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Shocked and Confused Moderators: Moderators Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]	View previous thread :: View next thread
Yoga -> Yoga Teachers	Message format FlatThreadedNested

loli	Posted 2006-09-23 4:39 AM (#65156) Subject: Shocked and Confused
	Hello all, I went to a workshop at the weekend with a 'famous' yoga teacher and couldn't get on with stuff he was saying...I, and my friend (both of us teachers) didn't bother going to the second day (it cost us £145 for two days and we had to stay in a hotel in London too...we decided to make the most of the second day in London and go to Selfridges instead!) OK, I just thought I would tell you some of the stuff that I thought was 'off' and see if you agree or disagree... Firstly, the workshop was open to 'all levels' and there was a heavily pregnant woman in attendance too. He didn't once mention/caution or even ask if anyone had any injuries or health conditions during the workshop. He said that it was good to "stretch the ligaments" and to "put trauma on the joints"(hmmmm!!!!) When his wife was demonstrating a lunge position someone noticed that her knee was going over/beyond her toes and pointed it out. His answer was that it was " 'OK' as they wanted to traumatisse the knee joint" (!) He started the asana sequence with a very strong supine twist (legs crossed, knees bent, feet on floor and held if for 5 mins each side) then went straight to Bhujangasana with straight arms and told us to 'collapse' between the shoulders (he didn't call it Bhujangasana, he called it a name he had made up himself) and then into full Ustrasana. (No 'working into' the strong back bends, just jumping straight into the full posture....my thoughts were with the pregnant woman at this time...he never once gave her an adaptation or told anyone to take care) When he was asked by one of the 'audience' (it felt like we were at a show and he was on his soap-box) about how he would teach someone with a herniated disc his reply was, rather alarmingly- "just the same as anyone else. I would get them to do a forward bend, then a back bend, then a forward bend and a back bend" and "I don't know if it would work, I would like to think so, but it is a million dollar question" At this I was completely appalled...(Not that I would even teach someone if they had a herniated disc, I would send them to their Physiotherapist as I don't believe I am qualifed enough to teach them safely.) But I know that a good physio or indeed brilliant yoga teacher (as he is possibly thought to be by some poor unsuspecting souls) would firstly ascertain which way the disc had herniated either laterally, medially, posterially or anterially etc before doing ANYTHING. My friend and I also noticed that he could not look you in the eye when you asked a question, in fact, whilst being asked a question he did a stupid sort of 'monkey' dance...... He made a good point too, about how everyones skeleton is different and can be a deciding factor in how far one can perform a posture which, as a teacher, I have always been aware of the differences in peoples bodies. I also think that it could be all too easy to blame it on bone structure for some people too though, but this, perhaps, is a whole different debate.... He also said some strange stuff, like "tendons stretch more than ligaments due to their structure" Oh, and "the reason body builders can't touch their toes is because their joints are too compressed...".(nothing about the fact their muscles are tight!!!) OK, this is just a small sample of what went on during the workshop. A very small sample. I spoke to my student who is a physiotherapist and she was horrified, as I and my friend were. What do you guys think? I would love feedback on this. Was I right to think it was dangerous and wrong?
pamela	Posted 2006-09-23 8:02 AM (#65163 - in reply to #65156) Subject: RE: Shocked and Confused
	Hi Laura, Yikes! I guess this shows that being famous doesn't make you a good teacher. I can see so many things wrong based on my understanding - 1. Not asking about injuries and conditions and then leading into a challenging practice 2. Having a heavily pregnant woman on her belly or in a deep twist (hopefully she didn't practice) 3. A stong twist before warming up 4. Going straight from a twist to a backbend (would recommend a forward bend in between)... ...Ok, this is hopeless. I could continue, but I find something wrong with almost everything you mentioned. I hope you didn't hurt yourself This is truly amazing! Pamela McDowell Cairns Yoga free 7 Ancient Yoga Secrets Yoga Audio by email
	Posted 2006-09-23 8:07 AM (#65164 - in reply to #65156) Subject: RE: Shocked and Confused
	Laura--thanks for filling us in--concur with your assessment. I for one would appreciate knowing who to avoid them in the future.
tourist	Posted 2006-09-23 10:09 AM (#65169 - in reply to #65156) Subject: RE: Shocked and Confused
Expert Yogi Posts: 8442	laura - my first thought was "well, if this was an intermediate or advanced workshop, everyone should know how to deal with their own injuries etc." but it got a bit wild after that, didn't it?! Even "stretch the ligaments" and "trauma to the joints" can be said in context and for a certain effect but it clearly was not the case here. Herniated discs are not to be played with - period! That was just plain scary I agree with Bruce that it would be good for us to know who this is, but if you feel you don't want to reveal the name of this teacher, please PM those of us who would like to know. We need to be able to caution our students.
GreenJello	Posted 2006-09-23 12:27 PM (#65182 - in reply to #65156) Subject: RE: Shocked and Confused
	Sometimes people are famous because they're famous. A quick look in the tabloids at the supermarket will quickly reveal this. Do you really think most of those people got famous because they're good at something? With people who are famous for the sorts of jobs they do sometimes it's because they're good at it, and sometimes not. Sometimes they're not a really good yogi, but they make a good instructor. Sometimes they're a really really good yogi, and they make a poor instructor. Sometimes they're really bad at both, and just happened to know the editor of Yoga Journal.... I also think that you should name names. As long as everything you've reported is true to the best of your knowledge and ability, then its really no different from somebody writing a review for consumer reports or the local newspaper. If anything you've doing more damage by not warning people about the potential problems them might have with this instructor BEFORE they spend a sizable amount of money.
	Posted 2006-09-23 1:00 PM (#65184 - in reply to #65156) Subject: RE: Shocked and Confused
	I don't even know where to begin. First I'll bail them out. If this is what "they" teach then this is what "they" teach. For better or worse there are many "yoga teachers" for whom safety is not a primary function. It may be on the radar somewhere but it's not paramount. I personally find some of the reported actions to be less than safe and would not, myself, teach them to students. Nor would I support, either fiscally or energetically a teacher who did/does. The knee extending beyond the vertical plane of the ankle joint in a lunge (for example) isn't "wrong" per se it's just not in the best interest of connective tissue and it's NOT a "safety first" perspective. I do not know how this particular teacher in his/her particular style deals with limitations, injury, pregnancy et al. I have been trained relative to appropriate prenatal care within a yogic context but perhap he has not. Pattabhi Jois himself says NO practice when pregnant. But I see Ashtanga practitioners practicing well into their pregnancy. IN my training there is NO pressure on the belly when a woman is pregnant. But this may not be "their" take. It is also possible they spoke to this person aside from the group. It is also possible they had a sheet from registration with everyone's medical status. But I'd tend to believe otherwise based on the feedback about herniated disks. An appropriate answer (and yours was super about referring out) would be "where is the disk, how old is the injury, may I see your MRI, are you on any meds..." and then a direction for therapeutics. Herniated disks in the lumbar spine are dealt with much differently than ones in the cervical spine. I too would be upset by this sort of "yoga" and I doubt I'd have even finished the first day. So kudos to you for yogic patience. You are perfectly reasonable to question this sort of instruction - in my opinion.
loli	Posted 2006-09-23 5:11 PM (#65187 - in reply to #65156) Subject: RE: Shocked and Confused
	Thanks for your replies. I have to admit I am not one for confrontation. I wish I had had the guts to say something to him at the workshop actually. Anyway. I am not sure if I should 'out' him on this forum (actually, I thought that I would have been condemed for doing that, naming names etc Like my other friend who is a lawyer said, alot of it is subjective as to what is 'wrong' or 'right') I suppose there is a chance that he spoke to the pregnant lady before I arrived, but it looked like she was doing the same strong twists as everyone else. One of the twists was a strong twist with a backbend too. (I really felt it in my lumbar, nasty) I have done an extra module of training in yoga for pregnancy as I think it can be very beneficial for women to help to prepare for birth, but postures are modified and twists should only be gentle even when in the 2nd trimester. (The woman at the workshop was huge, definitely in the third trimester.) In the third trimester pregnant women have to be very careful because their body is producing the hormone 'relaxin' to soften up the ligaments ready for birth. The workshop wasn't just for intermediate/advanced, it was for all levels. But, perhaps I was a bit misleading when I said we started the asana sequence with a strong twist, we actually hugged out knees to our chests first, one knee at a time and then both together before twisting...(still not much of a warm up though, my friend and I were certainly not warmed up!) And after the strong twist with feet flat on floor legs crossed/bent they did do Halasana before going to the strong twisting backbend then the bhujangasana full posture or, actually as he put it, up-dog with the hips on the floor,..., (I didn't do Halasana as I have a dodgy 7th cervical verterbra and have to take care with that. Luckily I knew that. So I sat out of Halasana.) At one stage they got everyone to close their eyes and stand however they felt comfortable and relaxed...saying that was the best way to stand.... and then open your eyes and notice the position of our feet. Well, lots of people were standing with their feet turned out. A guy asked about this as he was flat footed and naturally wanted to stand with his feet turned out but knew it was better for his back to have his feet parallel and to actively draw up the inner/arches ankles and he wanted to hear what their opinion on this was but they were totally lost for words and couldn't really answer him! At this point I felt relieved that someone who sounded like they had some good backround training was questioning them too. I couldn't help wondering what they were tryiing to prove??? They didn't really explain what the whole exersise was about. There was LOADS of stuff he said and did that I was confused and shocked by. (I had my hand up for AGES trying to ask a question and he speaks so quickly he was changing the subject of my questions rapidly....I would have a question about something and be trying to ask about it when he would and move onto another thing that I wanted to question....) The guys behind me were laughing saying I should just shout to get his attention. The herniated disc part really did blow my mind.
loli	Posted 2006-09-23 5:20 PM (#65188 - in reply to #65156) Subject: RE: Shocked and Confused
	I just remembered something else that worried me! We were in Janu sirsasana, when he instructed us to tuck the tailbone under and put the head on the knee to put pressure on the lumbar!!! That goes against everything I have been taught about safely performing that posture In my training , that is one sure way to injure your back.
yogabear	Posted 2006-09-23 5:21 PM (#65189 - in reply to #65156) Subject: RE: Shocked and Confused
Regular Posts: 86 Location: Jacksonville, Florida	I would not out this person publicly, but there is certainly nothing wrong with PMing the name to those who ask for it. If you are a professionl instructor, I should think this would be the ethical thing to do. Edited by yogabear 2006-09-23 5:21 PM
	Posted 2006-09-23 6:55 PM (#65196 - in reply to #65156) Subject: RE: Shocked and Confused
	Laura, I think it's clear you are not spinning the info you are sharing and you've weighed it carefully. No one can explain the behavior (or the fame for that matter). I would be curious as to the style of yoga these folk purport to teach and/or be trained in. Whether it's yoga or not is not for me to say. But based on your tale it's clearly not instruction centered around human anotomical well being. Like others I would like to be PM'ed about this so I may avoid such instruction though it's possible said Yogi is UK only. (???) Edited by purnayoga 2006-09-23 6:56 PM
	Posted 2006-09-24 8:31 AM (#65217 - in reply to #65156) Subject: RE: Shocked and Confused
	i think the best action in this instance is to 1. do what you did--skip the next day--2. do not attend future classes with this person, and 3. do not recommend this person to someone else, and should someone ask your opinion, caution them from going. what purna said originally (his first post) is really important. it is appropriate to have philosophical differences in the way that yoga is taught, what is emphasized or not, and even ways of describing things. so, at one level, it's ok to 'live and let live.' i have a number of local and national teachers whom i know who do all sorts of things that i consider to be ridiculously wrong, potentially injurious, etc, but they're within the 'normal' bounds of yoga teaching, alignment, and what have you. it seems to me that this fellow is likely coming from an alignment school other than krishnamycharya which works heavily with modifications based on the anatomical needs of the individual students. I have found that other alignment schools--such as classical, etc--do not focus on alignment in the same way, and tells teachers-in-training and students to simply trust that their bodies will eventually unfold into the right positions. in my experience, i cannot say that this is incorrect. most people will not push themsleves into pain or injury, though they may get subtle injuries over time that will instruct them as to being more mindful about their bodies overall--and then they adjust their alignment to something that is more appropriate or correct. it's just a slower path, IMO, to achieving allignment than the krishnamycharya class. with this, the focus for the individual may be different. in this area and in NYC where i've practiced a style with limited or little focus on alignment, the teachers have asked us to focus on the breath or maintain a mental image of Shiva and offer our practice up to the Lord of Yoga. From there, we should not overly focus on alignment, but simply allow the grace of the body to flow through the movements over time. The breath and meditation practices will unfold the body on it's own, and by focusing on shiva, we are calling down right alignment for right healing in this way. when i watched other practitioners in this particular school--which i do not criticize because the alignment school is different as is the perspective and honestly i love the teacher and consider him my teacher--had a lot of misalignments from the krishnamycharya perpsective, even if i applied the correct alignment from the other school (which i know well enough to do--that is, taking a krishnamycharya/iyengar perspective utilizing a different alignment structure), and a lot of what i call "cheats" in certain postures that would generally be considered 'incorrect' from an anatomical standpoint. and yet, students were not being injuried by these movements (though repetitive motion would cause that), and throughout the classroom time, teachers and assistants did give adjustments to direct appropriate alignment (anatomicly), so it was being taught. and, when i asked my teacher about it, he told me to loosen up (which is good advice for me as i can be too rigid sometimes!) and also that students will always learn in their own ways--and while i was one who focused on alignment to avoid injury, others will focus on achieving the posture and will utilize whatever injuries come along to understand it--and no amount of him telling them 'no, not that alignment' is going to make them stop trying to achieve it improperly (something i've obsersved from my own students and i do hound them about alignment, modifications, using props--but you always have that one who has to try something well before their ready and then they injure themselves and ask you why. . .blah blah blah). so, there's wisdom in this. i'm not saying that this guy is within 'ok' realms or what not, but this may be an aspect of his perspective. i cannot say because i was not there, but i do take your concerns very seriously even about my own teaching (i mean, it's good to get criticism sometimes, you know?).
tourist	Posted 2006-09-24 11:25 AM (#65237 - in reply to #65217) Subject: RE: Shocked and Confused
Expert Yogi Posts: 8442	ZB - I was just talking with other teachers about the "safety net" yoga provides and how people wll not usually injure themselves. Back in the 60's many of my teachers taught from books - literally having the book open beside them and saying "ok, let's try this pose next" without any knowledge of alignment and no clue about sequencing and most of the students were fine. The big difference, as you alluded to, was that the poses were done slowly, gently and with multiple savasanas. Nowadays, the focus on flow and aerobic yoga will lead to RSI's, for sure. Many people coming to yoga now are looking for the serenity of mind that comes through pushing past physical boundaries (many, I suppose, due to running or other sport backgrounds) and not looking to the poses themselves to bring the change, as we did "back in the day."

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