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| I am entering this thread in Philosophy. Because it is related to Philosophy, which should be the basis of Practice, at least in Yoga.
In the past, many persons asked question, 'how long do you do yoga? what times? what styles?', etc. Also, many stated, '1 hour a day, 2 hours a day, 4 hours a day', etc. Also, many stated, 'all paths are good, all are good, all are equal, one starts with body and then later does mental practice, religion does not come in the way, religion comes in the way, no studio around them, only studio is that teaches asana and not breathing', etc. And, many other kinds of situations have been stated and explored.
Now, I am starting this thread with the statement: When one is doing Yoga Practice, they should do all the desired activites in Yoga as per their goal, and NOT just one side of it. Especially, if they are doing 4 hours a day, definitely they should not do Phsysical Exercises all those four hours. They shall miss a lot that way, and also get a wrong understanding of Yoga. Again, they are likely to injure their body if proper rest, proper diet, etc are not followed with excessive physical exercise. When they learn a Yoga activity of one kind, they should choose instruction of that kind, not go to Asana class to learn Chanting, etc.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Okay, it seems to me that we need to define what all the various bit of yoga are that we're using. This is particular important because different parts are emphasised/used/omitted by different teachers/tomes. Since you seem to like Patanjali (with good reason  ) I'm assuming you're thinking of the eight limbs.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Namaste` Neelbhai,
I'm stumped. Okay, so where are you trying to go with this thread since everything you mentioned is what we are discussing...it's just all over the board. Are you looking for a condensed version of what is already being discussed on the forum?
Anyway, my personal experience is that if everyone had a yoga guru - we would not be needing to have these discussions...which in itself is very disconcerning to me including all the different yoga practices that are being done in general. Another words, I think yoga has been diluted, exploited and basically abused - period. Question is; Who's gonna clean it up?? You or me?? I don't think so. I guess it's one of those things that has to run its course. It's unfortunate, because, Yoga is such a powerful system that is taken for granted and not practiced with the sincerity it so richly deserves.
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| The longer I practice, the more I believe in the self-study method. I love my hatha yoga classes, but I no longer expect them to teach me YOGA. I expect them to refine my technique in yogasana.
This has freed me, by changing my expectations. I don't expect my teacher to be my guru.
By self-study, I mean studying the ancient wisdom and studying myself. For at least a year now I've felt this continual pull towards tantra. I don't know why. But something about shiva-shakti keeps calling me. So I've been spending a lot of time reading and learning. |
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| I completely agree with you Neel.
Yoga is not only asana. Asana is just the vehicle. Pranayama, meditation, chanting,...all these things are also yoga. All these things are fundamental.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Mitch, all's I can say about Tantra is this...you better have a guru if your leaning towards that avenue. Self study is fine, to a small degree, but even with self-study there is a guru in the background...you just can't see them. Tantra is not about reading anything...it's experiential and sometimes literally terrifying if you don't know what your doing. I'm speaking from vast experience here. It's like igniting a fire so to speak...the guru has to be the one to ignite it and they won't do it unless the student is ready. So therefore, self-study tantra all you want...but, you won't actually be officially doing tantra unless you have the guru's grace and guidance. |
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| Cyndi,
Thanks for the thoughts. My interest in intellectual at this point. The gross versus the subtle. The personification of aspects of our consciousness. The recognition of energy. That sort of stuff.
I'm not talking about raising kundalini  or ketchari or anything dangerous like that. |
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| Dear GJ:
My statement has nothing to do with my liking the sage Patanjali. Actually, there are others whom I like more than Patanjali, due to my personal association with them. However, it has been well accepted and respected that the Sutras of Patanjali comprehend the science of Yoga and therefore they replaced the previous Standard Yoga Science sutras (no more on this, read other threads) out of Six Sciences in the Indian System of Philosophy.
While Patanjali's stated eight limbs will suffice completely, one can consider another angle of Karma+Jnana+Raja+Bhakti, or any other angle for that matter. My statement pertains to a) doing what one needs for their own goal and trust, and NOT considering that that is going to give them other things which come from other practices. b) if one is doing a serious Yoga Practice, and possibly longer duration, they should consider adding all possible elements in their practice. c) By elements, I do not mean all styles. I men the actual elements. For example: All styles of Physical Exercises taught in general market today can be clubbed into one single title of Physical Yoga Exericses which also include some mental focus. We can call them as Hatha for the classes in the market, I would just call them Yoga Exercise.
How did I know this: From my experiential knowledge, and watching the serious Yoga students who come to me.
ETC.
Neel Kulkarni
http://www.authenticyoga.org |
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| Hmm... still not sure what the topic is of this thread. |
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| i would say that i practice yoga all the time in different ways, if you wanted to get 'that' technical about it.
i fall down a lot practicing yoga too--and i mean that in many metaphorical ways.
for me, there's meditation, pranayama, scriptural study, teaching, contemplation, various rituals, prayer, chanting--a lot of things that go on throughout my days that are 'yoga practices.'
but if someone asks me, how long do you practice yoga--i generally assume thatthey mean physical asanas, that they want to know how much time i spend doing that--and it's anywhere from 10 minutes to 2-3 hours depending upon what the day seems to call for. so, i answer that question in that regards.
but, a good priest once told me--wake up in the morning and do the sign of the cross. then, make everything you do that day to be a prayer to God. and when you go to bed, do the sign of the cross again. And your prayer is done. when you do this, everything you do is for god--you are mindful of that.
And i still do this as well. |
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| That is wonderful and excellent Zoebird. That is the real Yoga Practice. When someone asks you, IMOH, you should say, 'I do Yoga Practice whole day or most of the day or all the time'.
Neel Kulkarni
www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
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| RE: self study. There are different aspects to this. Yes, there is study on one's own, studying by yourself. But a huge part of self-study is study OF the self, some of which can be undertaken on one's own but as Cyndi says, a great deal can be accomplished with a guru to dig into the areas we don't "see" on our own. The stuff we would perhaps rather not see, usually  |
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| Thanks for bringing this up Sis Tourist. In relation to my original posting on this thread, and some other related postings, I wish to make a further comment as follows:
- In general, there is NO doubt that Knowledge of the Self, called Self Realization, Final one (not partial knowledge of one's habits, mental attitude, etc.) comes ONLY when graced by a previously realized Guru (wrongly called as Master in some circles, but Master word will do.).
- The problem is to find the realized guru. And, there is no doubt that these are rare. But, additionally, most of the times, a student does not find them. It is the Guru who finds the student, when the student is ready. It is difficult to understand this because the occurrences are rare, whether real gurus being few, or real students who are ready for such gurus being few.
- As I said before, when a student seeks a teacher, they should go to that teacher for what they have to offer as an expertise. It is no good to go to an expert Asana teacher for Chanting class, and vice a versa. In that respect, it is wrong to go to an expert Asana teacher for Spiritual Realization.
- And, also it is wrong to assume that all paths, all styles, all methods are correct, and all of them lead to the goal of Spiritual Realization.
- On the other hand, it is wrong to go to a Saint to ask advice on nutrition in general. However, if the Saint is a realized one, he will definitely give correct advice appropriate to that person.
Neel Kulkarni
http://www.authenticyoga.org |
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| to get completely 'airy-fairy' and 'new-agey' i want to point out that when a guru in body isn't available, there are experiences that people have with saints and buddhas and realized people who are not in physical form--visions, dreams, what have yous--that function as guru blessings.
but, as they say 'when the student is ready, the teacher appears." |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Well Zoebird, that sound all fine and good...but most people wouldn't recognize a saint in a dream if they had one and most would not be able to tell from an illusion or the real thing. My experience at the Buddhist centers and temples is that 90% of the people were simply having an illusion because they wanted something they were not ready to have. |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Cyndi - 2005-12-01 1:48 PM
90% of the people were simply having an illusion because they wanted something they were not ready to have.
My guess is a higher number than that, Cyndi, but I am a cynic  OTOH, if the student is truly ready, I believe they will know their guru when the time is right, corporeal or otherwise. That would be the other lucky 5%  |
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| A better question would be, is your guru going to let you get away? |
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| Yes Dear Zoebird, the guru can appear in a vision or dream.
.....sidhdhadarshanam... Patanjali 3rd chapter
... swapnanidradnyanalambanam va... patanjali 1st chapter
When real guru comes, the student does not have to think whether it is real or not, the guru will do most of the job. Guru is the one (NOT the one who has more knowledge in that field) who knows the past lives of the student, current status of his/her spirituality, and what exactly needs to be done.
Now, I know some are going to ask me for an example. I can site many, but I prefer to site only one at this time, which should suffice: Swami Vivekananda and Shree Ramakrisha Paramahansa.
When I am talking about Yoga Class, I am not really talking about Gurus of that kind. I am mainly talking about Teachers, also called as Acharya, such as Yogacharya x, y, z.
But, of course, in the final stages of Yoga, a student needs Guru, NOT Acharya.
Neel Kulkarni
http://www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | kulkarnn - 2005-12-01 11:57 PM
Yes Dear Zoebird, the guru can appear in a vision or dream.
.....sidhdhadarshanam... Patanjali 3rd chapter
... swapnanidradnyanalambanam va... patanjali 1st chapter
When real guru comes, the student does not have to think whether it is real or not, the guru will do most of the job. Guru is the one (NOT the one who has more knowledge in that field) who knows the past lives of the student, current status of his/her spirituality, and what exactly needs to be done.
Now, I know some are going to ask me for an example. I can site many, but I prefer to site only one at this time, which should suffice: Swami Vivekananda and Shree Ramakrisha Paramahansa.
When I am talking about Yoga Class, I am not really talking about Gurus of that kind. I am mainly talking about Teachers, also called as Acharya, such as Yogacharya x, y, z.
But, of course, in the final stages of Yoga, a student needs Guru, NOT Acharya.
Neel Kulkarni
http://www.authenticyoga.org
Dear Brother Neel,
Your comments create a doubt for me. I have heard of both Gurus and
Acharyas, of course, but I have also heard the casual translation of both
words as "teacher". What is the difference between a Guru and an Archaya?
bg
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| Hi BayGuy,
The meanings are not set in stone, in many traditions they use them interchangeably. But I think (if I understand him correctly) the distinction Neel makes is an important.
An Acharya is anyone who gives teachings about practice or theory that is going to be applied. This has to be in a relatively formal setting, not just a casual discussion with a friend, or professor of some religion (since the professor is just telling you about the religion's belief and not as something you should internalize and live according to), or someone on an internet forum. A Yoga teacher in the western sense is an Acharya since a specific practice is being taught. Normally an Acharya in this sense can also be called a Siksha-Guru or a Vidya-Guru in some circles.
From an Acharya you get teachings, and if appropriate, you practice them. Or you get some knowledge, and then try to integrate that knowledge into your life. You may (and should) have gratitude towards the Acharya but he is not someone who is part of your practice in anyway. A Guru (or more precisely a Sadguru) on the other hand is someone towards whom you have great devotion and whom you think about, pray to, meditate on (Patanjali does recommend meditating on the mind of the desireless for instance), etc... The Guru is a source of blessings and grace, so its a much more metaphysical relationship than simply a teacher. You never forget about your Guru, He/She is an active component of your practice.
Often the Guru is also the Acharya who gives teachings, but this need not be the case all the time. In general you should have one Guru only but can have more than one Acharya.
Also keep in mind that this is one use of the terms, not something universal but whatever the tradition such a distinction is impossible. Of course Neel could mean something entirely different but this is my opinion on the matter,
Regards. |
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| Dear BG:
What beloved BelovedOfTheGod wrote is what I meant, almost closely, with the following addition (not really changes, but just additions):
Acharya is a formal teacher, but Acharya also has one extra qualification, that is the Acharya himself practices (acharati it achaaryah... one who practices what he preaches) what he preaches. At least, he has practiced it enough in the past. The one who only instructs is called Shikshak.
Guru is also used, as BOG wrote for a teacher. Generally, this is done when the teacher is extremely superior in his field of activity. Such as Music Guru, Microsoft Windows Guru, Dance Guru. And, in that case also student generally does not change the teacher. This partially happens in the Yoga Style concept of today, where one learns for a Superior Teacher, Acharya, Guru in the Yoga Style, and does not want to change it later. This is NOT Spiritual Guru.
In many Indian circles, (India is where the word Guru came from), the formal teacher is named as Guruji, rather than Guru. For example, most familiar to you, BKS Iyengar is called Guruji.
Now, spiritual Guru, I have already described before, and also done by BOG.
In my personal case, I shall use word Acharya or Guruji to mean formal teacher. But, Guru is only one. But, when I want to refer to an expert in the field I shall prefix Guru, and use Microsoft Guru, Sewing Guru, etc.
sadguru, as BOG wrote, also is used to mean Spiritual Guru. But, generally, Sadguru is used to mean a person who changes spiritual lives of many persons. This is the God Realized Saint, and generally an incarnation.
Neel Kulkarni
http://www.authenticyoga.org |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State |
Thank you both, Brother Neel and BelovedOfTheGods. This is very helpful.
bg |
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| Hello,
I missed this interesting comment:
"90% of the people were simply having an illusion because they wanted something they were not ready to have."
What exactly do you mean by "having an illusion"? I think its very important to explain how you think people were having trouble because this kind of trouble can be hard to identify for someone who is having it.
Neel,
Thank you especially for the comment that Acharya is one who practices - this is an extremely important demarcation,
Regards.
Edited by belovedofthegod 2005-12-05 1:27 PM
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | belovedofthegod - 2005-12-05 1:25 PM
I missed this interesting comment:
"90% of the people were simply having an illusion because they wanted something they were not ready to have."
What exactly do you mean by "having an illusion"? I think its very important to explain how you think people were having trouble because this kind of trouble can be hard to identify for someone who is having it.
When I was in the Tibetan Buddhist monastery, some of the students would come up with the wildest things. They would make up all kinds of stories about their dreams and their "so-called" abilities to tell ones future and clairvoyance, etc. I used to have to deal with these crazy women who actually thought they knew my future and things about my family and children, to the point where they would tell other people things about me that were not true. It was very frustrating because I worked at this monastery and spent years with these Rinpoche's and monks - who knew me very well. They would laugh at these women when they would do that. Well, eventually it got out of hand and at this point it became my worst obstacle and I had to make a choice. I stepped aside and no longer participate in the center in the same way. The reason these people acted this way was because they thought if they could be all powerful and knowing, that they would gain more and be more respected by the Rinpoche's and other monks. The other was because they were jealous of anyone who seemed to get the Rinpoche's and monks attention more than they. Of course, this is not what the practice is about, but their ILLUSIONS about it, was exactly the reason they were NOT ready to have what the Rinpoche's were teaching. They were trying to make it glamorous and complicated. I will say this much, I belonged to a group that was receiving some very advanced Buddhist teachings. After all the truth came out, the Rinpoche refused to teach anymore and said exactly what I said about not being able to receive these teachings. Our teacher was traditional and would not take this particular class any further. I was so happy about this because it was really important as a practitioner. Some of the people in that class hated me for supporting the Rinpoche, they were using the Dharma to do what I consider "evil", but mostly the advanced older students knew exactly why it was necessary to do not go any further as it was causing so much harm for the SINCERE ones.
Anyway, as for a person having trouble with this?? That's almost impossible for the person to know they are in trouble, unless they have their own realization about it. This is where a guru comes in handy and it's also handy if one is devoted and has complete trust and faith in one, otherwise, forget it. These people at this monastery did not have a clue, they "thought" they were doing the right thing. Also, for someone to be intelligent and book smart with the Dharma, then use that knowledge as if they have had the experiential experience against others or for some monetary gain such as fortune telling and whatever, is only going to harm their practice and they will not gain a thing but more suffering and frustration. I would rather sacrifice my own teaching - which I did, than see kind of nonsense continue any further.
Anyhow, later on I found this little quotation that I felt was extremely powerful and helped me through some trying moments with my practice. It's one of my very favorites. It goes like this:
"Practice has been described by a Tibetan teacher as the wearing out of an old pair of shoes. Wearing the soles thin. Wearing through ego and delusion. You may approach Zen thinking that you are going to become enlightened, become a great teacher and have fantastic powers that people will respect. Doing the practice, you come to realize that you don't give a dam whether people respect you or not. You really don't want to be a great teacher. What you want is to be helpful. To be of assistance - a benevolent entity." ~~Kobutsu, The Engaged Zen~~ |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Cyndi - I love the quote and especially the idea of wearing through the ego. It seems a gradual and maybe "organic" process. I can work with that |
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Yoga Practice
