YogiSource.com my account | view cart | customer service
 Search:    
 Site Areas     store | articles | forums | studios | vacations
yoga | massage | fitness | wellness | meditation
Welcome to the new Yoga.com Forums home!
For future visits, link to "http://www.YogiSource.com/forums".
Make a new bookmark.
Tell your friends so they can find us and you!

Coming soon ... exciting new changes for our website, now at YogiSource.com.

Search | Statistics | User Listing View All Forums
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )



Suffering
Moderators: Moderators

Jump to page : 1 2 3
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]		View previous thread :: View next thread
   Yoga -> Philosophy and ReligionMessage format
 
*Fifi*
Posted 2006-02-04 10:23 AM (#42884)
Subject: Suffering


How much suffering is "good" for a person? Should a person "give 'til it hurts"? Where do you draw the line between selfishness and healthy boundaries?

Another question: What do you make of a "successful" person who's *****y all the time? I don't have any one person in mind, just a composite of a bunch of business people (lot of businesswomen) who sacrifice, push themselves, work hard but are super cranky (due to the stimulants they consume).

How does one survive in a cranky, overstimulated culture? I would love to live somewhere beautiful and serene but those places are usually very expensive (Santa Fe, San Diego, Hawaii, Colorado) and not an option at this point.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
*Fifi*
Posted 2006-02-04 10:24 AM (#42885 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


hey! since when is c-r-a-n-k-y a bad word?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Cyndi
Posted 2006-02-04 10:45 AM (#42888 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering



Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
5000252525
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC		Hi Fifi,

I would like to say that it would be better if no one suffered at all...but then again, yea your're right, sometimes suffering is necessary for human beings to evolve.

Having that said, I think to say how much suffering is necessary and how much should one suffer is a gauge we should have in ourselves to watch and observe very carefully. It's a very complex thing, but I do not believe we are suppose to enable people to continue with destructive behavior, we are suppose to guide others to making better choices for themselves. Sometimes that is not possible, and you may have to walk away. On the other hand, we are not suppose to sit and watch a person die either. You have to be able to gauge it and know in your mind that what you are doing is the right thing for YOU, and if necessary, you may have to be a gauge for them as well, but this is where you have to tread very carefully...I mean very carefully.

Like for instance, right now I'm in a situation with my son. He is my child and almost 21. He is very Moody, cranky and just plain arrogant about everything. He's going through some really hard times and he wants to take his anger and frustration out on me and his sister. Lately, I've just said to him, if you're gonna act that way, don't come home, stay away from me. It's all I can do, because I am not going to be held prisoner in my own home while he vents and goes off the deep end trying to resolve his issues. What I do is I send him nice packages with his favorite goodies, i.e. his Jasmine Tea and Honey, and things to eat, to make him feel loved and wanted, but at that same time, I don't let him cross over my boundaries....and I do establish my boundaries. That is all you can do.

Now, if it is someone outside of your home and say a patient or whatever...well, our job as healer's are much more...see my posting on "Anger", it is somewhat related to this. As long as the patient is not crossing a boundary, I would say continue to help that person as much as possible and what your capabilities are, but at the same time, establish your boundary and not let them get close to you in a way they can harm you. If you have reached a point where you are not of benefit to that patient, then I would simply acknowledge it and say "I've done all I can for you, but here is someone that may be able to help you." If you don't have a person in mind, then I would direct that person to Bikram Choudhury, Does that make sense?

Oh yea, "How to survive living in an overstimulated culture?" For one thing, I just don't participate in it that type of environment, even though I may be surrounded by it and when I want to engage in it, I know how much I can handle without going over the edge. I pick and choose, not the other way around. I have gained enough insight into my life, surroundings and certain people and personalities that if I don't want to deal with them, I stay at home, close my door, shut them out, meditate, go to my favorite places alone and ignore them. I can do that. Besides, I do not owe anyone anything. It is my choice as to whether I want to respond to anything. Now, that doesn't mean that I've seperated myself from these types of people, it doesn't mean that I'm judging them, and it doesn't mean that I'm right (a goody two shoes snob) and they are wrong (low class scum of the earth's) , it just means that I'm taking care of myself and I'm happy and content with me. As for the other's, what can you do?? Probably nothing..but one day they may say to you, "How come you always seem happy, and how come you always look good and refreshed and look so young and vibrant?" Then you have an opportunity to say, "Well, I don't over extend myself, I meditate, I do yoga, I care for myself by eating properly, yadda yadda" and then you can plant the seed in their minds. But to deal with them, you just simply don't.

For what it's worth, sometimes living in the most serene places will push your buttons too, especially if it's your lesson to learn these things. I live in a very beautiful area, but there are some really scary rednecks around where I live. Actually, they are more hilarious and funny if you watch them close enough. Most people cannot handle that, but I love the area and I weighed out my choices and what I decided to tolerate and what I could manage.

Edited by Cyndi 2006-02-04 11:06 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Kabu
Posted 2006-02-04 2:44 PM (#42904 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


NOW the censor thingy kicks in?!

RE successful, driven, crabass people:

I know exactly what drives this: insecurity. They push and push, but they never feel any better, so they push some more. They might feel a little better at this point, but it doesn't last. On with the pushing...

I think it comes down to how you measure success. Some people are compelled to hold themselves up to the standard of what others are doing. And those "others" are driven to stay one step ahead of the pack. This creates a never ending cycle where it's all about ambition and gain. I don't think these people feel they can stop long enough to enjoy the fruits of their labor.
If you look real close, there's a level of sadness there. If they could break the cycle, I think they would.

On the other hand, some people's idea of success doesn't depend so much on what others are achieving. They have their own goals that are driven by something else. What that is, I don't know if we can say across the board, but I doubt it's peer or culture driven.

My husband is one type (though he's coming around), I'm the other. My hope is to someday escape to the country where maybe life moves a little slower. Until then, I try not to get sucked into it.

Edited by Kabu 2006-02-04 2:48 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Kabu
Posted 2006-02-04 6:00 PM (#42906 - in reply to #42904)
Subject: RE: Suffering


Kabu -
RE successful, driven, crabass people:

I know exactly what drives this: insecurity.


Woo! That sounded a little pushy ~ sorry about that. I should have started with, "Here's my theory..."
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jambo
Posted 2006-02-04 8:38 PM (#42909 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


I find the word “suffering” silly in the context of yoga. I think the word “suffering” is more relevant to describe the people who were subjected to the atrocities of death camps, victims of war or real world famine and disease. Perhaps discomfort is a more appropriate word for a Yoga class.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
*Fifi*
Posted 2006-02-05 1:10 PM (#42923 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


Thanks for everyone's input. After reading my initial post I realized I mixed 2 different topics. First, suffering. I didn't mean it in context of yoga per se, although this is yoga.com and I should probably just stick to yoga issues. But, Jambo brings up my point (sort of). For example, there are lots of people out there that don't think you're suffering if you haven't been in a concentration camp. Is the suffering at a death camp equal to that of someone suffering with a migraine?

There is no reason I am asking this except that I think of it all the time. I think of the hardships people have to go through in life. Fortunately, I've been blessed with good health and a relatively pain-free life. But, I wonder if a little "suffering" is good for a person? I think it is. I think at the very least it makes us more compassionate.

However, there seems to be a growing mindset (not of the yoga.com community) that any discomfort is completely untolerable. This is especially true in the USA and I'm afraid it's doing us in. I shouldn't make global statements but I'm going to anyway: it seems as if no one can live comfortably past 85 degrees without having to turn on the air conditioner. There must be coca-cola at lunch and dinner. It doesn't matter how broke one is, that person is going to get their nails done, buy new shoes and a Blackberry - just to look cool and fashionable. It's as if it's some horrible disease to be perceived as "uncool".

I am very fussy about my sleep. I know I must have at least 8 hours. Some of my "people" have said I am too selfcentered and lazy for thinking I can't function on 7 or 6 hours. This bugs me b/c I feel sick if I don't get enough sleep. Or, really am I being a little too much of the fussy American? Maybe my "Just Do It" mentality applies to selective activities.

The bytchy businesswomen thing is a little different. I've come to the conclusion that the money-people rule the world, not politians (although most of them are money-people, too). Fuel prices, for example, were driven up dramatically after Hurricane Katrina due to the money-people on Wall Street buying futures (stock trading term) in oil. They were buying oil shares on the speculation of scarcity in the future. So, we were all stuck paying inflated prices. (The stock market should be closed after a massive disaster).

Money-people have no compassion for the rest of the world. That lack of compassion I find especially vile and vulgar in women. Yes, I know, double standard.

I should stop writing now b/c this post is absolutely too long!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jambo
Posted 2006-02-05 4:20 PM (#42929 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


>There are stories of people being locked up in these camps and being happy as clams. The difference is that most people expect you to suffer in a death camp, and to grin and bear it with a migraine. Therefore it's more socially acceptable to ***** about the camp than the head ache.

Surely you jest, for sure? Please point me to one of those stories where “people being locked up in these camps and being happy as clams”. That would be a revelation or “nuts” at best.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
tourist
Posted 2006-02-06 12:25 AM (#42949 - in reply to #42929)
Subject: RE: Suffering



Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
50002000100010010010010025
The "suffering" referred to in a yogic sense has been described as the suffering the Self feels due to not being at One with the Divine. It is not the suffering of physical pain or perceived discomforts of lacking earthly desires.

"Give until it hurts" in my understanding, is referring to the idea that it is easy to give from a place of plenty. If you have a million dollars, giving a dime to a cause is meaningless. If you have just enough to feed and house yourself plus a dime and you give that dime, it is more significant and certainly more "painful."

Don't let anyone mess with your sleep! Anyone who has ever spent any time with insomnia will tell you it is worth every minute of parties left, movies unwatched and books unread. You need to sleep well.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
kulkarnn
Posted 2006-02-06 9:02 AM (#42957 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


Orignal Post and commens with ===>: Posts: 427 How much suffering is "good" for a person? Should a person "give 'til it hurts"? Where do you draw the line between selfishness and healthy boundaries?
===> With no single exception including saints are Selfish. The problem is between correct selfishness and wrong selfishness. Correct selfishness is a)supposted to NOT consider only one's own happiness, but as far as possible (ONLY), cosider happiness of all including oneself b) supposed to lead to complete joy which comes from spiritual understanding, c) does not destroy other's happiness, and definitely one's own happiness.



Another question: What do you make of a "successful" person who's *****y all the time? I don't have any one person in mind, just a composite of a bunch of business people (lot of businesswomen) who sacrifice, push themselves, work hard but are super cranky (due to the stimulants they consume).
===> Best is a) NOT to make any thing of such a person, if it does not affect one's own happiness b) If that is not possible, avoid that person. c) If a, b both are impossible, destroy that person.


How does one survive in a cranky, overstimulated culture? I would love to live somewhere beautiful and serene but those places are usually very expensive (Santa Fe, San Diego, Hawaii, Colorado) and not an option at this point.
===> It is not the place which is expensive, it is the person who spends more. Thus, one can easily choose a serene place which is NOT expensive. This list is not exhaustive. There are many other serene places which are not expensive. Also, even in a really expensive place, there is a way to live in a much simpler way (share house, share phone, barter work, etc.) and manage.


===> All above are not ideas, but if you come to VA, I shall show you some people, who are doing this. Now, VA is very scenic, and very expensive, as you know. And, if you see newspaper, you shall also find cranky people here.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Bay Guy
Posted 2006-02-06 10:32 PM (#43015 - in reply to #42957)
Subject: RE: Suffering



Expert Yogi

Posts: 2479
2000100100100100252525
Location: A Blue State
kulkarnn - 2006-02-06 9:02 AM



Another question: What do you make of a "successful" person who's *****y all the time? I don't have any one person in mind, just a composite of a bunch of business people (lot of businesswomen) who sacrifice, push themselves, work hard but are super cranky (due to the stimulants they consume).
===> Best is a) NOT to make any thing of such a person, if it does not affect one's own happiness b) If that is not possible, avoid that person. c) If a, b both are impossible, destroy that person.

.


I am puzzled about destroying people. What do you mean? It seems very himsa.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
kulkarnn
Posted 2006-02-07 1:30 AM (#43027 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


Dear BG:
What I mean is: priority one: Do not give meaningful to such a person when you know that they are meaningless. priority two: Try best to avoid that person, meaning try to NOT associate with that person yourself, in all possible ways. priority three: Destroy the association in all possible ways, but if the person is purposefully not letting you do that, and is trying to destroy your practices, then you must destroy that person's association with you in whatever way it is deemed. For example, if the person is spoiling your organic orange juice by putting in poison in it, then try to dring when the person is not around or where that person is absent. But, if the person purposefully follows you and puts poison in your juice, on first occassion cut the hands of that person. If that person tries to put poison and force the poisonous juice under your throat, then physically kill that person. That is NOT himsa, but it is your need.

Peace
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Kabu
Posted 2006-02-07 8:24 AM (#43038 - in reply to #42923)
Subject: RE: Suffering


*Fifi* -
Money-people have no compassion for the rest of the world.


To some degree I think you're right, but I don't believe it's as heartless as it sounds. They certainly appear to lack compassion. More often than not, they lack compassion for themselves, which then makes it nearly impossible for them to cultivate strong compassion for others. They're too busy forever trying to meet their own unrealistic expectations.

The rest of this thread is headed in various directions , but this topic is the one that caught my eye, and obviously the one I feel I might have a bit of a grasp on.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
*Fifi*
Posted 2006-02-07 8:41 AM (#43042 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


Hi Kabu,

You're right, this thread is all over the place. Anyway, I've been thinking about what I wrote and to clarify I don't think there's anything wrong with having money. The money-people are the economists, the money experts - and they seem to rule the world with being able to dictate oil prices, housing prices, inflation, depression...

My real beef is that I really want to offer acupuncture services at a discounted rate for yoga instructors, etc...people that work hard, follow their heart, and don't get paid very well. I'm finding it challenging to make ends meet myself if I follow that plan. I'm really bummed out I have to focus so much on the bottom line. (And I don't live a lavish lifestyle)

This is not suffering. I don't know why I put this topic under suffering.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Kabu
Posted 2006-02-07 9:05 AM (#43045 - in reply to #43042)
Subject: RE: Suffering


Fifi ~ I understand what you mean. If everyone who had the big bucks (and we're talking the BIG bucks) and the power really worked on cultivating true compassion for others, how different would our world look? Vastly different, I think.

Re your Real Beef:

That's a nice gesture! Without question, it sounds like your bottom line needs the focus. Don't give up on the idea though. Perhaps the discount plan is something you can do in the future when the funds are there. Until then, you're doing your community a great service by just staying in business and being available to people who need you.

The Suffering discussion is way beyond me. Worrying about paying bills and making ends meet sounds like a degree of suffering to me, but I know there's a whole idea out there about it being possible to never officially "suffer" despite harships. I'm not there yet.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
kulkarnn
Posted 2006-02-07 10:42 AM (#43057 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


fifi: My real beef is that I really want to offer acupuncture services at a discounted rate for yoga instructors, etc...people that work hard, follow their heart, and don't get paid very well. I'm finding it challenging to make ends meet myself if I follow that plan. I'm really bummed out I have to focus so much on the bottom line. (And I don't live a lavish lifestyle)


comment: to meet the ends meet without hard work or with less effort, so that one can give time/effort to another desired activity is possible only when activity of meeting ends is done IN the area of extreme demand. If that activity of extreme demand is out of one's principles, NOT to do it and then sacrifice the interest in the other desired activity to some extent is: Yoga Practice. But, to feel sorry for it: Is NON-yoga practice. To keep looking for an activity where meeting ends can be done without much effort is an Optimism. And, ONLY optimism can make anything possible.

Peace
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jambo
Posted 2006-02-07 1:19 PM (#43069 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


>But, if the person purposefully follows you and puts poison in your juice, on first occassion cut the hands of that person. If that person tries to put poison and force the poisonous juice under your throat, then physically kill that person.

Wow, I think you should call the police first! I think cutting the hands off a person is pretty extreme would land you in jail, and in the second case, I’m certainly with the sentiment to defend yourself at all means from physical danger, but there are some that would argue that killing is no excuse under any circumstances. We not talking ‘frontier justice’ here, are we?

We certainly are going into some dark places in this thread. What is himsa, by the way.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Cyndi
Posted 2006-02-07 2:02 PM (#43074 - in reply to #43069)
Subject: RE: Suffering



Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
5000252525
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC
Jambo - 2006-02-07 1:19 PM

>But, if the person purposefully follows you and puts poison in your juice, on first occassion cut the hands of that person. If that person tries to put poison and force the poisonous juice under your throat, then physically kill that person.

Wow, I think you should call the police first! I think cutting the hands off a person is pretty extreme would land you in jail, and in the second case, I’m certainly with the sentiment to defend yourself at all means from physical danger, but there are some that would argue that killing is no excuse under any circumstances. We not talking ‘frontier justice’ here, are we?

We certainly are going into some dark places in this thread. What is himsa, by the way.


I would love to go back to a world where justice took care of itself naturally!! Did anyone read about the Indonesian Primitive Jungle that was just newly discovered about the size of Rhode Island?? They said the animals interacted with humans and had no fear, whatsoever. When I read that I though, OMG, that is paradise and could it still exist on the earth today?!? The reason these animals had no fear is because they lived peacefully without human interference and talk about Peaceful.

Anyway, the moral of this story is, Don't go screwing around with any Indians, Okay....especially Kshatriya's!! Police are the last people on earth to understand ahimsa and himsa because they are corrupted. Jambo, if someone were to come to my house in the country and screw around with me and my daughter?? If Yodha didn't bite them first (which I'm afraid he might NOT), then I will take measures into my own hands and it might not be so pretty if they try to pursue me in a way that may harm me or my family. There is nothing wrong with that and I am a Kshatriya too,
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Kabu
Posted 2006-02-07 2:08 PM (#43077 - in reply to #43042)
Subject: RE: Suffering


Fifi, do you see what your thread has ultimately led to? People are being poisoned, hands are getting cut off, and we'll soon be seeing Cyndi on the news in a stand-off with the local police.

Way to go, man.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Cyndi
Posted 2006-02-07 2:16 PM (#43078 - in reply to #43077)
Subject: RE: Suffering



Expert Yogi

Posts: 5098
5000252525
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC		Don't worry about me and the police, I have the sheriff's blessings on protecting myself....I live in God's country where everybody owns a protective device of somekind,
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jambo
Posted 2006-02-07 3:42 PM (#43091 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


Yeeha….to all ya’ pistol packin’ yogis. I think I better start bringing a revolver to my Yoga class. Maybe y’all like to saddle up to the bar for a pranayama or two…..and not a decent lawman to be found…Thanks for the great idea for a new studio, “Frontier Yoga”, “We don’t practice in the heat, we pack it!”
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Kabu
Posted 2006-02-07 5:27 PM (#43110 - in reply to #43091)
Subject: RE: Suffering


I'm in!!!

Is this thing going to be hand-to-hand, or are we having a huge, running gun fight?



Edited by Kabu 2006-02-07 5:28 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jambo
Posted 2006-02-07 5:49 PM (#43115 - in reply to #42884)
Subject: RE: Suffering


Not much hand to hand. Not too many hands left with all those people imbibing on orange juice. This is more a counter to Bikrum Yoga; he may have “atomic balls” but we’ll have the superior fire power.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Kabu
Posted 2006-02-07 9:33 PM (#43157 - in reply to #43110)
Subject: RE: Suffering


GJ: Swing looks like hard work (and plenty fun)!

In hand-to-hand, you'd only be in danger if you let me get in the first strike or forget to guard your groin. Otherwise you'd probably be able to hurt me something fierce. I have zero martial arts experience, and I'm only in Level 1 Krav (which means I still freeze when someone makes a scary face and comes at me ).

Plus I tend to block a lot of punches with my face. It's okay at 20% power with padded gloves. 100% power and a bare fist would put me in a coma.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Kabu
Posted 2006-02-08 9:39 AM (#43208 - in reply to #43157)
Subject: RE: Suffering


Yeah...yeeeeaaaah...*gets all shifty-eyed...I'm psychin' you out...that's it.

You have more yellow belts than I'll ever have. My previous description of my ability is pretty accurate. To prove it, the hubby jumped out and surprised me a couple of weeks ago (we have this weird Clouseau/Cato relationship..."Not NOW you fool!" ), wrapping his hands around my neck, growling.

I freaked. Totally froze. Forgot EVERYTHING I learned instantly.

It took me about 8 seconds to recover and pluck his hands off my neck. I also missed the groin shot/elbow combo in that move. He tried to make me feel better by telling me that he knew all my moves, and a normal attacker wouldn't have been ready for that, but I think he was just being nice.

I got the upper hand on him once, but he wasn't expecting it and thus was totally open. I'm dangerous if you're distracted.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1 2 3
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread


(Delete all cookies set by this site)