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 Interesting Zen StoryModerators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| Yoga -> Philosophy and Religion | Message format |
Cyndi |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 5098   Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | |||
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| Cyndi |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 5098 Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Actually, I didn't think you were implying that I didn't have extensive knowledge of the bible. I only stated that other Christians twist words around because that is how they are trained in debating...its more like competing than debating. As for the relationship with my parents...I'm totally cool with all of it. I came to terms with my relationships a long time ago..including my parents. My parents were very cool too!! I have no complaints about them. I'm just glad I don't have to live under my Father's rule....because he is a Dog and I'm a Dragon,  I'm very close to my Father and we have a deep mutual respect for each other. We do NOT discuss religion or politics however, and that is okay. I send my Dad HH Dalai Lama quotes all the time and he can't say anything about Satyam's culture because he really does not know or understand it. Which is also okay. Okay, I'm off to the temple today. Ya'll have a great New Years Day. I'll think about you when I'm standing in front of Balaji and Shiva. | ||
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have a great time at temple. i'm going to a number of specialized cultural events that have been americanized as well this afternoon and evening.  | |||
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| GreenJello |
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| GreenJello |
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zoebird - 2006-01-02 1:51 PM One of the things that I like about Alan Watt's interpretation of Zen is that it's not about the people or the places, or the rituals, or the Church, or any of the other stuff that we humans due to muck things up. It's about coming into direct contact with the Real, and dealing with it. It's the essence of religion BEFORE the coming of humanity and duty. It's about following the Tao before the establishment of cannonical law. It's about the ineffiable, a finger pointing to the moon. i also like this concept. but, it's not just true of Zen, but true of every religion. Each religion is a finger pointing to the moon. The language that is used is a finger; the rituals and disciplines that are practiced are the finger. These practices are what bring you into direct contact with the Real. Well.... but the problem is that this isn't the emphasis. You have people who have been told that the finger is the whole business. The esoteric element has been lost to a great deal of Christain worshippers, and all they have is the exoteric crowd control elements. From what Cyndi's said, this is also true of some Zen colleges. They've lost the zen. Church is going to a place to praise the finger, Zen is about following the finger to finally find the moon for yourself. This is where there is disagreement. Zen is a discipline, a practice. Going to Church is a discipline, a practice. Both of these are fingers pointing to the moon. If you focus only on the finger--the church, it's problems, placing the value of the traditions ahead of the value of the moon, etc--then it's misguided. But, if you're using the church and it's traditions to engage the Real, then you're succeeding in practice. That's the point of most religions, from what i can tell. Ah but this is where it gets interesting at least IMHO. The problem is that the disciplines are all artificial. They're all inherently failed attempts to frame reality, often with larger and larger frames, but frames none the less. By engaging in the ritual or practice you miss the point, at least to some extent. People begin to associate the ritual with the Real. They mistake Zen for zen, the sound of one hand clapping with one hand clapping. It's like if you had a dog that you fed only when you rang a bell. After a while the bell and meal time become entrenched in the dogs mind, so that when you ring the bell he expects to be fed. So I don't think that you can really use the disciplines to get there. Most of the times when I've been most in tune with what's really going on have been time when I really wasn't doing much. I wasn't engaged in any sort of discipline. At those times the Real comes around from behind, taps me on the shoulder, and grabs me by the collar, throwing me full tilt into reality. The best that the various disciplines can do is remove the obstructions to this happening. You spend your time cleaning the island of tonal. You spend your time removing all the distractions from the land of the Known to prepare for the coming of the Unknown. So how can you explain this to anybody who hasn't been there before, let alone win an arguement? Edited by GreenJello 2006-01-02 2:19 PM | |||
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442    | |||
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Well.... but the problem is that this isn't the emphasis. it isn't? christianity doesn't emphasize that the purpose of all of these disciplines and practices is to engage with the Divine, the Real? I'm pretty sure that's the whole deal of christianity, and that of Judaism. The central premise of both is that we have somehow become alienated from God (true self, the Real, whatever you want to call it) and that we must find ways to overcome this and become one with God. This central theme is centered around the concept of atonement (at-one-ment!). The belief being that the origin of this alienation was sin, and that sin will ultimately lead us to death--not physical death, but the even more horrifying spiritual death. have you seen the walking spiritual dead? have you not seen it in the eyes of people around you? not the desparate look of need--i've seen that too. for these people, the spirit is still alive and kicking, waiting for it's liberation, that can only be done through conscious choice on the part of the individual to listen to and nurture that spirit. But there are those who are already dead, long dead in the eyes, just moving through their bodies. Haven't you seen them? I'm not saying that christianity is the answer or anything. It's an answer. there are others. Many people find it through yoga, or buddhism, or neopaganism, or just through whatever--art or music. could be anything, as long as it feeds the spirit, the soul, and sustains that vibrantly. This is what connects the person to the Real--the REal within, the Real without (same Real). But, the central theme of christianity is union with God--not church or this or that thing. Simply, overcoming 'sin' (things that are not 'of God' and 'cause suffering') to live/experience the Real. The esoteric element has been lost to a great deal of Christain worshippers, and all they have is the exoteric crowd control elements. absolutely. so does every aspect of society and every religion. but that doesn't mean that christianity doesn't emphasize that 'essence.' The problem is that the disciplines are all artificial. They're all inherently failed attempts to frame reality, often with larger and larger frames, but frames none the less. By engaging in the ritual or practice you miss the point, at least to some extent. People begin to associate the ritual with the Real. disciplines are not to be mistaken with their outcomes. i agree that people get confused and place more value on the discipline than on the outcome. but for most people, a discipline is necessary to remind them or bring them back to the original experience/intent behind the discipline in the first place. Disciplines are useful, helpful even. For me, it's a valuing system something like this. There's Experience (being Real), there's the disciplines (help you engage the Real such that you can be Real), and then there's the language that describes both the discipline and the Real (cosmology/mythology of the Real). What tourist mentioned about "hints" and such is what this final layer is. The problem is that many people invert this. They get stuck in the language and the disciplines (these are the fingers), and they also loose sight of the purpose and experience. but i can't fault anyone for being human, nor can i fault a religion for having people in it who do get this messed up. most people of most religions actually get the essence, and recognize that both the language (cosmology) and the displines (practices) are to help them understand, engage, and ultimately be this essence, the Real. It's like if you had a dog that you fed only when you rang a bell. After a while the bell and meal time become entrenched in the dogs mind, so that when you ring the bell he expects to be fed. it's amazing how many applications Pavlov's experiment has, isn't it. In fact, even without the expectation of the meal, the dog will still salivate. That's the real interesting part of the experiment, i think. First, you have him feeding the dog. Then, feeding the dog and ringing a bell. then ringing the bell and not feeding the dog. And then simply ringing the bell at random, the dog still salivates, even if there's no 'outward' or 'expressive' expectation for food. I'm sure that anyone who has been around a dog, or any animal for that matter, will recognize the body language of "food" but the extention of pavlov's theory is that even when the dog no longer hopes for food in association with a bell, his biology revves up anyway. I wonder then, if i can flip your example on it's head and say that the disciplines of doing the same things at the same time--the discipline of eating for example--and then something becomes 'added' to this discipline (a bell rings--say this is the experience of the Real that comes during discipline)--and then that bell rings when there isn't food around. What if the spirit is the natural thing here, the salivation? That is, whenever the real is around, even if there's no physical obvious movement of person, that there is a dynamic expression of Real within (spirit) and Real without (the bell experience in this example). The spirit salivates, even if the body and mind don't seem to have certain expectations. Ooh, that was a good exercise, thanks. But, i can also see what tourist sees, which is that the dog desires to eat whenever there is a bell, and if he eats every time a bell rings, instead of eating when hungry or as necessary, that dog over eats because it's out of touch with it's innate understanding of it's physical needs. THis is often why yoga changes people so dynamicly. For so long, they've ignored the natural inclinations of their bodies--forcing meal times, increasing portions, eating unhealthy foods, not moving, etc--and when they come to discover them, their bodies and minds change so dramaticly because they're coming more in line with who they are and what they really need. Honestly, these sorts of things can go both ways, can't they? Like, a dieter who takes on a plan to loose weight becomes in touch with their body through the discipline? or, the person who simply always eats only at meal times, whether hungry or not, and in denying themselves and their innate body-wisdom, they come into injury and unhappiness. So, i think that religion and religious disciplines can be the same way. For one person, a path to liberation because they've learned to 'tap into themselves' and for another, a way of denying the self that ultimately leads to spiritual unhappiness (and perhaps spirit-death). So how can you explain this to anybody who hasn't been there before, let alone win an arguement? it depends upon what we're arguing about really, doesn't it? I can argue about different theological interpretations and applications of certain scriptures from any number of disciplines (yoga, buddhist, christian, jewish, and a few muslim). This is a very different argument than trying to describe the real to someone. And in that, i don't think there can be a lot of argument, unless the person only accepts one name, which then becomes rather heated between the two--the need to convince (or win as cyndi pointed out). But in this case, it does beg the question--did this person engage or understand the essence, the Real? I cannot describe to you the feeling that i get when i do the rosary, a daily discipline for me. it is probably something like this: At those times the Real comes around from behind, taps me on the shoulder, and grabs me by the collar, throwing me full tilt into reality. but there are other ways too--a rumi poem, a sunset, a sense of knowing in my bones, or whatever else. this discipline, among others, taps me into myself, and as tourist wrote, it reminds me of where i am, where i want/need to be, and whether or not i'm living as i truly want to live (which is in union with the Real). I am reminded through these disciplines, and in that, i can live fully in the Real between disciplines. And when i'm enlightened, i won't need anything at all. But as it is said in Zen: "Before Enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After Enlightenment, chop wood, carry water." | |||
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| GreenJello |
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| tourist |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 8442 | OK, I admit I am not reading every single word of your longer posts, folks. But I still want to budge in with a couple more words most Christianity appears to be that God and nature/matter are inherently different, and in some cases that being in matter is the whole problem to begin with. I think this is true and I think it is one of the main differences between western and eastern relgions. I've been down so far that I was pretty sure my spirit was dead, but it wasn't. Spirit is very resilient - anybody who watches Oprah knows that  But seriously, I think we all know or know of someone who can illustrate that. Yes, but at some point they become a bit like having training wheels on your bike. They're not necessarily, and they get in the way. I think, in eastern tradition and used to be in some western societies, that when the time to take off the training wheels came, the sadhaka went to the Himalayas or got themselves to a nunnery/monastery. What are the yogic stages of life? I can't remember the names at present - but when family is grown and one has more time, it is recommended that your time be spent on spiritual matters. In North America, we somehow believe it is better to take up golf and go on cruises. My MIL is going to Reno for the umpteenth time this week and will probably pack up to one of the cheap all-inclusives in Mexico soon. On the one hand it is great, on the other hand, she is pretty bored the rest of the time - except for golf and online poker  Sure, you can argue the letter of the law. This is wonderful if you want to argue Of course she wants to argue - remember that lawyer gene is still inside our zoebird yogini  | ||
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| GreenJello |
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tourist - 2006-01-02 8:24 PM most Christianity appears to be that God and nature/matter are inherently different, and in some cases that being in matter is the whole problem to begin with. I think this is true and I think it is one of the main differences between western and eastern relgions. One of the Vedic philosophies follows this approach, the other is that the two are the same. I'm not really clear on this, or what the exact name of each one is, I'm sure Neel could explain it very well. I also keep forgetting which school yoga falls into, I guess I'm not that interested because it strikes me as being a lot of dry theory. I can't remember the names at present - but when family is grown and one has more time, it is recommended that your time be spent on spiritual matters. In North America, we somehow believe it is better to take up golf and go on cruises. Never really understood all that. I'm not a cruise or golf sort of guy, very boring. Sure, you can argue the letter of the law. This is wonderful if you want to argue Of course she wants to argue - remember that lawyer gene is still inside our zoebird yogini She's very good at it too, the Law is missing out on a fine attorney. | |||
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i think i want to beat my head against the wall. oh wait, i have an emoticon for that.  both christian and jewish orthodoxy is entirely about union with God. Islam is more to whit regarding the separation of man and God--such that there can be no union. but, Sufiism refutes this idea through the ecstatic experience. and, i could give you a long list of bible verses, treatises and texts--from throughout the ages that are both christian and jewish, as well as sufi--to this point, but i don't think that you'll actually read them, so there's no point. And, they're often so contextually entertwined, that it could take years to figure out how they reflect these same ideas that we find in eastern traditions. eastern and western esoterica are the same. their disciplines are largely the same--prayer, meditation, fasting, scriptural study (which includes debate/arguments), corporate worship or practice, and many others. their cosmologies are different based on the cultural and environmental experiences of the populations from which they arise. this is not only my experience, but the central teachings of the churches themselves, which they clearly espouse through their language and disciplines. Edited by zoebird 2006-01-03 4:27 PM | |||
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| GreenJello |
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zoebird - 2006-01-03 4:24 PM i think i want to beat my head against the wall. oh wait, i have an emoticon for that. Yeah, doesn't look like we're getting anywhere does it? That's okay, I still like ya! | |||
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| GreenJello |
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| You are correct that a lot of this is also my experience. I've had a much better experience with Zen than with Christianity, and a lot of that comes down to my experience with my parents. I'm also in a very bad position, because I really can't conceed too much ground here. Why? Well, I think that goes back to the battle of wills between my parents and I, and what's really going on with that. I think I'm going to need to think about that some more. I think the other problem is that word "union" implies the joining of two into one. With mainstream Christianity the message appears to be a relationship (ie two parties) between the worshipper and God. Then there's the fact that most of my understanding of the eastern religions involves their mystical traditions, while most of my understanding of Christianity has to do with the lay or exoteric approach. I have been enjoying reading St. John of the Cross's "Long, Dark Night of the Soul", but he's also been accused of being very Buddhist, and not very Christian. Finally I can be a very difficult and stubborn SOB, just ask my folks! | |||
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| Cyndi |
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Expert Yogi Posts: 5098 Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | zoebird - 2006-01-01 1:04 PM have a great time at temple. i'm going to a number of specialized cultural events that have been americanized as well this afternoon and evening. Well, my trip to the temple was not Americanized...at all. In fact, out of all those hundreds and hundreds of people, I was the only American. This is a South Indian Temple. Sunday was Navodaya. This is one of my favorite days at the temple...I like to start my new year fresh and BLESSED. Whew!! Too much to read here. I'm sure this is a great interesting topic and I could find lots of things to say about what ya'll are talking about...but, I'm still freshly blessed. I'm going to stay out of this topic, for now anyway, Besides, I'm so tired of talking about Christianity and other religions...in fact, I'm so sick of religion period. Guess that is why I like the Hindu culture so much, Edited by Cyndi 2006-01-03 8:30 PM | ||
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