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Discussion of the Sutras
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tourist
Posted 2006-06-20 10:43 AM (#56281)
Subject: Discussion of the Sutras



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I have moved this question to the Philosophy section:

"Is there such a thing? The exercise is of itself wonderful but as I read the Sutras I long for open discussion of there meaning to different individuals. Juda"
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kulkarnn
Posted 2006-06-20 10:57 AM (#56286 - in reply to #56281)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


tourist - 2006-06-20 10:43 AM

I have moved this question to the Philosophy section:

"Is there such a thing? The exercise is of itself wonderful but as I read the Sutras I long for open discussion of there meaning to different individuals. Juda"


Why do you long for knowing meaning of them to different individuals?
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judamom
Posted 2006-06-20 1:53 PM (#56314 - in reply to #56281)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


Maybe my wording was lacking of clear meaning.......I get such enjoyment and mental stimulation from reading them and by now they are incorporated into my approach to life......I guess I long to share with some (willing) of simular studies. Example.....from "The Light of The Soul"--the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali......interpreted by Alice Bailey with the help of Djuwal Khul.....they always state 'ego/soul'. That is two aspects of 'self' that I have always kept separate with two entirely different meanings......I also read C.G.Jung. I have spent some months now in contemplation and experimentation attempting to enterchange the two terms......ego and soul. I was somewhat amazed at the expansion of my thinking when I did that. The two friends I discussed it with are not familier with the Sutras......I long for thoughts from another individual who is accustom to simply sharing thinking. I am not interested in someone's attempt to convince me their thoughts are truth and there is no other way of looking at it..........I get weary of that atitude because it is so prevelant. I totally enjoy thinking together to see what 2 minds come up with......I tire of my own thinking on occasion and certainly have not arrived at any absolute truths.....unless it be LOVE. Sincerely, Juda
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kulkarnn
Posted 2006-06-20 2:19 PM (#56319 - in reply to #56281)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


Thanks Juda. Now, I understand. That means you want to just share ideas and discuss understandings, etc.
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judamom
Posted 2006-06-20 5:05 PM (#56332 - in reply to #56281)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


YES! I would enjoy that very much........thank-you! Juda
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kulkarnn
Posted 2006-06-20 10:21 PM (#56354 - in reply to #56332)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


judamom - 2006-06-20 5:05 PM

YES! I would enjoy that very much........thank-you! Juda


Thanks Juda. Now, since you are open to discussion and also you have accepted the challenge indicated by Sister Tourist's response, I wish to ask/state the following.

What would be a problem with someone saying that there statement is Truth, and another statement which is NOT the same as their statement untruth. Because if two statements which are different from each other can be a) either both untrue b) one true and another untrue c) both partially true (which also means partially untrue!). But, there is NO chance are both are perfectly ture. Agreed?
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bstqltmkr
Posted 2006-06-20 10:38 PM (#56356 - in reply to #56281)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


I'm not familiar with the Sutras, I confess I get mind boggled. I had to respond to the question though, which I read as a riddle. If the statement was an opinion, than any number of statements could be true. Way too simple, I know. Please just exclude opinions and proceed and dig deeper.
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judamom
Posted 2006-06-20 10:56 PM (#56360 - in reply to #56356)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


Just what I was afraid of......your question disappeared....but let me try here. Logically, everything you said was agreed with BUT I am at a place where I find difficulty with TRUTH. What is truth? Your truth does not make my truth untrue for me, and visa versa. I honor your truth, for you, respectfully, because you have taken the time and effort to establish it, thus it has a meaning for you. I stopped thinking in terms of absolutes awhile back and now I am more stimulated by imagining the possibility of every senario possible......all possible truths for someone, somewhere. I would be most encouraged at dialog from an attitude of THOUGHTS rather than TRUTHS. If you are sure of a TRUTH, need it be discussed further?
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kulkarnn
Posted 2006-06-21 8:42 AM (#56380 - in reply to #56360)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


judamom - 2006-06-20 10:56 PM

Just what I was afraid of......your question disappeared....but let me try here. Logically, everything you said was agreed with BUT I am at a place where I find difficulty with TRUTH. What is truth? Your truth does not make my truth untrue for me, and visa versa. I honor your truth, for you, respectfully, because you have taken the time and effort to establish it, thus it has a meaning for you. I stopped thinking in terms of absolutes awhile back and now I am more stimulated by imagining the possibility of every senario possible......all possible truths for someone, somewhere. I would be most encouraged at dialog from an attitude of THOUGHTS rather than TRUTHS. If you are sure of a TRUTH, need it be discussed further?


Very good Juda. It seems that what you term as Truth in these lines is sort of Opinion or Ideal or Thought as you quoted elsewhere. However, if you use the word Truth, I find it problematic. Because, Truth can ONLY be one, I mean two contradictory things can not be true. (For example: In my opinion Michale Jackson is a boy. In, my sister's opinion, Michale Jackson is a girl. Now, both opinions are present, but they can not be Truth.) Now, I agree that if one has the Truth, one may not need any discussion to find that Truth. But, if one does not have Truth, one may need or choose to have discussion to find it or find a way to it. But, then when one is doing such a thing, then one can not assume that there are many truths, and one should NOT also assume that because then one shall never find that one truth. Agreed?
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SCThornley
Posted 2006-06-21 9:36 AM (#56386 - in reply to #56380)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


kulkarnn - 2006-06-21 8:42 AM

Because, Truth can ONLY be one, I mean two contradictory things can not be true. (For example: In my opinion Michale Jackson is a boy. In, my sister's opinion, Michale Jackson is a girl.


Thriller
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SCThornley
Posted 2006-06-21 9:37 AM (#56388 - in reply to #56281)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


on to the Sutras

wisdom of the acients is beautiful and timeless
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tourist
Posted 2006-06-21 10:33 AM (#56400 - in reply to #56360)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras



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Posts: 8442
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juda - to keep the message to which you are replying available to read while you are making a reply, hit the reply button in the top right corner of the message. Unfortunately you can't seem to keep a whole thread available as you reply, but this does work for one message. You just have to scroll down.
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judamom
Posted 2006-06-21 1:31 PM (#56421 - in reply to #56380)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


Okay, I can see that I have Truth and Absolutes linked together in my mind.....and I may need to separate them. The Dictionary says....conformity to knowledge, fact, actuality, or logic. I can easily understand that when put to solid thinking, in other words, referring to provable subject matter. I cannot so easily understand when the term truth is connected with spiritual issues because they are less provable. Now the definition of Absolute is (1) perfect in quality or nature, complete. (2) Not mixed: pure; unalterated. Another challenge I have, I no longer interpret things in a dualistic manner. I consider that I have integrated the duality of interpretation of reality and in the integrated place there are no longer judgements or opinions and that effects Truth in the Spiritual realm also. Do you see why I love discussion? As one attempts to present the most honest and clear communication to another it clearifies and expands 'thinking'. Why is Michael Jackson not male 'and' female-------aren't we all, actually, male and female?......then if we bring in reincarnation (which I consider strongly but am not attached to--all I know for absolute sureness is I AM here NOW. Visions of past lifes for myself and others could be mind playfulness as far as scientists would credit......and that IS a possiblility.) Please, your turn.....and thank-you for the opportunity to put thoughts down for sharing with others. I so encourage others to do the same. Sincerely Juda
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judamom
Posted 2006-06-21 1:35 PM (#56422 - in reply to #56356)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


bstqltmkr I hope you are still with us........I meant to welcome you before. Please join in again. Juda
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bstqltmkr
Posted 2006-06-21 2:05 PM (#56426 - in reply to #56281)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


Thanks Juda, I was thinking those same points on male and female. I was glad to see Neel agree that opposing opinions could be true. But really, isn't someone's personal truth just an opinion after all. I can also see things in my life that would support a belief in reincarnation, but am not attached to the idea. Thinking that we have to learn these same lessons over and over again makes it all seem sad and fruitless. The Christian concept of heaven holds no attraction for me either. I hope that after I finish here and go on into whatever waits for us, I can travel as some form of energy. Hopefully something that travels at least as fast as the speed of light, because some of those galaxies are million of light years away. I'm assuming that time will even be a factor.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2006-06-21 2:05 PM (#56427 - in reply to #56421)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


judamom - 2006-06-21 1:31 PM

Okay, I can see that I have Truth and Absolutes linked together in my mind.....and I may need to separate them. The Dictionary says....conformity to knowledge, fact, actuality, or logic. I can easily understand that when put to solid thinking, in other words, referring to provable subject matter. I cannot so easily understand when the term truth is connected with spiritual issues because they are less provable. Now the definition of Absolute is (1) perfect in quality or nature, complete. (2) Not mixed: pure; unalterated. Another challenge I have, I no longer interpret things in a dualistic manner. I consider that I have integrated the duality of interpretation of reality and in the integrated place there are no longer judgements or opinions and that effects Truth in the Spiritual realm also. Do you see why I love discussion? As one attempts to present the most honest and clear communication to another it clearifies and expands 'thinking'. Why is Michael Jackson not male 'and' female-------aren't we all, actually, male and female?......then if we bring in reincarnation (which I consider strongly but am not attached to--all I know for absolute sureness is I AM here NOW. Visions of past lifes for myself and others could be mind playfulness as far as scientists would credit......and that IS a possiblility.) Please, your turn.....and thank-you for the opportunity to put thoughts down for sharing with others. I so encourage others to do the same. Sincerely Juda


Very good Juda. There are many points in the above. Let us take one at a time. The spiritual truths are difficult to prove because : Material truths are proven by perceptions through 5 senses. And, spiritual truth is beyond the perception. But, truely speaking or spiritual speaking or philosophically speaking, material truths are False because material is constantly changing and one truth today is no more. For example, Newton's law of gravitation is materially true in one form, but it is not true in general. Thus, really speaking there is NO truth in material plane or in NON-spiritual plane. In spiritual plane, however there is ONLY Truth. The problem is that to get to the truth in Spiritual plane, one has to transcend the material plane. And, once you transcend the material plane, there is only one thing left that is Spirit, Spritiual Plane or Spiritual Truth. And that Truth is ONLY one.

sarwam khalwidam brahma... vedas

That truth is called brahman. All else is NOT truth.

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bstqltmkr
Posted 2006-06-21 2:13 PM (#56428 - in reply to #56281)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


There's only one truth and we can't know it until we're finished here. I can agree with that. I think we also know before we get here, but for some reason can't know while we are here.
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SCThornley
Posted 2006-06-21 2:17 PM (#56429 - in reply to #56427)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


kulkarnn - 2006-06-21 2:05 PM

Material truths are proven by perceptions through 5 senses. And, spiritual truth is beyond the perception. But, truely speaking or spiritual speaking or philosophically speaking, material truths are False because material is constantly changing and one truth today is no more. For example, Newton's law of gravitation is materially true in one form, but it is not true in general. Thus, really speaking there is NO truth in material plane or in NON-spiritual plane. In spiritual plane, however there is ONLY Truth. The problem is that to get to the truth in Spiritual plane, one has to transcend the material plane. And, once you transcend the material plane, there is only one thing left that is Spirit, Spritiual Plane or Spiritual Truth. And that Truth is ONLY one.

sarwam khalwidam brahma... vedas

That truth is called brahman. All else is NOT truth.



is spirit energy?

as we look further and further into 'matter' we only see energy {using things like electron microscope and now today's even more advanced scopes and lasers}.

it {"the energy field"} appears as different material things because of arrangement--but isn't that simply maya?

so,

is spirit energy or light?

if so then matter is light/energy just veiled in illusion/maya.

and if so then matter is spirit, it is simply perception that causes the duality/confusion/maya/illusion.

and if so-so-so then there is only truth
but then what is maya?
where is it generated?


Edited by SCThornley 2006-06-21 2:19 PM
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bstqltmkr
Posted 2006-06-21 2:29 PM (#56432 - in reply to #56281)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


Is that quantum physics?
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SCThornley
Posted 2006-06-21 2:58 PM (#56436 - in reply to #56432)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


bstqltmkr - 2006-06-21 2:29 PM

Is that quantum physics?


i don't know, i'm awaiting Neel to let me know-,-he'd know better than i
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judamom
Posted 2006-06-21 3:15 PM (#56442 - in reply to #56429)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


So have we concluded.....There IS truth.....and.....There is NO truth? We are getting into Zen now. When we really contemplate being ALL ONE----there is NO separation. Everything is part of Everything......all atoms (speaking largely) moving and spinning and changing constantly. It seems the catagorizing and separation is 'just how it works here on Planet Earth'. And what if we are constantly creating our worlds by our thoughts....which could be energy. We could be doing it individually and collectively. It would certianly cause one to care more what one thought....hmm? Indeed this is quantum physics thinking and it gets me excited like nothing else. I would like to ask why can't spirit and energy be one and the same or at least synthethized. And could not spirit, energy and light be all equally the same? kulkarnn......That truth is called brahman. All else is NOT truth......is only true to the Yogi/Hindu.........some other philosophies may not consider that a truth at all.......so is that an opinion, or a sectarial belief meaningless to say a Christian?...who have truths quite different? I honor that we are in a Yoga Blog and I even consider myself more Yogi than any other 'title' but I understand it is meaningless to many others......do I have MORE TRUTH? I tend not to think so, only an opinion of what works more for me than some other Philosophy. What a good roll we have going....................Juda
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bstqltmkr
Posted 2006-06-21 9:29 PM (#56465 - in reply to #56281)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


Did you watch What the Bleep Do we Know? I liked everything except the title. It made it seem jokey, and it was a serious subject. I would like to travel as light, but I think they've discovered faster energies, and so I guess I would go even faster if I could. Something a million light years away would still take a million years. I wonder what consciousness is like at that speed.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2006-06-21 11:11 PM (#56474 - in reply to #56281)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


Brother SCT:

All material gross or finer is divided into 5 elements:

Solids, Liquids, Gases, Energy, and Space. All these can be perceived one or more of 5 senses for sight, hearing, smell, touch and taste.

This also means that they can be described using these senses, such as that done in your post. Depending on the subtleness, a finer instrument is necessary. For example, to see egg of a chicken one can use humn eyes. But, to see egg of a human one may need a microscope. ETC.

Spirit is something beyond five senses. And, therefore, it can not also be described using them.

Spirit can only be experienced and then only its existence can be told. That is the Truth, or sat, sat meaning what exists permanently. All other is asat meaining it changes not existing permanently.
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kulkarnn
Posted 2006-06-21 11:21 PM (#56476 - in reply to #56442)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras


judamom - 2006-06-21 3:15 PM

So have we concluded.....There IS truth.....and.....There is NO truth? We are getting into Zen now. When we really contemplate being ALL ONE----there is NO separation. Everything is part of Everything......all atoms (speaking largely) moving and spinning and changing constantly. It seems the catagorizing and separation is 'just how it works here on Planet Earth'. And what if we are constantly creating our worlds by our thoughts....which could be energy. We could be doing it individually and collectively. It would certianly cause one to care more what one thought....hmm? Indeed this is quantum physics thinking and it gets me excited like nothing else. I would like to ask why can't spirit and energy be one and the same or at least synthethized. And could not spirit, energy and light be all equally the same? kulkarnn......That truth is called brahman. All else is NOT truth......is only true to the Yogi/Hindu.........some other philosophies may not consider that a truth at all.......so is that an opinion, or a sectarial belief meaningless to say a Christian?...who have truths quite different? I honor that we are in a Yoga Blog and I even consider myself more Yogi than any other 'title' but I understand it is meaningless to many others......do I have MORE TRUTH? I tend not to think so, only an opinion of what works more for me than some other Philosophy. What a good roll we have going....................Juda


Dear Real Truth, which is one. does not depend on a) opinion of one who believes in it and b) opinion of another who does not believe in it. and c) opinion of a third one who believes in something altogether different. Real truth only exists, and all other things depend on it. And, the purpose of Yoga is to practice to reach that truth. Once the truth is reached, no practice is needed, though one may do it for setting example to others. Whether one does a Hindu Practice or Muslim Practice or Christian practice, as long as they are reaching the Real Truth, not that of opinon, but of existence, they are doing the Yoga Practice. And, that is why Yoga is NOT anti-Hindu, anti-Muslim, anti_Christian, and at the same time it is NOT
pro-Hindu, pro-Muslim, pro-Christian. Real Truth, mentioned in Vedas is as follows:

ekam sat sadwipra bahuda wadanti... one truth is described by many in many ways.

But, truth is only one, which can not be fully described.

na iti na iti... vedas
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Cyndi
Posted 2006-06-22 12:28 AM (#56478 - in reply to #56428)
Subject: RE: Discussion of the Sutras



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bstqltmkr - 2006-06-21 2:13 PM

There's only one truth and we can't know it until we're finished here. I can agree with that. I think we also know before we get here, but for some reason can't know while we are here.


Actually that is not true. Who says that anyway?? What is up with this thinking that we cannot know now in this present life at this present moment? This is self-defeat. That kind of thinking is an illusion and what is preventing you from KNOWING the truth.

I totally agree with Neel.

Also, no matter what we try to do to manipulate the truth by altering it with opinions and relgions, whatever, the Truth is there and it is ONE. Most people have only experienced *glimpses* of the truth, but it gets overlooked due to ignorance and because they fear it and they fear themselves based on their belief's. It's very subtle and SIMPLE...humans have made the truth complicated with their science and manipulations of each other and things. Human nature is to look without for the answers, it is taught every day in schools when children are small....if only they could be taught to go within, that is where the truth lies, waiting to be revealed. Very simple.

Edited by Cyndi 2006-06-22 12:39 AM
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