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| and also, why do you Americans keep spelling realisation with a Z? 
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| The real point is it is "both" the goal and the process are one thing.
The process "life" and being one with it is the goal.
And when there is no separation between the process and the goal,
you arrive at the goal but can't escape the process "life". |
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I think we're splitting hairs
goal, process
wrong or right I believe that many of us see a goal as something that once it's reached something ends---so, this is a matter of semantics
self realization is something that continues, in my opinion, it isn't something that finalizes or ends something---so once you get there, you continue to be there, on going, it is life changing
It isn't something like building a device
or gaining some monetary level
or digging a hole
It's a new life once you're there, a different way of being and seeing, yes I'll agree that you are or you aren't but once you are you don't stop with the proceedings, you continue
so the word 'goal' doesn't quite describe it properly for how it is, this isn't a soccer match
maybe if the goal could be forever, with the announcer cheering
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
FOR INFINITY, but still, not quite
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| jonnie - 2007-09-19 9:06 AM
and also, why do you Americans keep spelling realisation with a Z?
because we choose to do so
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| Brother SCT:
May be a small part of this discussion is what the meaning of Self Realization is.
Self Realization, if it means realizing something, and then realize something more, and then more. Then, it is a process,of course. But, if Self Realization means, Realization of the Self, then it is a goal. Let me throw another light on it.
In the Yoga Philosophy, there is a formless reality called Self, which is only one entity. And, then there is material Form-ful reality called Prakruti. Prakruti emerges out of Self, and why this happens can NEVER be known to a mind. That is given. When, one is trying to realize Self, one starts realizing prakruti as well. And, that Prakruti realization is infinite and never ends.
But, when one realizes the Self, one realizes only one thing. And, that is the Goal.
Of course, if one does not believe in the existence of Self, then his self realization is different from self realization of another person. |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-09-19 9:53 AM
Brother SCT:
May be a small part of this discussion is what the meaning of Self Realization is.
Self Realization, if it means realizing something, and then realize something more, and then more. Then, it is a process,of course. But, if Self Realization means, Realization of the Self, then it is a goal. Let me throw another light on it.
In the Yoga Philosophy, there is a formless reality called Self, which is only one entity. And, then there is material Form-ful reality called Prakruti. Prakruti emerges out of Self, and why this happens can NEVER be known to a mind. That is given. When, one is trying to realize Self, one starts realizing prakruti as well. And, that Prakruti realization is infinite and never ends.
But, when one realizes the Self, one realizes only one thing. And, that is the Goal.
Of course, if one does not believe in the existence of Self, then his self realization is different from self realization of another person.
so, self is finite?
I don't know about that, even a neutron has it's own infinity---in my opinion it is a matter of perception, and how or where you perceive from is tantamount to how your bias is expressed
There certainly exists the traditional accepted knowledge and how to discuss the pre-defined terms in the realm of that knowledge thus far, yet, in my opinion, there is more beyond it
scholarly discipline that studies what is done so far is not all conclusive, there is yet more to create, forever, and lessons yet to be written
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| and forever, I am learning, continually, and from that I perceive as a student |
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| Dear Brother SCT:
Self is not finite. Actually, it is Infinite. But, it is formless. Therefore its Realization is not similar to the perception of a material entity, such as 'neutron' which has its own infinity which is material infinity in terms of qualities (guna). Yes, you are correct. As for Self Realization, one can not express it completely in words. That is called beyond expression, anirvachaneeya. However, when the realization takes place, that is a definite thing and beyond that one does not realize in terms of formless reality and beyond that one becomes disinterested in perception of material items, which is an infinite learning never to be complete.
And, I agree with you. That is the problem, the concept of Self Realization comes from the PAST, called aagama. If one wants to be a student of that concept, they have to assume or in other words BLINDLY BELIEVE in it including the methods to obtain it. When they do so, they realize and they become the past for others. pratyakshaanumaanaagamaaH pramaanaani... Patanjali Ch1.
In the infinite material pereception pratyaksha is the main tool, and aagamaa is the worst tool. In the Spirituality aagamaa is the main tool, and pratyaksha is minor.
As for studies conducted, all of them are generally in ther field of material science. |
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| kulkarnn - 2007-09-19 10:50 AM
As for Self Realization, one can not express it completely in words..
this is where we agree completely, and where these forums fail to bring the consensus that obviously exists
what may look like a disagreement is not
we agree |
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| jonnie - 2007-09-19 9:06 AM
and also, why do you Americans keep spelling realisation with a Z?
In America, that is considered the correct spelling; just like color instead of colour, labor instead of labour, theater instead of theatre etc etc etc |
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| jimg - 2007-09-20 8:03 PM
jonnie - 2007-09-19 9:06 AM
and also, why do you Americans keep spelling realisation with a Z?
In America, that is considered the correct spelling; just like color instead of colour, labor instead of labour, theater instead of theatre etc etc etc
Thanks Jim, though it was a (feeble) attempt to be funny.
Jonathon
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
 
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | The realisation vs. realization thing is a British/American thing.
My husband was schooled in the British schools of Nepal. He pronounces his Z's like a J or G would sound. It's sounds so wierd and I can't understand what he's saying half the time. We have so much fun with him learning American style language, |
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| Give us an exjamle pleaje.
Cyndi - 2007-09-19 2:03 PM
The realisation vs. realization thing is a British/American thing.
My husband was schooled in the British schools of Nepal. He pronounces his Z's like a J or G would sound. It's sounds so wierd and I can't understand what he's saying half the time. We have so much fun with him learning American style language, |
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| I don't care what self realisation is.
My point is any preconceived idea of something, no mater how scholarly, is a barrier to inquiry |
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| Phil - 2007-09-19 4:27 PM
I don't care what self realisation is.
My point is any preconceived idea of something, no mater how scholarly, is a barrier to inquiry
In the context of discovery I'd have to agree, in the context of a guided lesson, well that's something else entirely |
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 5098
Location: Somewhere in the Mountains of Western NC | kulkarnn - 2007-09-19 3:39 PM
Give us an exjamle pleaje.
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Expert Yogi
Posts: 8442
  
| SCThornley - 2007-09-19 1:39 PM
Phil - 2007-09-19 4:27 PM
I don't care what self realisation is.
My point is any preconceived idea of something, no mater how scholarly, is a barrier to inquiry
In the context of discovery I'd have to agree, in the context of a guided lesson, well that's something else entirely
SCT - I think you said something along the lines of what I was thinking - without a preconceived idea of something one is looking for, one might pick up a squirrel from the trees instead of an apple. OTOH, one might be so stuck on the idea that an apple is round and red, that a red bouncy ball would be distracting attention from the apple tree entirely.
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| Dear Phil: The problem in this approach is: an inquiry is meant for finding something. Otherwise, it is not an inquiry. If you do not care about Self Realization, fine. Then you shall not be inquiring on the Self. But, you shall be inquiring about something. And, you shall have something about that something in the mind. You can call it preconceived idea or whatever you like. Phil - 2007-09-19 4:27 PM
I don't care what self realisation is.
My point is any preconceived idea of something, no mater how scholarly, is a barrier to inquiry |
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| The point about not caring about what self Re' is, is not a negative statement about inquiry in to the self.
I'm trying to show you that you are putting up a wall to what the self is if you think you have any idea what the self is.
If you take anyone's, no mater how realised, idea of what the self is from there perspective.
You will confuse yourself trying to capture someone else's experience.
Yes the SELF may be one but the prism off each persons consciousness views it uniquely.
The idea is to not have a preconceived of what the self is.
The whole art of meditation is to de-condition the mind of concepts. All concepts of "mind" no mater how holy
"If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him"
Edited by Phil 2007-09-20 9:28 AM
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| Thanks for the response Phil. And where did the following concept come from? Yourself or a philosophy? I am not going to Kill Buddha. I am going to make him my friend. Actually, he already is.
Phil - 2007-09-20 9:26 AM
The whole art of meditation is to de-condition the mind of concepts. All concepts of "mind" no mater how holy
"If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him" |
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| It's a Zen quote Neel...
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| ...this explains it quite nicely:
http://www.ordinarymind.com/koan_killing.html
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| Thanks Jonniebhai:
To me, this very concept is a Conditioning of Mind to that concept. |
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| Yes, exactly.
In Zen, there are apparently different levels of realisation before a practitioner achieves full realisation.
In this the same in the Hindu/Yogic approach?
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| Thanks jonnie for sending Neel in the right direction
I feel it saying you have to kill any concepts of what you think the Buddha is.
Because your mind can't conceive the limitless of his being.
You have to put the mind aside to hear your hearts desire.
Any mind construction blocks the voice of the heart |
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Self realization?
