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Axis and Sacrum
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-05-23 5:39 PM (#53628)
Subject: Axis and Sacrum


I was wondering if the axis and sacrum have a special relationship since the axis is the second from the top and the sacrum is the second from the bottom.

Thanks
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GreenJello
Posted 2006-05-23 7:14 PM (#53638 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


What are the Axis and Sacrum?
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tourist
Posted 2006-05-23 7:18 PM (#53639 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum



Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
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fifi - I think there is. I heard some discussions of a workshop with Gabriella Giubilaro (famous Italian Iyengar teacher nobody has ever heard of, probably). I don't know the specifics but it was something about keeping the sacrum and base of the skull (close enough to the axis) level with each other in back bends.
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-05-23 7:19 PM (#53640 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


Oh, I just reread my post and it's pretty vague, isn't it? They are vertebrae. The axis is C2 and the sacrum is, you know, the sacrum.
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GreenJello
Posted 2006-05-23 9:02 PM (#53648 - in reply to #53640)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


*Fifi* - 2006-05-23 7:19 PM

Oh, I just reread my post and it's pretty vague, isn't it? They are vertebrae. The axis is C2 and the sacrum is, you know, the sacrum.

Maybe, maybe not. I've heard of them before, so they're pretty famous, but I couldn't remember what they were. OTOH I really can't make a useful comment on your post, so maybe it all works out. The people who know those two vertebrae are the only ones who can make a useful comment anyway.
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-05-23 11:59 PM (#53659 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


Thank you, Tourist. That's interesting. How would one know if the sacrum and axis are aligned in a backbend?

I am curious if there is a difference in the relationship between the sacrum/C2 in men and in women.

They certainly are very famous!

Edited by *Fifi* 2006-05-24 12:00 AM
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tourist
Posted 2006-05-24 10:38 AM (#53696 - in reply to #53659)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum



Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
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*Fifi* - 2006-05-23 8:59 PM
How would one know if the sacrum and axis are aligned in a backbend?


Good question. I will ask my friends who went to the workshop,
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SCThornley
Posted 2006-05-24 11:53 AM (#53702 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


PAGING DR. NICK!!!!!!!He knows, for sure!

i think the sacrum is not a vertabrae, technically speaking,

the sacro-illiac joint is a real issue in me, one of my legs is just a little longer than the other and it can lead to some alignment issues when i'm up on my feet all day. Ever since I recovered from a bad accident when i was 11, i've been isolating that joint for manipulation to acquire relief from pain.
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Debby
Posted 2006-05-24 3:51 PM (#53737 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


The atlas is C1, axis C2, and prominens is C7. The vertebral column consists of cervical, thoracic, lumbar and sacral curves. But to answer the question of the axis and sacrum being in line, I'm not sure what you mean considering the natural curves.

It will be interesting to hear Nick's response.

(had to dig out my old anatomy book for this one.)

Deb
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-05-24 4:12 PM (#53739 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


My question has a personal reason: my chronic neck pain gets worse during my period. During my period, I have low back achiness and general discomfort. Both the chronic neck pain and low back discomfort (not pain) can be managed with yoga, Chinese herbs, acupuncture and gentle chiropractic manipulaiton. However, the neck sustained an injury years ago and just hasn't been the same. In fact, it gets worse during my period. It's like my neck and low back gang up on me (very bad timing on their part).

The chiro I used to work for briefly mentioned the connection the sacrum and c2 (axis) have since they sort of "mirror" each other. (I'm sure mirror is not the correct word). My former boss, the chiro, was a man of few words, so the significance of c2 and the sacrum is still a mystery to me. Maybe it's no big deal but I want to find out. For the record, my former chiro-boss gave too hard of a neck adjustment, so I wasn't really treating with chiropractic for over 3 years. (He would give me a headache, and not b/c he was my boss.)

I know what the reason is from a traditional Chinese medicine point of view, but that's not helping completely, so it must be structural/alignment and that's out of my scope. I hope Nick has a really cool answer. Any tricks for pain management/self-care would be appreciated! fifi
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SCThornley
Posted 2006-05-24 4:27 PM (#53740 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


well.........
when my Sacro-Iliac or neck is acting up, i'll lay on the hard flat ground with my feet supported for upwards near an hour to get it right again, and slowly flattening out the curves in my spine and neck over that hour has always seemed to do the trick. It sorta looks like i'm in a dinner table chair, sitting upright, only i'm on my back. So doing it infront of the couch or at the edge of your bed may be the place, but you need about an hour where you won't be bothered.

by flattening out and slowly lengthening the spine in this manner i've come back from some pretty gruesome injuries...

my pain comes from being hit by a car twice [breaking both legs once (and almost bleeding to death), and an arm and a leg the other time], and breaking my collarbone. Years of wrestling, and wrestling some real bruisers.

Recently i was rear ended, but it was just a little bump, and has led to some neck pain, that is slowly dissolving, whenever i look far left. But it's going away, i manage.

it takes about a half an hour to really sink into this back flattening and stretching, so the second half hour is where the benefit really starts.

I learned this technique from a real natural. A Fella in Philadelphia, by the name of Null.

I don't have to do it nearly as often as I used to, but it really, really did the trick.

Good Luck!

Edited by SCThornley 2006-05-24 4:30 PM
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SCThornley
Posted 2006-05-24 4:39 PM (#53741 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


i am wrong, looks like the sacrum most definitely is considered a vertebrae

my mistake

but really, what i said above has helped me deal for real for a long, long time

i'm 36 and have dealt with this kind of pain since i was 11.
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-05-24 6:44 PM (#53756 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


Thank you, Debby and Steve Thornley.

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tourist
Posted 2006-05-24 7:28 PM (#53765 - in reply to #53756)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum



Expert Yogi

Posts: 8442
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Fifi - well now you have me seriously puzzled! I get back discomfort with my period (ever since I had those darn kids! ) but in spite of having had whiplash at least once in adult life and likely a few times as a child (one I remember well because my mom tried to keep me awake all night..) I have not associated any neck pain with it. Migraines, yes, but not general neck pain. Hmmmm...... I think you might want to do some "woo-woo" stuff and do a little word association looking at the words and their meanings to you, what symbols come to mind when you think of your neck, back, period, pain etc. and then sit with the question "why does my neck hurt?" I have had some pretty startling insights doing stuff like that. And if that doens't work, try crystals or pendulums (actually, I have had some good results with pendulums, too. Although I do not rely on them as much as a woman my DD knew from working in a health food store. She would come in and pendulum every single blessed thing she bought Wouldn't you hate to get your grocery cart stuck behind her? )
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-05-25 12:54 AM (#53797 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


I love woo-woo.

I am fortunate I've never had a migraine, but after my last post I was thinking about all the female patients that come in for acupuncture for relief of their migraines - and those migraines often begin in the neck.

I have a couple of pendulums. I've haven't used them much because I was confused about part of the instruction. I'll ask you: when I first learned a little bit about using pendulum, the pendulum teacher said that we had to ask the pendulum permission before we could ask it questions. It swings one way for yes, the other for no. This made sense at the time but when I got home I got stuck with how do you ask the pendulum permission without asking a question? Then I forgot which response was yes and which was no. I'm glad you brought this up. fifi

P.S. Sometimes I think it would be great to go through life divining every step of the way, but then I figure life is too short.
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Nick
Posted 2006-05-25 4:12 AM (#53799 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi All,
Blimey, this post is a good one-I'm going to have to do a few posts. is the sacrum a vertebra-yes it is, or was, but modified a few million years ago in its present form. But many people see a picture of it and presume it is just one bone-it is not until we are in a our thirtieth year, I believe, that the five sacral bones actually fuse (so be extra vigilant about keeping its alignment up until then). The sacroiliac joint itself has a cuople of degreess of movement throughout life, but in the elderly (or perhaps if you have been doing construction work your whole life) the SI joint can fuse-but folks do not make the mistake that is so prevaslent in yoga circles of thinking that when the sacrum is fused, then the SI joint is fused-practically every yoga teacher I meet who talks about the sacrum think that it is locked to the pelvis. I will do a post later about this beautiful bone and its joints.
I'm afraid, Fifi, that you might have some printing out to do, I can feel my creative juices rising!
Is there a connection between axis and sacrum-some therapies, such as cranio-sacral work would go into this, and I believe some chiro's also only work on the top two vertebra (atlas and axis-C1-C2). I do not think you casn make the connection because the are both one from the end, but obviously there will be a connection between the position of the two. But considering the sacrum occupies a primary curve (curves the same way as the thoracic spine), and the axis is part of the neck, which has a secondary curve (develops after birth), then their alignment will not be the same. but yes there is definitely a connection-but, I think that the connection is mainly one that is exploited for financial purposes-the human body is so complex, to reduce a therapy to working on the relationship between the neck and the sacrum? Who are they kidding? Pretty useful if the therapist is lacking in knowledge or skill, in my opinion. Reducing the hundreds of bones, joints, and muscles along with a hundred million nerves or so into two bones, a few joints, and a few muscles? I don't buy it. But it makes money.
the axis is a funny vertebra-no intervertebral disc here-the incredible flexibility of the neck is due to the joints of this vertebra and C1-try turning your head and nodding and you will see the movement is conducted mainly from these two vertebra. That's why these joints get over-used in yoga classes-it's easier to turn your head than it is to mobilize the thoracic spine, or stretch the hips and shoulders.
Take care
Nick
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Nick
Posted 2006-05-25 4:38 AM (#53802 - in reply to #53797)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Fifi,
I've been tricked-the top of the post is all scientific enquiry, and by the end of the page it's gone woo-woo. I can't have my name associated with woo-woo!
And by the way, the coccyx consists of four bones, so there really is no connection between the two because of their body position, at least.
I can't really offer any advice, not from this distance, over your neck. Obviously being as fit as you can be can make a big difference to pain levels. Perhaps stay away from mobilizing the neck with shoulderstand or any posture that pulls your head forwards. Shoulderstand may give temporary relief, but will engage you in a vicious cycle if you are not careful. did you read other posts, where i was talking about the idea of TUTALC (tongue up, teeth apart, lips closed). This is done to help activate the deep head and neck stabilizers (next time Glenda is in a car crash, she should press her tongue up!Stops you biting it off, as well)
Lots of women do suffer tenderness in the sacral area, which seems to increase with the menstrual cycle. A sore point is often referred to the two dimples on the ilac crest-press yuur thumbs in and you will probably see what I mean-interstingly, for the teachers among you, if you put your thumbs here, between them you will find the joint between L4-L5-this is what chiros call a 'bony landmark.'
My view is that women are at risk of sacro-iliac and low back pain by virtue of their wider pelvis and tendency to stand with a deeper lordosis than is ideal. Something about your mail suggests to me that you could do with binding this area ( the tongue should help with the neck-it's like the 'cervical tranversus abdominus'!). Let me get back to you this afternoon, but here is an exercise for you-this will likely demonstrate how weak your kinetic chain is, demonstrating that your yoga practice may not be doing what it should-if you cannot hold a kinetic chain in the plank position, then there is no way you will do it in a yoga class.
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/bestabexercises/a/core_test.htm

Take care
Nick
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*Fifi*
Posted 2006-05-25 9:14 AM (#53814 - in reply to #53628)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


Thanks, dude!

Shoulderstand is out? That's one of the poses I do everyday. Figures...

You won't be held accountable for any woo-woo.
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Debby
Posted 2006-05-25 10:12 AM (#53826 - in reply to #53802)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


Great posts Nick! I was waiting to see what you had to say.
What effect do you suppose hormones have on the skeletal system? (as I believe this was one factor related to pain.)

Deb
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Nick
Posted 2006-05-25 10:53 AM (#53836 - in reply to #53802)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi all,
The axis and atlas vertebrae are important for several reaons. They give attachment the sub-occipital muscles, and are often the target for a therapist who wants to get rid of tension headaches caused by tightness in the sub-occipital muscles. Again, pressing the tongue to the roof of the mouth may assist in releasing the tone of these muscles. This part of the body is also very important in directing our movement and posture. Try palpating these muscles just under the skull, and try looking to the left and right, without moving your head. You should be able to feel the muscles contract as the eyes move. There are nervous pathways from these muscles to the spinal cord which serve to turn the body in whichever direction you are trying to face. The abdominal muscles are not the basis of movement, as is claimed by pilates and core stability specialists-the sub-occipital muscles are! I find a very useful instruction to give the atlas and axis good posture is to liken the neck to a fountain of water, with the skull a football balanced on top of the jet-this won't give traction to your neck, but will perhaps help to de-compress the vertebra and allow the muscles to exercise and relax-over their whole range. I believe that one day we may find that if these muscles can go through their full range, then perhaps other joints in the body may also achieve better function-like Debby says, they may "mirror" the good function of these vital joints.
Neck muscles are interesting in that they are loaded with muscle spindles which detect stretch in the muscles, causing the muscle to contract when stretched-this explains partially the neck spasm seen after whiplash injuries. They will have an extremely high proportion of these spindles in comparison to, say, the gluteals. This is a direct consequence of the muscle spindle's ability to give us infomation about the position of a joint-proprioception-the perception of self. The muscle spindle helps us to carry out movements with greater accuracy and deftness. I seem to remember reading somewhere that there are many more nerve fibres telling us about our body position than there is coming from the eyes-in a sense, proprioceptive nerves are a kind of way of touching our joints to determine our position-they are often talked of as the sixth sense, by which we detect our internal environment.
With regards to the sacrum and sacro-iliac joints, yoga is a very difficult exercise to protect these joints. The answer is to use the two methods by which the joints are protected-force closure (using muscles surrouding the joint) and form closure (bringing the joint surfaces to alignment). The two sacro-iliac joints, when viewed from the side, form an upside-down l-shape. The sacrum is capable of two movements called nutation (where the top of the sacrum (the sacral base or promontery) tips fowards, and counter-nutation, where the sacral base is drawn back.
In order to lock the joint, you need to counter-nutate the sacrum, which is achieved by either pulling the sacral base back or tipping the pelvis forwards (anterior tilt). A combination of the two is often the answer. With a locked SI joint, loads that are developed by yoga postures are transmitted through the joint, rather than into it. This should help to ensure that when we practice yoga postures, they do not become a vehicle by which we open up a single joint (the SI), but instead are multi-joint exercises.
As an illustration, we were discussing supta-virasana in another thread-this posture is one that is particularly difficult for people with SI problems. This is because many people do not tilt the pelvis (posterior tilt), so that as they lie down, the sacrum is pushed into nutation, and the muscles are released which would otherwise serve to protect the joint. When the pelvis is rotated properly, then the lower spine is also not hyper-extended, which means the spine then acts to pull the sacrum into counter-nutation. In this way, both the muscles of the hips (gluteals, piriformis, etc), and the abdominal muscles, which serve to prevent hyper-extension in the lower back, help to protect the joint, as do the pelvic floor muscles, whiich pull the apex (remember the apex of the sacrum is at the bottom of the sacrum!confusing!) of the sacrum towards the pubic bone-counter-nutation!
For a more in-depth look at some of the concepts, look at Diane Lee's website where there are some fantastic articles on the sacrum-much of my thinking comes from her ground-breaking work on the rehab of this joint. Without the techniques that she uses, then I think that yoga will always be a dangerous place for this important joint.
Regarding SI pain related to the onset of menstruation, it is thought that hormones which are produced can effect the laxity of the ligaments surrouding joints, and that SI pain is caused by a softening of the ligaments so that the joint is not held so securely in place, causing pain. Pregnancy causes another flush of these hormones, so SI pain is quite 'popular' in pregnant women, unfortunately.
Steven's method of working on his SI joint illustrates the above concepts. I would not be surprised to find tight hip flexors, so that raising his legs and resting the back of the thigh means that shortened muscles do not pull the spine into extension, or the sacrum into nutation.
After lying on the back for a while, gravity will pul the sacrum back, perhaps, and the relief obtained may also come from the potential counter-nutation, passive though it is, of the sacrum. Obviously tight back muscles will also be stretched by the flattening of the spine, again helping to re-position the sacrum. The trouble with this exercise is, it is not active, and that you really want to lock into a cycle of engaging the muscles to protect the joint, rather than a life which is marked by the presence of pain, however seldom.
Take care
Nick
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Nick
Posted 2006-05-25 10:55 AM (#53837 - in reply to #53826)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Debby,
Sorry, I was just writing my last post and didnt see your question, but I think the answer is in there!
Nick
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Nick
Posted 2006-05-25 11:01 AM (#53838 - in reply to #53814)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Fifi,
Getting benefit from shoulderstand, depends how you do shoulderstand. I would have thought that for people with neck problems (which is everybody, whether they know or like it or not ), then not getting the body vertical would greatly reduce the potential for neck harm. As with all yoga postures, it's much easier to do this posture badly than it is to do it well, but the consequences of doing it badly of far higher impact than, say, not having the hands and feet in the right place.
Take care
Nick
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Orbilia
Posted 2006-05-25 11:33 AM (#53842 - in reply to #53802)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


Hi Nick,
this is very interesting. My SI issues appear where you say. When I throw a hip totally so to speak, I also get pain radiating up from under the buttock shelf diagonally into my right hip socket. This is usually accompanied by tingling in my right foot. Lesser attacks usually exhibit cramping of the muscles immediately above the curve of the buttocks.

I have been suspecting that a fall I had as a teenager may be the root cause of my SI issues. I slide down a flight of stairs, bumping my sacrum on the edge of each and every step. Luckily I didn't twist I think! I also have the slight sway back that runs in my family on my mother's side.

A recent Shaitsu massage told me that I have some very sore spots on my sacrum (you can come down of the ceiling now, Miss!). I think these correspond to the root ganglia as they are in pairs either side of the vertical midline. The massuese also recommended I have regular therepy massages but I'm finding it next to impossible to find either a Shiatsu or Sports Therapy expert locally (I probably don't know the right key word for searching as my town in certainly big enough to have many such people working).

If I add your information on sacral vetebrae fusion to my accident and sway back, things really eem to add up to the issues I have. Your opinion would be appreciated.

Fee




Nick - 2006-05-25 9:38 AM

A sore point is often referred to the two dimples on the ilac crest-press yuur thumbs in and you will probably see what I mean-interstingly, for the teachers among you, if you put your thumbs here, between them you will find the joint between L4-L5-this is what chiros call a 'bony landmark.'

My view is that women are at risk of sacro-iliac and low back pain by virtue of their wider pelvis and tendency to stand with a deeper lordosis than is ideal.

Take care
Nick


Edited by Orbilia 2006-05-25 11:40 AM
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Nick
Posted 2006-05-25 11:59 AM (#53844 - in reply to #53842)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum



20005001002525
Location: London, England
Hi Fiona,
the type of fall you had is often bad news for the coccyx ( met a woman the other day who had hers removed after a fall). The pain you describe is sciatic. It is difficult to recommend a course of action, other than being lucky enough to find a therapist who can sort you out-there should be an no win-no fee charge in operation, shouldn't there? A good exercise to improve sacral stability is to assume all-fours and put a foam roll on the spine. Adopt a neutral spine, so that the foam roll is about a cm or so away from the lumbar spine. You then stretch one leg back and raise it to horizontal. Then try raising one arm in front of you. Then progress to lifting one arm and the opposite leg. There are more progressions! The foam roll should stay put. This means that you will brace the core muscles to prevent movement of the spine. This will teach you how to move without throwing your sacrum first, but instead to emphasize the hips and shoulders. Over time, this will help make yoga safer, as you identify movements and postures that you associate with SI pain, and make you move in a way which optimizes the whole body performance along with optimizing this joint's structure and function.
You should find that the abdominal and pelvic floor can help to stabilize the spine, and multifidus and other deep back muscles will also activate to protect you. This should also help to understand how to use bandha in the postures of yoga, so that they are not a hindrance but a help.
Take care
Nick
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Orbilia
Posted 2006-05-25 12:34 PM (#53846 - in reply to #53844)
Subject: RE: Axis and Sacrum


Thanks Nick. I'll try the tip. My yoga teacher is aware and is excellent at ensuring that she tailors our class in a way that ensures all her old crocks get glued together again

Fortunately I've always had reasonably good posture so any correction shouldn't take too much effort on my part.

Fee
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