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| Alright...im finally gonna ask as its been scratching at my brain for a few days...I could almost gaurantee you this has been asked in some form or another before....and it may seem a bit confusing cuz sometimes I have trouble giving a wordly sense to the crap swirling around in my head...
It has to do with the "Practice NonViolence" philosophy with yoga.....and may NOT BE for everyone ( especially the over empathetic - you have been warned ).
I know alot of you guys practice veganism (err..vegetarianism?), and here is what im wondering, ugh..okay now im having an issue getting this out of my head...so let me just say it then maybe try to elaborate...
If you look at the laws of nature, it is really quite violent, and harsh and of course carniverous, omnivorous, herbivorous..
Yoga means union right? so if you are becoming at one with the universe, and nature therein, dont you have to accept these laws of nature?
This includes vetetarianism ( lets say herbavore ) but it also includes carniverous and omnivorous....
And I know not everyone here would be this way, but alot of times I hear / read things like dont eat meat and its cruel to kill animals for food...but animals have been killing each other for food for eons.
I mean I get there is a difference between the people who find no meat diets more healthy and beneficial but arent neccesarilly against the eating of meat...and the people that are against the eating of meat and are vegan because of this.
I mean I dont get it sometimes, are we ( as yogis or even human beings ) supposed to just know better ( or were we always supposed to know better and somehow screwed up? ) , and because of this intellect we have over animals are supposed to have compassion for the lesser beings?
Well thats all fine and dandy and I agree.....But I think there is a fine line thats hard to see when it gets crossed as well. |
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| crap, i accidently must have posted this when trying to minimize the screen cuz a customer showed up....
Anyway, I obviously dont have my ideas anywhere near formed....so...If a mod would like to lock this or delete it or whatever thats cool...if someone thinks they can make some sense of it then thats cool too...
sorry.. |
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| Heh heh heh .... OK, you will get lots of impassioned replies from vegetarians, so I'm going to post as a *non* vegetarian (so, no ulterior motive  ) who does not agree with your premise. Then I'm going to leave town for a week and not read the boards 
I don't, at all, equate "becoming one with the universe" with "doing what comes naturally" ... which seems to be your premise.
First let's consider what nature has given the human species. (1) We are omnivores, which means we can successfully eat meat and/or nonmeat. This is different from being a carnivore ... it is extremely difficult and entirely unhealthy to get a hawk, for example, to eat nonmeat products. We have options, because of our nature as omnivores. (2) We are conscious and (more or less) intelligent beings, so we are capable of making choices and DO make choices every day of our lives. We do this because of our nature as thinking beings. (3) We are not living in a natural state. Very few of us have the option to eat what we would eat in a "natural", i.e. undeveloped state; most of us don't even try. (If you want to reproduce a truly "natural" diet, for example, don't eat beef. We domesticated that animal; it ain't even close to its "natural" state anymore.) We live in a world that has been heavily influenced by our nature as thinking and environment-manipulating beings.
So, we all choose aspects of our lifestyle. You can argue that making these choices takes us away from our nature, but I don't think so ... I think making choices *is* our nature. Some of us choose ahimsa, and some of those do so because they feel that this brings them closer to union with the universe. Some do it because they believe it is a choice that makes the universe a better place in various ways. I, personally, think these choices are valid although I am not a vegetarian. |
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| The operative term is NON violence. Much the same as the emphasis of NON mind in meditation. It's not that there isn't thinking, or violence, but rather that it's put in it's proper place. The Gita takes place on a battlefield, and Krishna spends the entire time encouraging Arjuna to kill people. Also you might spend some time thinking about where we would be if World War II had ended differently. A lot of people spent their time killing each other, and I think the world is a better place for it. Even the plants don't want to be cut down for food, but we still need to kill them to survive. |
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| Yeah...ummm thanks you 2. Laura I think you paraphrased exactly what I was trying to get at. Even though I couldnt quite get it put into words properly. Hence the request to delete the post until such a time as i could get my thoughts straightened out. |
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| since laura dealt with most of the things that i was going to get into, i can do something else. 
i think that when you look at the various writings related to ahimsa that comes out of the vedic culture, you will discover a very diverse discussion. We have to remember that this culture is a 'living culture' and that things come into fashion and go out of fashion. things are developed and things are allowed to fall away. things that worked then don't work now, things that work now, wouldn't have worked then.
in writing on the vegetarian message board that i frequent, i wrote an essay about the vedic culture's diverse perspectives on ahimsa practices in relation to animals and then also in relation to meat consumption. The reasons for avoiding meat are diverse, and most of them are not connected to ahimsa practices. Most of them are related to health practices or purity practices rather than to nonviolence practices. Ghandi is the one who really took on vegetarianism as an ahimsic practice, which is why it's so attached to modern, western vegetarianism today. and yet, these same vegetarians do not necessarily agree with Ghandi's other practices of ahimsa as well. So, they get picky.
It might help you out a lot ot look into what ahimsa is and how it has developed over time. There are a number of great reference materials out there, and i like a lot of Georg Feuerstien's work. he writes about yoga and yoga philosophy and history in general--so you'll find a lot of easy-to-understand research on the topic. He's a great author. i just finished his book on tantra. It will give you the historical and philosophical perspectives that exist and how they came to be. this often helps me discover new and interesting ways to practice ahimsa in different ways.
and, i'm vegetarian. i was vegan for a while, but it wasn't healthy for me in the long term. |
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| Oddly enough it doesn't look like there's anything on amazon.com by him. |
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| i usually spell his name wrong.
here are some link-y-dinks:
the tantra book i read: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157062304X/ref=pd_bbs_null_4/103-9692682-7786253?v=glance&n=283155
and that should link you to others. he is also a memeber of YREC--runs it i think. http://www.YREC.org. |
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| You got it right, I thought there was an 'e' at the end of his name. |
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| Dear Sideshow:
In Yoga, the Union, you are not supposed to become One with the Nature. You are becoming one with that is beyond the Nature, the formless. Becoming Nonviolent, and other practices are only aid to reach to that state.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 517
Location: New Jersey | Sideshow,
I am a vegetarian, but not because i am opposed to comsuming other animals for food, because you are right, other animals do kill each other for food. I don't eat meat because I am opposed to the way we treat animals before we kill them and eat them. No other species domesticates it's prey and forces it to live in unnatural environments. There is always the 'free-range' option. I do eat dairy, but stick to organic stuff. (hopefully what it says on the packages is correct, and the animals are being allowed to live a somewhat free existence.) Just my opinion on the debate!
Samantha |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
    
| We need a nice. clear definition of vegetarian and vegan for Sideshow as they are VERY different from each other. And the quickie explanation of this (although Neel's was excellent!) is that yes, we are supposed to know better. For the record, there is a real turkey, not "tofurkey" in my fridge right now - along with tons of eggs, butter, cream and other overindulgent ingredients for my DD chef-to-be to play with in the next couple of days We need a yummy-yummy icon at this time of year! |
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| kulkarnn - 2005-12-22 6:44 PM
In Yoga, the Union, you are not supposed to become One with the Nature.
Maybe he's getting confused with Daoism, which does attempt to become on with nature, though I think they're talking about similar things to the yogis. ie becoming liberated by finding your true nature. |
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Highly debatable material!
