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| I occasionally have "out-of-body experiences" (OBE's). This isn't anything new for me, and, from what I've read on this phenomenon, my own experiences with this pale compared to what others report. Normally I experience this just as I'm about to fall asleep... and I can choose to enhance the experience or to ignore it, let it go and just go to sleep. (And I realise that, to those who have no experience with this, or knowledge about it - or belief in it, for that matter - this may sound like a bunch of hooey. I would have thought so myself until I found out what was happening to me several years ago.) And while my experiences with this are inherently spiritual, I suppose - they also seem very temporal, compared with what I've experienced lately - namely that I have been having these experiences during savasana - though only if I can get into a thoroughly relaxed state. The OBE's that I have through savasana tend to be... different. More "spiritual", though I feel that is an inadequate word to describe what I go through. Sometimes I feel the presence of loved ones who have passed on; sometimes I just feel an overwhelming love that I feel is closeness with God. I can hardly believe that I'm posting this here, as I have shared this part of my life with very, very few people. But since it has been occurring during savasana, I can't help but wonder if there are others here who have had similar experiences, through yoga or meditation. I'm hesitant to speak of more details because this is very sacred to me... and frankly I'm a little concerned that I'll be written off as a lunatic - LOL. Anyway, that's my story - am I alone in this?
Namaste, Echo |
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| Well as the detachment (from the physical body) happens during deep relaxation, this is in essence astral projection of some form or other. A lot of new age groups, etc... pursue this a lot but from the standpoint of yoga there probably isn't anything particularly useful coming out of it (sorry to be blunt),
Regards. |
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| I would venture to say that the experiences are different because you're less conscious as you're falling asleep (obviously). Your savasana is a much more *aware* relaxation, so you'll be more cognizant of your travels and of your sensitivity to the more ethereal parts of our world.
There are many different types of meditation, and different traditions approach them different ways. Some of them concoct an imaginary world, some visualize the word OM placed in different parts of the body, some focus on a pleasant memory, some focus on the chakras, or the breath, or simply being in the body without distraction. Dr. Dean Ornish suggests that you turn your attention inside, and ask one of your organs (i.e. your heart) what its name is, how it feels, what it wants, etc. One of my great teachers did a meditation with us where we were to picture ourselves walking down a long road, either alone or with company. I was surprised to find myself accompanied by two dogs that had been in my life and since passed on! Was it my imagination, or was I being visited by their friendly spirits? I don't know, and don't care. It gave me moving and comforting experience that didn't require analysis.
No one way is right for every person, and neither is there one way that will work for someone his or her entire life. Circumstances change, needs change, views change. For as many different points of view exist, there are just as many people to stamp their feet and insist that their way is the only right way and everyone else is wrong. This philosophy seems to be pretty rampant even on these boards, though less so here than out in the rest of the world.
If these experiences are meaningful and rewarding to you, hang on and get all you can out of them! Your yoga practice can only enhance your awareness and clarity on the subject. |
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| belovedofthegod - 2005-05-09 1:15 PM Well as the detachment (from the physical body) happens during deep relaxation, this is in essence astral projection of some form or other. A lot of new age groups, etc... pursue this a lot but from the standpoint of yoga there probably isn't anything particularly useful coming out of it (sorry to be blunt), Regards. Hmmm... well, "useful" is a point-of-view, isn't it? It isn't useful in the sense that my hamstrings don't really benefit from it, (LOL!) but I feel that my soul does. I think that is part of niyama, don't you? BTW, "astral projection" is just another term for OBE - it describes basically the same phenomena. Also I'd like to add that I don't belong to any "new age group"... I'm a Catholic (I suppose that makes me a member of a fairl "old age group" - ROFL!  ) Namaste!
Echo  |
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| jeansyoga - Was it my imagination, or was I being visited by their friendly spirits? I don't know, and don't care. It gave me moving and comforting experience that didn't require analysis. YES! EXACTLY!!!! I don't know precisely what happens during these experiences, be it before sleep or during savasana - and I suspect that I will not find the answer to that question in this life - but it exhilarates my spirit, and that's what truly matters to me. I just wondered if others have had similar experiences, and it seems the answer to that is yes |
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| Grounded in total reality as I am, I have to believe that OBEs are simply the individual's mind creating the vision--like a dream. Empress Echo - 2005-05-09 1:49 PM I just wondered if others have had similar experiences, and it seems the answer to that is yes |
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| Dear Echo,
"Hmmm... well, "useful" is a point-of-view, isn't it? It isn't useful in the sense that my hamstrings don't really benefit from it, (LOL!) but I feel that my soul does. I think that is part of niyama, don't you?"
Sorry, when I mean yoga I don't mean anything loosely to do with hamstrings (no pun intended). Useful is indeed a point-of-view and I did say from "the standpoint of yoga".
The point is that in yoga, in general, the purpose is to recognize the Absolute. Yoga is a path of purification in so much as one tries to polish the mind so as to bring about recognition. Astral projection create more latent impressions in addition to the ones you already have from the physical realm; it also creates additional attachments. This makes the purpose of realizing the Absolute harder.
It may feel different, but from a yoga understanding of spirituality there is really very little difference between an astral experience and a physical one, there is nothing useful spiritually in astral realms. Of course yoga is only one way of looking at spiritually, you don't neccesarily have to subsribe to its ideals.
"BTW, "astral projection" is just another term for OBE - it describes basically the same phenomena."
Yes, but sometimes distinctions are made - I am not too familiar with them. I assume in your case it is astral projection,
Dear Bruce,
"Grounded in total reality as I am, I have to believe that OBEs are simply the individual's mind creating the vision--like a dream."
In "total reality", what is it that creates the vision?
Regards. |
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| "In "total reality", what is it that creates the vision?" I think it's brain synapses firing resulting in internal visions based on the inputs one has accumulated.
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| Dear Bruce,
"I think it's brain synapses firing resulting in internal visions based on the inputs one has accumulated."
Is a dream also not caused by brain synapses firing resulting in internal visions based on the inputs one has accumulated (inputs in the subconcious mind)?
Regards. |
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| In recognizing the Absolute, don't we do this first through fully becoming aware of the Self?
If that is true, then could not observing one's reaction (emotional, physical) to such an experience be a useful tool towards self-realization?
Aren't dreams sometimes full of messages from your subconscious, to help you better understand your world in a conscious state? |
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| Just wanted to pop into this thread to say I'm not ignoring your replies - it's just that I've now got so many thoughts flying around my pea-brain that I've got to gather them together before I can make a semi-intelligent reply! LOL  Until later...
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Bruce - 2005-05-09 3:38 PM
Grounded in total reality as I am, I have to believe that OBEs are simply the individual's mind creating the vision--like a dream. Empress Echo - 2005-05-09 1:49 PM I just wondered if others have had similar experiences, and it seems the answer to that is yes
Well, Brucebhai, after hanging out in Buddhist Temples and listening to Americans explain this this crap to Lama's...I'm with ya on this one!!! My suggestion Echo is that you better get yourself back into your body...especially if you aren't used to traveling in *certain realms*. The mind is very powerful and loves to play trickery and illusions....this statement does not apply to certain individuals that have been properly trained in these types of areas...and there are very few of us humans that are granted such capabilities. The ones that are don't talk about it as it is very sacred. |
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| Dear jeansyoga,
"If that is true, then could not observing one's reaction (emotional, physical) to such an experience be a useful tool towards self-realization?"
Yes of course, but not any more so than in the physical world - you have the whole day to observe your reaction if you really want to. Furthermore, in such experiences people are in great enjoyment usually and so they get overwhelmed in the experience. You don't have to create new events to observe during yoga practice, there are enough events as it is.
"Aren't dreams sometimes full of messages from your subconscious, to help you better understand your world in a conscious state?"
They are, but astral projection is not exactly a dream and furthermore you have the whole night to dream. Why use yoga practice to create something like a dream?
In Vajrayana Buddhism they practice dream yoga, which some may be interested in. For extremely serious practice one needs guidance from a real Lama but I have attached a pdf (which I found on a site that I don't remember) which is a mini-book by Namkhai Norbu on some dream yoga practice,
Regards. |
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| Dear jeansyoga,
"If that is true, then could not observing one's reaction (emotional, physical) to such an experience be a useful tool towards self-realization?"
Yes of course, but not any more so than in the physical world - you have the whole day to observe your reaction if you really want to. Furthermore, in such experiences people are in great enjoyment usually and so they get overwhelmed in the experience. You don't have to create new events to observe during yoga practice, there are enough events as it is.
"Aren't dreams sometimes full of messages from your subconscious, to help you better understand your world in a conscious state?"
They are, but astral projection is not exactly a dream and furthermore you have the whole night to dream. Why use yoga practice to create something like a dream?
(Unless you are specifically trained in the contemplations that go around a practice such as Buddhist or Daoist dream yoga, etc..)
Regards. |
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| OBE's are mental masturbation. Nothing to do with God. God is right here, right now. You don't need to leave your body to experience God.
Edited by Bodhisattva 2005-05-11 6:31 AM
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| Empress Echo - I can hardly believe that I'm posting this here, as I have shared this part of my life with very, very few people. But since it has been occurring during savasana, I can't help but wonder if there are others here who have had similar experiences, through yoga or meditation. I'm hesitant to speak of more details because this is very sacred to me... and frankly I'm a little concerned that I'll be written off as a lunatic - LOL. I'm beginning to regret mentioning this at all... here I am, actually quoting myself, which is a new one on me... Cyndi - My suggestion Echo is that you better get yourself back into your body...especially if you aren't used to traveling in *certain realms*. The mind is very powerful and loves to play trickery and illusions....this statement does not apply to certain individuals that have been properly trained in these types of areas...and there are very few of us humans that are granted such capabilities. The ones that are don't talk about it as it is very sacred. Cyndi, please see my own quote above. I chose to speak of this because I felt others might share my experiences, and they are so valuable to me that I think they are worth sharing. Why not speak of it? Probably because it is not taken seriously by a lot of people, and because I DO consider it sacred (again, see my post above) I don't care for my experiences to be dismissed as imagination, dabbling, or irreverance, which is why I was hesitant to mention it, and why I now regret it. You assume that I have little experience with this when that is not true at all, and frankly I'm a little offended by you referring to "listening to Americans explain this this crap to Lama's" - and then you say that people don't talk about it because it's sacred?! This is probably exactly why others don't talk about it much - because it's written off by those who don't know. And how can you say what realms I am used to or not? Don't deride me or my experiences because I am an American. Is this something reserved for only Buddhist non-Americans? Not by any means! Bodhisattva - OBE's are mental masturbation. Nothing to do with God. God is right here, right now. You don't need to leave your body to experience God. I disagree, and find this offensive. I agree that God is here and now - but I believe that there are times and circumstances when we are closer to Him. I never said that I ONLY experienced God at these times. Once again, I regret bringing this up at all, and am quite disappointed. Perhaps it was foolish of me to expect others to understand, as it is a rather rare phenomenon, but I did expect some further respect for my experiences. Considering that this is, in general, a more spiritual community than some others (I would not mention this on the quit smoking forum I belong to!) I suppose I expected a much different response. I do respect your opinions - especially you Bruce, for honestly expressing your perspective on this subject without deriding mine. I wish there were more respect such as this amongst all of us. |
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Expert Yogi
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| Well Bodhisattva, that is a very blunt way to put it. As someone else I think stated in this thread, I think OBEs and other such phenomena are considered to be distractions - pretty lights and music of the brain in a way - that fascinate us like children at a fair and pull us away from the disciplined path. Generally speaking, I think most traditions would warn against getting too caught up in them. OTOH, like dreams, they can be very useful and help guide the practitioner on their path if (like the mirrors we love to hate!) they are used as tools and guides, not as a goal in and of themselves.
Echo - it is great that you are able to look at this gift as something precious and not terrifying, as some would. If you can look at them objectively and both enjoy them for what they are and perhaps use some simple interpretations, it would be great. |
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Expert Yogi
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Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC |
Edited by Cyndi 2005-05-11 11:44 AM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Echo,
I'm sorry you took offense to my suggestion...however, I do not take this OBE thing very lightly. This is a serious problem in America (and I'm sure other places, but right now I am in America and we are Americans dealing with these issues) with people *dabbling* in areas that they have no business in. Having that said, if you are truly having an OBE experience, you really should be honest with yourself and seek a person who is qualified in either helping you figure out exactly what you are experiencing, or train you in how to take your body into these higher realms, as it can be very dangerous and can upset the balance of your life. I am speaking from experience and rather than get into personal details (that really should hashed over with a qualified experienced Guru), I am advising you to seek an authentic source for your questions, rather than from possible *unqualified* persons on an internet forum. If you want to continue to discuss the glamour of an OBE and if your seeking some type of confirmation and want to do it on an open forum, that's fine, but coming from a person that has actually experienced it, I would recommend that you be very cautious about who you talk to and who you seek out to help you gain an authentic *insightful* understanding of exactly what an OBE is.
Also, Dreams and OBE's are 2 totally different subjects.
P.S. For the record, if you think I'm hard on *Americans* and your taking offense to my speaking directly to the American mindset.....you should ask my husband how hard I am on Indians and Nepalis - Human ignorance and error is everywhere. Although, I must say, most Indians and Nepalis are so much more open to dealing with themselves than others..maybe because of the culture and how deep they like to explore. They don't seem to be as superficial and phony and are more accepting of their mistakes and stupid actions. Oh well, I thought you all would like to know that.
Edited by Cyndi 2005-05-11 12:06 PM
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| Sorry Empress Echo, I didn't mean to be offensive. It's basically about what you're seeking. If it's God then OBE's are the wrong direction. You're not a lunatic, OBE's have their own meaning and place. OBE's are not rare phenomenon, quite usual in the realm of creation You know I just wanted to make my point of view clear. I've been stepped into samadhi with God, believe it or not and one thing I'm pretty sure about is that this reality is beyond OBE's and stuff like that. Basically reality of oneness with God is totally beyond comprehension. OBE's can help in the realization of Self (which is different than God) and you can also experience oneness with God out of body, but the actual process of God-realization/complete enlightenment is where you're body, mind, spirit and soul become completely one. It's called receiving the heavenly body.
Is it what you experience in savasana that you actually leave your body or do you just feel separate from the body? You know these can be two different things.
Edited by Bodhisattva 2005-05-11 12:38 PM
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| Echo,
"Once again, I regret bringing this up at all, and am quite disappointed. Perhaps it was foolish of me to expect others to understand, as it is a rather rare phenomenon, but I did expect some further respect for my experiences. Considering that this is, in general, a more spiritual community than some others (I would not mention this on the quit smoking forum I belong to!) I suppose I expected a much different response. "
I feel I was as polite as possible and gave you several reasons why such a practice is a waste of time from a yoga perspective. Considering you associate yoga with hamstrings, I take it you do not mean the same thing as I do when you say yoga; the goal of yoga according to tradition is the realization or recognition of the Absolute. In so much as this goal is concerned, astral projection is useless, it doesn't matter how rare it is. The Buddha also has warned against wasting time in seeking astral other realms because they are just a more subtle form of craving and detract from the true goal.
Also, as I said before, yoga doesn't have a monopoly on spirituality so you don't have to subscribe to its position,
Regards. |
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| My ancestry includes a lot of Cornish and Scots lines which may explain why I and some of my cousins are 'fey'. Amongst other odd happenings, I've experienced this sense of journeying without my body but fought not to do it as I felt it was in some way dangerous without having an experienced guide (an instinct thing). As this has happened to me simply daydreaming, I can see how it may happen when trying to meditate. As I understand it, though, meditation is meant to be more about going inward to be at one with the One rather than an outward experience. Views?
Fee |
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| Ugh, I truly did not mean to make this into a big ado... I just wondered if others here had similar experiences. I'm not seeking advice here or asking questions - I simply stated that I have these experiences, and thought perhaps others of you did as well and would like to discuss them. I do not seek God through OBE's, but sometimes I sense Him, just as I sometimes sense Him in other situations, such as during prayer, or simply at random moments. There are times when I am closer to God, and times when I am further away. They don't necessarily have to do with astral travel. My purpose in exploring OBE's began because I was experiencing them without knowing what they were - and I was frightened. After I learned more, I came to look forward to them. I do not seek God in them - I simply seek to learn through exploration of another realm of the soul, and learning, in general, is important to me as a person. I do not take this lightly. My OBE's are different at different times. What I experience on the verge of sleep is not the same as what I feel during savasana. I do not leave my body during savasana, but generally "hover" - it's hard to describe. I feel that my soul is more "open" and maybe that's why I feel closer to God at those times, I don't know. I think that different cultures and religious traditions have varying views on OBE's, and I do try to respect those views, and learn from them. But again, I just brought it up here to perhaps compare experiences. Beloved, I don't "associate yoga with hamstrings"... LOL That was me being trite. I think we all agree that there are many aspects to "yoga". I was just trying to explain why my OBE experience was important to me in a certain way that had nothing to do with physicality - not that it had nothing to do with yoga. Does that make sense? I will mention though that I am relatively new to yoga, having only practised for a couple of years - and only "seriously" for half a year, (compared with my OBE experiences, which have gone on since I was a child) and while I began my yoga practice with exercise in mind, I have since learned - and continue to learn daily - that it is so much more than that. So please don't take my hamstrings comment seriously! I apologize for being flippant. Also, just for the record, I am not a Buddhist, though I am certainly interested in his teachings, just as I am interested in the teachings of Muhammad and Lao Tze, though I am a follower of Christ and am a Catholic - and I believe that God is not just "out there" but within all of us, so that when we look at the "self" we are looking at God as well. But that's just my opinion, and I respect yours. (BTW, in college my major was anthropology and minor was religion.) Okay, I'm going to shut up now (I do have this habit of running off at the mouth, and one of the things I'm trying to learn in recent days is silence, ironically!) I would just like to end my little diatribe with one of my favourite quotes: "As soon as a man is fully disposed to be alone with God, he is alone with God no matter where he may be; in the country, the monastery, the woods, or the city. The lightning flashes from East to West, illuminating the whole horizon and striking where it pleases and at the same instant the infinite liberty of God flashes in the depths of that man's soul, and he is illumined. At that moment he sees that though he seems to be in the middle of his journey, he has already arrived at the end. For the life of Grace on earth is the beginning of the life of Glory. Although he is a traveler in time, he has opened his eyes for a moment in eternity." - Thomas Merton Namaste, Echo |
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| Dear Echo,
I'm not complaining or telling you its bad. I'm just telling you that from a yoga perspective, it has nothing to do with spirituality. Since this is a yoga forum, I thought it appropriate to say that.
(The Buddhist reference was just if someone was interested in Dream Yoga)
Regards.
Edited by belovedofthegod 2005-05-12 2:52 AM
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| Hey, "no harm, no foul" as they say Hugs, Echo |
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This may sound crazy, but...
