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| It does seem weird to surgically remove a part of a man's body that contains a lot of pleasurable nerve endings.
Why don't they remove the "shoe" gene in women? |
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| I think the most compelling theory I've read on the origins of HIV scientifically speaking goes something like :
SIV is a related disease in Apes and Monkeys that seems to have originated in the Congo.
SIV mutated and jumped species to man to become HIV.
HIV has a higher fatality rate than SIV.
In general, new diseases show a higher fatality than long established ones as virulence tends to decrease over time as it's not in the virus' interests for the host body to die before it can replicate.
Another study I read recently suggested that there is some evidence to suggest HIV is decreasing in virulence which would support the above theory.
Whilst HIV is only sexually transmitted, SIV can be transmitted mucosally. That is, SIV may have been able to jump species via a monkey bite on a human rather than through sexual contact.
Fee
Edited by Orbilia 2006-07-13 12:29 PM
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| Very well said, Orbilia. You Brits have such an economy of words!
Orbilia, I'm forgetting this at the moment but maybe you will remember - was the book "Hot Zone" (or was is called Hot Spot?) based on a true story? I think it was. The moral of hte story is mutation ever stops - good or bad.
(Not to get too off topic but there's an interesting movie called Smilla's Sense of Snow with Gabriel Bryne (who we love) and Juliette Binoche (who we also love). I'm not going to ruin the movie for you so just take my recommendation).
(monkeys are gross!) |
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Location: London, England | Hi Fi,
I will see him, twice a year-not enough!!
Nick |
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Location: London, England | Hi all,
I read recently that they have traced the origin of HIV doen to a region just north of a river in the congo. They think it passed to man by the tradition of butchering the monkey on the spot-I wonder how long the virus stays alive after the death-it may be that this would not have happened if the dismembering of the corpse had occurred hours later?
Nick |
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| *Fifi* - 2006-07-13 12:20 PM
I don't think anyone would admit to having sex with an animal, but it is plausible. So is germ warfare. But, why would the evil scientists go through the trouble of inventing HIV/AIDS when there's already Ebola and Marfawn (<-- not spelled correctly)?
Or antrax or a dozen other things. And if they did, how would they keep it a secret?
For the record, I've got an interesting book at home called "Everything you know about sex is wrong". They have a rather long interview with a beastophile, and he seems quite pleased with himself. Personally I think it's not much removed from getting a blow up doll, but that's just me.
Personally I've yet to hear of a convincing medical explaination of the health benifts of cutting a perfectly health part of the body, leaving it less than it was. I've met few people who I thought could improve much on the human body, though everybody seems determined to try. |
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| Sounds like the Kinsey report.
So, the issue now is would you have your sons circumsized or not? I've heard the argument that men have their sons circumsized so they look like daddy and won't get teased in the locker room in high school. |
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| *Fifi* - 2006-07-13 1:14 PM
Sounds like the Kinsey report.
So, the issue now is would you have your sons circumsized or not? I've heard the argument that men have their sons circumsized so they look like daddy and won't get teased in the locker room in high school.
it's always promoted as cleaner and healthier when we've covered it with the OB/GYN before the birth of our children--only one of the OB/GYN doctors we dealt with had opinions other than this.
1 out of three
and that one still recomended it in the case of a male birth, she just didn't want to perform the procedure herself because she considered it unecessary as long as the young male child was taught how to properly clean himself
wife has had three OB/GYN doctors over the years
Edited by SCThornley 2006-07-13 1:23 PM
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| I'm blushing now ;)
I've not come across that book so I'm afraid I can't help your recall but if you remember, I'd like the details as it sounds an interesting read.
Fee
*Fifi* - 2006-07-13 5:46 PM
Very well said, Orbilia. You Brits have such an economy of words!
Orbilia, I'm forgetting this at the moment but maybe you will remember - was the book "Hot Zone" (or was is called Hot Spot?) based on a true story? I think it was. The moral of hte story is mutation ever stops - good or bad.
(Not to get too off topic but there's an interesting movie called Smilla's Sense of Snow with Gabriel Bryne (who we love) and Juliette Binoche (who we also love). I'm not going to ruin the movie for you so just take my recommendation).
(monkeys are gross!) |
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| SCThornley - 2006-07-13 1:21 PM
*Fifi* - 2006-07-13 1:14 PM
Sounds like the Kinsey report.
So, the issue now is would you have your sons circumsized or not? I've heard the argument that men have their sons circumsized so they look like daddy and won't get teased in the locker room in high school.
it's always promoted as cleaner and healthier when we've covered it with the OB/GYN before the birth of our children--only one of the OB/GYN doctors we dealt with had opinions other than this.
There are fads and superstitions in the medical community as well. For YEARS the accepted wisdom was that ulcers were caused by stress. In order to disprove this widely held, and deeply rooted myth the discover of the ulcer virus literally drank a vial full to disprove this theory. Cleaner and healthier are pretty vague terms that can really mean anything. |
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| i'm just relaying the message i've received from the OB/GYN community that i've dealt with.
But, if it will save lives--and this is what the article states the studies show, then, why not get behind the whole idea?
There is nothing superstitious about venerial diseases such as AIDS, HIV, syphyllis, or any other host of STDs that 'may' be reduced if the practice of circumcision becomes widespread.
My four children are host to the proof that circumcision has not impeded my abilities in any way shape or form.
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| SCThornley - 2006-07-14 9:30 AM
But, if it will save lives--and this is what the article states the studies show, then, why not get behind the whole idea?
At what cost? Not getting in that position in the first place is still a better approach, works 100% of the time. Venerial diseases have a very specific way of spreading, which IS fairly avoidable. I don't have to cut off my hand to avoid putting it into a meat grinder.
There is nothing superstitious about venerial diseases such as AIDS, HIV, syphyllis, or any other host of STDs that 'may' be reduced if the practice of circumcision becomes widespread.
Irrelevant. This is new info. What your doctor was telling you was based on old ( and I believe incorrect) information.
My four children are host to the proof that circumcision has not impeded my abilities in any way shape or form.
It's not an either or thing. It's a quality of life issue. I've got a cousin who's missing 3 fingers from his right hand. He's a great guy, really successful, but at the same time he's impared. I think it really bothers him, and the people who meet him for the first time.
Another good example is glasses. I can "see" without my contacts, and probably function, people have done so for years. However, that does not mean that my glasses/contacts/lasik aren't a HUGE improvement in my quality of life or ability to function.
Edited by GreenJello 2006-07-14 10:38 AM
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| wow, dude
U R out there--good luck with that
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| I read recently that in the wake of the riots in California, quite a few liquor stores had to close. As a result in that area, STD's were reduced. That would be way to simple of a solution though of course. As far as what to do with the forskin stockpile, I'm sure Orbilia could be more creative than napkin rings. Could you imagine the powers in the necklace she'll be wearing at Stonehenge for the next solstice celebration? Or maybe I'm thinking small at necklace. How big is the stockpile getting? |
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| SCThornley - 2006-07-14 10:42 AM
wow, dude
U R out there--good luck with that
Now, now, we're supposed to behave. Remember, no "abusive, threatening, or hateful language".
Edited by GreenJello 2006-07-14 12:11 PM
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Location: London, England | bstqltmkr - 2006-07-14 3:59 PM
I read recently that in the wake of the riots in California, quite a few liquor stores had to close. As a result in that area, STD's were reduced. That would be way to simple of a solution though of course. As far as what to do with the forskin stockpile, I'm sure Orbilia could be more creative than napkin rings. Could you imagine the powers in the necklace she'll be wearing at Stonehenge for the next solstice celebration? Or maybe I'm thinking small at necklace. How big is the stockpile getting?
We're up to twenty or so-some how Greenjello's contributing two, I didnt dare ask.  (sorry, greenjello ). One of the scariest things I read this year was that as a virus has the ability to mutate-rapidly-it may one day be able to exist within the body of a mosquito. When, or if, that happens, we are all in trouble. No going outside without full body suit! Scary stuff.
Nick |
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| GreenJello - 2006-07-14 12:10 PM
SCThornley - 2006-07-14 10:42 AM
wow, dude
U R out there--good luck with that
Now, now, we're supposed to behave. Remember, no "abusive, threatening, or hateful language".
i appolgize for my "abusive, threatening, or hateful language". i hope that in time you may heal from the traumatizing event, and like i said,"good luck with that".
you are very different than me, i would never have considered the foreskin as utilitarian as fingers, nor would i have considered inferring that the circumcised are impaired as someone who has lost fingers.
if it is a matter of health, then the posted article makes a clear case.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
 
| I am not often so surprised when two members clash! I am willing to bet you two would get along like the proverbial house on fire if you met.
I acutally find this topic extremely inflammatory and was debating removing it the moment I saw the first post. It is just far too emotional for many people. |
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| <p> tourist - 2006-07-14 6:43 PM I am not often so surprised when two members clash! I am willing to bet you two would get along like the proverbial house on fire if you met. I acutally find this topic extremely inflammatory and was debating removing it the moment I saw the first post. It is just far too emotional for many people.
it is suprising to say the least, tourist
it appears that there are some places i should not go, but i'm not holding animosity, but that might not be coming out the right way, ah well
que cera cera
Edited by SCThornley 2006-07-14 6:58 PM
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Location: London, England | Hi all,
The thing is, we're talking about being circumcised as though it gave the same protection as using a condom-and I don't think the report claims that. So could being circumcised as a means of preventing HIV infection actually be counter-productive, in that it gives a false sense of security? I would have thought that in Africa, removing the stigma of AIDS, removing the widespread rape (one every three seconds in South Africa), supplying free condoms and informing people(South African government officials recently dissed the use of expensive anti-retroviral drugs in favour of garlic).
And by the way, having sex with an animal is not like having sex with a blow-up doll-we should only have sex with some one who consents to it, and this means that children and animals are not sexual partners, but only victims of rape. people who have sex with either need to be physically mutilated and then hung up at the town square for the flys to feast on-sorry, i have strong views on this.
Anyway, lets not give ourselves or our children the impression thay they are protected by virtue of the fact that they are circumcised, or make woemn think that they are safe because their prospective partner is circumcised. I think that the situation in Africa is so different-a US delegation was laughed out of there once for suggesting abstinence as a means of preventing the spread of HIV-rape was so common that promoting abstinence was just not an option-truly horrific.
Nick
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| I completely agree with Nick about children and animals. Totally criminal and pervy.
And, I'm sure the hundreds (thousands?) of men who died of AIDS over the past few decades in San Francisco were probably circumsized.
I still challenge people to consider absistence. When I lived in SF I didn't engage in ANY sexual activity for fear of HIV. (Too many bi-curious men in the Bay Area, but that's another thread). I didn't even kiss anyone on the lips for fear of other STDs.
Absistence never hurt anybody.
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| considering the cultural shock that is very tactile, all the way across the Atlantic, it seems that the eventual answer to African located problems will have to be solved by indigenous Africans. No matter how horrific it is to sit and watch someone destroy themselves; if someone doesn't want to learn and change they won't.
But all of Africa is not a trainwreck, there are booming economies within the continent and, according to my financial advisors, some of the stable governments are promoting some of the best economic and social growth that exist for investment right now.
Unfortunately these rays of hope live juxtaposed to the most vile realities imaginable. |
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| Well, Africa is a big place. There might be pockets of stability but overall I think Africa IS a trainwreck. I don't think it's a trainwreck because of the AIDS epidemic but because of the overall thugery. Most of the countries are ruled by murderous thugs, like Robert Mugabe.
The Economist did an interesting article of the corruption in Africa in 2004. Apparently, the majority of international financial aid goes into the pockets of the top thugs. In fact, the article focused on the wives of the top thugs and their European shopping sprees. One wife has been banned from entering France because she only goes there for massive shopping sprees with money that does not belong to her.
It's depressing; tons of innocent people suffer as a result. I wish I could send the link but I don't have the article anymore.
But, it's interesting you sort of hint that abstinence is cultural, Steve. Maybe that's what you meant and I don't want to put words into your mouth.
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| i so wish that there was more good to say about the Nations of Africa.
there is so much wrong.
like so many others, i wish for some fix that would make the extravagantly resource rich continent enter the civilized era and become more disappointed each day when the news becomes more and more depressing.
i so hope that tomorrow will bring better news, until then i'll hope that what happened in Zimbabwe and so many other nations will not cause the good of the world to turn their backs and simply condemn the nations of Africa to their own fate.
there may still be some hope, and some of the nations of Africa are doing well, let's hope and pull for those pockets of stability.
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Location: London, England | Hi all,
The trouble with this thread is that the title immediately makes me think it's a jewish daily newspaper, and i have to keep on telling myself it's not funny 
Nick |
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Circumcision News
