appeals to a higher power. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| Roxanne - in my mind, a comitted atheist would have little problem dealing with the spiritual aspect of yoga. They would just reject and/or ignore it. OTOH, someone who was not firm in their (dis)beliefs would feel challenged when confronted with the possibility that they might have to examine their own spirituality or lack thereof. I can see a problem if the classes were heavily into meditation and talked about spiritual aspects throughout the class. To an atheist it would just be wasting time. But as we have discussed on the christianity threads, it is definitely possible to do the asanas without believing they are a spiritual practice. Here is an analogy - if your friend went travelling, would she visit the great cathedrals of Europe? Would she observe the appropriate etiquette such as head covering? Would that make her uncomfortable that she was somehow performing a spiritual act?
Interesting question you have raised, though! |
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| kulkarnn - 2005-04-04 7:58 AM
To start with: What do you mean by you are Atheist? What is meant by your friend NOT feeling comfortable? When you practice Yoga: What is your meaning of Yoga and What is your goal in doing Yoga?
I'm an Atheist in the most literal meaning of the word. I don't believe in a deity, and I don't believe in any afterlife, reincarnation etc. etc. etc. I'm also not out to prove my beliefs to anyone or myself, and simply choose to live my own life with the understanding death is the end. Like most secular folks ethics, and repsect for humanity play a huge role in how I live my life.
My friend's discomfort made me sad more than anything. I don't believe she felt welcome in the community in part because of the spiritual aspects of Yoga.
My own goals in Yoga keep changing. At first I wanted to lose weight and relieve stress. After about a month I stopped caring about weight, and yoga became a journey of communicating with my body and learning to respect it's abilities. Yoga has essentially ended the war that I once fought with myself. Now I'm starting to go even deeper into the philosophies, and pranayama work.
For me there isn't a conflict. The Yama and the Niyamas, with the exception of Ishvara Pranidhana, seem to me like a code of ethics right in line with my own. I am enjoying the study, though obviously I don't always agree but I can't think of anything in my life I agree with totally.
I guess I worry that as I continue a conflict might arise, especially if in a few years I decide to train to be a teacher (something that admittedly is in the back of my mind). I'm also interested to learn if others have had similiar experiences and what their thoughts were. Discussing this with others can be another step in my own exploration of Yoga. |
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| Bruce - 2005-04-04 10:29 AM
Roxanne, your yoga and humanist nature has you thinking. As life adds experiences, you interact with others, face life's ups & downs, and question as you journey, you may very well alter your beliefs. You've probably heard the axiom, "There are no atheists in a foxhole." Don't think one can really appreciate the truth there until you've been in lie's foxholes where the individual is powerless to improve the situation and out of desparation, appeals to a higher power.
I have heard that saying. I have also been in a situation where I was in fact powerless and close to death. The idea of appealing to a higher power never occured to me because I don't believe such a power exists. Frankly I find that saying to be smug and insulting.
When my Grandmother was dying the hospital kept trying to force a chaplain on her. Her nurses and doctors couldn't comprehend that she didn't want any counseling of the religious nature. She couldn't understand why they wouldn't let her die in peace in the way she wanted to, and respect her beliefs. Again, appealing to a higher power that she didn't believe existed was a pointless excercise.
There is a common misconception that Atheists are simply angry at god or the universe. But you can't be angry at what you don't recognize in the first place. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | bomberpig - 2005-04-04 9:34 AM
What's a secular humanist ?
Similar to an "ethical humanist", I suppose. These are people who practice
certain spirtual beliefs without having any particular divine being at the top.
Some friends of mine had a beautiful wedding in the Ethical Humanist tradition.
I was interested enough to investigate a bit more, but I couldn't find much of
a core set of beliefs.
Here's a link for further information:
http://www.aeu.org/index.html
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | CGG - 2005-04-04 11:05 AM
Bruce - 2005-04-04 10:29 AM
Roxanne, your yoga and humanist nature has you thinking. As life adds experiences, you interact with others, face life's ups & downs, and question as you journey, you may very well alter your beliefs. You've probably heard the axiom, "There are no atheists in a foxhole." Don't think one can really appreciate the truth there until you've been in lie's foxholes where the individual is powerless to improve the situation and out of desparation, appeals to a higher power.
I have heard that saying. I have also been in a situation where I was in fact powerless and close to death. The idea of appealing to a higher power never occured to me because I don't believe such a power exists. Frankly I find that saying to be smug and insulting.
Amazing that this phrase should come up today. I was talking about that very phrase
at dinner last night (hint: I don't like it). The point is that when one is confronted
with imminent death, there's a natural tendency to try to avoid it -- as by seeking divine
intervention or reassurance.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | tourist - 2005-04-04 10:38 AM
Roxanne - in my mind, a comitted atheist would have little problem dealing with the spiritual aspect of yoga. They would just reject and/or ignore it. OTOH, someone who was not firm in their (dis)beliefs would feel challenged when confronted with the possibility that they might have to examine their own spirituality or lack thereof. I can see a problem if the classes were heavily into meditation and talked about spiritual aspects throughout the class. To an atheist it would just be wasting time. But as we have discussed on the christianity threads, it is definitely possible to do the asanas without believing they are a spiritual practice. Here is an analogy - if your friend went travelling, would she visit the great cathedrals of Europe? Would she observe the appropriate etiquette such as head covering? Would that make her uncomfortable that she was somehow performing a spiritual act?
Interesting question you have raised, though!
I agree with all of this. I'll add that yoga had such profound physical and mental benefits
for me that I was moved to reassess decades of deliberate unspirituality and vocal atheism.
I still can't accept the notion of an active god (one who micromanages, or even thinks about,
human affairs), and I can't buy supernaturalism (flying yogis or water turning into wine),
and I can't take seriously most religious doctrine (with its pat answers to difficult human
problems), but I have come to believe that the human
psyche desires some kind of spiritual structure. Thousands of years of human wisdom are
mixed into all the great religious texts (along with dogma, mythology, and nonsense), and
it is hubris to ignore that wisdom on the sole basis of discounting diety. For me, there's
particularly great relevance in the Yoga Sutras where they deal with attachments,
conduct, and the search for peace.
In my mind, all of this collective humanity is what defines god, and god therefore pervades
all of us and all that we do --- Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma (from the Chandogya
Upanishad, ch.3). My own efforts to "become one with god" are directed at this humanity.
I don't know anything at all about dieties, I'm afraid.
There's a line in one of Palestrina's motets that addresses this desire for
the divine (from Psalm 42):
Sicut Cervus desiderat ad fontes aquarum, ita anima mea a te Deus.
One need not be a christian, or even bother to define "god" to appreciate the desire.
("As the Hart longs for the streams of water, so my soul [longs] for you, [O] God").
To come back to the question about yoga and spirituality, that's going to differ for each
person. For me, yoga was the trigger for desires that were latent, and it helped me
to realize better how I could separate spirituality from religious doctrine without simply
drifting into collection of fuzzy new-agey metaphors (have I mentioned that I'm down on
"new age" anything?). For our friend Jeri, yoga is just stretching and christianity is her path.
For Brother Neel, yoga is the complete foundation for life and an element of Hindu religion.
Oh...got get back to work...
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| Dear CCG:
I liked your description in the answers to my questions above. This is my response to your original question considering what you wrote as answers to my questions. Of course, if your answers to my questions change, my response also shall be modified.
- As for your friend, she probably has social problem, and also if you become teacher and you are atheistt, you shall have the problem. The problem is NOT that you are atheist. Problem is due to the fact that "Majority are NOT atheist, and minority is, which shall have problem". This majority and minority problem has always been there, in all fields, language, religion, caste, creed, economy, food habits, and whatever. So, you have to accept this situation and come up with a solution based on your philosophy.
- Now, out of all the goals you mentioned, except the goal of Philosophy and Social Acceptance in Yoga Circles, you do NOT need to believe in any deity, you do NOT have to do any Ishwarapranidhana.
- However, if you wish to get Philsophy knowledge, initially you do NOT need any Ishwarapranidhan. Patanjali says Ishwaraprranidhanadva... va means OR.
- However, final samadhi state is impossible without Ishwara Pranidhana. samaadhisidhdhiH Ishwarapranidhanat.
- So, you do not have to worry if you do not want the Ishwarapranidhan in the initial stages.
- And, if you are confused or unclear about Ishwara, then you need to get that sorted out.
Best Luck
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | I have a question for CGG and anyone else who claims they are Atheist. What do you believe in?? |
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| Bay Guy - 2005-04-04 12:15 PM
bomberpig - 2005-04-04 9:34 AM
What's a secular humanist ?
Similar to an "ethical humanist", I suppose. These are people who practice
certain spirtual beliefs without having any particular divine being at the top.
Some friends of mine had a beautiful wedding in the Ethical Humanist tradition.
I was interested enough to investigate a bit more, but I couldn't find much of
a core set of beliefs.
Here's a link for further information:
http://www.aeu.org/index.html
Secular Humanism is a bit different. Ethical humanists like the rituals and community that a churchlike setting offers. They are a religion and have developed their own community rituals for weddings, births, funerals etc. Secular Humanists don't do any of that, and we do not consider ourselves as being part of a religion. |
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| The problem is NOT that you are atheist. Problem is due to the fact that "Majority are NOT atheist, and minority is, which shall have problem". This majority and minority problem has always been there, in all fields, language, religion, caste, creed, economy, food habits, and whatever. So, you have to accept this situation and come up with a solution based on your philosophy.
Thanks Neel! This is quite a relief actually. Your responses have been most helpful to me.
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| CGG wrote: "Frankly I find that saying to be smug and insulting." Why would you find either of those negative qualities in the phrase?
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| >>I still can't accept the notion of an active god (one who micromanages, or even thinks about,
human affairs), and I can't buy supernaturalism (flying yogis or water turning into wine),
and I can't take seriously most religious doctrine (with its pat answers to difficult human
problems), but I have come to believe that the human
psyche desires some kind of spiritual structure. Thousands of years of human wisdom are
mixed into all the great religious texts (along with dogma, mythology, and nonsense), and
it is hubris to ignore that wisdom on the sole basis of discounting diety. For me, there's
particularly great relevance in the Yoga Sutras where they deal with attachments,
conduct, and the search for peace.
In my mind, all of this collective humanity is what defines god, and god therefore pervades
all of us and all that we do --- Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma (from the Chandogya
Upanishad, ch.3). My own efforts to "become one with god" are directed at this humanity.
I don't know anything at all about dieties, I'm afraid.<<
Great stuff Bay Guy - we are pretty much in agreement with our philosophies, I think! That might just be a first for this forum... I like the deities (all of them from almost all religions) and I like the idea that they are faces of god or that they represent aspects of god. To me it makes the most sense to have many, many faces - as you say the "collective Humanity". It is almost like there is one diety for each individual in the collective.
>>I'm down on "new age" anything.<< I'm sure that's part of my crankiness about the incense and music. Yuck! |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| CGG - I wonder if your friend might just be more comfortable with a different yoga atmosphere? Not all classes are heavily spiritually influenced. Of course, sometimes it is a small thing that bothers someone - we do the invocation to Patanjali at the beginning of class and we always offer the choice of joining in or not or to use the time as one sees fit (some of our students have said they say the Lords Prayer) but for some even that is threatening. But still, maybe she could find a class more to her liking? Of course, maybe she is just using it as an excuse because she didn't like it at all - one never knows...
>>For me there isn't a conflict. The Yama and the Niyamas, with the exception of Ishvara Pranidhana, seem to me like a code of ethics right in line with my own. I am enjoying the study, though obviously I don't always agree but I can't think of anything in my life I agree with totally.<<
This is a really clear statement of how I think a lot of people feel. It is interesting, it is something that challenges the mind and if there are things that don't fit - fine! As Neel pointed out - you can do a lot of studyig before Ishvara Pranidhana comes in to play. Many lifetimes perhaps!
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | tourist - 2005-04-04 8:00 PM
>>For me there isn't a conflict. The Yama and the Niyamas, with the exception of Ishvara Pranidhana, seem to me like a code of ethics right in line with my own. I am enjoying the study, though obviously I don't always agree but I can't think of anything in my life I agree with totally.<<
This is a really clear statement of how I think a lot of people feel. It is interesting, it is something that challenges the mind and if there are things that don't fit - fine! As Neel pointed out - you can do a lot of studyig before Ishvara Pranidhana comes in to play. Many lifetimes perhaps!
In his book, TKV Desikachar says something to the effect that one should not push
Ishwarapranidhan upon students, and that eventually most seem to find their own
way to it.
>>> I like the deities (all of them from almost all religions) and I like the idea that they are faces of god or that they represent aspects of god. <<< Yes, faces of god or faces of
humanity.
Om nama Sivaya.
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| Bruce - 2005-04-04 3:06 PM
CGG wrote: "Frankly I find that saying to be smug and insulting." Why would you find either of those negative qualities in the phrase?
Saying that in a life or death situation an Atheist will abandon their beliefs is disrespectful. Do I really need to try and explain this further? I've been thinking about how to respond to this post all afternoon, but I just don't know what else to say. If you can't understand why I find that saying to be smug and insulting then I don't think I could explain it to you. |
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| Dear Brother BayGuy:
I am not criticizing or judging you. But, liking different deities is NOT exactly what is meant by IshwaraPranidhana. Ishwarapranidhana is in Patanjali is 'tasya vaachakah pranavah, tadjapastadarthabhaavanam'. What TvK Desikachar wrote is already covered in Patanjali by one word 'va'. Ishwarapranidhanad va. va means OR.
Also, Deity may be an initial part of Ishwarapranidhana. It culminates in total surrender erasing one's ego.
Peace
Neel |
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| Actually I'm fairly bright and was not looking to be explained to; just wondered why you would take an age-old phrase so personally. CGG - 2005-04-04 10:57 PM Bruce - 2005-04-04 3:06 PM CGG wrote: "Frankly I find that saying to be smug and insulting." Why would you find either of those negative qualities in the phrase?
Saying that in a life or death situation an Atheist will abandon their beliefs is disrespectful. Do I really need to try and explain this further? I've been thinking about how to respond to this post all afternoon, but I just don't know what else to say. If you can't understand why I find that saying to be smug and insulting then I don't think I could explain it to you. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2005-04-05 12:08 AM
Dear Brother BayGuy:
I am not criticizing or judging you. But, liking different deities is NOT exactly what is meant by IshwaraPranidhana. Ishwarapranidhana is in Patanjali is 'tasya vaachakah pranavah, tadjapastadarthabhaavanam'. What TvK Desikachar wrote is already covered in Patanjali by one word 'va'. Ishwarapranidhanad va. va means OR.
Also, Deity may be an initial part of Ishwarapranidhana. It culminates in total surrender erasing one's ego.
Peace
Neel
Thanks, Neel. This I understand.
BG |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
One other question, Neel. Your comment above refers to Sutra 1:23 and following.
Ishwarapranidhana is also mentioned in Book 2 as one of the Niyamas (2:45).
I think that Desikachar was referring to 2:45 rather than 1:23 in his comment.
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| Dear Bay Guy:
I am extremely delighted by your observation of Two Ishwarapranidhana in the Patanjali.
The IP in the Chapter Two which is one of the Niyama, and it is the beginning practice. When completed, it culminates in the Second IP which is the one in the first chapter, and that Second IP only gives the asamprjnata samadhi. The first one is the beginning, the second one is the end.
The first one is in Second Chapter. The second one is in the First chapter !!!
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Yoga and Atheism
