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form and vinyasa
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Posted 2006-03-26 11:16 AM (#47807)
Subject: form and vinyasa


Here is the question and I think I know the answer: What comes first? Form or Speed of the vinyasa. I went to a class where we went from, pardon my english instead of Sanskrit, one-legged Ado Muka Svanasana to Warrior I (i know the Sanskrit, just cannot spell it) and repeated it 3 times in record time and ended with plank, Chantaranga dandasana, upward dog, etc. To me, form was sacrificed, thus I did not keep up with the insructor and it was not with the breath. The flow from one legged Ado Muko Svanasana to Warrior I takes time for proper foot placement, etc.

Any comments?
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Posted 2006-03-26 1:07 PM (#47816 - in reply to #47807)
Subject: The need for Speed


Lets ask this another way- Why do some students/instructors mostly it seems in a gym setting feel the need for speed in a yoga class? I have heard comments, even in RYT classes, that the students would rather have Power and Ashtanga classes than Hatha and Iygengar classes. Would it be that they feel they get a better workout doing "speeder" classes? Hatha has Vinyasa which is just as much as the above.
Please don't be too harsh on me. Just wondering. I know the gym mindset is to get a good workout and walk out of the class room sweaty and tired- mainly cardio classes. How about yoga? That is the vibe I am getting. I want to change that mindset and it wil be a challenge.

Edited by namaste2 2006-03-26 1:10 PM
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nuclear_eggset
Posted 2006-03-26 1:54 PM (#47819 - in reply to #47807)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa


I think it's the desire to 'get exercise', and people think that you know you have gotten exercise by being tired and sweaty and sore and out of breath. There's little respect for slow and purposeful - it's viewed as inefficient and "not as good". Embracing the idea of 'good enough' is hard for a lot of people, let alone 'best for the moment, even if not always best'. I prefer starting slow to get form, and then speeding up, but sometimes, even when I'm happy with form, moving slowly through to feel the effort of each muscle is good too.
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Cyndi
Posted 2006-03-26 2:39 PM (#47825 - in reply to #47816)
Subject: RE: The need for Speed



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Namaste`,

This is the reason I have a home practice. I'll never forget, a long time ago while I was sitting in an Whole Life Expo seminar, when I was approached by this younger than me guy, who started up a conversation about Tai Chi Qi Gong. In Tai Chi, you are suppose to move really slowly and intentional with the movements as you flow from one pose to the next. Moving fast is not recommended and not how I was taught. I'll never forget how he proudly told me, "I have a fast way of doing Tai Chi" - I can get it done in 15 mins, what would normally take over an hour. I just kinda said, "okay, yea right". Your post reminded me of that conversation and how I felt in a Bikram studio as I struggled to maintain the class flow with my posture form and alignment, don't ya hate that feeling....I always felt cheated,
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tourist
Posted 2006-03-26 3:34 PM (#47839 - in reply to #47816)
Subject: RE: The need for Speed



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Namaste - my little fingers are just itching to blast you about such a stupid question but you know I can't do that! If we were discussing in person I could be very sarcastic and we would have a laugh but it doesn't come through online very well. Oh well. There is no such thing as a stupid question!

Yeah - it is all that workout thing. And truly, I believe that it is fine to work that way if that is what you want from yoga. I know practitioners of different schools who just love to grunt and sweat and work themselves into a lather. That is their practice, their way and their need - at least for the moment. I can't work that way, although I have been told that I have taught classes that were "too hard" or "kicked butt." I am such a wimp I figure if I can do it anyone can do it And yes, it is very easy to sacrifice alignment in a speedy practice. A lot of longtime vinyasa people spend at least some time in Iyengar or Anusara classes, either to heal injuries, learn alignment or both. Me, I am all about the alignment so Iyengar is ideal for me. I should probably spend more time jumping and sweating, but as long as I can still fit into the FIERCE new ballroom dress I bought last week you're just not gonna get me to do it. (And you should see the shoes! Yummy )
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Posted 2006-03-26 7:12 PM (#47863 - in reply to #47839)
Subject: RE: The need for Speed


Thanks Tourist for not blasting me, but I knew somebody would have the urge. Form is the most important to me and I "kick butt" with form and holding the pose, not rushing through it. This is one of the reasons I am going for the 200 hour training in a 6-9 month time period. I want to learn as much as I can, even though yoga is a continuous journey of its own.

I look great just practicing Hatha yoga, Vinyasa included of course. Cyndi, thanks for the Tai Chi moment. That guy is missing out on the beauty and form of Tai Chi..his loss. I guess that is what some Gymies are missing...everyone is in a rush to hurry and be done, faster is better. I have seen that with BPM in Step aerobic classes....faster is better, NOT. Faster=more injuries!

I could go on and on, but I just had to make sure I was on the same page as my yogi buddies Thanks ya'll for your comments and keep dancing Glenda-Twinkletoes
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Kabu
Posted 2006-03-26 7:34 PM (#47865 - in reply to #47863)
Subject: RE: The need for Speed


I like a little of both in a practice. But let's face it, unless a person is already comfortable with the alignment of the poses, zipping through is probably a pretty bad idea.

I think I shall forever take at least one Basics Anusara class a week, regardless of how much I visit the upper level classes, just for the alignment alone. I want my body to automatically fall into place, you know? Among other things, it sure would make the faster moving classes safer (not to mention more graceful).
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Posted 2006-03-26 7:43 PM (#47867 - in reply to #47865)
Subject: RE: The need for Speed


Kabu-

What is the diiference between Iygengar and Anusara yoga? They both must deal with alignment of the poses...is one a branch of the other? Thanks.
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Kabu
Posted 2006-03-26 8:01 PM (#47869 - in reply to #47867)
Subject: RE: The need for Speed


I affectionately refer to Anusara as "Iyengar Lite," but I think Tourist could give you a better comparison between the two than I.

Anusara's founder, John Friend, is a trained Iyengi, so there is a similar emphasis on alignment. Having never been to a Iyengar studio (yet!), I can't give you a personal account of how things are done in an Iyengar studio, but at Anusara it's very "warm and fuzzy." There's music, and each class has a theme (like forgiveness or gratitude), and that's worked into the yoga practice. There is much talk about love, peace, energy, etc.

As for the poses themselves, in Basics there's a blend of both flow (where it almost seems like a dance) and moments where we work in depth on one particular pose (our main instructor can break a pose down into unbelievable detail). And they usually throw in advanced poses here and there, just for fun. Here's a little info from Friend's site:

Anusara

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Jambo
Posted 2006-03-26 8:15 PM (#47870 - in reply to #47807)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa


>Kabu - Anusara's founder, John Friend, is a trained Iyengi, so there is a similar emphasis on alignment. Having never been to a Iyengar studio (yet!), I can't give you a personal account of how things are done in an Iyengar studio, but at Anusara it's very "warm and fuzzy." There's music, and each class has a theme (like forgiveness or gratitude), and that's worked into the yoga practice. There is much talk about love, peace, energy, etc.


Some even call Anusara the "friendly" Iyengar. I have never seen a more 'beautiful' Yoga style of going into asanas. Anusara is actually slower going into poses with more dramatic alignment then Iyengar. Then both end up in the same place, but I swear, it's always like a ‘slow motion dance” getting there with the Anusara folks. With Anusara, I seem to be able to set up better in poses then with Iyengar.

-From a previous response in the Anusara area, hopefully with the name of the style spelled correctly.
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tourist
Posted 2006-03-26 10:07 PM (#47882 - in reply to #47870)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa



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I can't really add much to the Anusara description since I haven't experienced it. My Iyengar teachers are very fun and friendly so I don't feel the need to get any more warm and fuzzy and there are no Anusara classes here so I guess I won't get into it. But the alignment is the same in the end, I am told, which is the key. Our old friend Christine calls her Iyengar classes her "theory" classes which keep her safein her beloved Ashtanga practice.

Re: the speed thing. I meant to mention the quickie workout chains that are all over the place nowadays. The women's chain pushes their 30 minute workout but I see there is a small men's chain with a similar idea. Theirs is only 20 minutes, though. I guess the guys have to be more macho and do the same workout in less time
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laurajhawk
Posted 2006-03-27 6:02 PM (#47948 - in reply to #47807)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa


OK, I agree with everybody about the importance of form but for me, one reason to master the form of the asanas is to be able to move gracefully and correctly when doing vinyasa quickly. This isn't because I'm some appearance-obsessed gym junkie; it's partly because it's FUN (and if that's too shallow for you, then fine ), and partly because the level of focus I achieve in moving quickly through poses -- because of the need to not wander mentally and so miss/rush a transition -- is greater than what I can achieve doing poses more slowly/statically.

So there
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tourist
Posted 2006-03-27 6:34 PM (#47951 - in reply to #47948)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa



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The level of focus required to domoves slowly is much greater - for example in dance, a slow waltz is much more difficult than a quickstep. So going quickly is actually bypassing the deepening of the focus. But if it is for fun then go for it
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Posted 2006-03-27 9:19 PM (#47962 - in reply to #47869)
Subject: RE: flow and vinyasa


Duh Ya'll- I was having a moment there...I have taken a class with John Friend and another duh-- he is in Houston He helped me in Ado Muka Svanasana years ago at the Southwest Yoga Conference when it was held in Austin. Lots of fun! Thanks for jogging my memory

I love to dance! The waltz is the best! Wouldn't it have been great to be waltzing in Vienna during the day to Strauss? I am just an old movie buff at heart.

Edited by namaste2 2006-03-27 9:21 PM
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tourist
Posted 2006-03-28 12:31 AM (#47977 - in reply to #47962)
Subject: RE: flow and vinyasa



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Viennese waltz is HARD! Lots of spinning around at high speed. Maybe the big poofy dresses helped with the balance
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YogaGuy
Posted 2006-03-28 10:24 AM (#48004 - in reply to #47807)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa


Iyengar is awesome. Anusara is awesome. Vinyasa is awesome. Can't we all just get along?

Back to the topic: form v. speed?

Form is always important. It should come first always but if you practice regularly and know your poses, you can get into and out of the poses in one breath. That isn't always the way poses should be practiced; you should learn them slowly. Like learning an instrument. No one would argue that all music should be played Largo. Andante is nice sometimes.

Speed is not usually a requirement of vinyasa practice. Vinyasa practitioners are concerned with the FLOW of poses. Your description sounds like you were just doing surya namaskar B (or a variation of it) really fast which might not have been really fast if you were good at surya namaskar B. The sun salutations are usually done with the linking of each pose to an inhale or an exhale. That can go by fairly fast, but the sun salutations are meant to build heat.

Many Vinyasa practitioners find a certain meditative quality of linking the movement with the breath. It becomes a sort of dance and you can lose yourself in it and it is a wonderful experience.
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shnen
Posted 2006-03-28 11:01 AM (#48010 - in reply to #47807)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa


I try to get my students to be aware of the movement inbetween poses, keeping the body flowing, while we move into our next posture.

I completely agree with your comment Yoga Guy.
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laurajhawk
Posted 2006-03-28 6:39 PM (#48080 - in reply to #47951)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa


tourist - 2006-03-27 4:34 PM

The level of focus required to do moves slowly is much greater


... and I said the level of focus I actually achieve is greater when moving faster -- these aren't antithetical .... I'm not good enough to go slow
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tourist
Posted 2006-03-28 8:52 PM (#48094 - in reply to #48080)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa



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True laura - yet once we do get that focus in quick-time, the real test is to slow it all down until you can do it with total control and total focus v-e-r-y slowly. The chiffon swishes much more elegantly then But as you say, for fun. speed is good
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Posted 2006-03-29 8:38 AM (#48136 - in reply to #48004)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa


Thanks Yogaguy for you for imput and explanation of vinyasa. I can do surya namaskar B, if need be modify, but my complaint was with the flow of the additional two poses within the vinyasa.

I do agree that it does become a meditative quality between movement and breath because it flows smoothly. Thanks again for your explanation . Form is important to me, foremost.
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Jambo
Posted 2006-04-05 9:12 PM (#48775 - in reply to #47807)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa


>YG - Back to the topic: form v. speed?

It’s all about the breathing along with the teacher and the class in Vinyasa. Their speed might be quicker or slower then your breathing. It kills the flow either way if you are out of sync. I go along with my flow classes, but spend lots of time adjusting my form in poses when those classes allow the time to do so. I think it’s pretty obvious in my Ashtanga/Vinsaya classes that I am also disciplined in the Iyengar/Anusara tradition because I spend lots of time setting up the asanas as time will allow.
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YogaGuy
Posted 2006-04-06 9:47 AM (#48790 - in reply to #47807)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa


I find that it important to be flexible not only in your body but in your mind. When I'm in Iyengar class, I try to practice like the teacher wants me to. When I'm in Ashtanga class I try to practice like an ashtangi. If left to my own devices I'll do what feels right to me. I find it difficult to try my anusara moves out when I'm doing my ashtanga practice because it's disruptive and my teacher always aligns me differently in ashtanga. I have found that there is no single right way to do a pose or a flow it depends on you, your teacher, the day and what you had for breakfast, inter alia.

It's easier to flow with the river than try to fight it.
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Miabella704
Posted 2006-04-06 11:16 AM (#48805 - in reply to #47807)
Subject: RE: form and vinyasa


I say 1) breathing 2) form 3) speed

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