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Post Suffering
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-02-14 3:22 PM (#43683)
Subject: Post Suffering


I think I figured out what I was trying to communicate in my Suffering thread -

Personally, I try to combine Daoist philosophy with Ju-Ch values. Mostly, I try to take the "lower position" (Daoist thought) when dealing with others. But sometimes the upper-hand people (formerly known as the money-people) get some kind of punative pleasure in "getting the upper hand" in a situation. This really bugs me. I feel like I'm judged b/c I drive a 1995 Dodge truck or because I don't have long, fake nails. I suppose I don't care what's in someone's mind. What gets me is the manifestation of that judgement in treatment and quality of care in business, for example. I could try throwing my weight around but I don't think that's what the enlightened ones want us to do. I find the upper-hand people difficult to feel compassion towards.

How do you all deal with folks like this?
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GreenJello
Posted 2006-02-14 4:07 PM (#43685 - in reply to #43683)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


Try not to put any weight into it. Meditation helps with this. It also helps to perform some intellectual exercises to understand the amount of time and energy that goes into maintaining a certain level of wealth and status.

It also helps to live in a place where people aren't as superficial. Cincy's pretty good for that, nobody here is getting rich, or going much of any place.


36
When one is about to take an inspiration, he is sure to make a
(previous) expiration; when he is going to weaken another, he will
first strengthen him; when he is going to overthrow another, he will
first have raised him up; when he is going to despoil another, he will
first have made gifts to him:--this is called 'Hiding the light (of
his procedure).'

The soft overcomes the hard; and the weak the strong.

Fishes should not be taken from the deep; instruments for the
profit of a state should not be shown to the people.


--- Lao Tzu

Edited by GreenJello 2006-02-14 4:10 PM
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Cyndi
Posted 2006-02-14 4:44 PM (#43686 - in reply to #43683)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering



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Yep, that's why I moved to the mountains. These kinds of people have weasled their way into the countryside too, like a dis-ease that is spreading like wild fire!  This has been going on like thousands of years, but it does seem like they are the majority doesn't it??  Do you really drive a Truck Fifi??  I'm surprised, I expected you to be driving a convertible Beemer...it just seemed to fit your name,   Just kiddin with ya!!

Anyway, as for the upper-handed people and not finding compassion for them??  That is so interesting because these are the people who need the most compassion, they are truly delusioned.  Sure, they "seem" to be in the driver's seat where $$ and society is concerned and all, but really, in reality these people are absolutely miserable.  I have a sister like this and whenever I get irritated with her, I remind myself of just how lucky I am compared to her, even though she is filthy loaded, seems like she is living the good life....however......She is really one stressed out, lonely, screwed up in the head about who she is individual I know.  Although, she *SHOULD* feel lucky that she has a sister like me who prays for her every day, but, it doesn't work that way and I don't need that kind of recognition cause that is not the reason I do that.  Compassion is UNCONDITIONAL, therefore, if it is *conditional* it is not *true* compassion.

You should read this poem IF, below, it will help you keep your head on straight,   My favorite part of the poem is this;  "If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much, If you can fill the unforgiving minute, With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!"  These are some mighty powerful words and can be used in every day life for every situation.  Enjoy!

IF

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

--Rudyard Kipling


Edited by Cyndi 2006-02-14 4:47 PM
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Kabu
Posted 2006-02-14 5:05 PM (#43689 - in reply to #43683)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


I agree with Green Jello.

Another thought too is that maybe some aren't really judging. They may appear to be but instead may not even be thinking twice about you, what you drive, etc.

What gets me is the manifestation of that judgement in treatment and quality of care in business, for example.


Can you give us a little more detail (if allowed) on this? How is this manifesting? Are you being denied something? Or getting treated like crap in general?
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Kabu
Posted 2006-02-14 5:09 PM (#43690 - in reply to #43686)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


Cyndi, my husband has a snippet of IF typed out and sitting on his desk.
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-02-14 5:17 PM (#43691 - in reply to #43683)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


These are great posts! I especially like #36, Green Jello.

Yep, I drive a truck. I love trucks.

I think my issue is that I live in a very plastic-y town with low morals - "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas". No consequences.

Deep down inside I know what is bugging me is a reflection of something about myself. Perhaps I judge people too much. I'm still thinking about this one...more later...



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GreenJello
Posted 2006-02-14 6:59 PM (#43694 - in reply to #43691)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


*Fifi* - 2006-02-14 5:17 PM

These are great posts! I especially like #36, Green Jello.

It's definitely one of my favs. The "soft and weak overcomes strong and hard", and "that which is to be brought low is first set on high" have both stuck in my mind for long periods of time.


I think my issue is that I live in a very plastic-y town with low morals - "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas". No consequences.

Yup, I was surprised when you mention the whole JC thing, or some of the other things you've said. Nothing wrong with them, but not what I've expect from somebody from Vegas. I think it's very very important to think about the sort of environment in which you find yourself. It's going to have a huge impact on you in so many ways.

If you are having a problem with Vegas, why are you in an environment which is hostile to what you're attempting to accomplish? What's the pay-off for staying there, and can you get it someplace else?

Deep down inside I know what is bugging me is a reflection of something about myself. Perhaps I judge people too much. I'm still thinking about this one...more later...

Being overly judgemental is one of my problems with the Christainity I've been exposed to, it just makes it very hard to fix yourself, rather than getting hung up on all the "broken" people you run into.

Sometimes things are just broken, and it's not a matter of the board in your own eye, rather than the splinter in your neighbors. Sometimes it really is just wrong.
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-02-14 7:40 PM (#43695 - in reply to #43683)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


But is it bad to have judgements against superficial and shallow people?

I mean it bugs me to no end to hear wealthy people whine about the environment, then drive big H2 cars and live in 5,000 sq ft houses that require tons of energy to heat and cool them.

On the other hand, I am humbled by people that have to endure things: housing shortages, health problems, death...

So, by admiring those that are less fortunate, I think that automatically sets me up to disdain those swimming in resources. Does this make sense? {I know I should just shut up and mind my own business but I think about all the unfair BS that people have to suffer with everyday - and how come I haven't been zapped yet? }
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GreenJello
Posted 2006-02-14 8:30 PM (#43699 - in reply to #43695)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


*Fifi* - 2006-02-14 7:40 PM

But is it bad to have judgements against superficial and shallow people?

Judgement or condemnation? It's a judgement for me that person X is likely to do behavior Y. I think this is perfectly acceptable, and to not make these sorts of calls is lunacy. This helps us deal with the pitfalls and traps along the way, and stay out of other people's snares.

It's a condemation to say that person X is a bad person for doing Y, and that they're going to hell. This causes no end of problems both for ourselves, and for those around us.

First, it causes us to get angry, and want to do something, and sit around and stew. This is bad, which is the reason why all these religions point out that things take care of themselves. In the case of JC I believe the verse is "Vengence is mine sayth the lord." In the case of Yoga, it's generally considered that karma will catch up with these people, if it hasn't already. In the case of Daoism, I believe this is relevant:


74
The people do not fear death; to what purpose is it to (try to)
frighten them with death? If the people were always in awe of death,
and I could always seize those who do wrong, and put them to death,
who would dare to do wrong?

There is always One who presides over the infliction death. He who
would inflict death in the room of him who so presides over it may be
described as hewing wood instead of a great carpenter. Seldom is it
that he who undertakes the hewing, instead of the great carpenter,
does not cut his own hands!


It also says, "Judge not lest ye be judged", which is just pointing out that if you fail to have compassion for another's failings, you're like to be equally harsh on yourself, and your own failings. Being overly harsh with yourself doesn't really help, because it feeds into the feelings of importance about the whole thing. It builds it up into a big whipping deal, which makes it hard to fix.


On the other hand, I am humbled by people that have to endure things: housing shortages, health problems, death...

So are they. Suffering's wonderful for reducing self-importance.


So, by admiring those that are less fortunate, I think that automatically sets me up to disdain those swimming in resources. Does this make sense? {I know I should just shut up and mind my own business but I think about all the unfair BS that people have to suffer with everyday - and how come I haven't been zapped yet? }

Sure, I just think you're probably making yourself miserable by disdaining the other people. They've also got their problems as Cyndi points out. Most people say they want to be rich, when what they really mean is they want to be happy. If they were really happy, they wouldn't be hypocrits, because most hypocrits are saying one thing and doing another to make themselves feel better about who they are.

BTW, why should you be zapped?
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Jambo
Posted 2006-02-14 9:08 PM (#43702 - in reply to #43683)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


Money simply gives you more options. See the film "Boys of Baraka".
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Cyndi
Posted 2006-02-15 11:55 AM (#43735 - in reply to #43699)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering



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GreenJello - 2006-02-14 8:30 PM

Sure, I just think you're probably making yourself miserable by disdaining the other people. They've also got their problems as Cyndi points out. Most people say they want to be rich, when what they really mean is they want to be happy. If they were really happy, they wouldn't be hypocrits, because most hypocrits are saying one thing and doing another to make themselves feel better about who they are.



I totally agree GJ, that is perfect. Human beings really want happiness, not getting rich. Money does help you live a comfortable life, IF you utilize it properly and treat it with the upmost respect. Let me point out something else. This is about judging others. If we were to utilize all the time we spend on disdaining and judging others we would have more time to gain the perfect insight into the *true* nature of ourselves and our present conditions. For instance, the guy driving the Hummer SUV complaining about the environment. Actually, I see this as a good thing. At least he is aware of the environment...one day the truth will *bop* him on the head and he will realize. We have to be able to step aside and allow these people the opportunity to have their full realizations...otherwise, it will all be in vain. Another words, never think for one minute that you yourself have not been in the other persons shoes, cause you have....in fact, you were probably worse than they are. You cannot deny that because we have lived so many countless lives in so many dimensions. If you were to just rely on this one particular lifetime and experience, then I would say you are wasting your life and you are not in tuned to who you *truly* are. So, give it up, give up the need to be right, give up the sanctimonious act and start accepting things and people for who they are. Then, you will be free and clear perhaps at this point you will be an example to follow and then you can make a difference in this world, rather than being in a judgmental state of being that you cannot change by yourself.
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Kabu
Posted 2006-02-15 1:32 PM (#43743 - in reply to #43695)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


*Fifi* -
But is it bad to have judgements against superficial and shallow people?


Yeah, ultimately I think it is, but only because it makes you judgmental and unhappy. And who wants to live that way?

Sometimes I can be hard on a particular person, and I have to remind myself that they have their own thing going on. They may be happy, unhappy, content, suffering, etc. at different times for different reasons. The point is...they're usually doing the best they can with what they have...just like the rest of us.

Not having enough money to cover monthly bills is a huge stress. I know when we were in that situation, I often became very frustrated when I saw people just throwing cash around without a second thought. That would manifest itself as judgment towards them ("How selfish!" "How self absorbed!"), but really I just wanted respite from my own financial problems. It had nothing to do with how others spent their time and money, and everything to do with my stress level.

Once we started making decent money, naturally that judgment disappeared. That and I've changed quite a bit in the last 16 years. I know the money isn't guaranteed forever, and I'm always wondering how long our financial security will last (my husband is changing jobs, so the paycheck will only be a fraction of what it once was). My hope is that I will be able to carry this understanding with me regardless of our financial situation.

Juggling bills is hard enough ~ don't make it harder on yourself by judging others.

Edited by Kabu 2006-02-15 1:45 PM
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Cyndi
Posted 2006-02-15 1:58 PM (#43748 - in reply to #43743)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering



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Hey Lori,

Wait till you get to a point where not having enough $$ comes back around....then you'll have the ultimate test for yourself...on whether or not you can deal with it again. The point is to NOT be attached to anything, not have any judgement because you never know where you'll end up. So the real point is to be happy and content on the inside and not be dependant on your external situation - period, whether it be good or bad. I believe they call this the middle path.

Right now I owe tons of money to everyone...you think I'm going to stress out over this?? No flippin way!!! I know eventually it will balance itself back out and things will be fine and I'll be rich again, Meanwhile, I'm going to enjoy being alive. I'm going to utilize my time as an aspirant to devote myself to this yoga path, which is my number one priority. As for the environment and the earth...same principal applies, I'm going to enjoy Mother earth and what is left of her. I know that this is not permanent and it too shall pass. There is a divine order and we are merely players. I am going to concentrate on doing my part and doing it well. Is the glass half empty or half full?? You have a choice, you can either look at the moon and stars or set your sights on the gutter, it's your choice. The rest of the BS is not up to us to control, change or manipulate into what we would like for it to be. In fact, perhaps that is where the conflict lies....if we did have our way about it and how we think things should be, it may not be as perfect as it already is.
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Kabu
Posted 2006-02-15 2:24 PM (#43756 - in reply to #43748)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


Cyndi -
Wait till you get to a point where not having enough $$ comes back around....then you'll have the ultimate test for yourself...on whether or not you can deal with it again. The point is to NOT be attached to anything, not have any judgement because you never know where you'll end up. So the real point is to be happy and content on the inside and not be dependant on your external situation - period, whether it be good or bad. I believe they call this the middle path.


Oooh yeah...I've actually given this a great deal of thought. We've never been materialistic in the traditional sense, meaning we don't have the latest and greatest of anything. We sometimes get teased by family members (who I think are a little too preoccupied with our $$ for their own good) for being cheap, Amish, in the dark ages, etc. But I like the way we are. Since the day his paycheck shot up, I told myself there would come a time when it would disappear, so we made a conscious decision to live beneath our means.

For this reason, I'm thankful for our rough beginning. I know some people who have NO idea what it's like to worry about bills, and who think nothing of spending money. I would imagine the transition from money to not-so-much would be much more traumatic for them.

As for not being judgmental of those who have oodles of cash, here's hoping I can walk the walk. *crosses fingers*
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GreenJello
Posted 2006-02-15 2:48 PM (#43757 - in reply to #43756)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


Kabu - 2006-02-15 2:24 PM

Oooh yeah...I've actually given this a great deal of thought. We've never been materialistic in the traditional sense, meaning we don't have the latest and greatest of anything. We sometimes get teased by family members (who I think are a little too preoccupied with our $$ for their own good) for being cheap, Amish, in the dark ages, etc. But I like the way we are. Since the day his paycheck shot up, I told myself there would come a time when it would disappear, so we made a conscious decision to live beneath our means.

Wonderful! I always get nervous when I hear about how far above their means most americans live. I've been fighting that for a bit personally. After I got my lastest job I started to loosen up the spending a little bit, and have gone overboard on a couple of occasions, though nothing disasterous. When I was a lowly grad student I was making it quite well on about $1K per month, now it's probably double that.

I just got a new Motorola Razor cell phone for $100, which is really nice, but definitely not something I need in anyway. Basically I've had a very basic phone (monochrome LCD, and it rang) for a couple of years, which has worked wonderfully, but I thought I'd get a better one when I extended my contract. I was figuring on a free one, but this one really caught my eye, and now I've got it doing the Boswain whistle like they had on the original Star Trek for the ringtone. Oh vanity...


For this reason, I'm thankful for our rough beginning. I know some people who have NO idea what it's like to worry about bills, and who think nothing of spending money. I would imagine the transition from money to not-so-much would be much more traumatic for them.

Even people who don't have a lot seem to have developed a pattern of over spending in some cases, I really don't understand it.
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Kabu
Posted 2006-02-15 3:33 PM (#43767 - in reply to #43757)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


GreenJello -
Even people who don't have a lot seem to have developed a pattern of over spending in some cases, I really don't understand it.


I've recently become aware of people who spend in order to appear wealthy, when in reality they're in debt up to their eyeballs. That blew me away! We spent years getting our loans paid off and have no desire to go through that again.
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Jambo
Posted 2006-02-15 6:07 PM (#43777 - in reply to #43683)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


>Kabu - Since the day his paycheck shot up, I told myself there would come a time when it would disappear, so we made a conscious decision to live beneath our means.

And that's the key. Good for you not to buy more 'stuff'. "Right-sizing" our economic situation seems the way to go. Less time on the money thing and more on the Yoga thing. Good to get the financial monkey off our backs (and with no more b'ing about people with money).
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tourist
Posted 2006-02-15 6:50 PM (#43781 - in reply to #43777)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering



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We know of some people who are seriously wealthy - they own a small island Vacation homes in various parts of the world etc. During one big economic downturn they had to sell their jet... Not a chance I would exchange their life for ours. Not in a million years! But I would be pretty bummed if we ever lost this house and the hot tub. I LOVE my hot tub!
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Cyndi
Posted 2006-02-15 6:53 PM (#43783 - in reply to #43767)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering



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Kabu - 2006-02-15 3:33 PM

GreenJello -
Even people who don't have a lot seem to have developed a pattern of over spending in some cases, I really don't understand it.


I've recently become aware of people who spend in order to appear wealthy, when in reality they're in debt up to their eyeballs. That blew me away! We spent years getting our loans paid off and have no desire to go through that again.


Oh come on Lori, you're no fun!! I wish I was in a postition right now to even spend in order to appear wealthy....that sounds like so much fun right now,

Although, I guess it would help if one knew how to spend in order to appear wealthy??
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Kabu
Posted 2006-02-15 7:11 PM (#43788 - in reply to #43783)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


Cyndi -
Oh come on Lori, you're no fun!!


I fear you're right. It took us 10 years to finally take a vacation (and a modest one at that...we still get teased for this trip, but the kids loved it...so screw the naysayers, eh?).


Although, I guess it would help if one knew how to spend in order to appear wealthy??


The Universal Formula: fancy car/big house.
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GreenJello
Posted 2006-02-15 8:26 PM (#43803 - in reply to #43767)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


Kabu - 2006-02-15 3:33 PM

GreenJello -
Even people who don't have a lot seem to have developed a pattern of over spending in some cases, I really don't understand it.


I've recently become aware of people who spend in order to appear wealthy, when in reality they're in debt up to their eyeballs. That blew me away! We spent years getting our loans paid off and have no desire to go through that again.


In one case I think the problem is that my friend's wife is partially pushing him into it. It's not like a nagging thing, but more subtle, along the lines of his role is to provide for her, and he's not quite to the point that she would like, so they're gradually going into debt. They just recently bought her a new truck, and they've got sizable credit card debt, so I don't see much good coming out of it.


We know of some people who are seriously wealthy - they own a small island Vacation homes in various parts of the world etc. During one big economic downturn they had to sell their jet... Not a chance I would exchange their life for ours.

Why not? Nothing wrong with being rich, it would certainly make it easier for me to practice yoga, though I'd probably buy a cave up in the mountains, and disappear for about 10 years.



Although, I guess it would help if one knew how to spend in order to appear wealthy??

The Universal Formula: fancy car/big house.

Or you could just buy a bigger or more version of whatever the neighbors have. Lets face it, everybody in this country is pretty rich, we've got enough to eat, a roof over our heads, and at least 2-3 TVs per person.
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Kabu
Posted 2006-02-15 11:09 PM (#43822 - in reply to #43803)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


Agreed. We're all doing pretty darn well when you consider how much worse things could be. And having moolah isn't bad if your priorities are straight.

In one case I think the problem is that my friend's wife is partially pushing him into it.


Oh, I've seen that. And you're so right ~ it will do more than just create a mountain of debt. Depending on the outcome, he could end up resenting her in a big way.
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-02-16 3:33 PM (#43896 - in reply to #43683)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


You are all right about debt!

I figured out what's really bugging me: I find people are motivated to get things done in a timely fashion (telephone systems guy, cable guy, health insurance people, etc...) when I throw a fit and scream at them. I hate getting that wound up. But, I've been noticing that being nice, compassionate and forgiving puts my problems at the bottom of the work-order pile. It's amazing how quickly things get done when you throw a fit.

Throwing a fit makes me one of those upper-hand people (I think) and I dislike it. Where does looking out for you end and compassion begin? I think you all have already answered this and I'm just having a head-trip (and beating a dead horse).

Maybe I'm just experiencing a batch of careless people. I don't think everyone is out to screw you but I'm getting more cynical by the day. Boo hoo ~ fifi
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GreenJello
Posted 2006-02-16 3:48 PM (#43898 - in reply to #43896)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


*Fifi* - 2006-02-16 3:33 PM

I figured out what's really bugging me: I find people are motivated to get things done in a timely fashion (telephone systems guy, cable guy, health insurance people, etc...) when I throw a fit and scream at them. I hate getting that wound up. But, I've been noticing that being nice, compassionate and forgiving puts my problems at the bottom of the work-order pile. It's amazing how quickly things get done when you throw a fit.

Well, I think the fits are avoidable. I also think that dealing with people in a kind considerate manner can get you put to the bottom of the pile. You just need to work on find the happy medium between throwing a fit, and being a doormat. Somewhere between the two is being assertive. If nothing happens after you're direct and firm with these people, then throw a fit, they've earned it.

If somebody does something, don't forgive them unless they ask, point out their omission, but do so tactfully, and don't back down.

Maybe I'm just experiencing a batch of careless people. I don't think everyone is out to screw you but I'm getting more cynical by the day. Boo hoo ~ fifi

Or it could be that you're coming across as somebody to take advantage of. Many people will do this without really realizing it if you give them the idea that this is acceptable. This might be how some of that compassionate action is coming across, and if it is, then it's nolonger compassionate, because it's making things difficult for both of parties.

Stand up, be bold, be strong take the whole of the responsibility upon your own shoulders. Let them know you're not going to take any guff, but do so gently.

Tall order, huh?

If you give some specific examples, we might be able to give you some further pointers. In some cases it's just a matter of watching somebody else be assertive. My teacher was great about this, he didn't let anything slide.
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-02-16 5:14 PM (#43904 - in reply to #43683)
Subject: RE: Post Suffering


Interesting observation, GJ. See, I think I'm a fairly assertive person, but I try really hard not to be aggressive b/c I know I can be an aggressive person. But, I look very young and probably unsophisticated since I don't wear fancy clothes or drive a big car, and people probably think I'm a fool. Hmmm....a fool. I need to embrace the fool.

Ok, gotta go but you've given me fodder, Green Jello
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