|
|
| I've heard of that becoming an issue ~ that's a common discussion among Krav students (guys usually).
NOT a danger with me though. We joke about my "cat-like" reflexes. One of my training partners once said, "Geez, I punch and you don't even blink." It LOOKS like I'm just not intimidated (which by itself is kinda cool), but really...my brain isn't fully registering the threat.
Last week, Tom threw a jab at me, and I managed to duck back. So there's *some* progress.  I couldn't deliver a return punch, but at least I got out of the way. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | Jambo - 2006-02-05 4:20 PM
>There are stories of people being locked up in these camps and being happy as clams. The difference is that most people expect you to suffer in a death camp, and to grin and bear it with a migraine. Therefore it's more socially acceptable to ***** about the camp than the head ache.
Surely you jest, for sure? Please point me to one of those stories where “people being locked up in these camps and being happy as clams”. That would be a revelation or “nuts” at best.
Happy as clams?! How happy are clams that are about to be steamed?! I definitely understand how people that accept their situation and "grin and bear it" are better off (and more likely to survive) than those who wallow in misery, but "happy as clams"?
I too would like you to cite your sources.
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | GreenJello - 2006-02-23 9:12 PM
JackieCat - 2006-02-23 4:05 PM
Happy as clams?! How happy are clams that are about to be steamed?! I definitely understand how people that accept their situation and "grin and bear it" are better off (and more likely to survive) than those who wallow in misery, but "happy as clams"?
I too would like you to cite your sources.
Sorry, I can't do that. I vaguely recall hearing this on the history channel or something.
Not surprised . . .
That was a pretty irresponsible comment, IMO. |
|
| |
|
| This is a very interesting convseration you two have going. I don't know if this is totally off track but I am fascinated with the "Stockholm Syndrome".
Preface: I am not judging here, just using uncomplicated language -
To me, S & M is way too far out of my understanding and comfort zone, but I there are times when I feel comfortable as the "happy as clam" prisoner. I've never been a tortured prisoner but I have caught myself being very content in an icky situation.
I have a weird interest in Marilyn Manson. I don't like his music but I saw an interview with him (VH1 or MTV) a few years back and he seemed really intelligent. Then I heard him on interviewed on Howard Stern and he seemed like a twisted jerk. But, nonetheless, I am intrigued with him and his unsual look. He's creative and interesting but represents darkness. Maybe it's his schtick, the way Marilyn Monroe was supposed to be really intelligent but she just played dumb in order for advancement in her career.
Not that this would ever happen but if I were single and MM asked me out I would go on a date with him. I think it would be interesting and part of my intrigue is that I feel like dating MM is synonymous to the Stockholm Syndrome. Does that make sense? But, alas, I just purchased the latest issue of Vogue magazine and it had a spread of MM's and DVT's beautiful wedding. Plus, my boyfriend would be very upset.
It's all a boundary issue. Who is the aggressor and who is the aggressee?
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | *Fifi* - 2006-02-25 12:01 PM
I have a weird interest in Marilyn Manson. I don't like his music but I saw an interview with him (VH1 or MTV) a few years back and he seemed really intelligent. Then I heard him on interviewed on Howard Stern and he seemed like a twisted jerk. But, nonetheless, I am intrigued with him and his unsual look. He's creative and interesting but represents darkness. Maybe it's his schtick, the way Marilyn Monroe was supposed to be really intelligent but she just played dumb in order for advancement in her career.
Not that this would ever happen but if I were single and MM asked me out I would go on a date with him. I think it would be interesting and part of my intrigue is that I feel like dating MM is synonymous to the Stockholm Syndrome. Does that make sense? But, alas, I just purchased the latest issue of Vogue magazine and it had a spread of MM's and DVT's beautiful wedding. Plus, my boyfriend would be very upset.
It's all a boundary issue. Who is the aggressor and who is the aggressee?
The Stockholm syndrome is the identification of the victim with the oppressor, right? The most famous example that I can think of right now is Patricia Hearst's identification with and collaboration with her captors when she was kidnapped. So I think that your attraction to Marilyn Manson is less Stockholm syndrome than it is an attraction to the "dark side".
Have you ever seen the movie "The Night Porter"? It's all about that boundary between aggressor/agressee . . . Dirk Bogarde plays a former concentration camp guard who had a relationship in the camps with a prisoner (Charlotte Rampling) . . . they meet by chance years later and renew their "relationship." It's super twisted (in a good way!) |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | GreenJello - 2006-02-25 10:01 AM
JackieCat - 2006-02-25 7:02 AM
Not surprised . . .
That was a pretty irresponsible comment, IMO.
Not sure why, the point was that it IS possible to be happy regardless of the circumstances. Personally I find this very reassuring. If it's that important I'll see if I get dig something up. For that matter I could tell the stories one of the Vietnam POWs related on the history channel if it helps.
I guess that I had issue with the "happy as clams" analogy. It's one thing to be accepting on your circumstances and to make the most them, but, to me, "happy as a clam" implies the joyful abandon kind of happiness. I have to think (and from what I've read, it's confirmed) that was pretty rare.
However,in the book "Human Behavior In the Concentration Camp", the author Elie Cohen (a Dutch doctor who was a prisoner at Auschwitz) says that joke telling and laughter was not uncommon there. Kind of a "laugh or cry" thing. So there was laughter and probably even moment of joy. But happy as clams? |
|
| |
|
| Thanks, I'll have to check out "The Night Porter".
|
|
| |
|
| Viktor Frankel's account of his years in the concentration camps is pretty inspiring and how his therapy grew out of that experience. Tons of stuff on the web if you are interested. I did run across an article about a person who joke and laugh to ease the suffering of the other prisoners, but can't seem to locate it now. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
   
| Laughter or tears - so true. My mother and her husband belonged to a close group of friends who spent a lot of time golfing together. One of the others died not long before my mom and a few months later someone else died unexpectedly. Mom's DH had become very ill and was diagnosed with cancer. One day he was reflecting on all the losses in their group and said "Huh - we're dying in order of our golf handicaps!"  |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | GreenJello - 2006-02-25 8:27 PM
They're literally striped of a lot of the BS that most of us feed ourselves on a daily basis. A lot of this has to do with the myth that we're going to live forever. So when you're in a situation where it's pretty obvious and in your face that you're looking death right in the eye it can be an opportunity for growth, and incredible potential. It's a bit like burning your boats/bridges behind you, it's now or never, and there's no turning back. After all a lot of what makes us unhappy is ego.
I wish I had my "Human Behavior In the Concentration Camps" book (I lent it to my brother awhile ago) . . . it's a very cool book in that the author very systematically and dispassionately discusses all aspects of behavior in the camps. I recall a section that dealt with exactly what you're talking about above- that there was a distinct lack of neurotic behavior or, for lack of a better word, ego driven behavior (i.e., worrying that you're not cute enough or that you don't live up to a particular ideal of beauty), because people were confronted with life or death situations every day. |
|
| |
|
| GreenJello - 2006-02-25 8:27 PM
It's a bit like burning your boats/bridges behind you, it's now or never, and there's no turning back. After all a lot of what makes us unhappy is ego. The feeling that what I have isn't enough, that I need more, etc.
.
Can you imagine if we lived like that? Just thinking about it gives me a happy-nervous energy.
|
|
| |
|
Location: London, England | Hi Fifi,
I was just reading a very ineresting book called 'the truth about stress' by Angela Patmore. It challenges the notion that 'stress' is bad for us, and calls into question the aims of therapists, counsellors and healers who have based their work on the research of a scientist called Hans Selye. He tortured rats and then applied what he found to humans. Angela points out that the demands of life are actually good for us-people who feel useful live longer. Yoga itself is a stress that, if we have a good practice, helps us to feel 'whole.'
The suffering that was encountered by concentration camp inmates would have been made unendurable by the utter hopelessness of their situation. like the rats in Selye's experiments, they would have resigned themselves to their fate. It is resignation, not stress per se, that is responsible for ill-health. I guess the answer is to avoid situations or a mind-set where you resign yourself to your fate. Easier said than done!!
It seems that the west's preoccupation with stress is actually killing its citizens-more and more people are taking time off work because of stress, more and more people are taking medication to combat stress. Perhaps if we learnt to cope better, to shrug off people and situations which lead to a dead end, we would perhaps be fulfilled by the challenges of our lives, rather than frustrated by them.
Take care
Nick |
|
| |
|
| Yes! That's a great point. I'm going to think about that some more and come back later - bye |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| Great point, Nick. I believe Selye said things to that effect as well. If we don't stress ourselves we don't grow. I don't believe life has become more stressful (imagine life 100 years ago where your children might die of any number of diseases and if the crops failed you starved!), but that we have become less adept at dealing with it. |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | I've been sort of ignoring this thread b/c it has all the discussion
of concentration camps. I know people who were in those camps,
and I've never really found it a very light subject. So I just haven't
read those parts of this thread.
On stress, you need a certain amount of it just to keep sharp and
to find your life stimulating. Too much of it over a sustained period
of time can overwhelm our abilities to cope. There've been plenty
of medical studies to show directl correlations of stress-related
hormones (cortisol, eg) with miscellaneous disease-related conditions.
My favorite is the one that shows that too much cortisol makes the
hippocampus shrink, that being the part of the brain associated with
memory. So I think of all those stressed-out academics who wind up
destroying their own seed-corn.
|
|
| |
|
Location: London, England | Bay Guy - 2006-03-01 3:58 AM
I've been sort of ignoring this thread b/c it has all the discussion
of concentration camps. I know people who were in those camps,
and I've never really found it a very light subject. So I just haven't
read those parts of this thread.
On stress, you need a certain amount of it just to keep sharp and
to find your life stimulating. Too much of it over a sustained period
of time can overwhelm our abilities to cope. There've been plenty
of medical studies to show directl correlations of stress-related
hormones (cortisol, eg) with miscellaneous disease-related conditions.
My favorite is the one that shows that too much cortisol makes the
hippocampus shrink, that being the part of the brain associated with
memory. So I think of all those stressed-out academics who wind up
destroying their own seed-corn.
Hi Bay Guy,
I'm the same-my Polish father's family (catholic) were executed or put in labour camps for being in the resistance and for hiding jewish people. It means I've never seen films like schindler's list-even writing the name of the film twists my insides. As john belushi says inthe blues brothers-'I hate nazis.' i never understood why the film-makers let all the nazis jump in the river rather than get run over at high speed, but it's an excellent sentiment, nonetheless!
The book i was talking about goes into the whole cortisol question, and once again it seems that research has been manipulated by the stress industry, or has been made dubious by using animals, which are nothing like humans, and torturing them incessently, which is nothing like the demands most people face in their lives.
part of the problem in defining stress appears to be that it is an engineering concept which can be applied successfully to machines, but not so successfully to the human mind. Stress refers to the pressure or tension per unit area, which causes compression or elongation (strain). it is not possible to use this model to describe the effects of a challenge on the human mind.
Apparently, because of Selye's poor english, he mixed up the words 'stress' and 'strain.'
This led to one critic wondering how"stress, in addition to being itself, and the result of itself, is also the cause of itself." 
Here's a good quote which sums it up "a man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears."
Take care
Nick |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
| I empathise with the scientists and philosophers who may do some testing or even just offer an idea (another example is the guys who talked about infant "bonding" with parents) and put it out to the world for consideration and then have the media and all of us sound bite junkies go crazy with it.  I've heard people moan about their stress level over their finances who take out a loan they can't afford for a tropical holiday to relieve the stress!  And I'll bet they are some of the same people who come to the boards and complain that they'd love to do yoga but "can't afford" yoga classes... Hmmmm....cranky already and I did have my coffee.... better have just one more |
|
| |
|
| I believe we all have our suffering quota. I think we're supposed to have some level of physical, emotional and psychological discomfort. It's funny to me to watch some people go to great lenghts to avoid "suffering" in their lives. There are actually people that work very hard to get their unemployment (think George Costanza of Seinfeld). Then these people get double dose of discomfort or aggravation just for trying to avoid it.
I can't even comprehend the magnitude of suffering of a prisoner of war or a person who's been in concentration camp. Even just writing that sentence makes me grateful for my life.
This has been an interesting thread. I wish we could all meet in an independently-owned (read: no starbucks) dimly lit coffe shop somewhere in the world and continue this conversation in person.
Nick - do they have Seinfeld in England? |
|
| |
|
Location: London, England | Hi Fifi,
We certainly do have Seinfeld-I only watch television about one hour a month so I've never seen it. I think we only had black and white last time I watched anything!
Take care
Nick
p.s. I know some really nice coffee shops in Holland, they sell all kinds of blends ! |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 418
Location: New York | I love Starbucks! |
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | Okay Fifi,
While going through my mailbox this morning, I found my weekly Dharma Quote from HH Dalai Lama. It had this thread written all over it. So, I decided to post it here for interesting reading. I hope you like it.
Question: Could you please say something on the three kinds of suffering?
His Holiness The Dalai Lama: One kind of suffering is like a headache or like yesterday's flu: discomfort in the nose, watery eyes, and so forth. In short, it includes all of those kinds of gross physical and mental sufferings that in ordinary parlance we usually call "suffering." This is the first category.
Then the second category is as follows. When we feel hungry and begin to take food, at first we feel very happy. We take one mouthful, then two, three, four, five... eventually, though it is the same person, the same food, and the same time period, we begin to find the food objectionable and reject it. This is what is meant by the "suffering of change." Practically every worldly happiness and pleasure is in this second category. Compared to other forms of suffering, at the beginning these more subtle forms of suffering seem pleasurable; they seem to afford us some happiness, but this is not true or lasting happiness, for the more we become acquainted with them, the more involved we become with them, the more suffering and trouble they bring us. That is the second category.
Now as for the third category, I think it is fair to say that it is one's own body. Roughly speaking, this is what it is. It is the body which is the fruit of afflictions, a body originally created by afflictions. Because the body is created by such causes, it is of the very nature of suffering. It comes to act as the basis of suffering. This, then, is the third category.
|
|
| |
|
Expert Yogi
Posts: 2479
Location: A Blue State | Nick - 2006-03-01 3:23 AM
part of the problem in defining stress appears to be that it is an engineering concept which can be applied successfully to machines, but not so successfully to the human mind. Stress refers to the pressure or tension per unit area, which causes compression or elongation (strain ). it is not possible to use this model to describe the effects of a challenge on the human mind.
Apparently, because of Selye's poor english, he mixed up the words 'stress' and 'strain.'
This led to one critic wondering how"stress, in addition to being itself, and the result of itself, is also the cause of itself."
Take care
Nick
It's even worse --- stress is a second-rank tensor.
But I always smile when people say "the stress is apparent on his face" or something
like that, when that which is visible is, of course, the strain!
|
|
| |
|
Location: London, England | Hi Bay guy,
Ha! I think you just summed up the whole book in one snetence: "But I always smile when people say "the stress is apparent on his face" or something
like that, when that which is visible is, of course, the strain!"
Say this in a thousand different ways, and you've got yourself a self-help book-make millions!!
Take care
Nick |
|
| |
|
| Cyndi,
Thanks for that. Can you elaborate on #2, please? I'm not quite sure it get it. The way I read #2 is that we suffer when we lose our gratitide (for having food, a roof over our heads)
Nick, I've always wanted to go to Holland. Tulips are my favorite flower. I really need to get over to Europe. The last time I went I was 12! {I'm sure there's lots of mojo in those blends} |
|
| |
|
| >Fifi - This has been an interesting thread. I wish we could all meet in an independently-owned (read: no starbucks) dimly lit coffe shop somewhere in the world and continue this conversation in person.
Wouldn't that be something! Just a bunch of Yogi roustabouts hanging together shooting the yogic sh!t in the local coffeehouse or Pub. Anybody got a scene like that? |
|
| |
Suffering
